Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Oh Clay, this topic really hits home with me.  In addition to my
    one-year-old daughter (too young for games) I have a 9.5-year-old
    step-son who, until recently, was impossible when it came to playing
    games.  He would sulk, pout, cry, and even cheat when it was clear
    that he was not going to win a game.  It's difficult to let him win
    when it's completely a game of chance like you mentioned, so it got
    to the point where he was such a drag to play with, that I just
    stopped.  When he asked me one day why I wouldn't play something
    with him, I told him honestly that games are meant to be fun, but
    they aren't with him because of his inability to accept defeat.
    We knew that letting him win all the time would only be contributing
    to the problem (and if he kept it up, he probably would have lost
    a lot of friends) but we stuck it out and let him get upset and finally
    one day, he just seemed to come around.  He still relapses from time
    to time, but he's getting better.  My husband seems to think that being
    involved in a lot of team sports has helped him.
    
    So... to answer your question, no, we don't *let* him win - he wins
    fair and square (which is most of the time, I might add) because he's
    got to know on his own where his strengths and weaknesses are.  But
    then, don't forget - he's 9 1/2.  With a much younger child though, 
    who couldn't possibly beat me at say, checkers, I would let that child
    win about 1/2 the time and lose 1/2 the time.  A child has to be able
    to accept loss - after all, life is full of it.
    
    - Kathryn
     

We're not at that stage yet.  5 month olds aren't much for games.

What my parents did with Scrabble, was that my Mom and I would play
against my sister and my Dad (or visa versa) with each parent helping
their partner find and learn new words while playing the game.

Dick

    Yes, helping them learn to lose gracefully is the real trick.  I found
    this was usually worst with one-on-one games.  When people either
    "paired up" (as in .2) or there were several players in the game, there
    was less onus at losing.  I think Aaron also got better from experience
    with computer games like Dark Castle or Crystal Quest where the human
    essentially always "loses," but tries to get as far as possible before
    "the end."
    
    		- Bruce
    

    Don't underestimate your child.  Neil was playing chess a couple
    of weeks ago with Steven, who's 6.5 and just learning the game,
    and nearly lost.
    
    In general, we've found that the desire to beat Mom and Dad fairly
    is a big motivator for the kids, and that they learn how to do it
    well by watching us play it well.  Sportsmanship -- how to lose
    gracefully -- not crying when you play aggressively and meanly and
    then someone's aggressive and mean to you (as for instance sending
    your piece back home in Sorry) -- how to plan a whole course of
    action -- how to handle disappointment -- and so on.  Bending the
    rules so they can win doesn't seem to teach them anything except
    to expect to win.  
    
    Sometimes we'll simplify the rules to take the kid's level of
    development into account.  But we explain what we're doing and
    then we all play by the revised rules.  For instance, in
    Pictionary, when it's Steven's turn to draw, he gets to ask the
    person who's not drawing what the word means, and if it's not
    something he knows how to draw, he gets to pick a new word.  This
    means we don't do All Play when he's drawing.  But we stick by the
    other rules about rolling, time limit, etc.  And it looks like he
    won't need even that much help for much longer.
    
    --bonnie

    My son is only 2.75 so board games aren't abundant in our house but in
    terms of things like little running races, tag, etc I don't let
    him "win" (with the exception of tag where I will let him "corner" me
    and then tag me but I make him work at it first). 
    
    When I was young we used to spend alot of time visiting my
    grandparents in Gloucester and if you knew Gloucester in the
    mid-to-late 60's there was NOTHING there. We always played cards and
    checkers. I remember when I first started learning checkers, I was
    allowed extra time to think of my move and was encouraged to do so so I
    didn't make a hasty move. Eventually the extra time allowance wasn't
    allowed. With cards (we played adult games like gin rummy, etc), same
    thing applied - given a little extra time and told to think first. My
    grandmother would often ask if we needed help and she would look at our
    cards and just make a couple suggestions. We had to make the final
    decision. Luckily, my grandparents had alot of patience so they were
    always keen on teaching us a new game.  
    
    I think it is more important to teach the things previously mentioned
    like learning strategy, playing for fun not just to win, etc. If you
    make winning common place for the children I would think they would
    expect to win all the time and wonder why others don't allow them to
    win like mom and dad do. Accepting defeat graciously is a very
    admirable characteristic to have, in my opinion.

When I was young, I had a child's Scrabble game.  It had words already on 
the board.  As you picked letters out of the bag, you could decide which 
word you wanted to place them on.  After all these years (must be 25 - 30 
years) I don't remember alot of details but it certainly made the contest 
between adult and child more equitable.  As a I recall, the reverse side 
could be used for traditional Scrabble.  The pieces were made out of 
cardboard like pieces to a jigsaw puzzle.

Meg

I'm speaking as someone who is still a kid (though an older one, now :-)) and
without children of my own...

The reason we play games is to have fun.  If someone is not having fun, there
is something wrong.  Losing all the time is not fun, and winning all the time
is not fun either (after a while, anyway :-)).  It means a lot more when you
win if you lose sometimes.  Besides, if you always win and someone else always
loses, they won't want to play with you after a while.  Plus, of course,
you want to learn/teach strategy, how to be a good loser, etc, etc.

There were a few good suggestions mentioned previously.  Alter the rules for
both players so they are more evenly matched (add more luck, or allow for more
talents that are common to both players to be used). Play in teams that are
more evenly matched.  Acknowledge that one player has the advantage and come
up with a way to even things up (different ways to score, frequency of turns,
time to take for a turn, etc) which can be changed as needed.  Have both
players work together on finding ways to make the game work best.

Sometimes the two of us end up playing together as a "team".  This often
happens when we want to play a game for more than two people, like Pictionary.
We don't keep score at all, we just take turns drawing pictures and guessing,
which is more fun than scoring, in my opinion.  Besides, I hate to lose, and
have been known to become very upset when someone steals the place I wanted
to put a word in Scrabble :-)

Jill

    We have been hit by this topic lately with my 3.5 yr old.  He would
    cry when he learned that he lost the game.  The problem is most 
    the games that we play are luck-based.  Therefore, it is
    difficult to let him win even we want to.   So far, we have done,
    is to talk to him before the game.  We told him that if he throws
    a tantrum after the game then we will not play any game for the
    rest of the day.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
    I wish this is just a phase.  Someday he will understand that
    games are for fun not just winning.
    
    Wendy   

Re: .8 by Wendy  (a month ago)

My daughter Kathleen (4.5) taught me another way to get around the
winning thing.  Memory is one of the few games that we both like to play,
but she would get too into who was winning and upset when it wasn't her.

Her idea: we put all the cards we win into one pile!  It's much more
fun now.  She's able to say "good job, Mom" when I get a hit, and mean 
it.  Sometimes she still wants to compete, but when she doesn't, we can
still play.

re: .9

Profound.  Every once in a while I see and idea in here that I like more and 
more as I think about it.  Your daughter is not only smart, but wise also.

Learning to cooperate to accomplish a goal is much more important than learing 
winning and losing.

I may try to play this way next time we play, but I doubt I'll succeed, 
because my kids will see through my motivation.  Both of my them typically 
whip my @$$ when we play "Memory."

Clay

    Just curious... how do you play Memory?

Memory is a game in which there are a number of pairs of tiles that have 
matching pictures on them.  All of the tiles are identical on the back.  You 
spread the tiles out, back (identical) side up.  The first player turns over 
two tiles.  If the pictures match, they keep the tiles and turn over two more. 
I the tiles don't match, they turn the tiles back over, and it's the other 
person's turn.  The skill part comes in when the first tile you turn over has 
been turned over before; you need to remember where it was.

The reason that I like the game so much is that my children were both 
competitive with me from the age of five or so; I didn't NEED to worry about 
"letting them win."  Now, as I mentioned, they beat me, fairly consistently.

The game can also be played with playing cards.  You can use (parts of) two 
decks (with matching backs) and match cards exactly, or use one deck and match 
black sevens or red kings, etc.  I like the packaged version better, because 
the pictures are easier for a kid to deal with.

Clay 

    Oh, like that old TV game Concentration!  I remember now!
    

    I generally refuse to let my son win.  Instead, we end up playing
    games for which neither of us has an advantage.  Usually these are
    games of pure chance.
    
    However, he can beat me at pick-up-sticks (Tobias is almost 6).
    And I find it a real delight when he beats me; he's also so happy
    when he does it.
    
    There are also some games where, if you know the strategy, you can
    never lose, such as tic-tac-toe.  In such games I try to teach him
    the strategy, so that the best I can do is tie, whereas he has a
    chance of winning.