Conference moira::parenting_v3

    You don't say in your note whether or not your child is as successful
    academically as he is with sports.  If he is used to being successful
    athletically, and is having trouble academically, it could be that
    his class clowning and his chip on his shoulder are ways to hide
    feelings of academic frustration.
    
    The teachers who are calling you to school have failed to get your
    son adequately involved with the excitement of learning - don't
    let them place all of your son's in-class behavior problems on your
    shoulders.  Get the teachers to discuss with you the ways they are
    making learning exciting and challenging for your child.
    
    My wife teaches learning disabled children.  One of the things she
    realized early is that many of her children were very afraid of
    math and hated the idea of doing math.  She turned this around by
    creeating problems based on the sports world.  Now she has her kids
    begging for more "sportsmath" problems.  So, it's possible to make
    subject matter exciting and palatable - but to do this sometimes
    requires extra effort on the part of the teacher - not the parent.
    
    Good luck.
    
    

    There are a couple of books that may help you ...
    
    One is P.E.T. ... Parent Effectiveness Training ...
    and the other, whose name speaks volumes and I regualrly get confused
    is "How to Talk so Your Children will Listen and How to Listen so Your
    Children will Talk"
    
    It sounds as if you may be taking to one another, but not listening
    to one another, and both of these books are great in that regard.
    They both promote the idea of "active listening" and the idea of
    natural and logical consequences.  They take the burden of the problem
    off your shoulders and puts it where it belongs ... on your son's as
    he should learn to take responsibility for his own actions.
    
    While you have been making many trips to visit teachers, you are the
    one shouldering the problem.  Your son doesn't see his behaviour as
    a problem because he has not really faced any consequences of it, so
    he's not shouldering the problem.
    
    There are regularly run P.E.T. courses for about 6 evenings that go
    with the course ... your Doctor's office may know or local community
    resource centre might know about one running in your area.
    
    Good luck ...
    
    Stuart

    
    - You mentioned that your son loves sports.  I'd suggest that you
    make an agreement with him that if he can't save his clowning and
    "cutting up" till he's out of school then he can't participate.
    
    to .1 - I don't think its fair to make a statement that his teachers
    part of the problem when the base noter mentioned right up front
    that this has been going on since 1st grade.  I don't know what
    grade level your wife teaches but I do know that class clowns can
    be very disruptive... I'm all for making learning interesting and
    fun but teaching 20 or 30 kids anything while keeping control is
    an art in itself.
    
    T
    

    I would do a couple things. I would question the teachers/guidance
    counselors as to what approach they are taking in remedying the
    situation on a daily basis. Do they send him to the pricipals office, 
    give him detention, etc. They may not have made it obvious to your son
    that he is disruptive. He might think that all the kids like his
    clowning when in reality most hate it. You might be able to decide on a
    whole game plan together - detention for him might mean he misses a
    practice or a game and a note home to you will let you know he isn't
    improving his antics and you can follow up on your end of the bargain. 
    
    I too would use the "no cooperation in the classroom, no participation
    on the field" approach. He definitely needs to know that life isn't
    just doing what you are want too (sports) but it is doing what you need
    to do to get along in the world and that includes having respect for
    other students, respect for the classroom and respect for himself. 
    
    At about 15, my step-son started something similar and he became the
    "big cheese". Prior to that he wasn't the "class clown". What actually
    happened was that he was bored with his classes and needed the same
    challenge the football field was providing in the classroom. Some
    honors classes helped get him back on track. Investigate his academic
    potential.
    
    On a totally different note - do you attend any of his games? With my
    step-son, when we started attending his games he became a lot more open
    about everything happening in his life at that time (i.e. girls, sex,
    school, future plans, etc). We live about 2 hours from where his games
    were played but we made every game we could and I think it helped. I
    think it subtly said "we are taking an active interest in you and we're
    starting with the thing that is closest to your heart".
    
    Let us know how things work out. 
    Andrea
    

    Based on what you've put here, and my own daughter's adolescence
    and what I've seen from her friends, I see a lot of possibilities.
    
    It's possible that the other kids in the class *do* like his
    clowning, and the positive reinforcement he gets from his peers
    for defying the teachers and doing what they'd all like to do if
    they had the nerve more than outweighs the negative consequences
    from his teachers. 
    
    It's possible that he's developed athlete's syndrome and thinks
    that because he plays football, nobody will dare flunk him or give
    him detention or anything that will keep him off the team.
    
    It's possible that he's lonely and afraid that all he's good for
    is sports, and if he's not good enough to be a professional
    athlete he might not see much future in anything.
    
    It's possible that he's acting out a desire for attention that he
    feels he can't get any other way.
    
    It's possible that either he never learned that behavior
    appropriate to the sporting arena isn't necesarily appropriate to
    the classroom, or that he as ADD or another learnign disorder that
    makes it difficult to change the behaviors.  Many ADD-type
    problems such as restlessness and physical motion are advantages,
    not problems, on the football field or basketball court.
    
    Obviously what you need to do is a lot different if he's being
    arrogant and superior than it is if he's got a longstanding
    learnign disability.
    
    Maybe your son's guidance counsellor could go between you to help
    find out waht the real cause of the problems is.
    
    --bonnie

    I'd like to thank you all for your input and support.
    
    The past 18 hours have been very difficult and I'm just exhausted.
    Let me explain.   When I arrived at the school, six teachers were
    sitting in an empty classroom waiting for me.  Their sitting
    arrangement and 'body language' was very uncomfortable.  I introduced
    myself to them and was NOT greeted with any 'warmth'.  Well to make
    a long story short, they shot me full of holes and left no room
    for patchwork.  I sympathized with their situation, reassured them
    that my son is 'busy' at home as well and then, once again, had
    to hang out my dirty laundry, in order to help them deal with this
    child.  Dirty laundry being that my son lived with his alcoholic,
    and physically abusive father for 5-1/2 years.  During that time I was 
    fighting with the court system to get those children out of that house. 
    That in itself is a VERY long and painful story.  
    
    Well the bottom line is, my son is NOT getting out of the bad habits
    that he learned as a very young child.  I'm now looking into many,
    what I hope to be, solutions for this young adolescent.
    
    We had a very long talk last night, and I realized how frustrated
    and tired he is of not having enough control to break this pattern
    of behavior.  We've been to therapy MANY times and I really don't
    think that's the answer right now.
    
    With regards to his sports.  Sports are his life.  It's his salvation.
    Its the one area where he truly excels and feels good about his
    ability.  I'd NEVER make him miss a practice as a punishment for
    bad school behavior.  I attend all his games, volunteer to work
    the canteen during home games, work at half-time with other parents
    providing the children with Gatorade (sp?) and oranges.  I also
    make absolutely sure that I get him to all his practices on time
    which requires that I leave work at 4:45 in order to have him at
    the field by 5:15.  I'm not trying to brag here about WHAT A GOOD
    MOM I AM, but, just trying to give you an accurate picture of my
    participation in his life.
    
    Again, thank you for your input.  I feel very drained today after
    talking with him at length last night, which was VERY informative.
    He fully realizes that he's different from the other children, and
    fully admitted that he's been like this for so long that, "Mom,
    I don't know how to change."  That statement along with a few others
    truly tore at my soul.
    
    I will keep you informed as to 'our' progress.
    
    Thank you all!
    
    

>    With regards to his sports.  Sports are his life.  It's his salvation.
>    Its the one area where he truly excels and feels good about his
>    ability.  I'd NEVER make him miss a practice as a punishment for
>    bad school behavior.  I attend all his games, volunteer to work
>    the canteen during home games, work at half-time with other parents
>    providing the children with Gatorade (sp?) and oranges.  I also
>    make absolutely sure that I get him to all his practices on time
>    which requires that I leave work at 4:45 in order to have him at
>    the field by 5:15.  I'm not trying to brag here about WHAT A GOOD
>    MOM I AM, but, just trying to give you an accurate picture of my
>    participation in his life.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I get the feeling you are trying to
make up for his past problems ... and more ... and that's not really helping
him.  It looks like you are trying to take on the roles of both mother and
father ... and quite frankly no-one can do it.

He has to learn to take some responsibility for his own behaviour.  The teachers
are putting it on your shoulders, and you are taking it all and not passing it
where it belongs onto his ...  He has to make sure he gets to practices and
games on time ... not you ...  He has to make sure he finds ways to behave in
class and take the heat for it ... from them and you ... you don't have to
defend him ... he should do that!

I have a cousin whose father dies when he was a baby, and his mother raised
him without re-marrying, and now, in his 20's he still has not learned to
take responsibility for his own actions, because mum is there to bail him out.

I don't mean this in a purely negatively critical way, and I hope you can see
the positive meanings in it, but don't you think it's time you looked a little
more closely at your over-active and protective role in his life and maybe
backed off a bit.

One of the things that came out of the counselling we had for my wife's
depressions was that you have to look after your own life and you can only
change your own life, and you have to want to change it.  To assist making
changes is someone elses life, all you can do is set conditions that make
them want to change.  Like poor behaviour ... no sports -- you want sports ...
you behave.

Good luck,

Stuart

    Re:  .7
    
    Stuart, I appreciate your input, however, I do not agree with some
    of your thoughts.  How can this 14 year old abused child to act
    like an adult.  You say its his responsibility to get to practice/games
    on time, how can he do that, he doesn't have a car or drive therefore,
    until such time that he does, it is MY issue.
    
    With regard to his sports; this is the only area of his life
    that he is comfortable and feels good about himself, if I start
    to take that away from him, then I'm stripping him of the one thing
    he loves.  I can't hit him that low and in my opinion I'll be opening
    a new avenue of hurt and pain.  He doesn't need more, he's had that.
    
    There are times that I am overprotective and maybe I do try and
    compensate for the pain he's had in the past.  However, I cannot
    expect him to 'change' when he readily admits he doesn't even know
    how.  His analogy to me was, "You know mom, it's like cracking your
    knuckles, you start doing it and then it becomes a bad habit and
    before you know it, you're doing it all the time and you don't even
    realize it!  I think that's what happened to me."  He's definitely
    a VERY bright child.  Does VERY well in all his classes, particularly
    math and science, but, he could do better, the behavior is getting
    in the way.
    
    Again, thank you for your input.
        

    Well, I think you half conquered the "battle" last night. If your son
    admitted that he doesn't know how to change, then he must down deep
    think that he has a "problem" that needs dealing with. You're very
    lucky in that respect. I think the "ball is in his court" and all you
    can really do is get him to understand his behavior for what it is and
    how it is affecting people's perception of him. A different kind of 
    counselling is needed not just "therapy" - don't know exactly what it 
    would be - that's where you should use his counsellors for reference.
    
    He's is "lucky to have a Mom like you". Too many parents wouldn't have
    been involved at all in his life. He must know you support him on and
    off the field now!!! He must understand "failures" are also a part of
    life and hiding behind a mask only makes it worse because you have
    years of "failures" to face rather than the one of the day!! 
    
    Being an "abused" child there have got to be hurts that were never
    expressed and hiding behind the class clown or jock image make denying
    it easier because these are the things that make him feel good about
    himself. 
    
    Keep talking and see what he wants to do about it. You might need many
    more nights of real heart-to-heart talks. At 14, he is still very
    dependent upon you physically but it think during puberty kids need
    parent more emotionally then they often admit!!!
    
    Best of luck!!!
    Andrea 

    I understand your frustration with therapy, but have any of your
    therapists been specialists in dealing with abused children and
    families?  Growing up with an alcoholic parent often leaves a
    particular pattern of behavior, and it can make a big difference
    if you have someone who knows those patterns and problems. 
    
    And I believe the Parent Effectiveness Training that another note
    mentioned is often very effective for this kind of discipline and
    behavior issues, since it emphasizes both empathy and firmness. 
    If you're religious, many churches offer a program for parents and
    children based on the Marriage Encounter principle.  I don't know
    if those are ever offered outside a church context. 
    
    --bonnie

    I'm the single mom of an adolescent son (now 17), and myself failed
    totally during my freshman year of high school.  Nowhere near the level
    of problems you reported, but a way of insight into where I'm coming
    from.
    
    Sounds to me like sports is the source of whatever level of self-esteem
    your son currently has.  You're right to continue to encourage him to
    play, and to support him in that endeavor.  *We all need to feel that
    we can succeed at SOMETHING while we're making difficult personal
    changes.*  (From one who felt like an abject failure, and couldn't
    improve in other areas until we found something *I* was good at.)
    
    My take as the parent is that the "I don't know how to change" response
    is the one you latch on to.  *Of Course* he doesn't, but you are there
    to help.  He's not going to do it all at once - that's ok, you'll love
    him anyway.  Celebrate each step forward, each time he starts to "act
    out" and recognizes it.  Each time he manages to stop *himself*, rather
    than through outside intervention.  Maybe have him keep track of what
    starts the problem, so he can avoid it.  The two of you may try lots of
    things, and not all of them will work.  That's OK.  Ask him for his
    suggestions - if he hasn't got any, set up a brain-storming session and
    make some of your suggestions totally off the wall.  Use his
    suggestions first.
    
    Best of luck to both of you.  None of raising kids is easy, but love
    can accomplish a lot.
    
    Alison

There are a couple of threads that Bonnie mentioned that I'd like to follow
up on.  Your son's problems may result from his abuse, or they may result
from a learning disability, or both.  He should be diagnosed.

If he hasn't made progress with previous therapists, he may need a specialist.
I can recommend a psychologist who works with LD children and adults in the
Greater Boston area.  Perhaps someone in the ACOA conference can recommend
someone who works well with children of alcoholics.

I'd also suggest you check out the learning disabilities conference.
It's fairly small and inactive, but it's got lots of relevant information.
In particular, note 2 has a reading list.  Press KP7 or SELECT to add it
to your notebook.

    
    
    My son, 13 1/2 and in 8th grade, is also class clown and has been for
    the last number of years.  It has clearly been much worse since he
    entered Junior High.  
    
    We have had many long talks about there is a time and a place for
    everything.   That school is just not the time nor the place.  He is
    also very bright but doesn't want to be.  He is not very socially adept
    so feels that by being a clown/cutup he will be liked.  He seems to
    have a very poor self image (ie..  Everyone says I am smart but really
    I am not.   No one likes me. All the teachers hate me....ect.. ect...)
    
    For my son I believe there are multiple reasons for his behavior.  He
    is also a child that was abused (by a babysitter) and his biological
    father has abandoned him again.   He is a bright child but being bright
    in Junior High is really a disadvantage (nerd and all of that).  His
    social skills are not that great and he is getting too big to sit in
    the school chairs comfortably for any length of time.  (IMHO school
    furniture are instruments of torture and not designed to be sat on for
    anything more then 15 mins.) 
    
    Lately my son, seems to be setting the all time record for how many 
    detentions one person can get in any school year.
    
    I have been to the school 2 times already this year and my husband has 
    been once.  Often when I talk to the school I truely wonder what it is
    they think I should be doing better.  I used to leave thinking boy have I
    really messed up as a parent.....  
    
    But recently I have changed tactics with the school and with my son
    that seems to be helpful.  I schedule meetings with the Guidance
    Consular, one of the teachers, and myself.  I run the meeting and go in
    check list of things I want to discuss.   (Recently it was over
    detentions)  If the teacher brings things up I am not willing or ready to
    discuss I remind them that the meeting was about x not y.  I listen to
    what the teacher has to say and then I share with them what my son has
    to say. 
    
    When I get home I tell my son what we talked about and let him respond
    to any accusations (if any).  Then we talk about how to change whatever
    it is to change.   I tell him that if he is not able to start changing
    the behavior then the next meeting will be with him, the teacher,
    myself, and the guidance dept so that we, together, can work out a
    solution. 
    
    I am rambling alot here but the bottom line is that I want my son to
    know that I am on his side.  That school personnel are not perfert but
    do have a job to do.   That together we can find a solution.  It has
    been getting a bit better as of late.  I am trying to treat him like
    the young adult that he is and enpower him to take charge of his life.
    
    Also it is my opinion that schools have a hard time treating young
    adults as young adults.
    
    Susan 

>    How can this 14 year old abused child to act
>    like an adult.  
    
    I wish the term adult behaviour didn't exist ....  Yes, there are
    behaviour patterns we associate as that of adults ... but the idea
    of behave your age, or behave like an adult is just too amorphous
    especially when we continuously see adults behaving like kids and
    vice versa.  What we have to do is to look at every piece of
    unacceptable behaviour and identify exactly why it is unacceptable.
    General terms like disruptive probably don't cut the mustard. More
    on this towards the end.
    
    >You say its his responsibility to get to practice/games
>    on time, how can he do that, he doesn't have a car or drive therefore,
>    until such time that he does, it is MY issue.
    
    The way you described this sounded like you have to ensure he has all
    his stuff like uniforms etc ready for him so he can go and be there on
    time.  It's great that you are his taxi and I hope he appreciates it,
    but I hope he is ready for you when you get home from work, and you
    don't have to organize him to be ready.  This is what I was driving at,
    not your physically taking him.
    
>    With regard to his sports; this is the only area of his life
>    that he is comfortable and feels good about himself, if I start
>    to take that away from him, then I'm stripping him of the one thing
>    he loves.  I can't hit him that low and in my opinion I'll be opening
>    a new avenue of hurt and pain.  He doesn't need more, he's had that.
    
    I'm not saying take it away from him, but it certainly should be used
    in moderation, as and when things start improving ... So for example,
    say his behaviour has improved, but slips .. then it would not be in
    the least unreasonable ...
    
>    expect him to 'change' when he readily admits he doesn't even know
>    how.  His analogy to me was, "You know mom, it's like cracking your
>    knuckles, you start doing it and then it becomes a bad habit and
>    before you know it, you're doing it all the time and you don't even
>    realize it!  I think that's what happened to me."  He's definitely
>    a VERY bright child.  Does VERY well in all his classes, particularly
>    math and science, but, he could do better, the behavior is getting
>    in the way.
    
    You can help him to change by providing him with an environment where
    it is in his interests to change.  Natural consequences is a good one
    ... in its simplest form ... you run into the street you get run
    over... answer don't run into the street.  Logical consequences ...
    you set a limit ... he breaks it ... you impose a predefined
    punishment.  For example ... You don't put your clothes in the laundry
    basket ... I won't look for them ... logical consequence is the clothes
    don't get washed.
    
    For habitual behaviours, maybe the answer could be found another way
    ... concentrate on a particular individual behaviour ... tell him to
    focus on identifying when he does 'x' ... what conditions lead up to
    him doing 'x'... Make it clear why 'x' is not an acceptable behaviour
    and if appropriate, under what conditions might doing 'x' be
    appropriate.  That way he becomes very conscious of the behaviour
    and may then take corrective steps.
    
    Say for example he swears in class ...  Maybe he swears when he does
    something incorrectly.   Identify why he swears ... probably
    frustration ... Is there something else he can do instead that won't
    cause a problem ... say for example stops and takes a deep breath
    or the like.
    
    This may require some co-operation on the teachers part but it's a
    positive strategy and they should appreciate that.  It won't be fast,
    but it should work.  I know it is in a way different, but one of my
    daughters had a real problem not pronouncing right, white, and light
    correctly.  They all came out as wite.  She could tell the difference
    when spoken to and had no hearing problem or sound discrimination
    problem because she could use the right sound in a different letter
    position, so we came to the conclusion it was an habitual problem.
    We found that she was able to tell when she used the wrong sound,
    and when she made herself conscious of it, within a couple of months 
    it was gone.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Stuart

    May I suggest that the first step to changing unacceptable behavior is
    to identify it.
    
    With the school officials, make a list of the individual behaviors that
    are disruptive.  Write each one a piece of paper, and tackle each one
    as an individual issue.  Work on one thing at a time.
    
    Might help him get a handle on an otherwise  overwhelming situation.
    
    Sue

I agree with the one step at a time approach.  It sounds like he really 
does want to change, but it is a habit and very difficult to do.  And this
fits with him saying that he doesn't know how. 

I agree with getting a list of specific behaviours, and finding out when
he does these things.  If he is willing to work on this then he can get
this licked.  If he is not willing to do the work then you will have to 
resort to some of the other methods mentioned here.

Once he finds when he is doing a particular behaviour, then he can start
figuring out why he does it.

One important thing for him to remember, especially if he suffers from a
self-esteem problem: if he is actively working on changing his behaviours, he
should not get down on himself for the times that he messes up.  Guilt is
non-productive here, since it can only add to the sense of failure and
hopelessness. He *can* change his behaviours.  It takes time and patience
(patience with himself), but if he really wants to succeed, he will. 

Hugs and support to both of you.

        Carol

    
    Thank you all so much for your kind input.  Your suggestions and
    insight have certainly helped me get a better perspective on this
    issue.  I guess I'm so close to it, I don't always see alternatives
    or ways or solving the situation.  This notesfile has been a TRUE
    help to me today.  
    
    Again thank you!
    
    Tired Mom.

re: .6, .8

Thank you for filling in detail.  I couldn't help thinking when I read .0 that 
there was a lot left out -- I couldn't believe that a kid could be like that 
from first grade on, with nothing having been done.  The fact that he does 
well in his courses does not completely rule out learning disabilities.  
How is his behavior _outside_ the classroom?

The only thing I can say is that the situation sounds to me far too complicated
to be resolved by any advice we can give.  It sounds to me far too complicated 
to be resolved by any non expert means.  I don't know why you say you don't 
think that therapy is the way to go right now.  Perhaps, as some have 
suggested, some other therapist or some other form of therapy or counseling 
than you've tried might help.  And it would be nice if there were some way 
that the academic success that he has had could be built upon, in the same way 
that the athletic success that he has had has been built upon.

And while you're worrying about what to do about/for your son, don't forget to 
take care of yourself.  Perhaps all you wanted in entering this note was 
support, not advice.  IF that's the case, I suggest that you clearly state 
that, and you won't have to spend so much of your time replying to 
well-intended, but unwanted, advice.

Clay

Just one brief thought - have you thought about asking him about ways 
that might encourage different behaviours, or discourage current ones? 
 In other words, discuss with him, NOT in the heat of a problem, just 
what kinds of punishments would be appropriate.  Kids can be quite 
creative in this way, and sometimes it keeps you from feeling like an 
ogre when the problem comes up again and you can say "We agreed before 
that when you did X the punishment would be Y."                      

Another idea, one that I believe may have already been mentioned, is 
to help him think through ways of changing behavior.  It is often not 
enough to say "Don't do that".  It is better when you can say what to 
do instead.  A simplistic example - my 7 year old daughter was 
constantly loosing her glasses in the house, taking them off and 
laying them down somewhere and having the place in an uproar when she 
couldn't remember where.  Telling her NOT TO LOOSE them did absolutely 
no good at all, nor did saying REMEMEBER WHERE YOU PUT THEM!  What 
fixed it was finding two acceptable places for leaving glasses, one 
upstairs and one down and telling her that when she took them off, 
they could only go in one of those two places.  She has not misplaced 
them since (she does however continue to loose everything else under 
the sun).

Take care - you can have a lot of hope because the two of you are 
talking and where there is communication there is potential.

Norma
     

    It sounds possible to me that the kid is bored out of his mind at
    school.  He's bright and grasps things quickly (otherwise he would
    NOT be getting good grades while causing this degree of distraction),
    and he has a high physical energy level.  Our public schools are not
    set up (in general) to challenge their students to be creative and
    innovative; they are designed to steer the average student through a
    pre-programmed regimen.
    
    If he feels the need to release his pent-up energy and is also bored
    with what's going on in class, he may be clowning in order to make
    his day bearable.  Looking on the bright side, he's at least in there
    pitching -- he hasn't given up and "numbed out".  The desire to *do
    something* about his situation will be useful to him as an adult (far
    more useful than meekly accepting whatever life hands him).  Now if
    you and he can just find a way to channel that desire into more
    positive actions...
    
    Good luck.  It sounds like you're a very caring and involved mom, and
    he sounds like a pretty neat kid.
    
    Beth

    I talked to a neighbor yesterday who has a daughter who's going
    through similar problems.  She said that one thing that had helped
    boost her daughter's self esteem was when she started working with
    younger children who needed help with academic problems -- she was
    tutoring reading for first graders through her school.  The
    daughter's friend volunteers at the hospital. 
    
    She said it made a world of difference when her daughter found out
    she could make a difference to someone else, that she wasn't just
    wasting her time and it wasn't all pointless and boring.
    
    --bonnie

re: .19

>It is often not 
>enough to say "Don't do that".  It is better when you can say what to 
>do instead.  

A simple, oft forgotten, but important principle.  Your subconscious often 
steers you toward what you are thinking about, even if you are thinking about 
it in a negative way.  I didn't learn to ride a bike until I was nearly 40.  
One time while I was learning, I was headed straight for a phone pole.  It 
would have been easy to avoid it, but I managed to steer right into it.  Why?
Because my attention was focused on it.  People who teach accident avoidance 
behavior tell you to focus on the PATH AROUND the obstacle, not on the 
obstacle itself.

re: .21

Wow, what a neat idea.  Not only for the self esteem boost, but for 
observation of his teaching style, which could give a clue to his learning 
style, which could give some insight into the possibility that his learning 
style does not mesh well with the teaching style he is experiencing in the 
classroom.  And especially in light of the fact that the fact that there are a 
LOT of kids who have difficulty with math, which is one of his strong subjects.

Clay

    While having no experience with teenagers, I still had to respond to
    this note.
    
    If your son has grown up being the "class clown", for lack of a better
    term, that very well may be the only (primary) way he knows HOW to
    relate to his peers.  That to me is quite significant.  He needs to
    learn other ways to relate to people and maintain a comfort level, his
    self esteem, be at ease.  Sports are often an emotional escape hatch,
    ceratinly worthy pursuits, but a great way of being with people without
    REALLY having to talk with them (about anything meaningful or self
    revealing).
    
    Anyway, I also thought .21 was a great idea.  Perhaps your son needs
    his horizons broadened a little.  Expose him to a few new challenges
    like helping kids younger than himself.  Working with elders in some
    capacity.  Just my thoughts on a situation I know little detail about! 
    Best of luck to the both of you.
    

    Now that you have gotten a good deal of input from other noters,
    you might like to take this information, return to the school, and
    have them do a core evaluation on your son, to better identify the
    source of his behavior patterns.
    
    There's a federal law (PL 94-142) that assures all children evaluated
    as seriously emotionally disturbed or learning disabled (which includes
    behaviors such as attention defecit disorders and hyperactivity)
    will be evaluated if requested by the parent.
    
    Your school district may be reluctant to act on your request for
    an evaluation, since your son has been through many years of school
    already and the law requires that the school identify, locate and
    evaluate children with special needs.  Sometimes, educator's pride can
    get in the way of allowing a a parent to get a quick and thorough 
    evaluation, but if you insist on it, you will get it.  The evaluation
    should cover your child's possible needs for psychological services.
    If you are unhappy about the evaluation, you are then entitled to
    get an independent evaluation, one that will be done for you at,
    for example, a medical center like Boston Children's Hospital.
    
    I'm currently taking training to be a Child Advocate and, just last
    week, read a case history of a child that is somewhat similar to
    yours.  The child, called Christoper C, was a high school student.
    He was into athletics and had many school friends, but his performance
    in academic classrooms was not the best.  The school system had
    failed to identify his special needs for years - partly because
    he got along with others and managed to get by academically.  The
    parents realized the child could do better, got an evaluation done
    and discovered Chris had a language based problem that caused him
    to have difficulties in the classroom.  (His difficulties were
    the exact opposite of acting out - Chris tended to just turn off
    in class and sit quietly.)  The evaluations showed Chris was
    eligible for special need help.  He eventually went to a residential school
    that specialized in his type of needs, completely at the expense
    of his local school system.
    
    To get this process started you need to poiunt out to the school
    their own long term recognition of his learning behavior problems
    and the need for a core evaluation.