Conference moira::parenting_v3

I lived in W.Germany a couple of years (though this was 12 years ago) so I'll
try and address some of your questions.  I'm certain that those who live on 
the other side of that great pond called the Atlantic maybe more up to date 
with this info...

> Has anyone taken their
> toddler to Europe?  Was it a good or bad experience?  Since they'll only be
> there for 4 or 5 days, do you think it would be better if my son stayed home?

IMO, considering the nature of the trip and the relatively short period of time
your son would be there (not to mention his age), I'd probably opt to have him
stay home.  I cannot think of a good reason for him to make this trip aside 
than your own personal reasons (you enjoy his company, you'd miss him, etc.).
On the flipside, he -could- be a problem considering the trip would be minimum
5-6 hour flight each way, jet lag, probability of being bored, etc.  Again,
strictly my opinion.  But, should you decide to bring him along...

> Do you need carseats for them?  Can you rent them?  Can I even rent a car
> there (I have a valid MA driver's license)???  What's the time zone difference?
> Was it hard for your little one to adjust?

If I were to travel overseas with my little one, I'd bring my own car seat.  I
don't recall if the measure passed or not but I seem to recall there was a 
recent push to have all airline passengers with small children purchase seats 
for them and, when necessary, use car seats (or equivalent?) to restrain them 
while flying for safety reasons.  This would be to your advantage, too, because
you will definitely need one in Europe.  It's the law (and they take it quite
seriously over there).  

What's the time difference?  5-6 hours (depending on if we are doing daylight
savings time or not).  Right now, I think it's 6 hours.

> What about food?  Both my guys are meat and potatos persons.  My husband is
> rather FUSSY! 

You probably won't have a problem (I never went to France so couldn't say for
sure) but I'd suggest your husband lighten up a bit and try something new.
When will be the next you'll have an opportunity to try out true French cuisine?

> Will my electrical appliances (curling irons, night-light, etc) work in 
> French outlets???

US appliances, in most circumstances, will not work overseas without a stepdown
transformer.  Most (if not all) European countries run off 220volt / 50hz power.
Unless your appliances are compatable with this, you may want to consider
looking around for a converter.  And, even if you have appliances that do work
at that power, you'll still have to find attachments to use their outlets (they
aren't the same as standard US outlets).  Consider, too, that the hotel you are
staying at may have these items on hand.  Perhaps you can call ahead and find
out.

> Me and my son don't have passports. I plan on getting them soon.  Once we get
> our pictures taken, can I get my son's passport for him (so he doesn't have to
> accompany me to Boston)???  We'll all need visas too.  Can I get them for my
> husband and son if I come with their passports? Or do they have to come in
> person?

I realize it's been a while but I don't understand why you'll need a passport
-and- a visa.  Perhaps this is something new?  At any rate, I would speculate
that you could get your son's passport without him being present considering
his age.  But I'd definitely call ahead.  Be sure you have all his inoculation 
papers.

> By the way, I'm 3 mos. pregnant and already starting to feel very anxious 
> about this trip.

Congratulations on your pregnancy and have a good trip.  Don't forget to enjoy
yourself while your there even if it is business!

-Andy

    One week is not very long--I'd recommend leaving the kid at home.
    
    Otherwise, you've got a long journey there with him, lots of extra
    hassles while he's there, and a long journey back.  And if he's only
    coming for a long weekend, he may actually spend more time travelling
    than visiting.
    
    You and your husband should look on this as a special time for the
    two of you in Paris.
    				-John Bishop

    
    I was in Paris in September 1987 (and I left BOTH my husband and my
    1 1/2 year old at home!)  ;-).  But, on a couple of questions:
    
    Your MA driver's license should suffice for renting a car, but you
    might not need to do so.  If you are in Paris proper, the Metro is
    far-reaching and can get you where you need to go.  Driving in Paris
    is comparable to driving in Boston except the cars are smaller and
    swerve more and the hand gestures are different!  I did it - and have
    some gray hairs to prove it. :-) :-)
    
    Visas were necessary in 1987, I don't know about now.  I got mine
    downtown at the JFK building in Government Center.  I remember people
    standing in lines with children but I don't know if it was actually
    necessary to bring them.
    
    
    It's a nice time to be there, similar weather to what we have here.
    The time difference is 6 hours but I don't know with daylight saving
    time coming how that will affect it.  
    
    
    -dorothy
    -dorothy
    You can get meat and potatoes type food there although chicken and
    french fries are more common.  

    We went to Paris in late August 1988.  Took both kids -- Kat was
    then 14 and Steven was 4.  He had a pretty good time but he's
    travelled a lot in his young life.  If your kid's not an
    experienced traveller, I think I'd leave him home. 
    
    I agree with .3 -- take the metro.  Or the train. The French rail
    system is incredibly good and easy to figure out, even if you
    don't speak much/any French.  French drivers are both homicidal
    and suicidal. 
    
    We got our visas through the mail since we knew quite a bit ahead
    of time that we were going to be there.  I don't remember exactly
    how long it took.  
    
    Contrary to popular belief, we found the French to be quite
    helpful and courteous, and patient with our attempts to
    communicate, although their manner was sometimes somewhat brisk.
    
    --bonnie

Well, I've made the decision, thanks in part to you noters, that it would
be best for Matt if he stayed home.  You're right, I wanted him to come for
SELFISH reasons (I'd miss him SOO much); he probably wouldn't get much out
of it and it would probably wreck havoc with his little internal clock.

I've heard the following things from people who've been there recently...
ARe these things true?:
	1. Children aren't allowed in restaurants
	2. Restaurants don't open until 7 P.M. (Being pregnant and used to
	   eating at 5:30 P.M., this one might KILL me! :-)
	3. Most people there don't speak English
	4. Most people there DO speak English
(What about hotel personnel? Can I expect them to speak English?)
	5. The people are rude and unfriendly
	6. the people are helpful and friendly.

Thanks!

� �ori �

P.S. I realize this is a tangent from a PARENTING topic.  Sorry.

    Many better restaurants don't open until later, but you can
    ***ALWAYS*** find a bistro that's open to get a drink and a
    sandwich.  I mean always, even three in the morning. 
    
    We took our kids everywhere.  It seemed a lot of Parisians did
    too.  Children are expected to behave like adults in restuarants,
    however. 
    
    Whether your hotel staff speaks French will depend on how many US
    and British tourists it caters to.
    
    Whether the French are friendly -- well, we suspect we got a lot
    of friendly treatment because we stayed at the Holiday Inn on the
    Place de la Republique, one of HI's renovated grand-old-hotels. 
    Holiday Inn service and modern plumbing combined with belle epoque
    ambience.  The Place de la Republique is an Alsatian area of
    Paris, and a lot of Germans go there.  The shopkeepers may not be
    too keen on US tourists, but they seemed to absolutely loathe the
    Germans.  So we got the benefit of being less hated. 
    
    I guess the thing is to remember that you're a guest in their
    country.  
    
    There's a Paris notes file that might be able to answer some more
    specific questions for you.
    
    --bonnie
    

We didn't have any children at the time so this was not a problem.

Our experience was that you could eat most any time.  Some restaurants might
open late but this was not a problem.

You can almost always find someone who speaks English.  You will generally get
better treatment if you at least attempt the French  8^{).  They really do
appreciate the fact that you realize that it is there country and that you
don't really expect them to speak your language.

The manners in Paris varied as they do in a big city in the US.  Some people
were very friendly and some were downright rude (kind of like New York  8^{).

When possible get advice from the locals that you are going to see.  They will
know where to eat, where to go and how to get there.

Have a good trip.  In a few years Matt will appreciate it more.

    
    I don't have first-hand experience, but I've heard from several
    people that the French can turn from sour to quite nice if you
    at least make a modest attempt to speak their native tongue.
    Bonnie can you confirm or deny?
    cj/

            
    I have found that to be true - they like to see an effort on
    your part to try to speak their language.  Sometimes the Parisians
    would pretend not to know any English to see if you would try to
    speak French.  Once you tried, their English picked up and they
    were quite cordial.  But the point here is they won't START speaking English
    to you.  They'll wait to see how you do in French and then inter-
    ject English if they see it will help you.  
    
    On the earlier question about hair dryers, etc. check your hair dryer.
    Many of them have the double switch for European voltage.  The outlets
    will definitely be different (I think France has two round hole
    outlets).  A place like Lechmere might carry the outlet converters.
    More expensive stores like Brookstone or Sharper Image definitely do.
    
    Paris is wonderful.  You'll have a great time!
    
    -dorothy  

re this item from 5:
>	2. Restaurants don't open until 7 P.M. (Being pregnant and used to
>	   eating at 5:30 P.M., this one might KILL me! :-)

Remember the time change!  When I travel, my stomach is always the last thing
to catch up (so to speak :) ).  When it's 7 pm in Paris, your stomach will
think it's only 2 pm or so (I don't know exactly what the time difference is).
You may find it helpful to stock up on nibble food when you first arrive
(croissants, cheese, all that sort of stuff - whatever appeals to you), so
that you can have at least something to eat when you're ravenous.  In the
middle trimester, that's pretty much all the time, probably.  I took a
non-business trip to England when I was about 4 months pregnant with my first
son, and I remember constantly saying "please can we stop at this pub (or tea
shop or fish-and-chips place or ...) and get something to eat now?!"

(There, I've diverted the topic to "Traveling while pregnant", so I can justify
this reply.)

	cheryl

    A year ago last weekend my husband, my two sons (then 2 1/2 and 6
    weeks), and I went on a two week "tour" of Europe.  We started in
    Amsterdam, trained it to Paris, then flew to London.  Many have said we
    were crazy (and perhaps we were :^) ), but it sure was one of the most
    memorable experiences in my life!
    
    Paris was wonderful and tops my list of favorite cities.  Our view was
    skewed given my older sons interests, but we still managed to see the
    highlights.  I found the people to be like those in most large cities -
    some friendly, others curt (and generally tired from the hectic city
    pace).  I brushed up on my high-school French and generally had no
    problems.  I also suggest going with the public transportation and
    taxis - its not safe to drive (IMO)!  The food was the BEST anywhere,
    and I'm still looking for pastries that are as good as those I've had
    there.
    
    Enjoy!

    Yes, I definitely formed the impression that attempting to speak
    French helped a lot.  Sometimes they'd correct me, and I'd try to
    repeat it better, and then we'd have a good time trying to talk. 
    (I did pretty well -- even managed to buy a lovely art vase that
    included having to make a cash withdrawal in francs against my
    VISA card.  Fortunately a lot of words, like VISA, are the same in
    both languages.)
    
    As for food while you're pregnant. . . 
    
    It seemed that most Parisians ate four meals a day --
    
    A light breakfast of cafe au lait or cocoa and a croissant or
    	brioche in the morning
    A moderately hearty lunch (salad, sandwich on baguette, and a
    	glass of wine or Coke is typical) at noon
    High tea, again cocoa and croissants or a fruit plate or a pastry 
    	or something like that at about four p.m.
    A large late dinner
    
    And there are bistros and, depending on the part of town, street
    vendors everywhere you go.  So keeping your stomach settled
    shouldn't be a problem.
    
    --bonnie

    I was in Cannes last fall and didn't have too much trouble at all.
    Actually, at the hotel it was kind of funny - I wanted to try to use my
    (rather limited) French for practice, and most of the folks at the
    hotel wanted to practice their English!  Since I was making a
    full-hearted effort to speak their language, most of the other folks I
    came in contact with must have had sympathy for me, and usually
    answered in English!
    
    By the way, you don't need a visa to go to France anymore, so that's
    one headache you don't have to worry about. 
    
    If you do decide to bring your child, try to book business class seats
    instead of economy.  It's more money but the seats are bigger and you'd
    probably  have an easier time getting the toddler to sleep in a bigger,
    more comfortable seat.  You can usually remove the arm rest and have a
    lounge size seat if there's no one next to you!  It's a loooong flight
    and you'll appreciate the ease.
    
    Conni

    Personally, I'd opt to leave your son home. It might just be too hectic
    for him, especially if you are planning on using that time to play
    tourist and cram a week of sight-seeing into 3 days. But only you know 
    if you WANT to leave him behind.
    
    If you do decide to take him, don't worry, he'll do fine. There are a
    couple other notes about flying with toddlers that give PLENTY of good
    advice. And he can always survive on croissants for 5 days!!!
    
    About Visas and passports, I don't think your son needs to be there
    since he is a minor and you will sign for him anyway but if you don't
    have all your forms filled out prior to going to BOston, your husband 
    will have to go down to sign the paperwork. I would call first to verify 
    this. I know that if you want a 1-hour passport (usually this lasts 3 
    hours), you have to bring your airplane ticket down with you, otherwise 
    they cannot verify that you need it immediately and will actualy mail it 
    to you. Ask about this as well. This is what I had to do when I got my
    initial passport for a flight in 5 days. If the offices open at 9:00 be
    there about 8:30 because the line does start forming. Do expect to have
    to wait while they process all your forms and then finally "create"
    your passport. 
    
    Have a good trip and congratulations.
    Andrea
                   

    
>   And he can always survive on croissants for 5 days!!!
    
    In fact, unless he's atypical, it will be difficult to get him to
    eat anything *but* croissangs for 5 days.
    
    --bonnie