Conference moira::parenting_v3

What a timely question!  (no pun intended)

I am taking another Practical Parenting class geared toward preschoolers.  Last
night's topic was Positive Discipline.  Timeouts were one method suggested, and
a sheet of suggested rules were given out.  From what I remember, the 
suggestions were:

-	One minute of time-out per year of age (3 yr old gets 3 minutes)
-	Put them in a boring place where they will not have fun (not their room)
-	DO NOT use the bathroom or lock them in a closet
-	Put them where you can see them, but do not maintain eye contact
-	Set a timer that you can both hear when it goes off
-	If they repeat the behavior after the timeout, send them right back
	to timeout
-	As soon after timeout as possible, find something to praise the child
	about, something positive to say

This was a subtopic under a topic called ACT:

	Acknowledge Feelings		"I can understand you are angry"

	Communicate Limits		"But in this house we do not throw
					 things"

	Two Choices			"You can either pick up your toy or
					  you will go to timeout"

    I found it best not to use the bedroom for timeout -- in our
    house, going to one's room to sulk, cry, or just be alone is
    always an option for dealing with an argument, so I don't want it
    seen as a punishment.
    
    What worked for Steven was a chair in the corner of the family
    room.  We could see him but still sort of ignore him.  It happens
    to be next to the window so he can see outside without really
    being able to see it. 
    
    Trying to get out of the chair too soon resulted in a time out of
    its own.  Generally two extra timeouts was enough to calm him
    down.
    
    In the grocery store, we found the only way that worked was to
    have one of us take him out to the car while the other one
    finished the shopping.  Since Steven has always loved the grocery
    store, this was punishment indeed and he was always calm before we
    got to the door.
    
    --bonnie

    I found the book at Evergreens in Sudbury, MA.  I read it cover to
    cover and really liked it.  It describes discipline methods for
    children ages 2 and up.
    
    For Kelsey, age 2 years 9 mos, the timeout method works *most* of the
    time.  However, regardless of the "method", the key to it working is
    CONSISTENCY!! 
    
    The guidelines are those similiar/same as in .2 and also:
    
    o 10 seconds/10 words or less
    o Set "Rules" for timeouts
    o 1st offense, no exceptions
    
    1)  10 seconds/10 words or less - When the misbehavior is recognized,
        the child should be brought to the timeout "chair" (or they should
        walk themselves) within 10 seconds - don't let the child "forget"
        what they did.  Communication with the child should be limited to
        10 words of less.  After timeout, the child should be asked why
        they had a timeout.  Example:
    
        Kelsey pushes her year-old brother down.
    
        Me: (picks her up and carries her to her "chair") Timeout for 
            pushing Phillip.  Two minutes (I set the timer and keep it
            in view)
        
            (I ignore her or go in another room)
    
            Timer goes off.  Kelsey usually gets up and finds me.
    
        Me: Why did you have a timeout?
    
        Kelsey:  I pushed Phillip.
    
        Me:  The rule is that you don't push Phillip.
    
    
    If I consistently practice timeouts, it prevents me from yelling at her
    and getting real mad!!  Two minutes allows me to cool off.  If she
    misbaves again - another timeout.
    
    2)  Set rules for timeouts - what misbavior will result in a timeout.
    
        For me, some of them are (yes-some may be extreme to you :-) )
    
         o  Taking toys away from Phillip without giving one in return
         o  Pushing/Hitting 
         o  Being sassy 
         o  Not listening/following requests - intentionally!! (usually
            after several attempts - inconsistant??)
         o  Dangerous acts - going in the street...
    
    The only timeouts do not work is when Kelsey is overtired/having a
    tantrum.  Nothing works then!!  Fortunately, these do not occur to
    often.
    
    3) First offense - "The book" suggests you do not say "Don't do that...
       if you do you will have a timeout".  In other words, don't use
       timeouts as a threat or an opportunity for another chance at
       repeating the misbehavior.  If a rule has previously been set (No 
       hitting), and the child misbehaves (Hits someone), the child
       receives an automatic timeout.  No warnings - no second chances.
       
    Enough said for now!!  The tough part is that Kelsey recognizes the
    "rules".  So when Phillip takes a toy away from her, she will say
    "Phillip has to have a timeout - he took my toy".  So I plop Phillip
    (1 year) into his highchair in the corner and go through the motions.
    "Don't take toys from Kelsey - Timeout 1 minute"  
    
    He just sits there, coos and drools and wonders why he gets to eat
    again !!  :-)
    
    L.
    
       
    
         
    
         
    

    I agree whole heartedly with the "time out rules" listed in the
    previous notes.  (Also took a course in "Child Behavior Management" at
    Children's Hospital in Boston.  Excellent course, BTW.)
    
    The main feature of a "time-out" should be that it's B-O-R-I-N-G.  So
    timing-out in a child's bedroom or moving a time-out place to different
    parts of the house is (to some extent) defeating the purpose.
    
    Timing-out away from home presents all sorts of challenges, since you
    have limited control of the boredom factor.  Time-out in a car could
    consist of pulling over and stopping the car.  This, however, is only
    effective when you're going somewhere that the child really wants to
    be.  Pulling over on a trip to the dentist is going to do nothing but
    reinforce the unwanted behavior.  Again, timing out a child in a
    supermarket by leaving the store is only successful if the child wants
    to be in the store in the first place.  If the child hates food
    shopping, then leaving the store is reinforcing the very behavior you'd
    like to eliminate.  
    
    Away from home you might try a little positive reinforcement.  For
    example - "If you stay in the cart while we're in the supermarket, you
    can get a candy on the way out."
    
    In the above example you need to ensure the following:
    	o Child understands the behavior.  Expected behavior should 
    	  be concrete and measureable.  (Staying in the cart.)
    	o Child must desire the reward.  (Need not be a material reward,
          can be something the child likes to do.)
    	o Reward should be given *after* behavior is completed.  (The
    	  "Here's some candy, now please stay in the cart" approach
          deprives the child of the motivation to exhibit the desired 
          behavior.)
    
    Time out works very well for Elizabeth (age 3) under certain
    conditions.  Positive reinforcement also works very well with her and 
    is easier to implement away from home.
    
    Again, if you're in the Boston area, the Child Behavior Management
    course at Children's Hospital is *extremely useful*.
    
    Good luck!
    LZP
    
    appropriate 

    I have found with Kate (2.3 yrs) that if I encourage her *good*
    behavior often, she tends not to misbehave... when we're in the grocery
    store, and she's sitting peacefully in the cart, I will tell her how
    proud I am that she's behaving.  When we're in a restaurant and she's
    sitting still (the infinite wait for the order to arrive), I will tell
    her again how proud I am of her behavior.  I do see a reaction from her
    on these occasions - she feels good about herself.
    
    Of course, this doesn't work ALL of the time, but if it stimulates
    appropriate behavior 1/2 of the time it's worth it to me!
                                                  

    I think there are lots of good approaches in these entries, including
    in .0.  But I think the original complaint is unrealistic:
    
    .0 > Our problem is that the way we do timeouts only last a few months
    .0 > and then we have to find a new way. 
    
    That's asking for a magic bullet, and a free lunch, too!  No single
    style of timeout can be expected to work unchanged over a wide age span
    (or a wide range of different kids).  Indeed, timeouts in general loose
    their usefulness after a certain age; it's really a technique for
    coping with behavior beyond a kid's conscious control.  You don't
    expect to be using timeouts to get your kid to write home and change
    his sheets every week after he goes off to college, do you?
    
    		- Bruce

    Thank you everyone, I wish this had been here last week when AJ almost
    got thrown out of nursery school (see my note on ADHD from 10/11) 
    What's been said here is almost verbatum what the ADHD psycologist
    suggested.  We had been giving AJ "3 chances" to get his act together,
    I guess that was our mistake.  We started that night enforcing the one
    time only rule, gawd did I feel like a heel, meany, bully whatever! 
    But he's behaved like an angel in preschool since then. (knock on wood)
    
    What I didn't see here that was suggested was after the timeout, when
    you ask the child what s/he did wrong, make sure you get an apology.
    (the psyc said it'll probably an empty half-hearted one) but get one.
    
    In our house we use the end of the hall.  We close the two bedroom
    doors on the side, and without the light on it's pretty dim.  We make
    him stand, not sit.  My reasoning on that is it might burn a tiny bit
    of excess energy standing.  On the highway we have always had an
    inflexible rule on getting out of the carseat or harness, As soon as I
    can safely pull over I will, replace his harness and it's probably the
    only time I will really hit him, and go on to explain that what he's
    done is very dangerous. (he knows that word well!)  He's only done it
    about a half dozen times, thankfully.  I *really* take exception to the
    recent commercial (for what I cant't remember-tires?) about a kid who excapes
    from his carseat to retrieve a teddy bear, and the mother pulls over
    and gives him a big hug, isn't this a reward for bad behavior?
    
    BTW, does anyone have a clue where I can get the book in the Worcester
    County area, sounds great!
    
    Lyn
    

    I don't understand making the child apologize if he isn't really
    sorry?  Isn't that encouraging him to lie?  Is an apology a matter
    of manners?
    	Linda

    It begins to get across the concept that s/he's supposed to be
    sorry.  It's an acknowledgement of culipability, even if it is at
    only the very surface level -- at least the child has acknowledged
    the violation of manners.  As the years go by and you consistently
    and gently explain why these things are wrong, the child will
    understand more and more the underlying reasons for the manners.
    
    --bonnie

<              <<< Note 423.6 by RDVAX::COLLIER "Bruce Collier" >>>
<     You don't
<    expect to be using timeouts to get your kid to write home and change
<    his sheets every week after he goes off to college, do you?
    
No, but he could telephone once in a while.  ;-)

Locking him in his room hasn't been a problem because it isn't boring enough,
rather because I don't like the effect on him - he really gets upset in a
very short time.  It stops the behaviour not because he has had time to
think about it, but because he is feeling so scared.

I'll try the idea of more timeouts for leaving the timeout area.  I've
tried it before a few times, and it didn't help, but I only tried a few
times, and maybe he'll get the picture now and it will work.  (Keeping
fingers crossed).

      Carol

    RE: .10 - One of the most useful points the psychologists mentioned in
    the behavior course I took was that individuals go through an
    "extinction curve" before a behavior vanishes.  What that means is that
    once you stop reinforcing a particular behavior, you're going to see a
    rise in the number of times that behavior is displayed.  If you
    continue to not reinforce the behavior, that behavior will then
    gradually extinguish.
    
    The point of the (rather wordy) above paragraph is that a parent really
    needs to hang in there with a particular type of behavior modification
    technique before results are noticed.  
    
    If you think about yourself...what do you do when you press RETURN and
    nothing happens on your terminal?  Most people will press the key
    repeatedly before they give up and try another strategy (like calling
    DIS, etc.).  That's an example of the "extinction curve".
    
    Hang in there!
    LZP
    
    

    Carol,
    
    When he is requiring a timeout for hitting, is this a full-fledged
    temper tantrum at the same time?  For just standard misbehavior, Carrie
    has timeouts on whatever couch is handy with reinforced timeouts if she
    leaves it.  However, she has a major short fuse, (I have no idea where
    she got that : )), and when she is ballistic, our only recourse is to
    set her on her bed and explain that she may not get out until she has
    her emotions back under control.  It took a few weeks, and a lot of
    trips back to the bed, before we got her to stay, but now she realizes
    that it's okay to be angry, sad whatever, but when behavior is out of
    control the bedroom is the place until you can discuss it.
    
    I realize that she's older than Evan by a few years, (she's 5), but
    consistency on the timeouts will work.
    
    Meg

lately, Sam's figured how to get up to the wall phone and lift
the handset off the phone hook but he doesn't listen on the
phone. He doesn't talk but he makes a lot of noise near where
the person is on the phone. That's when he gets his time out.

He now takes his punishment
standing up in the corner; he gets 3 minutes (1 min per year;
that makes it nearly an hour for me!). My nephew is 4 and his
timeouts are in the middle of the hallway, away from all his
toys.

cal

    I have been using the "Time Out" method for 2 years now, my daughter is
    almost 4 (will be on 12/1).
    
    I have never changed the method of our time out, and it has
    consistently worked all of the time.  One point that I would like to
    make here is that during time out, there is no talking to anyone and no
    one can talk to her.  This unfortunately does not work all of the time,
    to understand why, I need to elaborate a little.  My daughter and I live
    at home with my parents.  My parents do not believe in the time out
    method, unfortunately, maybe if they did I wouldn't have been slapped
    so much (wishful thinking, I was no perfect child :->>).  They tell me
    that a spank on the bum is good for them every once in a while.  I
    totally disagree with them, I have spanked her but I prefer time out.  
    They also do not think that talking things out with her will work, as my 
    father says "she is just a baby" (aaarrrggghhh!!!).  I am fighting an
    up hill battle with my parents, but not for, long I will be moving
    soon. At home it is hard to enforce time out, when my father takes it
    upon himself to "help out", his way of helping is to take her upstairs
    and have her play up there, which defeats the purpose of time out.
    
    I have tried to talk to him and ask him to stop but he is very touchy
    and if you don't word it correctly he will say something like "fine, I
    wont bother anymore" or " fine, I will leave you alone and stay
    upstairs"  I don't want them not to spend time with MK but they have to
    give me a break sometimes and let ME be the parent!
    
    When they do not interfere, the time out method does work well, I stay
    consistent; meaning no talking no playing etc...  She does cry
    sometimes, but I know that it is working when I ask here why she was in
    timeout and she explains it to me and we talk about it and she
    understands why it was wrong.
    
    CONSISTENCY, PATIENCE, PERSISTENCE are the majic words.
    
    stick with it!
    
    Julie

    I'm glad this note string turned up.  Timeouts are something Pat and I
    have been thinking about lately, since Michael's 9 months old and into
    EVERYTHING.  We haven't tried any sort of punishments yet; we just
    remove him from whatever he's after (about 100 times every 10 minutes
    it seems).  But it won't be long before he's old enough for timeouts.
    
    My concern is simply how do you get them to timeout?  Michael currently
    climbs (or tries to climb) out of his high chair, restaurant high
    chairs, his stroller, and anything else that even hints at a restraint. 
    So if we lead him to the couch and tell him he has to sit there for one
    minute and then refuse to make eye contact or talk to him, what do we
    do when he immediately gets off the couch and proceeds to start
    playing?
    
    Right now he is infinitely patient.  I have not been able to make him
    get tired of trying to get to something he can't have.  If he goes
    after the container of potpourri that's one of his favorite targets, we
    can remove him and give him a distraction, but he drops the distraction
    immediately and goes right back to the potpourri.  Over and over and
    over again, ad infinitum.  Won't the same behaviour occur with
    timeouts?  And how do we respond when he jumps up off the couch before
    the timeout ends, for the 15th time?
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  I have a feeling that parenting is going to get harder and
    harder.  (^:

    re: -1
    IMO Michael is much too young for timeouts.  He doesn't have the
    capacity to understand what they mean yet.  What I found works best for
    children that age, who are into exploring everything, is to make the area
    as safe as possible for him to explore.  Distraction usually works well
    too, but if Michael wants that pot pourri burner so badly then maybe
    you should put it away for a while.
    
    re: time-outs in general
    I just finished a course on Guiding the Behavior of Young Children and
    this course stressed the fact that time-outs definately have a purpose
    when they are implemented to help the child gain self-control.  They 
    should not be used for just any misbehavior.  This course stressed the 
    method of using logical consequences for disciplining a child.  For
    example:  "If you cannot play in the sandbox without throwing sand at the 
    other children then you simply cannot play in the sandbox right now." Or 
    "If you cannot play with Johnny without hitting him then you have to come 
    over here and play by yourself.  I cannot allow you to hit someone else. 
    Hitting is unacceptable."
    
    By doing things this way you are allowing the child to make choices
    about how he is going to behave.  He will come to realize that
    everything he does has a consequence to it (be it bad or good).  In
    this way, the child is moving toward self-control and behaving
    acceptably because he *wants* to and not necessarily to avoid punishment.
    It was felt that punishment in itself (especially young children) will
    foster sneakiness, i.e. I can do this as long as I don't get caught.
    
    There's so much more that we went into around setting well defined
    rules and consistency in enforcing those rules, that I could go on
    forever.  I'll stop for now though.
    
    Susan

RE:  .15 and .16

Steve, I agree that Michael is far too young.  Most of what I have seen and
read suggests starting timeouts at the age of 2, although they are pretty
effective on Kati (20 months) now. What you are doing (distraction and removal)
is exactly what is suggested for his age.

Susan, your message coincides with what we were learning.  Our class discussed
natural and logical consequences:

	Natural:					Logical:

	"If you go outside without your mittens,	"If you continue to
	your hands will get cold"			throw the ball in the
							house, I will
							take it away."

	"If you leave your bike outside, chances
	are it will be stolen"

With the natural consequences, their "punishment" will naturally happen.
However, if the parent does not WANT the natural consequence to happen (maybe
the child will get sick if his/her hands freeze, or maybe the parent doesn't
want to have to replace the bike), then the parent can dictate a logical
consequence, "If you leave your bike outside, you cannot ride it for 3 days."

I think the timeouts are effective for something immediate, and when you want
the child to reflect on what s/he did wrong.  Also, we have to use what we are
comfortable with, and make sure that our methods do not make us feel guilty
because the child will sense it and become insecure or confused.

Kristen

Funny, I've always thought of "Time Outs" a little differently.  I'll admit 
that my interpretation is a result of my personal interpretation, and not the 
result of any reading.

I think of a "time out" not so much as a form of discipline, but rather as a 
technique to allow an out-of-control child to get control.  So, for example, 
if one of my kids throws a tantrum, they may get "timed out" to their room, 
until they are capable of discussing the situation rationally.  From that 
respect, using their room as the "time out" place works well.  Their room is a 
place that they are safe, they can be angry, and that they can go to and talk 
to their pillow write in their diary, or whatever.  Now, my daughter goes to 
her room and slams the door when she is really angry and feeling out of 
control, then comes back downstairs, usually somewhat more rational -- which 
is exactly what I want her to do.

re: .17

Thanks so much for the discussion of "natural" and "logical".  The concept of 
"natural consequences" has always troubled me in the context of examples like 
going outside without a coat on or playing in the street -- or later on 
perhaps having unprotected sex or taking drugs.

Clay

Thank you.  He hit me again last night and I tried the multiple timeouts,
explaining clearly why, and it worked.  He had 4 or 5 timeouts total,
but he sat there very quietly for the last one (each less than a minute,
since I figured there would be multiples).

It was really interesting how he hit me.  :-}  He is apparently in a testing
stage.  I could tell he was angry at me, and I gave him the option to hit
a pillow.  He decided he would hit me instead.  He raised his hand and I told
him that if he hit me he would go in timeout (as usual).  He stood there with
his hand raised for a long time, just looking at me, trying to decide what
to do.  I repeated his options.  He stood there for a while longer, then
finally hit me.  He is hilarious!  Of course, I scooped him right up, saying
"timeout for hitting" and this time I explained that if he stood up or left
the stairs while in timeout that he would get another timeout.  As I said,
it took a little while, but it worked great.

<    When he is requiring a timeout for hitting, is this a full-fledged
<    temper tantrum at the same time?  

  No, typically he is just angry at me for not allowing him to play with
something (or taking it away because he misused it) and he hits me once to
let me know that he is angry.  He doesn't hit me hard anymore; it is more
just for show.

Thank you again for your suggestions.  I feel much more confident and 
comfortable now.

       Carol

    re .18
    Clay hit the nail right on the head. The intention of time out is not
    to discipline - it is really to separate potentially warring parties
    (you and your child) or to give an out-of-control child a chance to
    calm down. Once they've calmed down, THEN you can discuss the
    issue/take corrective action.
    
    

	Re: The purpose of Timeout.

	Depends on who you talk to.  Some very definately consider it a 
discipline method.  

Tracey

RE: .*

Thanks for the clarification on starting age for timeouts.  Michael's only 
9 months now, and I realized he's too young for such methods.  But I had 
somehow gotten it in my head that timeouts should start at around 1 year.  
I couldn't for the life of me see how Michael would mature enough in the 
next three months for such a technique to work with him.  Now that you've 
told me they start at more like age two, everything makes a lot more sense.  
For now we'll just keep on trying to divert him.  Thanks!

Steve

	Once again, it depends on who you talk to. :-)  The book I read 
suggested 18 months as a starting age.  

	I'd say play it by ear.  Definately 9 months is a bit young, but you 
may be surprised around one year to find that he is ready.  We started Katie
on timeouts when she was between 1 year and 13months.  At 17 months, we can 
send her to the corner and she'll stay there until told that she can get out.

	Katie was ready early for two reasons (in my opinion), 1) I don't know
what we did to deserve it but, she's a naturally easygoing and obedient kid 
2) She goes to a daycare center and started in the toddler room about the time 
that we started timeout with her at home.  They use timeouts too.  When she saw
the bigger kids go sit in the corner and stay there, I guess it never ocurred 
to her that you should do anything but that. :-)

Tracey


 

    I completely agree with Jane (.25).  You almost surely need not worry
    about undernourishment, and can only lose by allowing meals to develop
    into power struggles.  I think I remember that Penelope Leach has a very
    good discussion of this topic (as of almost all parenting issues, imo).
    
    I also agree with an earlier entry that it is a mistake to view time
    out as a form of _punishment_, and the daughter here clearly
    understands this, too.  Younger kids have a very hard time exercising
    consious control over their emotional state, whether it's anger,
    excitement, jealosy, whatever . . .  They often can't break out of a
    behavior pattern by being told to or even wishing to.  They need to be
    removed from the stimulous, irritant, whatever, for long enough to
    regain control.  Regaining the control is a major benefit for them (and
    whatever adult is trying to maintain it), and should be _rewarded_. 
    Continuing a time out by some clock rule ("one minute per year of age")
    after calm is restored makes it into a punishment, rather than a
    valuable tool.
    
    As my kids get older, the occasional "time out" (GO TO YOUR ROOM!!!
    RIGHT NOW!!!!) provides a thereputic opportunity to get parental temper
    under control, as well as providing a non-violent expression of anger.
    A useful dynamic, but not really a constructive form of punishment.
    
    		- Bruce

	Once again, I disagree with those who has said that time-out is not a 
discipline method.  It is and can be very effective when used correctly.

	Everything I've read, says use time-outs to stop behavior not 
try to get the kid to do something.  Thus a time-out for hitting or "talking 
back" is appropriate.  A time-out for not cleaning your room is worse than 
useless.  It helps them delay the very thing you want them to do.

	I agree with the others that you should back off on the food.  BELIEVE
ME, I know this is easier said than done.  Katie at 17 months has had her share
of the "orchid phase" (living on air) over the past few months.  It's really
tough to not want to "Try just one more bite", "Just taste this",  and so on.
I really have to bite my tongue at times. But really, she knows when she is 
hungry and when she isn't.  If she sleeps through the night that's a good 
indication that she really DOESN'T need to eat.  If you are concerned, talk to 
your pediatrician, but he/she will say what all of us have said.  I.e. Offer 
a variety of healthy foods and she eats, she eats.  If she doesn't, don't sweat 
it.

Tracey

I've created a new topic, 458, for the discussion of getting a 3-1/2 year
old child to eat; moved notes 423.24, .25, .27, and .29 there (and copied
.26 and .28).

	-Neil

    In re: .28
    
    Maybe we're closer than it seems.  Certainly timeout is to _change_ the
    behavior, basically by shortcircuiting it.  But that doesn't mean that
    the time out experience must be made unpleasant, that one is trying to
    make the child feel bad.  Indeed, successfully changing the behavior
    (ending the fighting, tantrum, whatever) really should be somewhat
    rewarded.  The time out may need to be boring, but it is different from
    punishment.
    
    		- Bruce

	Yes, you're right.  We are closer than first sounded.  

	re: not unpleasant.  I definately agree.  Time out should not be 
something that is *Actively* unpleasant.  Just BORRRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNGGGG!
	
	I have a really good book on timeouts and when to use them as 
well as when you should use alternate methods such as natural consequences, 
logical consequences, rewards, and so on.  

	If I remember tonight, I'll post a reply in the Book note (Note 17)
with the appropriate info.

Tracey

    I think I'm a little confused.  I always thought the point of
    discipline was to teach the child how to control him/herself. By
    impressing on them that certain behavior is unacceptable, you
    teach them to avoid the unacceptable behavior and to choose other
    more acceptable things to do -- ultimately, to be able to choose
    the right and stand by it in sometimes complicated moral and
    ethical situations.
    
    --bonnie

    I'm trying to sort out your point, .33, in your last paragraph.  Are
    you saying that anti-abortion = family-oriented viewpoints and spanking
    = non-family oriented?  I don't want to argue, just understand.
    
    This is really interesting because my husband and I believe
    that talking and "time-outs" are the ideal sort of discipline.  I,
    personally, never saw much wrong with a light spanking on the buns once
    in a while.  It never hurt me.  But, generally I don't go for it if
    talking to do the trick.  Depends on what, how, why the child did
    wrong...
    
    However, we'll be taking in a foster child and we're told, up front
    (even get a little booklet on it) that, under no circumstances, is the
    foster child to be spanked.  Many of these children came from violent
    homes and it does all sorts of obvious damage to the child.  We weren't
    surprised at the reason, but were surprised at the *requirement*.
    
    Just wondering what those of you who believe in spanking think about
    this stipulation.
    
    -d

<    Just wondering what those of you who believe in spanking think about
<    this stipulation.

Whoa!  If you folks want to talk about spanking, please do so in another
note string, a topic of its own.  This topic is on "time outs".  Also, I must
remind you that spanking is a topic that often gets parents on both sides of
the issue very heated. Please try to be moderate in your responses and remember
if you want to attach something, then attack the idea, not the person. 

       Carol, PARENTING co-mod

< Note 423.35 by CSC32::DUBOIS "The early bird gets worms" >

I took Carole's advice and started a new note. I removed responce
423.33.

cal

Since note 628.18 brought up timeouts, and how to restrain a child in
a timeout without getting too angry, I thought I would reply here what
I currently do with Evan.  Evan is now 4, and we have rarely had to use 
timeouts in the last year or more.

I, too, still have the problem of keeping my child in his timeout spot.
He will immediately get up just to defy me.  He doesn't go far, typically.
I have had to just "ignore" Evan during those times, and keep repeating the
timeouts (resetting the buzzer) until he finally sits in his spot for the
entire minute or two.  Each time I reset the buzzer I say, "Well, Evan's not
sitting on the stairs, so he has to do more timeout." 

Ignoring the child helps focus my energy on other things (like reading
the newspaper, or some other thing *for ME*) rather than just increasing
my anger toward the child.  It also has been effective for me since he *knows*
he is still "in timeout" and he doesn't like not getting attention.
It usually takes him several minutes to comply, but at least I'm fairly
calm through the process.

If I learn a better way, I'll certainly try it.  In the meantime, my method
is working pretty well.

       Carol

There was an article in Parenting magazine that claimed that timeouts were not 
really effective on children under the age of 5 years old.  The article 
specifically said that in order for the timeout to work, the child must comply
with the timeout rules "voluntarily" - that is they should not have to be
forcibly restrained in a high-chair or crib.  That sounded a bit old to me. I 
doubt I could get my two-yr-old to comply with an order to sit still in one 
place for two whole minutes, but I am wondering when other parents have found
this type of discipline to work.

We have been using a modification on the time-out concept for almost a year now.
But it hasn't been for discipline, per se, rather a chance to let Michelle
calm down.  On the rare occasions when Michelle is over-tired and a 
temper-tantrum escallates to the point where she is clearly not going to 
regain control of herself, I put her in her crib with all her comfort objects 
(some of which are available to her ONLY in the crib).  But this isn't really
a disciplinary action since she LOVES her crib and welcomes the oportunity to
literally bury herself under her beloved comfort objects.  She is allowed to
stay in the crib as long or as short as she likes.  In general she calms down
within a minute and askes to get up - but sometimes sehe will stay there long
enough to fall asleep.

So - I can see the need for a method to calm a young toddler.  But at what age
is actual disciplinary action appropriate?