Conference moira::parenting_v3

Steve, I know what you mean.  We've taken Kathrymne (age 3) to see
Jungle Book, Little Mermaid, and The Jetson's.  She does get bored
as I would expect any 3 year old to, but it seems like she's an
angel compared to some.  Lonny and I are certainly not ones to
subject other parents to her fidgiting - when it begins to get out
of hand, we take her out.

Sometimes I take her to the cheap afternoon show when there aren't
many people there, either.

I really don't know what can be done, but no doubt most of *us*
parents are raising our kids to be mindful of others in public
as well as in private.

Liz

ps, of course, the leaving of trash on the floor of the movie is
yet another subject!

    I'm afraid the problem is more than lack of manners out in public.
    A lot of kids I've seen lately just aren't being taught socially
    correct behavior.  Case in point: a 4 year old neighbor's boy gave me
    the finger because I wouldn't let my sons play with him (he seemed
    to forget the fact that the last time they played together, he and
    his sister threw coke at them, spit at them, etc).  My children
    (although not saints) would not DREAM of giving someone the finger-- of 
    course, they don't know what it means... But instead of sending the kid over
    to apologize (which is what I would have done if, God forbid, if the
    situation were reversed), the kid's father came over to apologize to my
    husband (who wasn't even there)-- and said the kid didn't know what it
    meant.  Maybe not, but he certainly can use it in context.  And the 
    fact that the *father* apologized instead of the boy means that the kid
    probably didn't learn that that is a bad thing to do.  And apologizing to
    someone's *spouse* for something instead of apologizing to the person
    involved is wrong, too.
    
    So you have kids not being taught basic lessons, parents who don't care
    or don't have the time...  When my sons started daycare, the director
    told me that if they made grammatical errors, to correct them on the
    spot.  I looked at her, confused, and said, "Of *course* I do."
    and she replied, "Well, I'm sad to say a lot of parents don't
    bother..."   So how do they learn?  At school?  
    
    I saw the best line in Family Circus recently... Billy had to draw 
    a picture of his favorite teacher, and he drew a picture of his
    parents.  The cartoonist then wrote something like, "A child learns
    more from his parents than from any teacher.  And those things that a 
    parent DOESN'T teach cannot be learned in any classroom..."
    
    Sorry if I've babbled, but some children's behavior that I've witnessed
    (or that has been inflicted on me) is mind-boggling to me.  I don't
    know what some of these parents can be thinking of...

    
    Steve,
    
    	Talk about living dangerously... we took the girls to see Fantasia
    on Saturday (the early matinee).  Yes, it was sold out!  We were early
    and got good seats and stuff.  My girls enjoyed the film.  My littlest
    one even liked it, although she did get somewhat tired toward the end. 
    I think they've cut out some of the original to make it shorter (at
    least I remember it being longer than it was).
    
    	Anyway, not to say that my girls are angels or anything, but they
    were good and I was proud of them.  With the exception of getting up to
    go to the bathroom, they stayed in their seats.  And they were quiet
    through the whole movie!!!  However, unfortunatly, we sat in front of a
    family who felt they were the only ones who paid for the film.  (I
    guess.  At least that was the attitude.)  Their little one (looked
    about 3) talked through the WHOLE MOVIE.  She asked one question after
    another.  One thing that REALLY BUGS ME is when they ask "what happens
    next?"  Watch the movie and see...  but nooooooo, the stupid parent
    starts explaining the next scene.
    
    	In a movie like "Fantasia" where at least 1/2 of the movie is 
    the music, quiet is really appreicated.
    
    	Also, as a side note, my oldest daughter (5th grade) is getting
    some music appreciation in school.  They've gone through several of the
    excerpts from "Fantasia" and talked about the music.  She really
    enjoyed seeing the whole movie and I think she appreciated the music a
    whole lot more than if they hadn't been talking about it in school.
    
    	Anyway, I'm with you Steve, if the kids can't sit still and be
    quiet through the movie, for the sake of the others in the theatre, get
    them the HE** out of there!
    
    
    						jean

    
    Maybe this should be taken as a note of warning:
    
    Go for the late evening show if you don't want lots of little kids
    running around, talking, etc.
    
    Last time I saw Fantasia, I was in high school.  I'd love to see it
    again, but I think Hannah is too young (3 years old) for it.  We'll
    probably get a babysitter and hit the late show.
    
    BTW--when was the last time it was released?  My husband insists it's
    released every few years.  I say it's hardly ever released.
    
    Bonnie
    
    
    
    

    Re: .0
    
    Dammit, Steve, you beat me to it? 8-) 8-) 8-)  Did you go to the
    same showing of Fantasia that I did? (4:15pm, Shopper's World)?
    Or is it the same problem all over?
    
    In any case, we ran into the same situation you did.  My wife and
    I (we have no kids) decided to see it primarily because we're both 
    classical music fans (Hell, I've PERFORMED about half the works used 
    in the film!) and out of general curiosity (having never seen it 
    before).
    
    Throughout the movie there was a CONSTANT low roar in the theater...
    crinkling candy wrappers, kids talking, running up and down the
    aisles, trooping in and out to visit the potty or the concession
    stand...  the noise level completely drowned out the music during
    the quiet passages.  Conspicuously absent was any attempt by the
    parents/caretakers to control this behavior.  (There was one group
    in the row in front of us consisting of a woman and three girls
    who must've been about 12, 8, and 5.  The 12-year-old was fine,
    but the other two were all over the place... and the woman did
    not do a THING about it.  She didn't move or say a word the entire
    time!).
    
    To top this all off:  about two minutes into the last movement
    of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, the film broke!  (at which point
    the audience let out a collective "Awwww...", and I was tempted to
    shout "L.S.C.!", but my wife held me back 8-) 8-) 8-) ).  Needless
    to say, any semblance of order pretty much vanished.  As the lights
    came up, there were kids all over the place (including a whole bunch
    STANDING UP AT THE SCREEN!!!!!!!  What did they hope to do... reach
    inside and get Mickey Mouse? )
    
    We decided to leave at that point because we figured the kids would
    NEVER fully pipe down even after they fixed the film... and I had
    decided early on that I wanted to see the movie some other time
    (probably at a late show when the crowd would be mostly adults).
    
    We went to dinner after that, and over dinner Tam and I started
    talking about the goings-on that afternoon... we came up with a
    number of observations, none of which excuse or fully explain what
    went on, but all of which must have contributed somewhat:
    
    - Basically, Fantasia is a fairly sophisticated art film for adults.
    Even though it's animated and has Mickey Mouse in one of its seg-
    ments, it's geared more towards adult attention spans than children's.
    Except for "The Rite of Spring", Stokowski uses complete, uncut
    classical works (As the second movement of the Pastoral Symphony
    started, I said to myself, "You mean they're going to play the WHOLE
    THING?"  more out of surprise than anything else.  Today, even a
    movie made for ADULTS might only use excerpts or only the first
    movement).  A child would probably be bored with it (as the narrator
    was making his comments on "program music" vs. "absolute music", I
    told myself, "Boy, the kids are going to be bored STIFF by this
    lecture!" [I found the whole thing interesting, but I remember what
    it was like to be a tyke...] ).
    
    - In 1940, the incredible (for the time) animation of the movie would
    probably be enough to keep the kiddies enthralled while the parents
    sat back and appreciated the music.  Today's kids, brought up on
    Nintendo and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, would probably find it
    old hat.  I found I really had to concentrate in order to appreciate
    both the subtlety of the animation AND the interplay of the animation
    and the music (I even caught a musical pun thrown in by the animators).
    Today's kids will probably sit there watching the wordless cartoons 
    with boring music in the background and wonder when the real action 
    was going to start!  (Tam noticed that the kids got real quiet during 
    the "Sorcerer's Apprentice" segment; not surprising, since it comes the 
    closest to what kids are used to watching today).
    
    - Back in 1940, the movie theater was considered to be an extension
    of the live theater, and normal concert manners applied.  Today,
    though, I think people see the movie theater as more of an extension
    of the living room TV, and as a result the kind of milling about
    that takes place in the average living room does not seem out of
    place to them at all.
    
    Now for a question:  as I grumble about how kids behave in public,
    I have to ask:  is it REALLY worse than when I was a kid, or do I
    just notice it more?  After all, peace and quiet are far less
    important to a 4-year-old than to a 30-year-old, and I remember
    being a kid and listening to old codgers talk about how horrible
    kids are these days and how much better they were when HE was a
    kid.  Am I just falling victim to the "old codger effect" (please,
    I'm only 28!), or is there a real trend here?
    
    --jim
    

    > BTW--when was the last time it was released?  My husband insists it's
    > released every few years.  I say it's hardly ever released.
    
    Well, I remember a big re-release about 10 years ago; the big thing
    was that they had re-mixed and Dolby-ized the soundtrack so it was
    supposed to be an "All New" Fantasia.  This time around it's
    back to basics, though.
    
    And yes, they do re-release it in approximately 10-year cycles.
    When we were at The Show From Hell (see .8), there was a group
    of young men behind us; before the movie one of them commented
    on how he was taken to see it when he was 4 and that was why he
    wanted to see it again.  Disney knows how to hook an audience!
    
    --jim
    

If you want to reply to the issue raised in .2 about correcting grammar, pleas 
do it in note 418.

Thanks,

Clay Satow
co-mod

    RE:.7
>     Last time I saw Fantasia, I was in high school.  I'd love to see it
>    again, but I think Hannah is too young (3 years old) for it.  We'll
>    probably get a babysitter and hit the late show.
    
    I took my 2.5 year old (who usually has a short attention span) and my
    5 year old. Both were glued to the screen. They LOVED it. Except for
    my 2.5 year old asking for Mickey Mouse, they didn't make a sound. I
    brought plenty of snacks though, and they did come in handy.
    
    Yes, it is a long movie and I think parents have to know their kids
    before they decided to take them. I went into the theatre with the
    attitude that as soon as my sons got restless we would leave. We never
    left, but the once full theatre was over half empty by the end of the
    show!
    
    I saw it Saturday afternoon at the Brandt in Nashua, NH. It was a bit
    noisy, but I'd say the real noisy ones were removed by parents. My
    biggest complaint was not the audience, but the quality of sound. There
    was a lot of crackling and you could always here the beep which signaled
    time to change the reels.
    
>    BTW--when was the last time it was released?  My husband insists it's
>    released every few years.  I say it's hardly ever released.
    
    I last saw it in 1983.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I think expecting a child to sit through a long movie and be a "perfect
    angel" is almost impossible. You have to expect some outbursts but I
    also EXPECT the parents/grandparents/guardian to "restrain" the child
    from constant narration, running up and down the isles, throwing
    popcorn, etc. There is a proper way to act at the movie theater. It is
    definitely the parent's fault for taking child to a movie where they
    have no interest (I've seen many children in R-rated movies because
    parents cannot be bothered to get a sitter). 
    
    I took my son to one movie so far. It was a 7:00pm showing (the only
    one they had and we needed a filler while my husband was scuba diving).
    He was a little over 2 then and I went with the full intention that we
    would last about 10 minutes. Well he did great with only one out-burst
    and of course it was during the "scary" scene when only a clock was
    ticking in the backround and he decided that he was going to loudly
    chime in with "tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock" until it
    stopped. He eventually fell asleep in my lap and I took him out because
    he was snoring and I thought it was rude to distrube the other people
    (about 20 in total - mostly kids). 
    
    The one thing I did notice was that the kids who were sitting and
    asking questions were the ones whose parents kept saying things like
    "see the mouse?", "where did they just go?", etc. It was the parents who
    were encouraging chatter!!! Movies are a place to watch and be told a
    story - not a question and answer period!!!
    
    I haven't taken our son back to a movie (6 months now). I think he
    could handle it namely because we rent him movies at home so his
    attention span it getting longer. I think every parent should start
    there to see a child's reaction to full-lenght movies. Plus it helps
    make the transition between fast action cartoons and long movies. My
    son sat through Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang last weekend (twice) and it is
    a 2.25 hour movie. He did lose interest in parts but it is way beyond
    the level of a 2-year old anyways. We're planning on trying him at the
    Little Medmaid soon (it has finally made it to England).
    
    Unfortunately, there will always be parents who let there kids run wild
    in the theaters. If it disturbs me, I would say something to the
    manager or ushers. If they are afraid to say something to the parents I
    would ask for my money back and try again another day. I don't see how
    any parent could sit and watch the movie while their kids were all over
    the place. If they want to see children's movies and just bring their
    kids as an excuse so they don't look funny, then they are the ones who
    need to grow up themselves. 
    
    Just my $.02
    Andrea      

    I'd like to try things the way I see it.  People complain that the kids
    won't stay still for a movie, say 2 or 3 hours.  Think about this, if
    kids would stay still for a long period of time, do you *really think*
    churches would offer nursery during their services for a period of only
    one hour?  They won't sit still for an hour of church, how can you
    expect them to sit still for a 2 to 3 hour movie.
    
    We've decided AJ can wait til Fantasia comes out on VCR, and we can get
    at sitter for a real late movie!
    
    Lyn
    

Lyn, the movies I've taken Kathryne to are about 1 hour 20 minutes.  I think
the problem here is not that after an hour or so things fall apart, but
that right from the start many kids are out of control.

    Matt at three years old is an ACTIVE KID.  I have never dared take him
    to a movie. I have envisioned him lasting perhaps.... 1.2 minutes
    before he drove everyone crazy running around etc.  Since the point
    of going to a movie is entertainment I hadn't envisioned Matts activity
    as appropriate behavior in a movie.  I havn't risked losing my 6 plus
    (what 3 bucks for a kid) = $ 9.00 to last 1.2 potential minutes at a
    movie before I had to take him out.  He doesn't sit through VCR movies
    at home.... perhaps he will last a half hour or so with a cartoon
    intense action type movie.... but if there were any slow parts forget
    it.  I can't imagine him sitting thorugh a movie for at least 4 to 5
    more years. I hope I am wrong.  I am encouraged by others experiences
    in this string.  Perhaps it IS possible Matt might sit through a movie
    sometime.  Jeff
    

    Jeff, I doubt that Matt's life will be permanently stunted if he
    never sees a movie in his life . . . but that's just my prejudice
    :) :)
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s.  This doesn't sound any different from, or worse than, the
    situation at kids' movies I used to take Kat to when she was a
    toddler, almost 15 years ago now.

    Re .15:
    
    > perhaps he will last a half hour or so with a cartoon intense 
    > action type movie.... but if there were any slow parts forget
    > it.
    
    To link this to the situation in the basenote:  if you're
    wondering whether to take your kids to "Fantasia", realize that
    although it is animated it's NOT a "cartoon intense action
    type movie".  Think of it as more of a symphony concert with
    visual accompaniment.  If you don't think your kids could sit
    through a symphony concert, then they probably won't be able
    to sit through Fantasia (in fact, Fantasia contains MORE works
    than are typically heard in a single symphony concert!).
    
    Just my 20 millibucks...
    
    --jim
    

Re: .13

Lyn, my son stayed quiet for the whole two hours.  That doesn't mean he
sat absolutely still, sometimes he climbed into my lap and watched from there,
but his motion and infrequent comments and questions bothered no one else
in the theatre.


I agree with some others, it's the parents that are really to blame here.
I did hear many parents encourage their kids to talk and ask questions
in loud voices.  It's these people who should just stay at home with the
VCR.  And it's why I entered this note.

				Steve