Conference moira::parenting_v3

    .0 does not say where this is located, but does say that the provider
    is unlicensed.  If it is in Massachusetts, you could/should report it
    to the Office for Children.  Their staff (and thus investigative
    abilities) have already been cut substantially for budget reasons.  But
    the at least plausible evidence of mistreatment might well move it to a
    high priority queue for them to look into.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    I strongly agree with .1.  The Office for Children should be contacted
    most importantly because of suspected abuse, but secondly because she
    is taking care of many children and holds no licence.  Don't feel bad,
    it's better to keep your child safe (and others in the process).
    
    

    I agree with the previous noters.  Call now and report her.  If
    she's located in Mass., you can bet they'll be there to close her
    down in the blink of an eye.  But not necessarily because of suspected
    abuse as it's difficult to prove - but for non-payment of taxes.
    It's a sad state of affairs in Massachusetts.
    
    - K

    Yup, report them for not being licensed.  From what you wrote, IMO the
    abuse call is very "iffy".  I'd leave it to the authorities to make
    that decision.
    
    I would not recommend notifying other parents whose children are cared
    for in that home.  With child abuse in the forefront of most parents'
    minds these days, one comment could easily turn into a modern-day
    "witch hunt".
    
    I agree with -.1, they'll be closed down immediately for
    non-licensing/non-tax payments, and would have to go through the
    formal, very lengthy process to become established.
    
    Cheryl
    
    

    RE:  .0
    
    If this is in fact located within Mass., a report should be filed as
    previously stated.  The fact that this person is unlicensed shoudl have
    told you something also.  What is required is an accurate record of any
    unusual injuries.  This includes bruising.  If the children were
    treated as you describe, I would think that there would be evidence
    seen by the parents.  This also brings to mind a question:  At what
    point can you determine that bruising was caused by abuse rather than
    just kids being kids?  I am not trying to say that abuse did not occur
    nor am I saying that it did.  Just keep in mind that this is somewhat
    of a grey area.
    
    I wouldn't wait until the Office for Children investigates anything as
    they are overworked as it is (not including the cuts due to take effect
    10/9).  The only thing that you can do at this time is record any and
    all evidence that you have and perhaps contact other parents that are
    using this person to voice your concerns.  Please be factual.  If a
    false accusation is made, you are open to a lawsuit yourself.
    
    Dan
    

    Non-licensed does not mean that they are not paying taxes.  My wife is
    non-licensed and believe me, we definitely pay taxes.  Also
    non-licensed has nothing to do with quality of care. 
    
    
    RE: Topic at hand-If you suspect something-do something.  Speaking from
    the non-emotional part of my head.  Let the proper authorities handle
    it.  Speaking from the emotional side, I'd be over there in her face in
    a heartbeat to abuse her.  Luckily the non-emotional side usually wins
    out.  Don't blame yourself for this.  To make sure it doesn't happen
    again, find a sitter close to work, and drop in from time to time.  If
    the provider doesn't want you to drop in, find another.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    My reading of the base note did leave a big question as to whether you
    could actually call her child handling "abuse".  Her handling certainly
    doesn't sound orthodox though.  I have picked kids up by trouser waist
    bands before now and put them down on all 4s ... but did not DROP them.
    Now the question is did she put them down or drop them ... if they were
    dropped, I'd be looking for bruised knees and sore feet and
    hands/wrists.  
    
    As to the keeping some kids inside while allowing her own out ... she's
    being paid to look after your kids and not her own, so she's keeping
    them where she can keep a closer eye on them ... and being more lax
    about her own ... so whose kids is she neglecting ???  
    
    It certainly doesn't sound like a healthy environment though, so you
    have to do what you think best.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    This one hits rather close to home for me.  My 2 oldest children were 
    sexually assaulted by an individual that I had hired from a license day
    care center.  (Private after hours coverage)
    
    I feel you should let the other parents know. Perhaps you could start
    a conversation with 'I heard something that bothers me, and tell them
    exactly what you have said here'. 
    
    Also, as an fyi, the therapist I dealt with after my children were
    assaulted said that most children, under the age of 6, won't say
    anything to thier parents about 'uncomfortable' situations because they
    believe thier parents already know and approve.
    
    If it is Mass, then I would indeed report her for being non-licensed.
    It will shut her down and as far as I am concerned that is not the
    worse thing that could happen.
    
    I feel very strongly about this because the person that assaulted my
    children had been assaulting children for about 4 years before my children.
    I was
    the FIRST to go to court about for a lot of reasons. I had more people
    come up to me afterwards the court experience and tell me that this
    person had done something similar to someone they knew.
    
    Granted it is not sexual assault but it still is just as insidious for
    a young child to be treated this way by someone his or her parents have 
    hired to protect them.............
    
    The issue of finding anouther provider.  Wether a person is licensed or
    not I would ask for several personnel reference's and call them to get 
    thier opinion of the provider.   Personally I have not been able to
    place my 2 youngest children in daycare because I frankly know I would
    be so unfair to anyone but myself or immediate family in watching them.
    
    susan 

Just an aside regarding the Office For Children...

Do NOT think they are TOO busy to investigate a report.  Recently I enrolled
my son at a new daycare that was opening up.  There was a 3 week lapse from
the time I took him out of the old daycare, to the time the new daycare 
center opened.  Two teachers who would be working at the new daycare center
agreed to babysit him and 2 other children for those 3 weeks.

When the owner of the old daycare center found out about my arrangement, he
filed a report with the OFC stating that these two teachers were running an
illegal daycare.  We didn't think the OFC would get around to investigating
in time but WRONG.  They came within 3 days!!!! (And this wasn't as serious
as abuse!)  BTW, since the situation was temporary, OFC said there was no
problem.

I'd notify (or better yet, have your friend notify) the other parents of what
"T" has said.  But I agree with a previous noter, while the description given
in the base note doesn't sound like an acceptable way to treat/discipline
children...I'm not sure it qualifies as abuse, either.

� �ori �

    Do it.  You can call the office of Children and/or your local DSS
    office and file a 51A (which is neglect and abuse) against this lady
    and also get her for not being licensed and watching quit a bit of
    children ranging indifferent age groups.  I think the limit for a non
    licensed day care provider is 4 (I'm not sure).  But you could get this
    lady in some serious trouble with the office of children and DSS.
    
    
    Liz

    A voice of caution... a friend of mine had an unfounded 51A filed
    against her several years ago, by the overzealous teacher of one
    of her children. This teacher felt that things she heard from the
    child reflected abuse-and-neglect in the home. Life is very often
    composed of gray areas, not black or white; this 51A was not
    justified. Family counseling was in order (and the family went) 
    but the 51A causes my friend pain to this day. Once it has been
    filed, it's on the records forever, even if the case is resolved
    satisfactorily. So please be sure it's the right thing to do before
    you do it.
    
    (On the other hand, I don't believe children lie, and "T" should
    be listened to and taken seriously.)
    
    Lucy
       

    re .6 I'd be VERY careful to whom you admit that your wife is running
    an unlisensed daycare.  I was considering opening a daycare within the
    past  2 years, the basic package the OFC sends begins with a paragraph
    that says basically "anyone who takes care of children for salary,
    whether related or not MUST be licensed by the Office for Children"  IT
    went on to say that if you were caught caring for children without a
    license you would be unable to ever obtain a certificate in this state.
    
    By the way the number of children to adult is 6 not 4, as someone
    stated.
    
    Now, my suggestions are as follows,  Are you a good enough actor(ess)
    to go back where your child was on the pretense of having forgotten
    something (a blanket, a favorite teddy bear, even just a pair of socks)
    unannounced of course?  Of course she won't find whatever you "forgot"
    but at least you'll hopefully get a handle on the day to day
    situations.  Is she in an area that you can drive by, perhaps with
    someone else in a car she won't recognize.  (that someone else would
    also be able to verify if you saw something out of place)  How about
    going with "T's" mother when she picks him up someday, or drop by
    unannouced with her.
    
    Hope you resolve this soon!
    Lyn
    

    re .12 re .6:  Please keep in mind that the requirement to have a
    license to offer daycare is a Massachusetts law, not a law of
    nature. 
    
    (General reminder to noters:  remember that this is an international
    notefile, and that the laws and customs that you take for granted
    are likely to be specific to your own country, state (province,
    county, etc.), or even community.)
    
    	-Neil

    Does that licence requirement mean that a provider in Mass. who is a 
    sitter for the evening must be licensed, or does this apply to long
    term daily care?

    Thanks .12-We live in the state of Maryland, and the rules are
    different down here.  I guess I get kind of touchy on this subject
    because I know how well my wife does.  She has a 7 year old who came to
    her from a "licensed" daycare provider.  At the licensed place, the
    kids came home from school and were plopped down in front of the boob
    tube until the parents arrived.  With my wife, they play some, then do
    their homework (ie go over spelling words, etc).  Anyway, thanks for
    the concern.
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

A reply from the basenoter.

       Carol dB, PARENTING co-mod

***************************************************************************

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the wonderful responses, and
update you on what is happening.

I spoke to my son, as well as a couple of other mom's spoke to their
kids.  None of the kids witnessed any of the things "T" described.  I'm
not sure these things actually happened now, but I believe "T" thinks 
they did (i.e., the sitter may picked up a child by the pants and put
her down roughly, and "T"'s interpretation of this act was different
perhaps than you or I would see it.)

Even though these incidents may not have occurred, I still feel this
woman did not have the personality (kindness, gentleness, etc.) to be
watching kids.  Also the fact that she watched MANY kids, many of those
pre-school age, is not good.  And I know for a fact the kids were not
allowed outside all summer long.

Well, both my friend and I had pulled our kids out of this place before
her son spoke up, so I do feel good about that.  She also spoke to some
of her friends who had worked for DSS previously, and through some phone
calls, the daycare will definitely shut down because of lack of license,
too many kids, etc.

I would like to add my two cents regarding licensed vs unlicensed.  I
have had several sitters, both with & without licenses, due to my family
moving, sitters moving, sitters going back to college, etc., etc.  It
hasn't been easy!  I don't feel the licensed sitters were better (or
worse) than the unlicensed.  To become licensed, you need to have a
safe home, fenced yard, experience, etc., etc.  in Massachusetts (not
sure of all the regulations).  But I feel I am the best judge of who
I'd prefer to watch my kids, how she'll interact with them, how loving
she is, etc.  I think the state looks more at the "tangible" qualities
and not so much these personal, un-measurable traits.  Also, some of
the state's intentions are very good, but I'm not sure they're carried
through enough to be really effective, especially in this economically-
difficult time (i.e., they don't surprise-visit as much-if at all-as they
claim).

Also, my current sitter is wonderful!  She's great with the kids, and
they love to go over there.  And she is not licensed.  Another (licensed)
woman in town has been reporting many unlicensed sitters, because she
hasn't been able to get a "full house".  My sitter is worried she'll be
turned in, and won't be able to practice anymore.  This would be a REAL
shame.

Well, I've said my piece.  Thanks again for all the replies.

    .16 > Also, my current sitter is wonderful! . . . And she is not
    .16 > licensed.  . . . My sitter is worried she'll be turned in,
    .16 > and won't be able to practice anymore.  
    
    Why doesn't she get a license?
    
    		- Bruce
    

    RE: Bruce,
    
    I can say why my wife doesn't get a license.  It is beacause it opens
    your house up to the state at their convenience.  We don't mind the
    parents coming in at any time, but I'll be darned if The state is going
    to have access to my house at theirconvenience.  They have their nose
    in my businees too much as it is anyway.
    
    RE: Basenoter-That's too bad.  I imagine that this person (the licensed
    one) is not going to have many friends left in the neighborhood.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    
    In re: 18
    
    Your political opinions aren't helpful here, Mike.  Your wife isn't
    required to be licensed, under your regulations.  The basenoter's
    provider IS required to be licensed.  She could be permanently barred
    from providing homecare for what she is now doing, so one wonders why
    she doesn't go through the fairly simple procedure to become legal.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    RE: .18
    
    Perhaps this should be addressed at another note but...
    
    I find that an excuse like "I'll be darned is the state is going to
    have access to my house..." to be ridiculous.  The state looks for
    specific safety measures only.  This includes the number of exits and
    the number of children present.  I view this as protection for not only
    myself but also the children.  I agree with .16(i think) that there is
    not enough follow through on the part of the state, thus the existance
    of many over-booked centers.
    
    The cost of the license application is minimal (at least for NH and
    Ma.)  A background check is made to insure that you (the provider) are
    not a convicted child molester or something and a safety check is made
    of your home.  That is the extent of the procedure.  Sure, they say
    that they will "drop by" sometime to check.  In reality, it rarely
    happens sonce they are so overworked.  I see no difference in the state
    spot checking for safety and a parent spot checking.
    
    Dan

State licensing of daycare is definitely a subject that should be addressed
in another note.  It is relevant in this discussion to the extent that it
relates to the original question of what to do about a particular daycare
situation.

Thank you.

	-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator

    
    
    RE:20 I don't believe they can do a background check (MASS) on an
    individual to find out if they are a sex offender.  There is a question
    on the License Application about wether you have ever been convicted of
    a Sex Offense.  But I seriously doubt anyone that had been convicted of
    this would answer honestly.
    
    I was told the reason they can't check is that it violates the
    criminals right to privacy or some such thing.
    
    Please correct me if I am wrong.
    
    
    susan chadsey
    

    re .14  Evening sitters (I presume you mean the casual occational type)
    are not required to be licensed.  After all it is called DAY care. 
    Although I recently saw an ad in the supermarket for a woman, with
    license advertising for "second shift" child care.  IMO, nice idea for
    those who have that need!
    
    re .22  A background check MUST be done prior to licensing.  It's
    referred to as an MCIC check (MA Criminal something orother)  You sign
    a release form with your license application.
    
    re .18, you may call the fee, forms and waiting "easy"  I found it a
    pain in the ***!  The waiting period can take up to 6 weeks for
    licensing, and in one situation my sitter moved to another house, her
    license was suspended pending an inspection of her new home.
    
    Lyn
    

    RE: ?  You may think my reasoning is ridiculous, but I think it's a
    matter of parents wanting the state to do thier jobs is rediculous.  
    When my wife gets a new child, she gives the parent a tour of the 
    house and points out the safety precautions we have taken.  I would 
    not be against the parents being able to do a background check for their
    sitter.
    
    Bruce:  Your welcome to your opinion as am I.  Just remember that it is
    YOUR opinion.
    
    Peace,
    Mike

	Folks, let's please get this back on the basenote subject.

Tracey
Parenting co-mod.