Conference moira::parenting_v3

Bob, I think the first thing I'd think of was "why do I get saddled with
this responsibility, why isn't it a team effort?"  But, only you know
the answer to that.

I'm not certain what to tell your daughter, but at least don't do what my
mom did in answering some of my questions.  I'll never forget this exchange
when I was maybe 12 or 13:

me: What's a virgin?
her: An unmarried pure woman.
me: I get the unmarried part but what does pure mean?
her: A woman who's never slept with a man.

It doesn't cut it!  Be honest with her and use "correct" terminology.
My 3 year old already knows that dad's penis is a penis (though she
pronounces it a little more like peanuts.)  This doesn't mean you
have to get clinical, but at least there won't be any misunderstandings.

I wish I could tell your daughter what it feels like when breasts grow, 
but I've been waiting 37 years and still don't know! That could be something 
important, too.  Let her know that not all women grow breasts.  Better that 
she know than feel really strange in the locker room!

Well, enough rambling for Monday morning!

Liz

    My 7 year old daughter has started asking for clarification on some
    rather *interesting* questions about sex.  She told us that her one-
    year-older cousin had told her alot about it.
    
    First, in answer to the question poised in .0 - I went to Harvard
    Community Health and bought a kit they have called TLC - Talk, Listen
    and Care.  It has things divided into two age groups - 4-8 and 8-12. 
    For the younger ones there is a drawing book which askes the child to
    depict various situations.  There is also a guidebook for parents with
    suggestions on how to answer many of the questions that come up.  For
    older kids there is a game in which each person draws a situation card
    that is then discussed.  
    
    The kit is not just about sex, although that content is its primary
    focus, but it is also about talking with your children about all kinds
    of difficult subjects from too much TV to drug use.
    
    It is $9.95 at HCHP Pharmacies or $11.95 via the mail.  You do not need
    to be a member to purchase it.
    
    Second - my own question.  When my daughter told me about her
    discussions with her cousin, I called my sister to fill her in - not
    because I wanted the child punished, but I thought my sister needed to
    know the kinds of things her daughter knew.  I got a call back from my
    sister categorically denying that it had been Lisa because she KNOWS
    that her child cannot lie to her and Lisa denies it.
    
    I had decided to drop it, its just not worth getting my sister all
    defensive.  But over the weekend when Maggie saw the TLC box she said
    that she didn't want to know about sex because sex gives you AIDS. 
    Well, of course we had a discussion about sex communicating AIDS, not
    causing it and asked her where she had heard this.  It was from Lisa.
    Now my question is this - here is a little girl with some distorted
    views and a mother who denies that her child discusses these things
    with her friends.  Should I try again?  By the way, I do know that my
    sister has had some healthy talks with the child so I think that maybe
    this will work itself out over time but.....
    
    Feels like a hornets nest to me.
    Norma
    

    In re: .0 -
    
    It seems to me troubling when one parent won't discuss sex (or any
    other important topic) with the child(ren).  The extra responsibility
    on the other parent is a minor problem.  Worse is the clear though
    unspoken message that the silent parent feels that sex is too wicked,
    or too embarassing, or too somethingorother to be discussed, even with
    one's own child; an unfortunate message.  It seems to me the silent
    parent has a duty to try to figure out why she is so troubled.  Even if
    she can't bring herself to have the discussion, she owes the child an
    explanation of why this is so (presumably that she was taught to feel
    that way as a child, and can't overcome it).  I think the girl deserves
    a full unembarassed discussion from a mature female (maybe an Aunt);
    this so she learns that discussing menstruation, orgasm, or whatever
    are fine topics for womanly discussion; she can certainly learn the
    facts from dad and some good books she should get anyhow.
    
    In re: .2 -
    
    The fact that your sister thinks her 8 year old child "cannot lie to
    her" suggests that she is living on the moon.  I have to doubt that she
    is having healthy talks with her daughter about sex, but I have no idea
    if you should try to do or say anything about it (though giving lots of
    good information to _your_ daughter and encouraging discussions with
    her cousin would be one possible constructive strategy).
    
    		- Bruce

    re .2
    
    I think what I would do in your place is start from a "my pediatrician/ 
    school nurse/whatever has suggested that 7 or 8 is an appropriate time
    to start discussing reproduction, sex, and its moral context for our
    family.  They suggested using this set of materials to help us open the
    conversation.  Would you like me to get an extra set for you to use
    with <my niece>?"  Doesn't get into the messy issues of lying/not
    lying, does she know anything/enough, are the "open and free"
    discussions really taking place that are the potential cans of worms
    and relationship-killers.  If she says "Thanks, but no thanks", drop
    it.  Make sure you provide your child with enough information (and
    sources) so that she can refute the fallacies she will hear from her
    friends.  Set her up to be the neighbourhood expert!
    
    re .0 -
    
    Wish I had some ideas for you.  I'd probably check with the children's
    room librarian at the local library.
    
    Alison

re: .1, .3

I have my suspicions as to why my wife doesn't want to be part of the
discussion.  I may need to press more for an explanation.

It's funny.  My wife and most of her friends are RNs.  I overheard Lisa and
one of her RN friends talking about it and her friend made a comment to the
effect of "I'm glad I have a boy.  That way Tony can tell him about it.  I
wouldn't know what to say."

Thanks,

Bob

Am I out of touch here?  Behind the times?  I think 8 is too young to 
discuss the facts of life.  Well, maybe not too young to discuss it in
general terms, but specifics?  (By general, I mean explaining how babies
are conceived and born, perhaps AIDS & birth control.  But menstruation?  
Orgasms?)

I had my talk with my mother when I was 11, (it didn't include sex, just
menstruation) and I remember feeling somewhat frightened by it.  And when I
was told about sex, a year or so later, I felt somewhat...shocked?  I can't
imagine being able to grasp/comprehend this at 8 years of age.  Who knows,
maybe I would've handled it better! :-)

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, but it's MHO.

� �ori �

    Well, menstruation and orgasms were in my note, so I'll comment on .6. 
    I didn't refer to any particular age for such topics, just that parents
    should try _not_ to teach (directly or indirectly) that they are taboo.
    I guess I think all these topics will probably come up at very
    different ages in different levels of sophistication, and are all
    legitimate whenever a kid has a question.  I would think that
    menstruation would often come up (somewhat casually) when a 4 or 6 or 8
    year old wonders what a tampon is, or, perhaps, why mom is feeling off
    sorts.  Of course, not the same as a conversation with an 11 or 12 year
    old girl. Likewise, you can't really convey birth control without
    touching on the (perhaps initially surprising!) fact that some sex is
    for pleasure, rather than babies; in a sense, that's dealing with
    orgasm, however indirectly.
    
    I remember worrying some about whether I would be comfortable with such
    discussions (unlike my own parents) before my first kid arrived. One way I
    got used to them was by starting the first one at about 6 months.  That
    was non-threatenting!
    
    		- Bruce

re: .6

It's funny, it seems to me like menstruation is a more appropriate subject for 
an eight year old than birth control.  If you were frightened by an 
explanation of menstruation, imagine how frightened you would have been if you 
had experienced it with no explanation at all.  

But I agree with you, I can't see any particularly good reason for explaining 
orgasms.  I took Bruce's "list" as being a sample of subjects, rather than a 
definitive list of what ought to be discussed with an eight year old.  .7 
seems to verify that was his intent.

I think it's good though, that we are talking in specific terms.  I think that 
there is a lot of confusion over what the terms "the facts of life" or even 
"sex" means.  I also think that there's some benefit to explaining the same 
subject several times, with the explanation suited to the age, comprehension 
level, and maturity of the individual.  For example, it seems to me that that 
first explanation of AIDS is that it is a terrible disease.

re: base note

When I was a teenager, I remember my mother saying "Well, unfortunately, I'll 
have to explain it to you".  "It" meant sex.  Well, guess what.  The 
explanation consisted of one chapter in a book on the human body, about what I 
call "applied biology".  Of course I think it's unfortunate that my father 
could or would not talk about sex.  But even if an explanation that my mother 
could have given would have had some huge holes in it, it would have been a 
lot better than what I got.  So I urge you to do your best, even if you know 
that your explanation will lack personal experience.

Is it that your wife won't even TALK about it, or that she just won't bring it 
up?  If it's the latter, it seems to me that you could encourage your daughter 
to ask her mother questions, and maybe eventually, your wife will feel more 
comfortable talking about it.  For example, the conversation that you mention 
in .5 indicates to me that the problem may be that she just doesn't know how 
to get started.

If it's that she can't or won't talk about sex at all, I think that there will 
almost inevitably be a problem with your daughter, not just from lack of 
information, but from the attitude it conveys.  IMO, your wife owes it to your 
daughter to explore why she can't talk about it.  But you can't force that, 
and if that happens, then I would do what Bruce suggested.  Find an aunt, 
youth minister, doctor, school counselor, or someone who can give your 
daughter the explanation and counseling that she deserves.

Clay

Thanks for the replies so far.  Lisa and I have another unrelated issue to
resolve that will take a few weeks before I can bring up the issue of sex ed.

Bob

re .6

I was 8 years old when my friends in my class told me about sex.  We
all couldn't believe our parents would do such things.  My mom gave me
her sex talk when I was 9 and I'm sure she thought I knew nothing about
it.  I don't think 8 is too young.  

I was embarassed when she read the reproduction book to me and was very
relieved when the talk was over. I almost didn't want to know.  Maybe I
wasn't really ready for the info. but she was better to be safe than sorry.

My mom just told me how babies were made, she didn't go into any explanations
of orgasms of anything(I got to learn about that on the streets somewhere.)

    Many American girls begin menstruating at 9 or 10, so I'd say
    leaving it much past 8 is probably risky.
    
    --bonnie

>                       -< younger and younger at onset >-
>
>    Many American girls begin menstruating at 9 or 10, so I'd say
>    leaving it much past 8 is probably risky.
>    
>    --bonnie

Don't remind me ... our 9 year old was dancing around last night getting
ready for a shower and it suddenly hit me (my wife hadn't noticed either),
her breasts have just started to develop ... 

Fortunately, we have had a pretty much open bathroom door policy at home
when we don't have vistors, so we've talked about some of these things
already ....

but OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH DO I SUDDENLY FEEL O L D !!!  I feel it's all happening in
the blink of an eye .... and where am I ?  At work ... ugggghhhhh

Stuart

    And it'll probably happen when they're off at camp or something
    and you're not there anyway . . . at least that's how it was for
    Kat.
    
    --bonnie

    Just an update.  I asked Lisa why she wouldn't talk to Nicole.  It's
    not that she won't.  She just doesn't want to by herself.  She says she
    wouldn't know what to say.  It turns out that no one told her anything
    when she was a child.  Her mother died when she was young and she
    learned about her period when a whole bunch of blood clots fell on the
    bathroom floor one morning.
    
    Bob

Bob, this sounds like an EXCELLENT opportunity then for the both of you!
You can really wrap it up in love and closeness and friendship.  Maybe
I'm being really "flowery" about it, but it seems like a neat opportunity
for your wife to present it the way she would have wanted it presented
and to involve you as her life partner.

Liz

Time for an update.

We all have had a few talks since I entered the base note.  Nicole understands
what a period is, etc.

This weekend, Nicole was complaining to Lisa that her breasts hurt.  Is this
a sign that she will get her first period soon?  She doesn't have any pubic
hair and her breasts look like they might be starting to develope.  I guess the
best way to describe it is that her breast area looks a little more defined.

Is it time to teach her how to use a tampon and/or napkin and have her start
carrying them in her purse?  (This should be fun.  As a tom-boy kind of girl,
she doesn't like carrying a purse).

Thanks,

Bob

    Carrying around a purse with a sanitary napkin in case she MIGHT get
    her period (could be a long time in coming) sounds like a royal drag.
    
    It might perhaps be better to find out what they do at school when this
    happens.  (It was a common occurance in 7th grade.)  If she has a
    locker, she can keep a sanitary napkin in there without anyone knowing
    if she keeps it wrapped up somehow.  (The kids in school can be very
    catty.)  The school nurse will certainly be prepared to help a girl who
    suddenly starts menstruating. If she stains her clothing, she may be
    able to wash out the stain at the nurse's office.  You could consider
    storing an extra skirt or pants in her locker if you are too far away
    to come and rescue her.
    
    If it happens at home, just keep a box of napkins ready in the
    bathroom.  If it happens out at the mall or while playing sports, just
    wing it.  It happens to EVERY girl sometime, and that big red stain,
    while embarassing as all get-out, is not so terrible, in retrospect.
    
    Do discuss whether she'd rather use a napkin or a tampon.  Maybe a
    female relative or older friend can conduct this conversation.  Maybe 
    this is all too early, anyway.  Her doctor can tell you if she is getting
    closer to her time to start.
    
    Good luck

I agree not to have her carry it around with her forever.  Now, though,
napkins and tampons can be *very* small.  Napkins can be just a little
packet 2-3 inches square, and ob tampons are a couple of inches long, so
can be hidden anywhere.  This means she could store one almost anywhere.
We typically keep spares in our glove compartment of the car.  A locker
is a good idea.

Ladies, remember the days of the old-fashioned Kotex, *with* belt?
YUK!!  Glad there are more options today!!

     Carol

    re: .17
    
    No locker at school.  When she went to her pedi earlier this year, he
    hinted to Lisa that it would probably start sometime in the next year.
    
    Since I only have a brother and my parents were only children, (hence,
    no aunts, uncles, or cousins), I have no idea how this is normally
    handled in a family.  And as I mentioned earlier, Lisa's mother died
    when she was young and she received absolutely no training at all.  So,
    we thank everyone for their thoughts and ideas.
    
    Bob

    Dear Bob,
    
    Carol has a good point.  Both tampons and napkins are very small now. 
    Many napkins come with an adhesive strip to attach them to the panties
    so they don't require a yucky belt.  Since your daughter doesn't have a
    locker, here's another idea.  Does she carry one of those big 3 ring
    binders for her notes?  If so, you can buy a zippered plastic envelope
    with 3 holes on the side, and some sanitary products would fit in
    there.  She should hide it in a piece of paper so the other kids don't
    tease her.  If she keeps a gym bag at school, she could store it in
    there.  Does she use a knapsack to carry her books?  That's another
    hiding place.
    
    Another suggestion is to talk to her teacher about it.  See what the
    teacher suggests.  It's a universal problem for girls that age,
    remember.  
    
    About finding someone to advise her, do you have any female friends
    who can help?  Would she feel comfortable talking to a teacher or nurse
    at school?  It would be helpful for her to actually touch and see both
    a tampon and a sanitary napkin, so she'd be better prepared and have
    some way of deciding what she'd like to use.
    
    Today there is a wide range of products.  They vary in size, method of
    use, and absorbancy.
    
    By the way, the best way to get blood out of clothing is to rinse it
    well in cold water.  You can rub with bar soap, as well.  Any residual
    stain should come out in the next laundry.  You can use Shout stain
    remover before washing, to be sure.
    
    Bob, it sounds like you are doing a fine job in a difficult situation. 
    Being a single parent is tough.
    
    Best of luck.,
    -L

    For those who think 8 may be too young, I started menstruating at age 9
    as did my mother and 2 of my sisters.  I was glad my Mom atleast told
    me about my period by then.  I remember a girl I went to school with
    was 14 and totally freaked out because she thought she was bleeding to
    death.  Her parents hadn't told her anything.
    I agree with previous noters about talking to the school nurse.  I
    never carried tampons/tampax around with me and was able to get one in
    the nurses office.  Also, my niece just started and the doctor told my
    sister that my niece was too young to start wearing tampons (she should
    wear pads instead).
    
    Marie

    You may wish to call and talk to her pediatrician about available
    books on the subject that are geared to young girls.  I remember
    my Mom sitting down and explaining all about menstruation and why,
    what to expect and so forth. She also had some literature on it.
    At the time, I belonged to the Girls Scouts and they had a movie
    on menstruation and hygiene. Your local library may have some movies
    and certainly some books and literature for both of you. 
    
    In addition, you may wish to ask your pediatrian or the school nurse
    to sit down and talk with her on what to expect. Your daughter may be 
    more comfortable speaking to a woman doctor, so if the pediatric group 
    has a woman then I suggest scheduling some time with her for your 
    daughter.   
    
    If carrying around a pad or tampon is a pain, especially since she
    hasn't even had her period, try making sure she has at least a dime
    or quarter with her at all times.  Most ladies rooms have dispensers
    with tampons and pads available.
    
    Good Luck. My best you you and your family.
    
    Pat K.

    Bob,

    	Something that you may not be aware of, it is generally accepted
    that tampon wearers should wear pads at night or at the very least
    change the tampon at a maximum of every 4 hours.

    	I'm sure that you've heard of toxic shock syndrome, what happens is
    that toxic bacteria (staph) gets literally plugged up inside of the
    body with the tampon and as blood is very rich in nutrients - starts to
    multiple and breed on the tampon.

    	There is usually an insert about toxic shock in every box of
    tampons.

    			Wendy

Bob:

I had a similar experience this weekend when my 14+-year old niece "hinted"
about veneral diseases ... what are they ... how serious are they (must be
the topic of conversation at school!)  So I told her about the ones I knew
about and how some are definately more serious than others.  The conversation
even ended up discussing "pre-marital pregnancies" and alternatives.

We were driving in the car ... just us two ... and I said "got any more
questions you'd like to address while we're on these UNtalked about topics?"  
She laughed and said "not really, I understand better now ...".  I asked her if
she had sex education in school and she said "no ... and besides, I'd feel
awful uncomfortable with the boys making jokes about it!"  She also felt
that the "other girls" knew more than she did, but she was afraid (or
embarassed) to ask for clarification/explanation.  I assured her that nothing
would surprise or shock me ... I was an adolescent girl once too!

I then said "well, how come you didn't ask your Mom, Peg?"  And she said
"are you kidding!  My Mom would get all embarrassed and wouldn't know what
to say ... she'd give me a book probably!  You're easy to ask, so I ask you
...".  I thought a bit and then said "well, Peg, knowing how uncomfortable you
are with asking your Mom, I guess I've got to depend on you AND YOUR MOM
to answer these same questions for MY daughter some day ...".  She grinned.

Point is ... perhaps it is easier for a kid to discuss these issues with
someone OTHER THAN their parent(s>).  Perhaps they feel they won't get a "lecture"
or the parent won't react thinking if the kid is asking, the kid must be
thinking or doing?

Whatever ...

I'd probably have a heart-to-heart talk with the school nurse before I'd have
a heart-to-heart talk with a teacher .... unless there's a teacher your
daughter is particularly fond of.  But I'd definately plant the seed and if
she's uncomfortable with the conversation, offer her some direction (book,
older cousin, school nurse ...).

Getting your period for the first time is emotional and scaring enough (I
thought once it started, it would never end!!!  I'd probably bleed to death
by Friday!), without knowing the facts AND knowing EVERY GIRL experiences this
and even "why".

Parenting is NOT for whimps!

Dottie

For a year or two I used pads - messy and smelly.  I had been told (by
*someone*) that tampons would "take away your virginity."  Then, at age 13 or
so, I found out that all of my friends used tampons, and they said it was no
problem (a lot *less* problem than napkins).  It was a little difficult the
first time (I must have been pretty dry) but I have never liked pads since. 

As long as you don't use the "super" absorbent tampons, you aren't in much
danger of toxic shock, especially if (as Wendy said) you change them often.

In the beginning, when she is still learning which times will have the 
heaviest flow and which will be the lightest, then she might want to use
a tampon *with* a mini-pad, just to be sure she doesn't leak.  Teach her,
too, to keep track of her cycle, to mark the first day of her period on
a calendar (her own, if she wishes).  This way she can try to remember not
to wear white pants (or dress) around the time she is going to start.
I still remember the day I wore *my* white pants and started while sitting
in class.  :-(

    Carol

    Once she starts menstruating, she may be thinking that 28 (days) is 
    *the* magical number; while I agree with marking the calendar, I'd want 
    to be sure she knows that irregular periods (or even skipping one) is 
    common when you're just starting (consult her doctor too, of course).
    
    Some people, like me, continue to have a scatter-shot predictability
    for their whole menstrual life...  I put a *penciled* X on my calendar
    at 26.5 days (my average), knowing that it'll really happen +/- 2 days!!
    
    Leslie  

    Hi Bob,
    
    Now that you are probably feeling overwhelmed with all this detail -;)
    
    If you have a septic system, tell your daughter not to flush tampons
    down.  They can jam things up.  She should wrap them in toilet paper
    and put them in the garbage.  Sanitary napkins should not go into any
    toilet.  Again, wrap them and discard.  Public restrooms nearly always
    have a metal box on the wall for this purpose.  They often have a paper
    bag inside the box to keep things neater.
    
    One other convenience to make her feel more comfortable:  You can buy
    Tucks or other personal cleansing pads, often in individually wrapped
    packets.  They'll help her feel fresh, if she'd like to use them during
    the day.
    
    Laura
    
    PS: The following is not for the squeemish:  (sp?)
    
    If you have a dog, tell your daughter to put soiled tampons or pads in
    the garbage where the dog can't reach them.  They make an attractive
    snack.  EEEUUUW!  (And you thought dirty diapers were disgusting...)

    although tampons are alot less trouble, and do not "take away your
    virginity", she may want to wear pads for the first few times just to
    get used to the whole "bleeding" thing.  She'll then have an idea of
    how heavy her flow will be, and time to get adjusted, before adding in
    a new idea of inserting something.
    
    If I remember correctly, I had to use a tampon for the first time so I
    could participate in a swim meet, and it was OK as long as I was
    standing.  But, sitting was fairly painful.  I'm sure I did it wrong a
    few times before I got it right.  
    
    Bev

    
    	Along the lines of the previous dog alert:
    
    	Dogs (my dog anyway) are also particularly fond of condoms that
    have been sent to the trashcan. I know it doesn't have anything to do
    with this note line except that condoms are one more thing that should
    be disposed of properly. (They could potentially kill a dog).
    
    	Now along the line of things I wish someone had told me:
    
    	If you are using tampons be very very certain to check that you
    have removed the last one, it sounds like a stupid thing and you only
    have to do it once to never do it again, but when I was first starting,
    I was just not used to this "period" thing and I accidentally left the
    last tampon in. It took about a week for me to figure this out and I
    ended up with quite an infection. 
    
    
    			Wendy

Sorry, I wasn't clear about the calendar.  I meant to mark the calendar 
on the day that she already has started, not when she *thinks* she will
start.  It will take her quite a while to figure out her body's own 
schedule, and this will help her to do that.  When she knows that
she averages 25 days or 28 days or 35 days, THEN she can start guessing
as to when she will start next.

BTW, one thing that I would teach a daughter is that this area is not
"naturally dirty".  In other words, of course one would want to clean up
blood or urine or poop, but that douches are not necessary for any woman
unless the woman has been prescribed one for a specific medical reason.

One other thing, Bob: the tampons now come in "slender".  This works great
for young women (and some of us older women, too!).

       Carol

    re: all
    
    Thanks for the info.  I haven't been so much overwhelmed as busy.  We
    had a small pamplet on puberty for girls that we had read and discussed
    a while back and Nicole asked about it again today.  Now we need to
    find it again.  When I give it to her, I will remind her that we are
    ready and willing to answer any questions or discuss anything she is
    concerned about.
    
    Bob