Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Huh??  Did I write .0 from Dottie's account??   My god, you've
    just described Jason to a "t"!!!   From speaking with other mothers,
    this is just one of those phases (though one person told me that
    they don't outgrow it, just the parents become more tolerant).
    
    Like JA, Jason wants EVERYTHING he's not supposed to have.  The
    floor of the den can be covered with toys, but he HAS to climb the
    floor lamp, change the TV buttons, or play with the phone.  He 
    throws an absolute fit when he can't have what he wants.  However,
    I'm not yet able to stand as firm as you, Dottie, as I give in 
    on things that aren't dangerous or pick him up and move him to
    neutral territory.
    
    He also reserves this special behaviour for his mom and in his own
    home.   We went to Canobie on Sunday, he was excellent...the minute
    (and I mean the minute) we walked in the door, he returned to his
    cranky, wild self.   
    
    I'm looking forward to some suggestions from those whov've
    experienced this "charming" phase!
    
    Carol

    Dottie, I'd like to offer the advise from another note I read
    recently...
    
    	I suggest Brandy.....FOR YOU!!
    
    and my other suggestion....
    
    	see this (pointing to palm of hand) it worked great to discipine
    me, it'll work great for disciplining my child!
    
    Guess we just have to try (that's the key word here TRY) and ignore
    negative behavior, and emphasize the good acts.  Sounds good on paper at 
    least!  Not trying to make light of this, I know how frustrating it is,
    I've got a nephew who can make your hair curl with his screaming if he
    doesn't get his way.
    
    Lyn
    

    
    Dottie,
    
    	You and Jim need to get it straight to her that not only can she
    NOT have whatever it is she wants, but that her behavior is also
    unacceptable.  I went through it with both of my girls.  It was
    suggested to me, at the time, that while they're going through their
    temper tantrums, to sit on them.  Across their pelvis where it's
    strongest and just enough to keep them pinned down.  While you're doing
    this, in a firm, but gentle voice, keep saying "No, this is not
    acceptable, when you want to be nice, I'll let you get back up.  And
    then you still must do as I say."
    
    	It sounds kinda of nutty, but it worked for me.  Not maybe the
    first time I tried it, but if you keep on doing it they get the general
    idea.  And the kids really got pi**ed at first!  Not only are you
    telling them they can't do what they want, but you're also telling them
    they can't act the way they are.  There is a right way and a wrong way
    to be angry and you need to stress this right from the start.
    
    	My kids lived through it.  It was very trying, especially on me. 
    But if you don't put your foot down NOW, you'll be in BIG trouble later
    on.
    
    	Just my opinion.
    
    
    						jean

    RE: .3
    
    You sit on a one-year old ???   They only weigh 20-25 lbs or so!!
    
    confused,
    carol

    
    Dottie,
    
    My son Joey is the same EXACT way (14 MO.)!  .2  - I try to spank on
    the hand or butt. but it just doesn't seem to work.  He'll go back to
    do what he was doing wrong.  Now when my husband corrects him all what
    he has to do is yell.  AND THAT'S IT!!  God forbid when he spanks him
    he would come running over to me, arms out and crying real sad.  My
    husband says I'm not firm enough, and I don't spank him hard enough to
    make him realize what he does wrong.  But I feel like I do.  He has a 
    lot of temper tantrums.  Last night for instance, picked him up from
    the sitters and all the little kids had these little hockey sticks and
    joey cried so hard cause it was the other kids turn.  I'm trying to
    teach him to share but its so hard, considering he doesn't have to at
    home.  Tempers consist of throwing himself on the floor, screaming and
    holding his breath.  His new thing is now if I correct him and say do
    you want a spanking?  He say (UH) real mean and holding his hand up
    in the air as if to give me a spanking.   I guess I'm not the only mom
    that puts up with it.
    
    
    -Nadine
    

    The day Ian turned 1 this behaviour began for us also.  We found that
    tantrums occur far more often when the child is tired or hungry or
    both.  
    Its ok to be really mad, and that is a very hard thing to change,
    especially in a toddler.  However, what is not alright is for the child
    to do him/herself damage.  Try giving a special soft thing to the kid
    to bang his/her head on, rather than banging the floor (a cushion
    perhaps).  Later on its a useful thing to do when they start taking
    swings at you, or sinking their teeth in, or whatever.  
    Failing Ian's ability to take control of himself, we do two things.
    He gets put in his crib to scream, where he cannot hurt himself and he
    receives no attention from us, or we take him completely out of the
    situation, perhaps for a walk outside to find flowers, or bees, or ...

    This is the time when I took Robby's playpen and emptied it of toys,
    and sort of left it in the dining room.  Then, when he would begin to
    throw a fit, I would explain that if he was going to be angry, he had
    to do it in the playpen, (as I wasn't going to be party to it).  This
    was a precursor to going into his room (at 3/4) and being angry in
    there.  
    
    He could wail, rant, rave, whatever in the playpen.  Every few minutes
    I would stick my head in as ask if he was ready to play nice. 
    Eventually, he would calm down and I would pick him up and we would
    "talk" about it.  He finally got the message that I would not come to
    him until he stopped screaming.  A couple of times he nearly passed out
    from the force of his anger, etc... but I stuck to my guns.  
    
    Like all things, this to shall pass.  All kids this age are beginning
    to associate their wants with the world around them, and they are
    discovering that they can communicate these wants.  There is simply no
    understanding of the greater picture for little ones.  The best way to
    handle the situation is to diffuse it the best you can.  Remove the
    temptation, place them somewhere they can't get hurt, and let he anger
    run it's course.  
    
    When they get a little older, then it is time to introduce
    "appropriate" anger.  When Robby pitches a fit (at 4 years old), he is
    sent to his room.  Not as punishment, but to allow him the privacy of
    his anger.  For example, this past weekend he got angry, and began to
    shout at me.  I sent him to his room, and he slammed the door shut and
    trashed his room.  Every 10 minutes I would ask him if he was ready to
    talk about it.  After about 20 minutes, he came out, and said he was
    ready "'pologize'.  So he did, we talked about it, we hugged, then I
    sent him back to his room to clean up the mess.  In fact, we talked
    about how, if you tear apart the bookcase, then Mommy can't read with
    you until it is all put back together.  I often remind him that
    whatever mess he makes he will have to clean up (Mom helps, and we use
    the opportunity to talk about it somemore...).
    
    The fits will pass, but this is the time to begin the setting of the
    limits (to the behavior) as well as introduce someplace that they can
    be as angry as the like.
    
    Sue
    
    

Dottie,

I am experiencing some of the same manipulation (she cries Mommy and reaches
out to me, even if Daddy is WANTING to hold her, and I just can't turn her
away), so I will also be interested in the responses.

One thing that worked for her stubbornness and endless determination to do
what SHE wanted, was for me to explain to her WHY.  Not just say "NO" or
"Don't touch" - but say "Please don't change the channel, Mommy is watching
that channel," or "Please don't touch the glass (stereo) cabinets, they can
break.  Go open YOUR doors" (she has her own cabinet in our entertainment
center.  I started this several months ago and even now (19 mos.) I have to
give her a reason to not go up/down the stairs, hand me something she wants
to keep ("Give the knife to Mommy, it is sharp and can hurt you."), etc... or
she just won't budge.   I know she probably doesn't understand the reasons I
give her, but I think she understands that there IS a reason.

Another thing I have resorted to lately is my tone of voice.  I will ask her
to come here (i.e. for a diaper change, etc.) one or two times, then I will
say very sternly "Katelyn come here NOW." and she comes RUNNING!  She doesn't
want to take off her nightgown in the mornings (one morning I sent her to
school in it!), and pins her arms down so I can't get it off.  I'll ask her
twice to help me, then say "Katelyn we are taking off your gown NOW, and we
aren't going to play this game." in my voice, and up go the arms!

This might not work for you, but it might be worth a try.  Now if someone could
tell me how to keep her in her bed at night....... (she just started chasing me
out of the room when I put her to bed, or coming into my room in the middle of
the night)

Good Luck!
Kristen

    I liked the part about sitting on the child, too bad AJ would probalby
    just laugh at it, since that's the way he and dad will "roughouse", Dad
    gets on top (more like perched on all 4's) and let AJ think he just
    threw daddy over and AJ's got him pinned to the floor.  I've tried
    explaining and reasoning with AJ, it works most of the time.  What
    seems to happen is he'll do something wrong and I'll ask him if he
    knows what he did wrong, and he'll usually be able to tell me what he did 
    and why he shouldn't have done it.  (I shouldn't touch the stove because it
    will give me a booboo)  But that's probably a year or two away for your
    one year old.
    
    I guess that's another point, in our house it seems I do most of the
    discipining, dad seems to be a playmate or buddy.  The times that dad
    either yells or swats his butt it when it really get a reaction.  Is
    that the way most families are?  I hate being the toughie, and dad the
    pal, but it seems AJ just tunes me out when I discipline, so I ask my
    husband to discipline when AJ refuses to listen-to get results.
    
    The other thing I've been dealing with, and would like feedback on, is
    when he does something deliberately wrong such as slamming a door or 
    running when he's told to walk, I make him go back to where he started
    from and do it right.  I guess it's working...so far.
    

    Yep, we went through that too.  Tantrums and all.  It started around
    11 mos.  The running, crying, throwing head back, going limp and
    falling to the floor.  Yes, Yes, it wasn't that long ago, and it is
    still a vivid memory.  We still have our occasional fits at 13 1/2 mos.
    but they aren't as bad.  We did what reply .7 did.  I'd put him in his
    play pen (which he doesn't use, but to store toys) and leave him in the
    dining room alone.  It really works.  They can't get hurt there and a
    couple toys in the pen calm him down.  It's really curbed the frequency
    of his "fits".  Another thing that had something to do with that
    particular period is that he was getting ready for a growth spurt
    (which you see in retrospect).  Their little bodies are full of tension
    just before a spurt.  Looking back, it made alot of sense of that
    brutal time.
    
    I know things are calm "for now", We're going to bask in this calmness
    for now, but tomorrow? Who knows, he may just get back into that
    terrible two syndrom again.
    
    Roll with the punches and try to be firm at the same time,  it may save your
    sanity.  It's done wonders for ours!
    
    Nancy

    These are just some things that worked with our kids.  I don't
    know whether any of them will apply to your situation -- but for
    what it's worth:
    
    I found that time out is the most effective way to deal with a
    tantrum.  As other notes have pointed out, it's not only the
    initial infraction that's unacceptable, it's the tantrum that
    follows.  You need to make plain that you aren't going to deal
    with her until she calms down.  I liked the playpen idea.  Or the
    bathtub, to make it easier to clean up after her :)
    
    The first time is probably going to be pretty awful on all of you. 
    But giving in to the threat of throwup can get you into an
    unpleasant double bind like the one my sister-in-law's in.  She
    was always so worried about her son crying until he vomited that
    now he can get out of anything just by saying quietly, without
    temper or resentment, "Mommy, I feel sick."  And he really does
    feel sick; he's not consciously manipulating.  He has just learned
    that if he's about to throw up, Mommy will drop everything
    (including her job and his sister's needs) to tend to his needs,
    and she'll remove him from the painful situation.  
    
    I think it's very important that you talk to all the adults who
    deal with JA and make sure you're all handling the same situations
    in the same way.  Transferring disciplinary authority -- the "wait
    until your father gets home" syndrome, no matter which parent is
    the heavy -- often leads to one parent being regarded as the bad
    guy and one being regarded as ineffective.  Inconsistency is even
    worse.  You end up with the child playing the adults off against
    each other.  "But Daddy lets me," or even worse, not telling and
    going to the other parent to ask for what the first parent just
    denied.  (This will keep happening; you have to deal with it
    repeatedly.  My 16-year-old just got caught in the act a couple of
    weeks ago.)
    
    Kristen's suggestion of explaining why the child shouldn't do
    something also works very well.  Most of the things we want to
    keep toddlers from doing are to protect them or us from injury, or
    to protect the house.  Most of the time most toddlers aren't being
    deliberately mean, they just don't know that indulging their own
    pleasure can cause pain for themselves or others.
    
    I also found that removing the child from the situation before it
    reached a confrontation point worked well.  For instance, I'd stop
    Steven when he started heading for the refrigerator, not when he
    started throwing the yogurts on the floor.  And I wouldn't just
    say "No, don't open the door," I'd move him while I said it.  I
    figured that saying it without moving him gave him a chance to
    decide to disobey, while just moving him taught him that no meant
    no.
    
    I hope some of these suggestions are helpful.
    
    --bonnie

    I entered a note in Parenting-V2 on "time-out" and got all sorts of
    useful advice, including the name of a book that might be of help (I
    never bought it though). Go back and check it out.
    
    My thoughts on your note:
    
    o 	I think the most difficult thing for each of us as parents is that
    	we try to reason with very young toddlers as if they were adults.
    	It helps me alot to remember that they look at the world very
    	differently, and not as logically as we do.  Reasoning does not
    	work, especially in the throes of a temper tantrum.
    
    o	I don't know what you mean by impossible or unrealistic demands.
    	In many instances, immediate diversion can avoid a tantrum, or
    	lessen its intensity. I often make a new game up, on the spot, when
    	I see a battle coming.
    
    o	Time out is really the most effective thing for us - I like the
    	reply that suggested using the playpen. We use Ryan's rocking chair
    	in his bedroom. Quickly and as calmly as we can, we sit him in
    	there, ask him to calm down, and then try to discuss.
    
    o	Another option is to check out Penelope Leach, in "From Birth to
    	Age Five". She advocates holding a hysterical child til they calm
    	down (similar to the "sit on the stomach" reply).
    
    o	My doctor, early on, cautioned me that toddlers scare themselves
    	when they get so worked up. Don't concede to the demand, but
    	definitely consider holding or hugging her after a few minutes
    	of the tantrum's duration.  I wouldn't wait til she's ready to
    	vomit or anywhere near an hour -- in a toddler's mind, an hour
    	is like days....
    
    o	For the battles around nap/sleeptime, try Ferber's book that has
    	been mentioned and praised many times in here. She's obviously
    	a sleep fighter, and you may have to work with that, rather than
    	force it.
    
    Best of luck. The interesting thing you WILL see is that these tantrums
    at 12-13 months abate quite suddenly, tend to come back at 18-19
    months, and then recede again til sometime in the two's. We're in the
    throes of them lately and it's not fun.
    
    

    re .4
    
    Well, you don't really sit on the child, you kind of straddle him/her
    and sit across their pelvis.  Which, by the way is very strong, but
    naturally, you wouldn't put all your weight on, just enough to keep the
    child contained.  Also, it's best to do it on a carpeted floor so the
    child has nowhere to go.
    
    I used to play with them this way too, tickling, etc., but when they're
    in the throws of a tantrum, they don't think of this as the same thing
    as playing.  
    
    I guess the jist of it is that you're containing the child, keeping
    him/her from hurting him/herself and you.  And what kid wants to be
    contained at THAT age???
    
    
    jean

    With three kids 5 and under, we seem to have always been just going
    into, in the middle of, or just coming out of a tantrum stage with all
    of our kids! It's tough. Plain and simple. Hard to believe the amount
    of sheer force of will and determination these tiny little bodies can
    exert. And the headaches they cause.
    What we do:
    From the first tantrum they ever throw, we make it clear its not
    allowed to do that. Anger is a valid emotion, slamming toys and bodies
    onto the floor is not allowed. So what if they do it anyway? We pick
    them up and hold them till they stop. If this worsens the tantrum (it
    can!), we put them down, tell them to come get us when they are done,
    and leave them alone. We have ben through the holidng the breath, the
    throwing up, etc. Very gross, but if we'd allowed them to use this to
    cause us to give in, it would have been an extremely effective weapon
    in their arsenal. To anser you: yes, I'd let them throw up in their
    crib. And then, when they were calm, they'd have to help clean
    themselves and theri cribs up (adapt to their particular age
    capabilities). Yes, I'd let them bang their heads, but I'd move them to
    a floor with a thick rug and insist they do it there. Most kids
    (excepting those who are truly wmotionally or mentally disturbed) will
    not harm thenselves severely, but may give themselves a bump or bruise.
    But if you don't give in, they will stop....it hurts! If you give in,
    you actually perpetuate the behavior, as it then becomes a tool to
    manipulate you, and they will continue to do it. If they realize it
    won't work, they will stop.
    We do spank for deliberate, claculated dispbedience....but not as a
    last resort or after yelling, etc. It goes like this: "Joshua, if you
    do ________________, you will get spanked". Josh ethen proceeds to do
    whatever it was he wasn't supposed to. In a calm controlled manner, he
    is then told, "go into the study and wait for me". This is my (or my
    wife's) opportunity to calm down if we are at all upset/angry. We
    never, I repeat *NEVER* spank in anger. That would be completely
    counterproductive....it would be using our anger to stop their anger.
    When calm we go into him and say, "What did you do wrong?" He must
    admit his fault and apologize. He then gets a preset number of spanks
    (most everything is just 2 whacks...unless a repeat offense and then it
    may be 3). Followed by a prolonged hug, cuddling, etc., assurance of
    our love for him. We make it quite cleart that he is forgiven and that
    it was what he did and not him that we didn't like.
    A child older than yours (from about 18-24 months on) might also get a
    spanking for throwing a tantrum, if he didn't control himself when
    warned to stop....but we had already laid the groundwork for that.
    Advice for you? Stand rooted-to-the-ground kind of firm. No backing
    down, unless you think you've made a very bad call, and even then its
    hard, cause at her age she won't perceive the difference between your
    reconsidering your decision, and her being able to make you give in.
    Let her be angry, throw up, hold her breath (they will start to breathe
    on their own immediately, if they should hold it long enough to pass
    out), bang her head (within limits), etc. And then when she calms down,
    make it clear she still has to do what you wanted. And then be prepared
    to have it start up all over again! It will most likely be terrible for
    a few days, and then should diminish drastically, with occasional
    intense retesting of mom and dad's resolve. Don't give in!
    Hope I've helped and not confused the issue!
    --dave-- 
                                                                    

    Sort of related to temper tantrums, as I see it, is whining.  To me
    whining is like the proverbial nails on the chaulkboard.  It sends up a
    red flare.  We have a rule related to whining in our house, If you
    whine you get nothing. (until you've stopped whining)  Just as AJ, when
    he starts whining, whether we're with someone or not, I simply ask him
    "what do you get when you whine"  His answer is firm "Nothing!"  Then
    he has to ask for it the right way, and the request may still be denied
    if it's dangerous or unreasonable.
    
    He's tried laying down on the floor in an effort to get attention, we
    usually try a good natured "what ARE you doing...GET UP!!"  I can only
    guess it works due to the tone of voice, not a parent type tone, but
    something that sounds like a question raised out of curiousity.  He
    usually gets up with a sheepish grin.
    
    Hope this helps
    Lyn