Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Difficult situation....
    
    I would now do 2 things if it were me. First have your daughter tell
    her friend that she is welcome anytime at your house. We may need some
    time away to sort out what's going on. If your daughter suggests it, it
    is out of friendship (not pity, safety, authority, etc).
    
    The second thing I would do, if you feel close enough to the situation
    and it is appropriate, ask the girl if she wants you to get involved in
    making sure the beating doesn't happen again. If she says to stay out
    of it, respect her wishes. She needs to find an adult to trust right
    now. But do let her know you are willing to help anytime she requests
    it. You don't want her to resent you or your daughter for trying to
    help, even though it is for her own good. 
    
    I'm sure this kid is scared right now and wondering if she says something 
    or reports it, will she be placed in a foster home (I'd be scared witless 
    if I thought I would lose my whole world because I spoke up). And even 
    worse, if she doesn't say anything, will these beating become common-place. 
    
    It's nice to know there are still neighbors who really care!!! 
    
    Andrea 

         I would report this to the division of child services.  This is a
    child abuse case and should not go unreported.  A phone call to them
    anonomously will prompt a social worker to go over and investigate the
    situation.  The mother could be held responsible along with the older
    sister for not stopping the sister from beating her younger sister.  My
    heart goes out to your daughter's friend.
    
    Diane
    

    
    
    Be careful  .. this may not be child abuse at all.
    
    I totally agree with letting this girl know that she is welcome in
    your house anytime and that you'll try to help with any problem, but
    before you accuse anyone of child abuse, you should make sure that you
    really have the complete story.
    
    All the basenoter said was that she *thought* the girl said she had
    been beaten.  She also said she went into the living room with her to
    talk.  Wouldn't it have been apparent at that time if she had really
    been beaten?  What did her guidance counselor say?  It doesn't appear
    that any other problems had been reported to the school (or at least
    the base noter didn't mention any).
    
    Don't confuse being *beaten* with a teenager getting a well-deserved 
    slap for defiance.  If this girl was having a fight with her mother,
    she may very well had pushed her mother to the brink, and wasn't
    *beaten*, just slapped.  I don't think a quick slap is the same as 
    child abuse.  If it is, then only those of us who have NEVER slapped
    or spanked our kids would not also be guilty.
    
    If you do turn this woman in (AND BY ALL MEANS DO IF YOU REALLY THINK
    SHE'S BEING ABUSED !!), and it turns out to be just a teenage threat, be
    prepared for it to have an effect on your relationship with this
    neighbor and on your daughter's relationship with this friend.
    
    Just my opinion.  Only you know the girl and her mother and I'm sure 
    you'll do what you think is best.   Good luck ....
    
    	-Kathy

    I have to agree with .3, this may not be child abuse as we think of it. 
    I can remember a time when I was about 16, and my older brother slapeed
    me right across the face.  Sent me flying off my chair and onto the
    floor.  Of course I was furious, sobbing with anger and humiliation. 
    But over time I realized I had just pushed him too far, he had been
    left in charge by my mother of five of us, he asked me to do something
    (like set the table or something) and I said no, about five times. 
    Finally he hauled back and wallopped me.  Had I fled to a neighbor's at
    the time, it easily could have been mis-perceived as child abuse.
    
    You need the WHOLE story, from both parties, before a serious
    allegation like that should be made.  And you may not get it.
    

    I'm trying to summarize what I see here, and what I see is this;
    The girl seems to have been physically punished by someone, whether it
    was a sibling or parent.  She seems to have come to your house to seek
    help, you did just that.  Her mother came after her and as you said
    took her home "protesting".  If the child was unwilling to go home, and
    expressed fear Of ANY kind, then that's abuse. 
    
    Bottom line, abuse doesn't have to be Physical...Mental abuse is as, if
    not more damaging.  This needs to be investigated NOW!!  You shouldn't
    have to worry future implications, this girl may not have a future if
    she is injured or worse!  Sounds like family counceling might be an
    answer before it's too late.
    Lyn
    

    You said 'if the child expresses fear of any kind then thats abuse'.
    Hmm.  I can sure remember times when I did something wrong as a kid
    and I was scared xxxxless on the way home or whatever.  THAT was abuse?
    
    You can't be saying that. Can you?  I don't think fear is a valid sole
    criteria for child abuse, do you!?
    
    Jeff

    Sorry about the confusion, it was my EMT training getting in the way
    again.  The legal definition says "ongoing" physical or mental abuse is
    enough to warrant an investigation. (the form specifically is called a
    51A report) I also believe that unless you are a "professional" such as
    teacher, guidance councelor, social worker, health care provider etc,
    you cannot make the report anonymously.  Professionals are mandated by
    law to report any cases of susupected abuse, I'd push back on the
    guidance councelor or teacher for help.
    
    Unfortunately times have changed since we were growing up.  I too was
    scared sh***less to go home several times after school, but that's not
    the abuse we're talking about here IMO.  Someone told me recently that
    if I spanked my child in public I could be charged with child abuse,
    seems some things DO get carried too far.
    Hope this helps
    Lyn

This is a response from the basenoter:
    
    ====================================================================
    
    I did indeed call the guidance counselor the next day.  He said he had
    been counseling this family for a while and was aware that there were
    some problems.  He pointed out some stress points in the family that I
    was already aware of and said that if the girl didn't come in to see
    him that he would call her in.  I saw him socially a few days ago and
    he took me aside to tell me that the girl had come to see him and had
    been examined by the school nurse.  He didn't go into details about
    what was happening now, but did say that the situation was being
    monitored.

    I have told my daughter to pass on to this girl that she is welcome in
    our home at ANY time and under ANY condition.

    Also, I have seen the girl a few times, and she seems cheerful.  I keep
    hoping this was an isolated incident, but am keeping my eyes and ears
    open.

    More questions:

    I was told that if I knew there was something happening in that house
    and I did not inform the authorities, that I would be liable for some
    sort of legal charges.  I assume that contacting the guidance counselor
    qualifies as informing the authorities?

    I was also told that if I let the girl stay in my house overnight
    without telling the parents that I would be guilty of abduction.  So,
    assuming the girl can make it into my home without her mother knowing
    where she is, and I felt she needed protecting, then I should call the
    police and then the mother?

    Be careful, your on legal thin ice I think. Expecially allowing the
    girl into your house  'under any condition at any time'.  I am not
    saying you shouldn't be involved, I am saying that I think you should
    be clear about the risks you are taking before you take them.  Jeff

    Jeff may be right, I am waiting to hear back from my friends at the
    Police station before giving wrong advise.  Will keep you posted.
    

    Keep in mind that whatever we tell you here is only our opinion
    and isn't a substitute for legal advice.  Remember too that it
    might be different in your state -- sometimes even in your town.  
    
    In NH, I think reporting to the guidance counsellor counts as
    "authorities," but I'm not positive. 
    
    What little experience I have is from 15 years ago in the state of
    Montana -- when my mother used to give shelter and comfort to
    various of my brother's lost-kitten friends.  I think it saved one
    girl from suicide, though my mother did get a pretty stern lecture
    from the juvenile department about "interfering in situations she
    didn't understand" and "setting back the work of trained
    professionals."  Never mind that the trained professional didn't
    believe that the girl was pregnant by her father . . . but I
    digress.
    
    --bonnie

As Bonnie said, we are not lawyers, so definitely consult one if you plan to
take (or not take) action.

I had always been told that teachers, counselors (school counselors), doctors,
etc...  were the ones REQUIRED to report suspected abuse.  Everyday citizens
are not required to do so (although your own moral codes may require it).  Of
course this contradicts what you and some others have been told, so definitely
check on it!

As for having her over to your house..... I would say that if you kept her
overnight and withheld information from her parents (or kept her from returning)
that you could get in trouble.  There are shelters for such purposes.  But if
you let her come over and lean on you whenever she needs to, I can't see how
you could get in trouble for it........ (I may be naive, who knows?)

Good luck to you, your daughter, and especially her friend!

Kristen

    Kristen, 
    
    It's not that what we've been told contradicts your understanding
    of the situation, it's that the situation varies from state to
    state.  
    
    You're probably perfectly right for what the law is in Texas. 
    I've always been under the impression that Massachusetts has a
    similar law that covers only professionals who work with kids, not
    everyday citiziens.   But the laws of NH do require ANYONE who
    suspects abuse to report it.  I haven't found a lot of people,
    even helping professionals, who know who we're supposed to report
    it to, or what happens if we don't, but it is required.  
    
    That's why it's important for anyone who's faced with a situation
    like this to check out the laws in their own area.
    
    --bonnie

    RE: a few
    
    One of the real problems of our society IMHO is that we tend to be
    judgemental.  I will be the first person to try to help when I suspect
    abuse. But within reason we must be careful not to take incidents out
    of context.  I agree that the base noter's situation suggests a greater
    problem than just fear due to a single action.  However, I would also
    be a bit cautious about intervening in the general case.
    
    I know of a mother that was charged with child abuse because someone
    witnessed her child being spanked for misbehavior.  The spanking was
    not severe (in my opinion it shouldn't have happened anyway, but...)
    The embarassment that the entire family went through was devastating. 
    The family moved to another area because of this one incident.  The
    case was thrown out of court by the way.  The "witness" was somewhat of
    a religious fanatic that had lost a child due to other family problems.
    
    Moral of the story is just to be careful.  Repeated incidents should be
    reported.  Spot incidents should be recorded so that if there are
    further incidents, the pattern can be reported to the proper people.
    
    Dan