Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Hi Kate,,
    
    
    	I simply stopped doing all the chores.  The house turned into a
    mine field within days.  And I gritted my teeth and held out.  
    
    	Predictably, there was a good sized "hoot and holler" about it...
    We got the issues on the table, and then moved on from there.
    
    Now we have specific times devoted to specific chores, and we share
    them. 
    
    
    	Worked for us
    

    Touchy subject in my house!!!!
    
    I'd start the conversation with, "Hunny, I'm going to hire cleaning
    lady to come in and help with the household chores. She'll cost about
    $30 a week but I need help right now". Since he is working so much, it
    does seem hard to ask him to help out. Maybe if a cleaning lady does fit
    in your budget it will just spark in his mind that you cannot do
    everything alone regardless of how much or how little he works. If he
    doesn't go nuts over the thought of a cleaning lady, get one. If he
    does, then just explain that if he helped for 2 hours (or whatever)
    every Saturday and helped with making lunches, that the things would 
    get done and you wouldn't be run so ragged. 
    
    Or maybe take another approach and tell him you are really having a
    difficult time dealing with all the household stuff while he is working
    so hard. Ask what he thinks you should do - let it all slide until
    after Columbus day, get help, etc? Present it as you being the one
    "falling apart" and show no resentment toward picking up the extra
    duties while he is working longer hours but you both have physical
    limitations.
    
    I think right now both your "tempers" are pushed pretty far so maybe
    introducing an outside individual (a cleaning woman) won't put "blame"
    on anyone. Don't add insult to injury whatever. It would be hard to
    start this conversation without pointing fingers.
    
    Good luck with a difficult situation. 
    
    Andrea
                

    I do the same thing that .1 does.  My husband and I both like a very
    clean house, but I certainly can't do it all.  When I notice that he's
    been slacking off, I simply let things go and if he has the nerve to
    comment on it, I tell him that I just can't do it all myself.  Usually,
    though, he takes this as a sign that he needs to help out more and
    will drag out the vaccuum cleaner.
    
    Good luck...  I know how you feel.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    
    Also a touchy subject at the Stolicny's.   Mike is pretty oblivious 
    to dirt and disorder and needs to be asked to do things.   This 
    blows my mind...but when I do ask, he is usually pretty good about
    helping.    
    
    Ultimately, I ended up hiring a cleaning person who comes in every
    two weeks.   That means I still have to do some housework :-( but
    always know that the floors will be scrubbed at least every other
    week!  This has lifted a big burden from me and is well worth the
    amount spent.
    
    The other thing that I just did was went on a three-day business
    trip.   Mike has a new appreciation for just what it is that I'm
    doing in the kitchen after Jason is in bed, how difficult it is to
    get a meal on the table with 25 lbs hanging from your knees, etc.
    
    Hope you find something that works for you...
    
    Carol

    Kate:
    
    I did a combination of everything in the previous notes!
    
    First off, I, too, bit**ed until I was blue_in_the_face and mad_at_the_
    world.  When you're tired, stressed out, overwhelmed and the allegators
    are closing in, the last thing you need to do is waste that smitchen of
    energy bit**ing!!
    
    What I did figure out (with time, of course!) was:
    
    .  My standard of living and Jim's standard of living are miles apart!
       So, we found a grey area -- he improved a little and I loosened up
       a little.
    
    .  Figure out the "chores" that you don't mind doing ... and the
       "chores" he doesn't mind doing ... and then divide up the ones
       neither of you like doing.  (e.g. Jim doesn't mind bathing the
       baby and I'd rather clean the kitchen ...  while I'm cooking
       dinner, Jim sets the table ...).  That way, you're not spending
       the "bulk of your time" doing ALL THOSE THINGS you DETEST!
    
    .  Another bone of contention is ... don't sip your wine and read
       the New York Times while I'm juggling several chores!  So ...
       we work together to get the work done and then we BOTH relax
       (doing what we each enjoy!).
    
    .  A chore list is not cast in concrete, either!  I may do a little
       extra today and he may do a little extra tomorrow.  We acknowledge
       each other's contribution and effort, too.   ... And we don't need
       a list on the refrigerator to remind us of what we need to do!,
       we are both WELL AWARE of what has to "minimally occur" before
       day's end!  So we never considered INTIMIDATION (via a 
       "honey-dew" list!).
    
    .  Rather than bit**ing, I try to "ask".  (e.g. Jim, would you please
       toss JA in the tub while I finish up the dishes ... or would you
       rather finish up here and I'll toss her in the tub? -- I KNOW he'll
       opt for the tub, but it's a choice ... not a flat out demand).
    
    .  Not sure what age your tyke is, Kate, but another thing that helped
       us was when JA got old enough to:
    
    	.  join in  -- give her a carrot stick while you're peeling them
    		    -- let her fold a towel, while you fold the heap
    
    	.  keep herself entertained (e.g. introduce her to Sesame Street, 
    	      rotate the toys (so she thinks she's got something "new" 
    	      to discover!), give her "her very own space" -- her room,
              with a toybox, toys on the floor, little rocking chair,
              turn on Teddy Rexpin -- let her confine the mess to "her
              space".  Simple things like:  old telephones and broken
              calculators will keep their minds confused for hours!
    
    I was able to get MY work done much easier and faster when I didn't
    have JA tugging on my shirt-tail ... AND I could "attempt" to confine
    the mess  (Jim/I have straightening up JA's room to a science now ...
    it's looks like a tornado hit, yet all three of us (yes, JA, too!)
    can pick it up in 10 minutes flat!).
    
    And ... the minute I mentioned "Merry-Maids", Jim's eyeballs saw $$
    signs (I didn't have to tell him how cheap their rate is!) - he already
    had the bucket and mop in hand!
    
    For me, I saw a marked improvement in Jim's attitude and contribution
    after "I" changed my approach from one of bit**ing to one of asking
    (not begging, just a respectable "ask").  Our relationship also improved
    drastically when I threw away the scorecard (eg. I bathed the baby 3X 
    this week and you only bathed her ONCE!).
    
    Many NOTERS told me to "loosen up" and ENJOY my baby.  At the time I
    said "sure ... WHEN!".  And then I realized how often I dust, how often
    I do laundry, how often I iron, how often I do yardwork ... and how
    little I hug and play with my baby!  Guess what? ... my priorities sure
    got reshuffled!  (For anyone who knows me, they'll tell you how
    difficult it was for me to park the bucket and mop!).  It used to
    bother me to see dust on my furniture and smashed-baby-food splattered
    on my kitchen floor ... but now I just joke about it.  When my feet
    stick to the kitchen floor, then I wash it (and not a day sooner!).
    
    The grey area Jim/I agreed on was:  dust/vacumn once a week and try to
    keep the joint picked up (hang up jackets, put away shoes and book
    bags, dirty clothes down the laundry shoot) ... and daily we make the
    beds (together), dishes in the dishwasher and pick up the toys before
    bedtime.  So the place isn't clean, just presentable.  We try to tackle
    the big chores (yardwork, windows ...) together ... one mows while 
    the other weeds (and JA picks the flowers out of the flowerbed!).
    
    Good luck, Kate ... you're NOT alone!
    
    Dottie
    

    It must be something in the AIR because I've just had this conversation
    with a friend of mine. 
    
    My husband works 2 jobs, one of them solely on commission (so he's 
    additionally edgy) and lately I've been left holding not only the ball, 
    my 3 children (ages 4 and under), but the dirty laundry as well!  The 
    suggestion of holding out until the other person notices is really
    difficult if the mess makes you miserable.  And what if they don't notice? 
    Then you're more unhappy than you were before.  What I did was make a list 
    of all the home tasks I do during the day. 
    I gave the list to my husband and asked him to chose which ones he would
    like to do.  I gave him "1st dibs" so that he could do the "fun ones"
    like put dishes in the sink, garbage on the porch, read the kids a
    bedtime story and leave the uglies for me like dinner, cleanup, laundry,
    kitchen floor, etc.   Once he saw the list he couldn't much argue that
    there was a lot to do and selected a few choice tasks.  It isn't over,
    I know, but at least he's tuned in to the problem. 
    
    Sometimes, we do the chores together.  That way, at least we're in the 
    vicinity of one another and can at least "be together" even if it's 
    cleaning up the kitchen.
    
    P.S.  I did put on the list "Ask Steve to help".  I did it in a joking
    way, but I wanted him to understand that having to ask him to help is, 
    in itself, a task.

    We do only tidying and dishes during the week, and on Saturday or
    Sunday morning clean the whole house together and then go out for
    breakfast - the reward! :-).
    	Linda

    Bob and I worked out the division of labor on the cooking/cleaning side
    of the coin a long time ago, and don't tend to even think about it too
    much any more.  It sure helped a lot when we each stopped thinking
    about those kinds of chores as "Norma's-Work-That-Bob-Helps-With"! and
    instead just viewed it as stuff that needed doing.  This critical step
    was *much* more difficult for me than it ever was for Bob.  Still is
    sometimes when I'm in one of my guilty mother moods.
    
    The part we still have a hard time with comes under the heading of
    repair and maintenance tasks.  Bob is a wonderful, loving and very
    intelligent man who does't know oo-foo from shinola about plumbing,
    carpentry, electricity, automobiles, etc.  I'm not a whole lot better
    but I am much more mechanically inclined and will, at least, research a
    project to see if I/we can tackle it or whether we need to pay someone
    to do it.  He can handle tools quite well, if someone tells him where
    to make the cut or drive the nail, so I will get help once the project
    is underway.  But all of the planning, buying and scheduling falls to
    me and it's wearing me down.  Our house is now three years old and some
    stuff needs fixing.  
    
    We're talking about it but I'm not sure how to get him beyond thinking
    that making the statement that " The framis is broken" is going far
    enough.....
    
    Norma 

    My husband and I play a game of doing the chores round the house. I
    write down everthing that has to be cleaned on a separate piece of
    paper, and fold them up and put them in a hat and we each choose until
    they are all gone. He does the cleaning for the ones he picks and I do
    the cleaning for the ones I pick.
    
    It seems to work for us. It fun and we laugh at who got what job.
    
    Lynne

    This is my pet peeve! My husband also works long hours and I do feel
    badly asking him to help out at night. However, I have found myself
    getting very resentful. So now I do what I can and let chores go
    that I cannot possibly do. When the house gets into bad enought
    shape (we both like it clean) and he starts complaining I remind
    him I cannot be super woman and he'll help out. This is not often
    enough in my books. This is one of my #1 stresses apart from my
    job. This will not be solved too easily for me.
    
    

I'm very lucky--my husband does a lot around the house (inlcuding most
cooking, his share of cleaning, and almost all maintenance/repair stuff).
He also works side jobs in addition to his regular job.  There have been a
few times, though, when I feel like I get not only my share of the 'house'
stuff, but most of the 'kid' stuff.  What I do is treat it very
matter-of-factly, just as a previous reply stated:  I'll say, "Do you want
to wash the dishes or give Alex a bath?"  The point being that this doesn't
get into finger pointing, just states that a lot has to be done, and now
how are we going to decide who does it so we can ALL relax.  Otherwise I
get resentful while he has no idea why or even that I'm mad--not a good cycle
to start!


Marty

    Thanx for the advice so far.  Any word from the men out there?
    
    I have confined "big cleaning" to the weekends.  I pick up the living
    room and hang up coats, put away shoes, etc., during the week, and
    save the vacuuming for the weekend.  The way the cat is shedding,
    however, this may have to change...  I try to sweep the kitchen
    and dining room floor every night, but I often blow that off, too.
    I like a clean house as much as the next person, but I'm trying
    to relax my standards -- such as they are -- Mother always said
    I was a lousy housekeeper!  Anyway, keep the suggestions coming,
    and I would really like to hear from the men how they would like
    their partners to approach them on this.
    
    

    re .0  And you want ANOTHER kid?  Talk about gluttons for punishment!

    How do you get him to help???  Withhold sex! (-;
    
    Seriously, the only way I ever got help with the house was by hiring
    it, and by my husband's suggestion!  Though it took years of "asking"
    him to "participate" in the household chores, he rarely did, and we
    eventually hired someone to come in every two weeks and go over the
    house top to bottom.  IT'S HEAVEN!!  It's worth the money to come home
    to a spotlessly clean house, full knowledge that within two weeks it'll
    be all messed up again, and cruise around looking at the dustfree
    furniture, the vacuumed carpets and fresh smelling bathrooms!!  If you
    can afford it, go for it!
    
    The list on the refrigerator thing never worked for us.  My hubbie is
    gone from 7am to 7 or 8 pm during the week.  The kids won't accept food
    from him (:*} ) 'cause he's never fed 'em before, and he doesn't know
    where the vacuum hangs out.  There's just no time!!
    
    I'm making light of this, cause I know how awful it can get, and how
    resentment can build over this subject.  It touches home to probably
    every one of us working couples.  You just have to work it out by
    whatever means works for you, and at that particular stage of your
    life.
    

I seem to remember this discussion in V2 as well.

Anyway, I guess I don't do the amount of cleaning that I should in our
house, but on the other hand, my standards were somewhat different from
my wife's and I had the ability to turn my back on housework and rarely
feel guilty.

When my wife was in hospital for 6 weeks last year, I played Mr Mom and
kept things ticking over.  I learned that there are some things that you
cannot turn your back on, but I did work out that there were times to do
things that still gave you the option of turning your back on some of them
at least until you were ready to do them.  Like the laundry ... the clothes
always were gathered in the commercial breaks of any program I watched between
10 and 11 pm and the washer went on about 11:10 ... The dishwasher was loaded
immediately after supper, but the table and kitchen counters cleaned at 11:15.
I was asleep by 11:45.  With a trip to the hospital and kids baths alternating
nights, this generally left 9:00 to 11:00 for me ... sometimes ironing ...
sometimes skimming the paper etc ... But it allowed me to keep some sanity
in a hectic life.

Now, Jane has discovered that she can do this kind of thing herself without
feeling too stressed out about it ... leaving work undone made her feel
bad ... and she became resentful of the chores and became terrible inefficient
at doing them.

We both know the jobs that need to be done, and we share them out on a
"needs to be done basis" ... sometimes I shirk them, and sometimes I pick up
a lot.

I guess what I'm trying to say in all these ramblings is you've got to set
realistic priorities on jobs, and not to be afraid of leaving some until
times that are convenient to you both.  Your husband will be far happier to
help you do a number of jobs say at 10pm if you've sat down with him for
an hour or two, than if you've plodded on alone at 8pm, made a brief appearance
for 10 minutes at 9 then back to work.

Not only is job demarcation important, but also when a job can be done.  If
a job doesn't REALLY need to be done at 8, but your husband would gladly do it
at 10, (when the baseball game is over!), then bend a bit!

Believe it or not your husband won't appreciate your martyrdom to chores ...
he's more likely to be frustrated by it.

Stuart

    the easy way out is....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    be a single parent.... then all the chores are yours - no arguing !
    
    On a less "smart-alec" tone, .15's advice is what keeps me sane (I am
    a single parent)

We divided up the chores at the time we were married...

He did the laundry, I did the ironing (he doesn't know how).
I set the table and did the cooking (he can't cook), he loaded the dishwasher
  (he used to complain that I didn't do it right.)
We alternated weeks cleaning the bathroom.
I mopped the kitchen floor, he took out the garbage.
I dusted, he vacuumed.   etc.

This pretty much worked out fine for about a year, until we bought a house and
had more stuff to do and clean.  Since he had to cut the grass or shovel the
driveway, I took over the laundry.  

He started working longer hours, and I would complain because he wasn't doing
his share.  He's the one who kept telling me to hire a housekeeper.  It was the
best thing I did.  (By the way, Dottie, Merry Maids are NOT cheap.)  I used
Merry Maids for a few months, but didn't like them.  It was infinitely cheaper
to hire a cleaning woman from the want ads of the local paper.  I pay $36/week.
Thats for 3 hours of cleaning, one day a week.

He still has chores to do, and I still have mine to do.  When he slacks off,
I just tell him I'm not going to iron his clothes. I'll iron my stuff and not
his.  This usually works, because he likes his clothes ironed.  (And it doesn't
bother me in the LEAST if his clothes aren't ironed.)

� �ori �

    A little input from the point of view of the household slob:
    
    I often don't even see what Neil considers to be a mess, and
    sometimes we quarrel about it because he sometimes feels like I'm
    lacking in committment toward the family and the home -- like I
    don't really care how we live.  I can understand why he feels that
    way, but it's not really true.  But if underneath you feel like he
    doesn't really care about you and the kids, that's not directly an
    issue about who does the chores, and it requires a lot of
    communication and give and take on both your parts.  I try to keep
    our shared space cleaner, and he tries not to lose his cool about
    it.  It appears that this kind of difference of attitude is much
    harder on the tidy person than on the messy one. 
    
    Another point of contention is that he likes things tidy but
    doesn't really care what's under the stove, while I want things
    clean but don't care if the toys are all over the floor and the
    end table is dripping magazines.  So I often feel imposed on by
    having to keep my house up to a standard that isn't mine and that
    I feel is ridiculously strict while he feels imposed on because if 
    the house is to be tidy, he has to do more than his share of the
    routine housework.
    
    The only way we've been able to deal with this is by regarding the
    maintenance of the household as a joint responsibility caused by
    the fact that we're a family and we have to have a place to live.  
    This means that all members of the family are expected to help
    maintain it to the extent of their abilities, and according to
    their interests.  

    We don't do the things that nobody cares about.  We don't make the
    beds in the morning and we don't iron -- I'd vote permanent press
    as the most important invention of this century.
    
    Steven, 6, sets the table for supper.  He needs help getting the
    plates out of the cupboard but has no trouble handling the rest of
    it.  Kat does the dishes and takes care of the cats.  Whoever is
    the next person going outside takes the garbage out. 
    
    But unless your kids are old enough to really help, just
    redistributing the chores isn't going to reduce the total amount
    of stress on the family unit.  The only thing that's going to
    really reduce the load is hiring somebody to help, either a
    cleaning person or someone to watch the kids while you clean.  A
    neighbor of mine who hates to cook and hates the hassle of trying
    to get a meal on the table while everybody's tired and crabby from
    a hard day at work or school hired a teenager to come in half an
    hour before they get home and cook dinner.  As soon as it's ready
    to serve, the cook leaves.
    
    --bonnie

    Some of you are going to get a chuckle from this, some of you are going
    to think I'm awful...
    I was waging a silent war with my husband, and one day went on strike,
    but only related to "his" items.
    I vacuumed the entire house, except for his den/office. We have two
    dogs with VERY long hair, and the tumbleweeds get frighteningly large
    at shedding time.  
    I did all the laundry except for his clothes.
    I washed all the dishes that I used, and put the ones he left on the
    table in his den. I figured he must have been saving them for something
    if he didn't put them in the sink?
    It didn't take him long to surmise what I did, and NEVER said a word.
    He hauled out the vacuum cleaner and cleaned his den, washed his
    clothes, and washed his dishes. Since then, he will vacuum once a week,
    I do the other two times (remember those dogs???). We take turns doing
    dishes. Whoever has a few moments will throw a load of laundry in, the
    other will fold and put away.  Once in a while he has a lapse and will
    use up the last of the milk or soda, leaving the empty bottle on the
    counter instead of throwing it away.  I will put the empty in his den,
    a reminder that he goofed again.
    One more thing - I only made My side of the bed, too!  That probably
    took more time than it was worth, but I got such smug satisfaction!
    
    Sarah
      

    I don't know how to start this one.  To be honest with you all,
    I prefer doing the housework by myself.  It's not that Ray can't/won't
    do/help with the work, but rather I like doing it myself.  We do
    have one agreement though - he does all the outside work (I hate
    bugs :-{).  Ray is a very neat and tidy person just as I.  He was
    in the Navy - maybe that set him on the road to cleanliness.  Ray
    works very long hours also and is always willing to help out when
    he gets home from work.  I never have to ask him for help, honest!
    Sometimes I have to pull the dish towel out of his hands so he won't
    dry dishes.  I'm forever telling him to sit down and relax.  I don't
    expect him to help me, he jsut does.  If he didn't help it would
    not bother me in the least.  We've been married for 8 years and
    it has been like this since the beginning.
    
    We have two girls, 4 and 8 mos.  Therfore, the housework can wait
    till Saturday morning!!  It's funny - sometimes Ray will come home
    from work and the kitchen will look like a tornado just went through
    and he will start picking up toys and whatever and I have to make
    him go and take a shower or something just to get him out of the
    way.  
    
    I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but that's just how he
    is.  I can't remember it ever being different.  I love him sooooo
    much and wouldn't traded him for anything in the world :-)!
    
    Denise

    This all sounds so familiar.  One idea that hasn't been mentioned is
    pro-actively preventing housework.  Some preventive measures can be
    made only at certain times in life, others are more flexible.  To wit:
    
    * Old dog died.  We got a new pup with short hair and little shedding.
    * Renovation time.  Kitchen (also our main house entrance) got a vinyl
      floor in a brick pattern that doesn't show dirt.  Living room floor
      got 1/2 stain-resistant carpet (clean spots with damp rag) and 1/2
      ceramic tile by woodstove (easy to sweep and mop).  
    * Most decorative nick-nacks (sp?) went into a glass-front cabinet.
      Only stuff out now are crystal clusters and a few candles.
    * Buy toilet paper, tissues, etc. by the carton (cheaper).  Keep an
      ample supply in each bathroom under the sink.
    * Get enough sheets and towels to delay washing until its a full load.
    * Several large plastic baskets in basement for laundry.  Bring it
      down when storage places upstairs get full, then sort into the 
      baskets - white towels, color towels, sheets, clothes by owner.  When
      full load is reached, wash.  Store upstairs in baskets ready to carry
      down.  They can be tucket into a corner of the closet.
    * Use paper cups, etc. in summer especially.  Re-use a unique mug for
      drinking water, for each person.  Less washing.
    * Designate storage space for re-cyclables, eg newspapers.  When
      straightening up, put recyclables in their spot, ready to got out.
    * Finally, ruthlessly evaluate all new purchases for ease of
       maintenance and know what the commitment is before buying.  Feel
      no guilt about re-giving gifts that bring more work than joy.
    
    Good luck on the never-ending quest.  
    
    Laura

    Herein, some labor-saving ideas when the work's just gotta get done.
    
    *  Buy all cleaning supplies in bulk at a warehouse store like BJ's.
       That's less hauling from the supermarket, and $$$ saved (@30%).
    *  Get janitorial cleaner in large jug, can be diluted 40:1 into spray
       bottles on each floor (kitchen, upstairs bath, laundry room).  To
       clean counters, spray and wipe.
    *  Sort wash in laundry room and store in baskets until there's a full
       load or it can't wait.  It's easier than handling each item.
    *  Put in a load when you  leave for work, transfer to dryer when you
       get home, and put another load in washer while you're there.  (Works
       only for stuff where wrinkles don't matter - t-shirts, jeans,
       towels, sheets, quilts, etc.)  Minimizes trips up and down stairs.
       If you rinse in cold water, it's less $$ and reduces wrinkling.
    *  For more delicate clothes (eg office attire), separate into smaller
       loads such as delicate wash (poly blouses, stockings) followed by
       knit wash.  Put ironing board & iron in laundry room.  As you pull
       dry stuff out of dryer one by one, you can iron it as needed.  Dry
       delicates on lowest heat to prevent or reduce wrinkling.  Buy mens
       shirts in poly-cotton blend only, NO 100% cotton.
    *  Put massage nozzle and hose in shower.  Spray shower and tub after
       use to prevent dirt buildup.  Also easier to rinse when cleaning.
    
    Now maybe one can look forward to an hour on the couch with a magazine.
    
    PS:  It was still impossible without a housecleaner twice a month.  We
    pay $50 in New Hampshire for 4-5 hours work.  What do other people pay?
    

    Here's some stuff hubby might not object to, at least less forcefully:
    
    *  Food shopping.  Or at least bringing stuff from car to kitchen.
    *  Buying meat.  My hus is the expert on meat so I encourage him.
    *  Cooking meat - roasts, grilling, etc.
    *  Shopping at wholesale warehouse.  And doing the hauling of thos
       huge containers and boxes.
    *  Handling recycling (eg newspapers) while he's hauling garbage out.
    *  Hauling laundry baskets up and down stairs.  
    *  Using the riding lawnmower/snowblower.  It's sort of a game.
       Sometimes.  It helps if I get on too, and let him take me for a
       spin.
    *  Bug-spraying the bushes.  Raking he won't do.  I do it for the
       exercize and then cut down on walking, etc.  Ditto for the fussy
       clean up of snow.  I hate having ice where you walk.
    
    I should have put in note .21 - NO bedspreads.  We go with quilts only. 
    He doesn't mind so much making the bed then.  Nor do I.  Baby will get
    quilts and sleeping bags.  Blankets only in guest room.
    
    Laura
      
    
    
    
    Also - no bushes that need clipping.  Perennials.  

    re .7
    
    And I assume your husband tells everyone how "lucky" he is that 
    you "help" him by working!!!  And I'll bet he has to "ask" you
    to go to work and "tell" you what to do since his "standards are
    higher"  :).
    
    Obviously this hits home for me.  When I have to "ask" my husband
    to "help", the certain implication is that I am "asking" him to
    "help" ME with MY job.  Same for having to "tell" him how to do it.
    Come on now, we are NOT dealing with children here.  These are
    grown-up adults with eyes that can see a mess and arms and legs
    that can clean up as well as any female arms and legs.  My mother
    just thinks it's the greatest thing that my husband does his own
    ironing.  I always tell her that I didn't know that the "how to 
    iron" gene didn't exist on the "Y" chromosome!  Also, this
    "you have higher standards of cleanliness" stuff is a major
    cop-out.
    
    Alas, things will never change until people start walking into
    others' houses and saying "boy, is HE a lousy housekeeper"!!
    
    Get help cleaning.  It's the only fair way out.

    Thanks for all the hints for making work easier!  I'd like to hear more
    - any others out there?
    
    Your last reply included quilts instead of bedspreads.  We use down
    comforters with sheet-material covers on them - these are the blankets
    and topsheets in one unit.  To make the bed, just shake the whole thing
    over the bed.  Sally, who is almost-5, pulls the comforter up to make
    her bed and it looks great.
    
    [is this the same as a duvet in Europe? ]
    
    To wash, just slip off the cover and wash.
    
    I make the covers out of sheet sets so that the kids can have fancy
    stuff that's changable - Sally had a Sesame Street set and now she has
    one that's a giant dollhouse pattern.  Very inexpensive way to change
    the look of the room.
    
    But the point is: it make bedmaking a 10-second task, which is the only
    way it would get done in my house.

    .24 ...  I LOVE your reply!
    
    - K

Hmmmmm ....  I'm not so sure about .24

I have a cousin who went around after her mother with a hairbrush to ensure
that the pile of the living room carpet was just so ... because her mother
didn't do a good enough job!  Don't tell me that different standards don't
make a difference.

Stuart

    I assume .24 was directed at me, since my .18 was -7 from it,
    rather than to .7 which is Linda mentioning that they reward
    themselves by taking themselves out to breakfast. 
    
    .24 seems to have missed my point TOTALLY.  
    
    I thought I said in so many words that housework is a joint
    responsibility by virtue of our being a family, not a
    responsiblity of either partner.  
    
    We're in a role-reversal kind of situation relative to the
    basenote.  Neil does well over half the housework.  I'm the one
    who has to be asked to help, and he's the one who feels put out
    because I don't help enough.  He doesn't feel put out because he
    has to do the housework but because I'm not doing my share.  And
    because tidy people tend to think that untidiness comes from
    neglect or indifference rather than different standards. 
    
    And different standards do make a difference.  "Clean" and "tidy"
    are very subjective.  I can remember scrubbing the dishes until
    they -- and having my mother redo them because they had a greasy 
    film.  It doesn't matter how clean the dishes, or the bathtub,
    actually are; if one person thinks it's not clean enough, and the
    other person thinks it's okay, you've got the makings of a
    domestic quarrel. 
    
    We don't iron because it doesn't matter to either of us.  I'm a
    tech writer, he's a s/w engineer, our wardrobe is shirt and jeans. 
    It's not because either of us has to be asked or because either of
    us lacks a gene for ironing.  If we had different jobs, or were
    different people, maybe we'd do the ironing, but not have pets so
    we didn't have to vacuum as often.  My point was that if nobody in
    the house cares whether a certain task is done or not done, then
    don't do it. 
    
    --bonnie

    Funny...  I saw .24 in a totally different light.  I saw it as
    tongue-in-cheek for the most part, but on a more serious note,
    I read that men shouldn't have to be asked to help out.  They
    should just take the initiative and clean something if it's
    dirty.  When you have to ask for help with the chores, you are
    then claiming ownership of the chores and it shouldn't be that
    way.  I particularly liked .24's ending...
    
    - K
    

    Yes, .24 is perfectly right.  I don't disagree with one single
    word she said.  I just don't see why she applied it to my note in
    particular????
    
    --bonnie

    It's reasonable for either partner not to have to be asked, but
    as has been mentioned a difference in standards does matter greatly
    as to whether a partner sees a job that needs doing or not.
    
    Sometimes too, it can become a habit to not do a chore that needs doing
    even when it hits you in the face.  It's not that you're leaving it
    for the other partner ... you just don't see the chore in the first
    place.
    
    There are really a number of issues at work here ...
    
       1.  Who does what chores ...
       2.  What chores need to be done and identifying them  (some are done
              regularly and some are done as needed)
       3.  When the chores should be done ...
       4.  How each partner feels about any given chores not being done
       5.  How each partner feels about the other partner doing or not
    	      doing chores
       6.  How each partner feels about how any given time period should
              be spent
    
    When you've worked out that little lot ... then you can more easily
    work out the who does what ... if you have to do it at all!
    
    Stuart

    re: .30, re: .28
    
    I think I'm probably miscounting about whether .24 refers to my
    note.  If that's the case, .28 is way off base, and I'm sorry for
    mouthing off like that. 
    
    --bonnie

    and when all is said and done.....
    
    IMO...
    
    As long as your house is sanitary, your kid(s) are well fed and clothed,
    and you all have your health....
    
    Don't sweat the small stuff!!
    
    (Sorry, had to add this note, we (my husband, the two kids, and
    myself) came *this* close to getting rearended at a red light yesterday
    by a van travelling about 50 miles an hour - thank the good Lord
    my husband saw him coming and swerved into the breakdown lane -
    it REALLY puts a new perspective on what's important in life.)
    
    Meg

    Well, I really screwed up this time, my reference should have been to 
    .11, not .7.  The person in .11 stated something to the effect that
    she was "really lucky" that her husband "helps" so much.  My reply
    was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, however I do get frustrated when
    statements are made about how women should consider themselves lucky
    when they have a partner who "helps" at all, rather than feeling 
    shortchanged when they have to do the majority of what really is
    garbage work that no one wants to do.  If I were working part-time,
    or staying home with my child, then I would expect to do more
    than "my share" of the chores, because I would have more time and
    (maybe) more energy available.  But all things being equal, (both healthy,
    working full time - though not for equal pay, natch) then I think
    that the "garbage work" ought to be split, too.
    
    I do not have standards different than my husband's!  We both LOVE
    our house when it is all cleaned up, both can't stand it when it
    is in it's normal state (barely above board of health standards :).
    The difference is, as much as I hate cleaning I will occasionally
    take a whole day and clean the place top to bottom as much as I
    would rather be doing something, anything, else.  He would never
    do this on his own.  Fact is, he doesn't really consider it his
    responsibility (if asked, he would tell you this isn't true -- and
    he really believes that, but his actions state otherwise.  Not his
    fault, childhood conditioning!)
    
    One last thing - we talk about getting help, but GUESS WHO has to
    figure out where to get the help, make the phone call, get the
    estimate and make the decision around whether we can afford it!
    One MORE CHORE!!!
    
    My apologies to Ms. Randall for getting her all riled up for nothing!

    Re .34 Right You Are!!!
    
    Unfortunately, if things were done on an "as needed" basis, by whoever
    feels like it, the baenote would never have been written!
    
    My belief is, regardless of sexual stereotyping in your upbringing, (my
    husband was raised by his father, kept an impeccable house until we
    were married) people tend to claim their own "territory" after coupling
    up, and more often than not, their territories are based on the gender
    based stereotypes of female=inside the house, male=outside the house.
    
    Many males feel quite uncomfortabel invading the "female's territory",
    and vise versa.  This "theory" is based on some extensive psychological
    studies of couples, though of course is but a theory.  I don't know
    quite how much I I believe it but it sure explains things!!
    

>    Well, I really screwed up this time, my reference should have been to 
>    .11, not .7.  The person in .11 stated something to the effect that
>    she was "really lucky" that her husband "helps" so much.  My reply
>    was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, however I do get frustrated when
>    statements are made about how women should consider themselves lucky
>    when they have a partner who "helps" at all, rather than feeling 
>    shortchanged when they have to do the majority of what really is
>    garbage work that no one wants to do.  If I were working part-time,


As the author of .11, to clarify--I don't mean I'm lucky 'cuz I'm the lucky
little woman who doesn't think hubby is responsible for pulling his part.
My statement about being lucky just referred to the previous 10 replies and
that I guess I'm lucky because I don't have to fight the exact battles
they--and you--are referring to.  I think we're saying the same thing, just
misunderstood (or not stated clearly by me in the first place--whatever!).

As for a few replies back about perspective:  I've always lived by a saying
we had in my house where I was growing up (can't say that my mom had--that
might appear sexist?  Sorry, but this gets too funny sometimes!)  Anyway,
it said:

	My house is clean enough to be healthy
	And dirty enough to be happy


Marty

    Someone said awhile back:  
    
         Also, this "you have higher standards of cleanliness" 
         stuff is a major cop-out.
    
    I agree.  If your spouse used that comment when you asked for help,
    what would your reaction or response be?  

    The last string of replies (male vs female roles) reminds me of the 
    old father is home "babysitting" with the kids statement that is still
    said time and time again. 
    
    As far as the house goes, I admit to being a closet slob...if someone
    were to come unexpectedly to my house, eek!  I generally do a major
    cleaning one day a week.  In between we share, I will do mine/Katie's
    laundry he does his.  Thats mostly because unless it's in the laundry
    room I don't know (as he) whether each of us has dirty clothes (separate
    closets).  As far as cleaning going it all depends on the way the week
    goes.
    
    

>         Also, this "you have higher standards of cleanliness" 
>         stuff is a major cop-out.
>    
>    I agree.  If your spouse used that comment when you asked for help,
>    what would your reaction or response be?


At least at my household, this IS true.  I know... I'm the slob.  But as a
few others have said (Stuart & Bonnie, I think), you adjust to what
everybody can live with.  But if it were up to me alone, the house would
look a whole lot different (i.e., messier) than if it were up to my husband
alone!


Marty

>         Also, this "you have higher standards of cleanliness" 
>         stuff is a major cop-out.

I dunno about that.  Before I got married, if I had guests over and they sat
on my floor to watch a football game, the vacuum cleaner came out IMMEDIATELY
after they left (no matter what time, or how much alcohol in my body!) - and
the carpet was vacuumed "just so" so that it all went the "right" direction.
When my shower or bath was over, I would take a towel and dry out the entire
tub/shower so it was spotless again.    Those were my standards for my house.

Today I still have high standards for my house, though not as high as before.
I want everything picked up, but I'm not into "clean" as much (I feel I'm not
getting my money's worth from the maid service if I clean too much!).  I can't
go to bed at night, or leave in the morning, until everything is in its place
and beds are made, dishes put away, etc.

David?  He wants his CAR clean!  And his GARAGE!!!!!!  (who ever stops by and
looks at your garage???)  The house can be a mess and he doesn't notice - or
it doesn't bother him - but he'll be outside washing the car.  Sometimes it
can make my blood boil that he can be out washing a car when the house needs
so much attention - and I have to consciously tell myself that his standards are
not mine.

David can also walk right past a burned out lightbulb, a screen off the window,
a wall/door/etc. that needs painting badly, etc... and not even notice.  I want
it fixed right when it breaks, and hate to let things pile up.  He can also
wait to pay a bill until he gets a "2nd notice," something I can't stand to do.
Again, different standards.

So....  if I want something done that he doesn't realize "needs" to be done,
I have to ASK.  Not necessarily asking for him to "help ME" with MY work, but
ask him to do something he might not know needs doing!  (and it doesn't always
get done even then, but...)

    If you use different standards as an excuse to avoid looking after your
    home to even your own standards (as I know some people who have ...
    effectively lowering their own standards ...) then yes, this is just
    an excuse and a cop out.
    
    But, if your partner is consistent in doing things to maintain his/her
    standards, then it is a very powerful reason for not doing things and
    is not a cop out at all ...
    
    "Give me a reason but don't give me an excuse !"
    
    Stuart

    I think that instead of "differing standards," what I really meant
    was standardizing things that really don't need to be
    standardized.  I can use Kristen's vacuuming-after-the-party
    example to illustrate. 
    
    After you have a party, the floor is going to need vacuumed.*
    That's a fact of life.   Assuming we're talking about popcorn and
    stuff, not something that's going to damage the rug if it's left
    all night, I prefer to leave it for morning, when I'm awake and
    sober and can tell what I'm doing.  If I do it then, I'm liable to
    have to redo it in the morning anyway.  My husband will do as
    Kristen did -- vacuum that night, no matter how late it is.  He
    hates to get up and face a dirty house.
    
    It seems to me that either position is reasonable.  The "standard"
    is to get the rug to a certain level of cleanliness.  Problems
    arise only when the people involved think the rug has to be
    vacuumed at a particular time and in a particular way and aren't
    willing to consider the other person's feelings or reasons.  A
    person who thinks that vacuuming at a different time is "lowering 
    standards" and that the other person is a slob for doing things
    differently is probably in for a lot of conflict on the home
    front. 
    
    It's probably worth noting that these kinds of issues are as
    likely to complicate a roommate situation as a marital one.  
    
    In this case, our adjustment is that I do what I can to help clean
    up immediately after the party.  He's going to do it anyway,
    whether I help or not, so if I go to bed expecting to do my share
    in the morning, when there was nothing left to do, I'd be in
    effect shirking my share.  So I do what I can with my eyes closed. 
    Or sometimes we'll trade off -- he'll clean that night, and the
    next day I'll take over something he usually does.
    
    --bonnie
    
    *The prissy person will vacuum twice while the guests are still
    there; the true slob won't vacuum because s/he can count on the
    dog to clean up the spilled food.  

    It seems to me we're talking about a broader spectrum than "differing
    standards," and need more basic distinctions.  Having your children
    start the day in clean clothes is a standard.  Doing the laundry on
    Monday (or whenever) is a habit.  Folding the napkin under the fork is
    a ritual.  Vacuuming the floor immediately after the party is an
    obsession.  Drying the bathtub . . . well, that's pathological!
    
    Leaving the popcorn for the dog is simple good sense.  Leaving the
    popcorn for the dog you might get some day is procrastination.  
    Leaving the popcorn for the fish is suspicious.
    
    		- Bruce

    	I have always been pretty fanatic about our house, things had to be
    done a certain way in a certain order. 
    	All that changed about 2 1/2 weeks ago when I broke a bone in my
    knee and am under orders not to put any weight on my leg for at least 
    6 weeks.  This has been not only the most stressful time in my life but
    also a good learning experience.  My SO works out of town during the
    week and is only home from Friday evening to Sunday evening, this
    leaves myself and 11 month old Shayne home all week to fend for
    ourselves.  Needless to say my house has become a disaster area, but 
    much to my surprize, we are still alive and the world has not come to 
    an end.  
    	I'm really glad this note was started, all the other noters have
    made me realize, that maybe I have fretted much too much.  Since I 
    can't get around to clean house, all I can do with my time is play with
    Shayne and get to bed earlier than I have ever gotten to before since I 
    am not spending the time after he falls asleep to clean up. 
    	Thanks to all for putting my mind at ease, and helping me realize 
    that spotless is not always neccessary. 
    
    Malinda

    Another thought.  There is no reason chore sharing need be uniform over
    time.  There have been times when for months running, I did most of the
    cooking, to be followed by an opposite phase.  Typically, childcare was
    split, but my spouse did more cleaning.  But during her second
    pregnancy, she roughly slept for 9 months, and I did about 95% of
    everything.  Over time, it probably balanced out fairly well.
    
    		- Bruce

    re: .43
    
    Having the children END the day in clean clothes is impossible.
    
    --bonnie

    I LOVE this string!!!  Bruce, your .43 was wonderful!
    
    On weekends I fall into the fanatic category and on the weekdays, well,
    I just get depressed because my house isn't immaculate and I don't have
    the energy to make it so.  Course, with two collies who are allowed
    indoors, it's impossible to keep the house clean for longer than 30
    minutes!

    Before I was married, I had lived alone for a bit over ten years,
    about three of those years as an owner of one house or another.
    
    I had no trouble keeping my house as clean as I wanted, and no
    trouble keeping it in shape.  I had no trouble cooking or doing
    laundry.  I'm satisfied with my standards of cleanliness and
    "rightness".  My wife had lived alone for many years, as well,
    and she's satisfied with her standards.  Alas, we differ!
    
   o	She won't wash or wax her car, or vacuum the inside.  It'll
    	rust faster, and some might object to fossilized apple cores
    	on the floor, but she doesn't care and it saves her time.
    	On occasion I've washed and waxed her car for her, but from
    	her point of view that's no favor, just wasted effort.  I think
    	she lets the glass get dirty to the point of actual danger,
    	and so clean her windows occasionally because I'd hate for her
    	to have an accident.  If I put "wash cars" in a job list, she'd
    	say it didn't belong.  I say it does.  Who's right?
    
    o	I don't care about soap stains on the tub or that red fungus
    	which grows on the shower curtain or dust on the baseboards
    	or cardboard boxes full of papers in the living room.  She does.
    	Is it my job to clean the tub when she's unhappy and I'm not?
    	From my point of view, the bathroom is _never_ dirty, so it
    	_never_ needs to be cleaned.  Are boxes in the living room
    	where they should be, or utterly out of place?  Who gets to
    	decide?
    
    o	She wears shoes indoors, and so doesn't care about grit and sand
    	on the kitchen floor.  I like to go barefoot, and so want all
    	shoes taken off as people come inside.  I sweep the kitchen about
    	twice a week and mop about once a week--when she comes in with a
    	plant, am I right to get angry?  After all, by her standards,
    	the floor is _never_ dirty.  Is this a job for the list?
    
    o	I used to do laundry by putting all the clothes in together
    	and using cold water.  Everything got clean, and who cares
    	about a little color toning the whites?  I don't.  She won't
    	let me do that to her clothing (and doesn't like it when I do
    	it to mine, must be like fingernails on a blackboard to her).
    	End result?  She does _all_ the laundry.  Is this fair?
    
    o	She likes to have the bed made.  I don't care.  Is that a
    	job for the list?
    
    o	I want the plants out of the house--to my mind, they're far
    	more trouble than they're worth.  She likes them.  Is plant
    	care a job for the list, or should I be compensated for my
    	toleration of dirty, bulky, ugly things all over the place?
    
    I could go on--please do not think this list is exhaustive, or 
    a complaint (I've tried to be balanced).  It's a series of examples.
    Further, I've exaggerated a bit in the interest of brevity and 
    simplicity.  Real life is always more complicated.
    
    If you both agree that something should be done, then deciding who
    does it is simple, and you should be able to reach some kind of "fair"
    division, and if one partner won't do his or her share, that person is
    free-loading, and anger on the part of the other is appropriate.
    
    If you both don't care, then everything's fine.
    
    If one of you cares, and the other doesn't, you have trouble. 
    And every couple is going to have lots of such cases.
    
    It's important to remember that a statement like "X _needs_ to
    be done" is a statement of personal opinion, not of objective fact.
    It's also important to realize that this is not a win-win situation:
    one party is going to lose either way.  If I and my wife, for example,
    split tasks along personal preference (e.g. I do the kitchen, she does
    the bath, etc.), we do more total work than either of us thinks is
    necessary.  Of the work I think is required, I do more (and vice
    versa).
    
    I haven't solved these issues, except insofar as I believe you have
    set your expectations correctly.  Expect to do 75% of what has to be
    done (in your opinion), not 50%.  And try to change your definition of
    "what has to be done" to the minimum.  And don't assume that "my standards
    are different" is the attempt of a jerk to avoid doing his (or her) share.
    People can differ on that and still be good people.
    
    			-John Bishop

    Thank you John, you've expressed very well, and accurately, what I
    hoped to get across but apparently failed.
    
    Stuart ... who believes that if something lands on the floor, at
                  least it cannot fall any further!

    I think it's like family budgets, you both compromise, you come
    to a joint decision, and you both support the decision.  If you
    still want something (done) outside of that, then you have to
    personally work for it, or recompromise.  I don't think the sloppier
    person can just say "not my standards".
    	Linda

    When I read the base note, and then saw 40SOMETHING replies, I just
    knew it was going to be like a novel I can't put down...IT WAS!!  
    
    Here's the gest of the plaques I have hanging in our kitchen,
    the first says "this is my house and I do as I Darn Please"
    The second:  "This is an Equal Opportunity Kitchen"
    The third say something like "this is my kitchen, it's not always this
    bad, sometimes it's EVEN WORSE"  Think about those.
    ...and even as I sit here in the calm and quiet of the office, my hubby
    is home playing MR. MOM!  Seems we scheduled vacation, and the group
    requested I work through the end of the quarter (oh the unpredictable
    live of DECtagging!)  So he's home with AJ and complaining of burnout
    and loosing his mind and saving daycare money but doesn't realize that!!
    
    Acutually I'd settle for him getting his underwear IN the basket, not
    just beside it,(he does manage to get socks together in "sockholders") or 
    to take out the trash before it overflows.  There are certain divisions in
    our house, mostly in self defense.  I do the dishes most of the time, he'll
    wait till their dry and put them away (my diswasher has ten fingers :-) ) 
    I do the laundry and ironing, I couldn't imaging what he'd do with either,
    and the floor washing, besides I have my own style of doing these things, 
    and of course when it's cat pan time he makes it clear they're MY cats!  
    I must admit he pushes a mean vacume and cooks fairly well too.  HE does 
    the car washing, takes the trash to the curb, outside chores like grass 
    cutting, I do it on occation when I feel I need to exercise, (he's had AJ 
    as an assistant all  week with painting the house) and the inside things 
    like the minor electrical and plumbing repairs.
    
    My opinion is that we tend to react to upbringing, He was raised in and
    environment where mom cooked and cleaned and dad worked outside, I was
    raised in an environment of If you see something that needs to be done
    the DO IT! (sure wish he'd do it my way!) I also seem to get my bursts of 
    energy after dinner, or if he's out of the house and the TV is off.  
    My husband is one of those working 2+ jobs, if you count DEC, the fire 
    dept, the ambulance and college classes, so I DO appreciate whatever and 
    whenever he helps! If you ask me when the most housework gets done, the 
    answer is usually about 10 minutes before the company arrives!!
    
    It sure keeps life interesting!!
    Lyn

    re: .48
    
    Yes, that's what I was trying to say and not saying very well. 
    
    --bonnie

   Interesting set of replys....  its good to see that its stayed a
   little on the light side...
   
   Some random comments for a Friday afternoon...
   
   o I disagree with the idea of "fair".  I have believed for a while
     now that we both do "whatever it takes".   Life, and consequently
     marriage, is seldom fair, really.  Personally I believe that its
     dangerous to think that its a 50-50 partnership.  For us, its
     really a 100-100 partnership.
   
   o In some aspects, we also do those chose we find least unpleasant,
     or are most interested in seeing completed.  It only makes sense,
     as stated so well recently, that those chores that I want done I
     should do, especially if their completion is meaningless to my
     wife.
   
   o Bottom line - I believe its a matter of personal choice and
     negotiation.  As long as both parties are adult and mature about
     the situation, it shouldn't be a problem, right?
   
   - Tom
   
   btw - I too have a problem with the concept of Dad "babysitting".
     I mean, if Mom is home with the kids, she's not "babysitting",
     right?  So what't the difference?
   

    just to re-open the topic in a new way.......
    
    "division of labor" in our house includes my son, which I didn't
    read many here talking about the kids pulling "their fair share".
    
    As soon as Matt was old enough to "help" in any way, he started
    doing the things he could around the house.....while we were in
    the apt and he was a baby/toddler, it was "ok" if I had to do all
    the work (I'm a single mom), but now that he's older (a whole SIX !)
    we've had many talks about "it's not just up to mom"........he knows 
    how to make his bed (so, who says it has to be "perfect" ?? :-} !), 
    will rinse his own dish/glass/cup and put them in the dishwasher, helps
    to unload the dishwasher for things he can reach to put away (like
    all the silverware !!), brings his own dirty laundry down, helps
    fold/put away clean laundry ( I could go on !).......now that we've 
    moved into a house with upstairs/downstairs/cellar and a large yard
    instead of just 4 small rooms, he understands there's even more that 
    needs to be done....we try to do things together so they get done 
    faster (sometimes :-) ) and still get to spend time together......no, 
    he's not always wanting to help, but if I go through the "help me now, 
    we can do something you want later" routine, it helps get the 
    cooperation !!
    
    The other thing I learned early on was mentioned in other
    notes....learn what you can accept as your priorities and your
    limitations ..... I could spend all my free time keeping the place
    "spotless" and no time with my son......or I can keep things
    "acceptable" for us and spend time with Matt while he's still young....

    now, all I'm hoping is that as Matt gets older, he can "help" even
    more and I'll finally get to a point where I don't feel guilty 
    taking time-out from everything ELSE that needs to be done for
    time for "just me" :-) !!