Conference moira::parenting_v3

Any chance that you're being too "nice" or too "understanding" when
what he might be needing is some punishment from mom and dad?  I know
that might sound strange, but maybe he feels a sense of guilt over
some things he does and he really does need your disapproval to
help him get over it.

If all else fails, counseling might be something to check in to.

    I thought exactly what .1 said  - giving too much "nice" and
    "understanding" to him. I think kids at that age need very defined
    rules, especially knowing what pleases and what doesn't and they expect
    to have a certain amount of non-pleasing episodes needing discipline.
    Maybe he's not getting his quota. 
    
    Have you tried the approach of when he thinks he did something wrong
    (no matter how big or small) that the form of "punishment" should be
    discussed with the adult in charge (you or the daycare provider) FIRST
    before any action is taken, even on his part? It may get him to stop
    before striking himself or jumping to punishment that is out of
    proportion and discuss the "problem" and then receive the
    "just punsihment" from the appropriate person (not himself). 
    
    Four years old is old enough for him to talk to you about his thinking
    as to why he punishes himself. Try talking directly to him during a
    quiet time. If he reacts with punsihment for himself, try to get him to
    realize what he did was not an appropriate reaction for the situation.
    
    If you are really stumped, counseling would help him and you understand
    his thinking. 
    
    Hope it all clears up soon.
    Andrea

    I don't think I agree with the previous replies.  This doesn't
    sound like normal behavior or a normal discipline problem to me. 

    It sounds like your son is trying to deal with some very strong
    feelings of guilt and shame about something that he can't handle,
    so he's trying to punish himself for it.  Your description of your
    behavior doesn't sound like you're being inconsistent with your
    discipline, and problems with being too lenient tend to show up
    more as acting out or testing than as this kind of excessive
    self-punishment.  I thought at first you were going to say he was
    throwing temper tantrums over being disciplined, which is normal. 
    But he seems to have internalized the idea that he's bad, so he's
    going to punish himself before you do, as if he's afraid he's
    responsible for something terrible that happened or might happen.

    The first thing that comes to mind in this day and age is the
    possibility of abuse, but it might be that he witnessed some adult
    behavior he doesn't understand (a fight between neighbors, for
    instance) or is afraid your marriage is in jeopardy.  Has there
    been a death in the family or the neighborhood recently?

    Have you talked to your son's pediatrician about his behavior? 
    I'd start there; perhaps the pediatrician knows better than I do
    that this is a normal stage, or has other advice.  But after that
    I think if one of my kids were doing this, I'd look for
    professional counselling to help find out what is wrong.

    --bonnie

    I agree with .3, he may be feeling guilty about something that he
    can't handle.  It might be something that he didn't cause in any
    way, but thinks he was the cause.  My older brother thought for
    months (maybe even years) that he caused my grandmother's broken
    collar-bone.  The reason he thought this was he had done something
    mischeveous when at our grandmother's.  Then she broke her collar-bone
    in between that visit, and his next visit to her, when she had her
    arm in a sling to help the collar-bone heal.  My brother (at about
    age 3) reasoned that his mischeveous behavior had caused the broken
    bone!  Talk about unnecessary guilt!
    
    Good luck with this!
    -Cathy
    

    Thanks for all the responses!  A couple of things I have been thinking
    about:
    
    1. His sitter's son constantly pushes limits and is punished for
       his behavior (never physically, but punished, nevertheless).
       My son witnesses this and may feel that ANY behavior that is
       less than perfect deserves "punishing", also may be feeling
       that punishing is something that is "cool and for the big
       kids" - my sitters son is 6 months older and to my son that
       makes him a big kid -- so he may be looking for punishment
       as some kind of sign that he's a big kid too.
    
    2. The Gesell book on your 4-year-old states that age four is 
       an age of extremes, and I have to agree - my son takes everything,
       silliness, laughter, tears, to extremes right now.  The book also
       discusses that this is the age where kids really begin to
       understand "good" and "bad", so in my son's mind there may be
       no middle road.
    
    I have recently tried two things - one, when he starts saying what
    his punishment is going to be, I just say ok and go along with it,
    and consistently he then backs down and says "but I don't want to".
    So some of this may just be because he knows he gets a reaction from
    us and a lot of attention paid to him - when the reaction and
    associated attention goes away, so does the "fun" of going to extremes.
    
    The other thing I have started to do is say "no, you don't choose the
    punishment, Daddy or I pick the punishment".  He doesn't quite know
    what to do with this yet - but I think it may be important for him
    to know that he doesn't at this age have to take so much responsibility
    upon himself - that if there is punishment necessary WE will determine
    what that punishment should be.
    
    One other note - we just found out that he has been dealing with a
    sinus infection at various stages of acuteness for the past month;
    he had been complaining about headaches but it wasn't acute enough
    to show up until recently.  Since he has started on medication there
    is a big difference in his general attitude , much more positive,
    so this might have been a contributing factor.
    
    keep those opinions coming, i appreciate it.

    Toddlers do, indeed, take things to extremes.  They also have notions
    of "right" and "wrong", but little sense yet that life is a muddled
    mixture, and that something can be a little wrong without being
    horrible.  I know Eric (also 4) sometimes reacts to the mildest
    admonishment as if he had just been convicted of murder; he doesn't
    offer self-punishment, but he acts as if he had been whipped.
    
    I'm going to throw out another wild guess as to a reinforcing factor. 
    It could be that in the general family style there is little direct
    adult expression of anger, guilt, or other "unpleasant" emotions.  So
    he might have trouble expressing these feelings himself, or even
    realizing that grownups get angry and quilty feelings too.  When he
    can't control his bad feeling, he may feel that there is some
    corresponding objective "badness" which needs punishment to be cured.
    
    As bonnie suggested, he may also feel guilty for some bad thing he
    believes himself responsible for.  I will add the thought that he might
    not even consciously remember what it is, but just have retained the
    sense that he is a bad and/or dangerous person.  So he might not be
    able to tell you about it even if he is willing.
    
    		- Bruce

    re: .6
    
    "little direct adult expression of anger, guilt...."
    
    
    Would that it was so!!! However, I think you're on the right track.
    My husband and I last night were discussing how WE react when we
    make a mistake, and guess what?  Although we don't literally beat
    ourselves, we do, figuratively.  We have little tolerance for
    our own mistakes, and will say things like "I can't believe I
    was so stupid and did that".  Since Ian at his age sees everything
    as black and white, he may be interpreting our "spouting off" at
    ourselves as true self-hatred.  Even though we can tell him a 
    million times that everyone makes mistakes and it's not a big
    deal, the example we are setting doesn't reinforce that!
    
    So, I guess we'll have to stop being so self-critical if we
    want him to.  AARRGGHH!! Why does it always turn out to
    be ourselves that are causing the problem?  (Ooops, there
    I go already, beating myself up for having caused the problem).
    Maybe I'm the one who should go for counselling, not him!!
    
    B.

    .7 > Why does it always turn out to be ourselves that are causing the
    .7 > problem?  
    
    Well, as they say, "Better the Devil you know . . ."  Would you want
    random bad traits from total strangers being inflicted on your kids?
    
    I had an interesting chance to reflect on this problem the last part of
    August when the company during a week's vacation consisted of my kids,
    myself, and my (aging) father.  Without settling any nature/nurture
    disputes, it was a (sometimes unsettling) chance to reflect on which of
    the boys' characteristics (both noxious and nice) had been passed on
    from their paternal lineage, and which aquired elsewhere.
    
    		- Bruce