Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Ah, the bed-wetter! We have a five yr. old boy who still wets the bed
    every nite. He does, however stay in his own bed. We tried all the
    things you mentioned and none of them worked. He is a very heavy
    sleeper...is your daughter? He simply seems unable to rouse himself
    enough to pee in the potty. I've gone in and found him sound asleep and
    soaking wet, he doesn't evern know he's wet. We tried him in just
    underwear, hoping it would be uncomfortable enough to wake him up...it
    was not. All that resultd in was a drenched bed every morning. We tried
    those teryy lined rubber pants...he wet through. We put a "diaper
    doubler" pad insert into the rubber pants...he wet through. He also
    began to develop a rather nasty diaper rash from the wetness combined
    with the chafing of the pants. He is a *big* boy (wears a size 7-8
    clothes) and they are really too small. Regular cloth diapers can be
    folded to fit him, but we can't get rubber pants big enouhg. We finally
    resorted to ex. lg. disposable diapers, with a doubler pad inside. If
    we reinforce the tape, which barely reaches around him, with packing
    tape over it, it does hold, and his clothes and bed stay dry. His rash
    also cleared up. He is not too upset about wearing the diaper, since
    we've never shamed him about it, or made too big a deal of it. Just
    keep telling him that he'll grow out of it eventually. 
    It's interesting that this is most common in boys, and you have a girl
    with this problem. We have friends whose daughter is 12, and still wets
    almost every nite....and she has seen umpteen doctors and been tested
    from here to eternity, and no organic cause can be found. They
    apparently don't feel its psycological in her case, either...just that
    she sleeps so soundly that she does not have the bladder control yet to
    accomodate her needs. Her doctor feels she'll outgrow it by about age
    14-16, wehn she is fully grown.
    Maybe yu need to deal more forcefully with the staying in her own bed.
    As hard as it will be initially, it will be better if you strictly
    enforce it. Every time she comes into your bed, get up and put her back
    into her own. As often as needed. Yes, you will have several very
    restless nites, but if she realizes you mean business, it will stop
    being worth it to her. But you can't slip up even once....kids grab
    onto any indeciseveness on the parent's part and run with it.
    Good luck!
    
    --dave--
    

    re .1 Don't struggle with "children"diapers - use the Depends brand
    designed for adults with bladder problems. They are sold in the woman's
    personal products isle. They must work fine because I saw a little girl
    (about 6-7 by my best guess) wearing them on an over-night flight.
    
    I second putting your daughter back in her own bed. Maybe she wakes up
    because her bed is wet and likes it dry, thus heading straight for mom
    and dad's bed. If my son wanders in at night he will usually try to get
    into bed with us but I muster up the energy to take him back to his
    room with a pit stop in the bathroom along the way. He has never not
    gone. I think it is that he is sensing he needs to go but isn't quite
    sure either how to do it himself or whether he really needs to go, so
    he comes into our room figuring we'll know what to do with him.
    
    Hope it settles down soon for you.
    
    Andrea
                               

    I don't think wetting the bed at night is at all surprising in a
    4-year-old of either sex.  I guess the first thing I'd try is
    asking her if she wants something like the diapers for the night
    to help keep her from getting soaked.  
    
    I'm not sure I'd use this with a 4-year-old, but for an older
    child it's often effective to say, "You wet the bed, you have to
    wash the sheets."   
    
    Both Steven and Kat wet the bed at least once a week and sometimes
    several nights in a row until they were about 6.  Both of them
    were, as .1 mentions, very sound sleepers, and the problem went
    away when they got old enough to, or learned how to, wake up
    during the night. 
    
    Getting into your bed might or might not be related to the wetting
    problem.  You might check the notes about sleep problems to see if
    there's something there that might help you.
    
    You might also want to consider the possibility that both the
    bedwetting and the climbing into bed reflect some kind of
    insecurity or tension about something that's going on in her life. 
    If she's done something like changed day care, moved or had a
    friend move, lost a pet, etc. she might need extra doses of
    cuddling and reassurance during the day.
    
    --bonnie

    My (now 7 year old twins) used to wet their beds very often when they
    were about 4 years old.  I then started giving them chewable vitamin C
    tablets 1 per day.  I can't explain why, but when they started getting
    the vitamin C supplement they stopped wetting the beds!  It's
    definately worth at try!
    
    Good luck.
    

I think that PARENTING (or one of those magazines) had a *great* article on
this several months back, in the "We Have a Problem" section.  I gave mine to
a friend with a bed-wetting problem, but if anyone keeps back issues, you
might want to post it.

The doctor who wrote it has a very high success rate with solving bed-wetting
problems in children.  I can't remember the entire thing, but some points I
do remember are:

o	Evidence is very strong to suggest that this problem is hereditary.
	A parent, grand-parent, or aunt or uncle likely had the same problem.

o	Many are because of too small bladders.  One exercise I remembered
	to try to get your child to enlarge their bladder:  Make him/her
	drink alot of fluid and hold it until he/she was about to burst, before
	letting him go to the bathroom.  It doesn't take too long to enlarge
	the bladder this way.

o	Make them clean up their own mess.  This should not be presented as
	a punishment, but as a responsibility.  If they wet, then they are
	expected to strip the sheets, put them in the washing machine, and
	put new ones on the bed (obviously modified depending on age).

o	Do not criticize them or make them feel ashamed of it.

o	DO NOT get in the practice of waking him/her up in the middle of the
	night to go to the bathroom, this does not help them learn to go through
	the night without wetting.

If I find the article (maybe my friend still has it) I'll post it.

Kristen

    Anyone with bedwetters:
    Don't rule out Diabetes.  A quick blood check will confirm it. 
    Children can get diabetes at any age, it comes on very quickly and if
    not addressed soon, serious problems can result.
    
    steve
    (diabetic since age 9) 

    re: .5
    
    Did the article say why they thought there was something wrong
    with getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom? 
    I've been doing it for probably 34 years or so . . . and 
    
    --bonnie

    No, it said "don't wake them up".  If they get up by themselves to go,
    I suppose that's fine.

re: .7 re: .5

.5, if I remember correctly said that waking them up doesn't help them get 
through the night without wetting [the bed].  It didn't say anything about 
getting through the night without urinating.  

I suppose, theoretically, waking them up could make them dependent on an 
external stimulus waking them up as opposed to the discomfort of a full 
bladder waking them up.

Then again, it could mean that your (and mine too) potty training was 
deficient.  :^)

Clay

    I too have a four year old son with this problem.  He has yet to learn
    to hold it through the night consistently.  He may wet the bed two or
    three nights a week, and it does get frustrating, both for him and me.  
    
    He is an incredibly HEAVY sleeper.  He loves to sleep.  Has never been
    a problem napper, but falls into sleep readily.  He'll even wet himself
    if he falls asleep in the car.  I think he wets because even the
    stimulus of a full bladder is not enough to awaken him in the middle of
    the night.
    
    I haven't found a solution to this.  I try to limit his evening drinks
    to a cutoff of dinner time.  I also make him pee immediately before he
    hops into bed at night.  Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. 
    Hopefully he will outgrow it.  Meantime, it's plastic matress covers
    and constant sheet changing.  
    

    Our pediatrician told us not to be concerned about bed-wetting until
    about the age of 5 or so.  For some children it just takes a very long
    time.  I know of a teenager who wet the bed.
    
    I recently read an article about bedwetting that concluded that it was
    due to insufficient production of some hormone or something.  If I can
    find the article I'll bring it in.  The article said that there was a
    drug available that took care of the problem, and that after a while
    you could take the child off of it and the problem would not come back.
    
    On a more personal note, we trained our son Tobias, now 4.5 years, in
    two stages.  First, he was potty-trained during the day but continued
    to wear diapers at night.  Diapers at night went on for several months,
    with the number of dry nights steadily increasing; then it became clear
    he was getting lazy about keeping dry because he knew the diaper would
    be changed in the morning.  So at the start of this August we told him
    no more diapers at night.  He complained a couple of times, had a few
    accidents, and now appears to be completely ok at night.  Basically, we
    require him to go to the toilet immediately before climbing into bed,
    and he sleeps through the night.  We don't restrict drinking before
    bedtime too much, but do try quite a bit harder to keep him warmer in
    bed.

         Boy, am I glad to see so many helpful tips on this problem.  My
    son, Bradford, aged 4, also wets his bed at night which leads to
    constant changing of sheets.  I found out that his father and his
    uncles all wet their beds until they were 10 years old!  Unfortunately,
    this is not good for me.  I do find that when we have an early supper
    and I don't let him drink before bed, that he does stay dry.
    
    Diane
    

    I think the advice "make the child change the sheets but not as a
    punitive measure" is self-contradictory.  The CHILD will know this is
    punishment (unless s/he routinely changes the sheets, anyway), whatever
    you say, and that you are doing it to make him or her feel worse about
    the matter (which, indeed, IS what you are doing).  Rest assured that
    any child old enough to be expected not to have accidents feels bad
    enough about it already.  If the basis of the trouble was a
    psychological problem, you will make it worse.  If it was a physical
    problem, you will possibly create a psychological problem.  You will
    surely reinforce the sense of shame, and make it harder to have a
    constructive discussion about any aspect of the matter.
    
    Bed wetting isn't under a child's conscious control, so don't treat it
    by analogy with an accident attributable to carelessness.

    Sorry, I disagree, Bruce.  I see having the child wash the sheets a
    constructive way to help the child deal with the bed wetting.
    
    In this day and age, seems like noone is prepared to stand up and
    admit guilt.  Finding excusses is a routine practice.
    
    Taking responsibity for the sheet cleaning is a way of saying the
    bed wetting was an accident, but the child did it.  And is finding a
    way to compensate for the damage done.  Being responsible.
    Are we helping our children live up to their actions?
    
    ed
    

    re: .13

    In theory it sounds like you should be right, Bruce, and I suppose
    depending on the verbal and nonverbal messages the parent conveys,
    it might, but in general it doesn't seem to work like that. 

    Most of the time it's neither a physical nor a psychological
    "problem" but simply that the child hasn't yet learned to wake up
    from a deep sleep when they need to use the toilet.  Having them
    wash the sheet seems to simply call their attention to the fact
    that, unlike dreaming, wetting the bed is an act that has
    consequences, and that they are responsible for those
    consequences.  

    I see it in the same category as cleaning up the table after
    making a mess with the watercolors.  

    --bonnie

IMO, _not_ allowing the child to change the sheets or help out is likely to be 
more punitive than making him/her do so.

If I think back to the times that Gary (our daughter had very few accidents) 
continued to wet his bed when he was close to four, I think that what I did 
was more likely to induce guilt than saying "Go change the sheets".  I would 
get up, curse, mumble, tell Gary to dry off, and all the time doing things 
that made it clear, in no uncertain terms, that I was not pleased.  In the 
meantime, Gary kinda stood there, a bystander, wanting to do something, but 
not being able.  THAT surely makes him feel worse about the matter.  It seems 
to me that the times that I did ask him, relatively calmly, to do something, 
like get a towel, he did so quite willingly and enthusiastically, and it 
didn't look to me like he felt he was being punished.  (Sometimes, if it 
wasn't too wet, we would just make sure that there was a rubber pad 
underneath, put a towel or rubberized flannel pad on top, and leave the 
changing of sheets till the morning.)

I think the child _wants_ to do something to help correct the situation.

Ed, I disagree with you on one thing; perhaps it's semantic.  There is a 
difference between "admitting guilt" and "accepting responsibility" -- you've 
made them sound like the same thing.

Clay

    When I read these replies I thank my lucky stars that my mother
    was understanding, maybe because she was a bedwetter herself.  
    There is plenty of incentive to stop bedwetting without the parent
    laying a guilt trip on the kid for something they can't help.
    First of all it feels terrible to wake up all wet and cold with
    your pajamas clinging to you.  If you don't want to wake your parents, 
    then you spend the rest of the night sleeping crosswise at the
    end of the bed, cold because you can only use a small square of
    the blanket.  There is the worry that friends will find out (a bed 
    with a plastic sheet on it makes a crinkly noise when you sit on it), 
    or worst of all that you will wet the bed on an overnighter or at
    camp.  I don't see how any punitive action during your waking hours 
    is going to make you wake up out of a deep sleep any better.  Has this 
    been proven?  I would say 100 times before falling asleep, "I won't
    wet the bed", with the hope that that would make me hold it until
    morning.  I didn't stop completely until the onset of menses, probably 
    because my body matured enough to hold it.  Would  you yell at your
    child for throwing up?
    	Linda

    Linda, would you have felt better or worse if your mother or
    father had showed you how to use the washing machine, so that you
    could simply have gotten up, changed your pajamas and sheets, put
    the wet stuff in the washer, and gone back to bed?
    
    I'm trying to treat this as no big deal -- okay, it happened
    again, fine, we'll change the bed and wash the sheets.  You put
    the stuff in the washer and go get dressed for school; I'll put
    them in the drier when I get home.  (Steven's accidents almost
    always happen in the half hour or so before he wakes up for the
    morning.)
    
    No plastic sheet.  I don't yell at him.  I don't mention it unless
    he brings it up, except when I don't let him have a drink too late
    at night.
    
    I don't regard helping clean up as punishment and Steven doesn't
    seem to, either.  He acts like he likes having a feeling of
    control over at least part of the situation.  
    
    Incidentally, my daughter used to throw up.  A lot.  We never did
    figure out why, but it wasn't a specific allergy or situation. 
    She used to help wash the sheets, blankets, and whatever else had
    been doused by the most recent incident.  I didn't ask her to; she
    offered to help one night when she was about 4.5 or so.  The
    nighttime incidents stopped about a month after that, and the
    carsickness only a couple of months later. 
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie,
      I think it depends alot on the parent's attitude.  If it is matter
    of fact, like "here is where the sheets go, clean ones are here
    in the linen closet", rather than "you made the mess you clean it
    up" which to me delivers the message that the child could have
    prevented it if s/he really wanted to.  As soon as I was old enough 
    I changed the sheets myself and put the wet ones in the wash.  Before
    that it was very lonely to have to stand in the hallway in the dark 
    and call "Mommy" wait 10 minutes and call again, so not having to
    wake her up was a definite improvement.
        	Linda  

    Thanks, Linda, that clarifies what I was wondering about -- yes,
    I'm trying to keep it as matter of fact as I can and to not
    deliver any messages of blame.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    A friend of mine has a son who had a bed wetting problem.  I'm pretty
    sure that she brought him to a specialist.  They started using a device
    which would wake him up when he started wetting.  This help to break of
    of his problem.
    
    It may be another alternative to look into.
    
    
    					Darlene

    .14 > In this day and age, seems like noone is prepared to stand up and
    .14 > admit guilt.  
    
    I'm baffled, ed.  Does your child try to blame it on the hamster?  On you?
    
    Guilt is precisely what you don't want to induce.  I have yet to hear
    of a child who wets the bed on purpose.  It happened against their will
    and beyond their control.  Usually, bedwetting is associated with
    anxiety.  Encouraging guilt will increase the anxiety, and lead to more
    frequent bedwetting.  No thanks.
    
    And (to others) I certainly didn't suggest forbidding the child to help
    clean up, which would be as unfortunate as forcing him to.  Aaron
    fairly often remade the bed after it was wet, just as he fairly often
    helped make it up for routine cleaning.
    
    		- Bruce

    As a matter of fact Bruce, we do have hamsters, and yes, you are
    correct, it was blamed on one.
    
    I guess guilt is how you look at the situation, or use english words to
    discribe it.  Webster uses "breech of conduct" as a definetion.
    Whenever or  child does something, we require the child to be
    acountable for their action.  This does NOT mean punishment.  Accidents
    can and do happen.  But even accidents have a cause.  The child may
    have done something [bad] by mistake, ignorance, misjudgement.  That
    does not mean automatic punishment.  If the misaction is acknowledged
    and not repeat,  I have no problem.  Its when an action is taken and
    the child[or person] does not take ownership, than my hot button is
    pushed.  repeat wetting is not a punishable offense.  But the wetting
    was caused by the child and not my wife.  It requires extra work.
    And if the child is old enough [ no, even I don't think a 2 year old
    should wash the sheets], they take charge for their action.
    But thats just how I was raised and only my style of parenting.
    Your mileage may vary.
    ed
    

    As I read this a few points came to mind.
    
    First, however handy the Depends, or diapers might be, I agree that
    those things tend to condone bedwetting, since it's right there to
    catch it, besides it takes a bit of coordination to get up in the night
    and undo the diaper tabs, that could be tough in a sleepy state.
    Speaking from experience, dealing with incontinent patients in a
    hospital setting, the flannel rubber backed pads or the (usually blue) 
    plastic backed paper pads are a lot easier to change than a whole bed.
    If you're local Monihan's Pharmacy in Worcester sells both.
    
    If the child is a restless sleeper maybe take an old sheet, torn in
    half and place it over the pads to anchor it to the bed.  It's easier
    to change a small sheet than a whole set of bedding.
    
    Second, I also agree that bedwetting problems can be hereditary.  I
    base this on the fact that someone I know mentioned her husband had
    bladder control problems until a late age.  Now their son, almost 5
    still wears a diaper at night, but has been dry in the daytime over a
    year and a half.
    
    Third, a former coworker of mine mentioned that her boys were wetting at 
    night, it seemed to occur more on cool nights.  The she changed the bedding
    to flannel sheets and it stopped.  The theory being, the cotton sheets get
    cold which triggers a reaction to make one urinate, the flannel will
    keep the "private" parts warm and somehow helps control the urge.  Try
    that, it worked for her.
    
    And lastly, I think I've heard the most unique pedi-specialist there
    is.  At Umass Medical Center, under the Dept of Psychiatry, is a Dr.
    Martin Young.  He specializes in Potty  Training problems!
    
    Good Luck
    Lyn
    

    I have looked in this file and in PARENTING_V2 and there are no
    topics on bedwetting, so I open a new one for my question.
    
    My son is 7, going to be 8 next month.  We do not have full custody
    of him yet, but hopefully soon.
    
    About 50% of the time that he is with us on visitation he still wets
    the bed.  We watch his liquids carefully, his bed always has a 
    waterproof rubber sheet on it, and we even make it a habit to get
    him up in the middle of the night to use the potty.
    
    Once he even wet the bed AFTER he had gotten up in the middle of 
    the night to urinate!
    
    As a new step-mother with no prior experience I am looking for 
    advice on how to handle this.
    
    Initially my husband was really getting on his case about it and
    even disciplining him severely for this.  After I talked to him
    about it though, he has stopped doing that.  Unfortunately there
    hasn't been much change in the situation so far.
    
    Any help, hints, information, pointers to resources?
    
    Thanks.  Jan
    
    

    I know, personally, of several children, some quite a bit older than
    your step-son, who still wet the bed consistently. Our son is 5 and
    wets several times a nite. Is your step-son a very sound sleeper? It is
    possible that, like our son, he simply does no rouse enough to heed the
    full bladder signals his body sends him. Joshua *hates* to wet the bed,
    and we have not made a big deal over it at all. He just hates the
    feeling of being cold and clammy and very uncomfortable. We let him
    wear a diaper, at his request, at nite. There are times he decides he
    doesn't like the diaper, but when offered the alternative of enderwear,
    he ends up prefferring the diaper, because he knows he can't wake up
    to come use the bathroom at night. To complicate it, his 3.5 yr. old
    sister has been nite dry for over 6 mos., and frequently gets up at
    night to go to the bathroom. We never point this out (the difference
    between the two of them), at least not when there would be any
    possibility that Josh would overhear.
    
    I know that the other two children I'm thinking of (one an almost 11
    yr. old boy who wets about 3 or 4 nites out of 7, and one a 13 yr. old
    girl who wets every nite) have both seen dr.s and have been told it's
    normal, and that if it's still going on when they are in their mid to
    late teens, then they will investigate further! I have asked our dr.
    about it, and he says, particularly in boys, this is *very* normal, and
    could go on for many years and still be considered quite normal. 
    
    For what it's worth, most "experts" do not recommend getting a child up
    at nite, as it is then *you* who they depend on for the signal to empty
    their bladder, and not themselves. Do what works best for you. 
    I would recommend at his age, that you, *non-judgementally* require him
    to strip his bed when he wets it, to help wiht the laundry, and to help
    with the remaking of the bed. This is *not* punishment, but it is work
    that needs to be done as a result of his problem. If handled very
    matter-of-factly, he should view it that way.
    
    Also consider that when his custody situation is finalized, and things
    settle down to be more or less always the same for him, that the
    problem may resolve itself. Stress can materialize in lots of different
    ways.
    
    -dave--

    I certainly would not view this as a discipline issue and I believe you
    were right to insist your husband STOP punishing him for it.  They do
    make devices which sense the first wetness which sounds an alarm, would
    wake him up and theoretically stop the wetting before it was finished.
    I believe this device operates him by conditioning him to wake up when
    he starts to go which is almost waking him up BEFORE he goes. The 
    device is safe (don't worry about the electrical part). You might
    want to check with your pedi if your interested in this.  
    
    Jeff

    .25 > I have looked in this file and in PARENTING_V2 and there are no
    .25 > topics on bedwetting, so I open a new one for my question.
    
    This is confusing, since this is in a string of entries about bedwetting.
    Have you read the rest?
    
    You don't say much about the background, but this kid is evidently in
    the middle of a change of custody to a new household, and one whose
    course is at least somewhat uncertain.  It is easy to imagine that
    this might create absolute maximum anxiety in the child (even if you
    are handling it as well as you possibly can) of exactly the sort that
    would lead to bed wetting.  Severe discipline will make such a problem
    severely worse.  Mild discipline will make it considerably worse.  If and 
    when the boy starts feeling safe and relaxed, the problem is likely to
    disappear.
    
    		- Bruce

>    .25 > I have looked in this file and in PARENTING_V2 and there are no
>    .25 > topics on bedwetting, so I open a new one for my question.
>    
>    This is confusing, since this is in a string of entries about bedwetting.
>    Have you read the rest?

The author of .25 was unable to find this topic string, since it was originally
titled "Bed Wetters" rather than "Bedwetting".  Through the marvels of modern
technology, one of the moderators moved the note that is now .25 (along with
its response) to this topic, as we frequently do when we find a new topic 
created on a subject for which a discussion already exists.

	-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator

re: .28

>    This is confusing, since this is in a string of entries about bedwetting.
>    Have you read the rest?

Bruce,

My fault.  This note was originally a new topic.  Since this topic had already 
been started, I moved it so that it is now a reply to this note.

Clay (as moderator)

re: .27, and .28

Yes, I agree entirely that the noter (stepmother) is "did the right thing" 
by convincing the father not to make bedwetting a discipline issue.  I read 
.25 ("still wets his bed") as meaning that it predated the custody issue.  But 
regardless, this surely isn't a time to work on the bedwetting.  

Clay (as noter)

    I can only reiterate... many children wet their beds well beyond 7-8...
    my brother did until he was 12 if I remember correctly.  Discipline
    doesn't help nor does getting them up in the middle of the night.
    
    Something that might help, both the transition into a new home
    situation and the bed wetting by the same token... is to consult a
    reputable homeopath...  I don't want to preach here, but I have had
    very good personal results wit this method - particularly in the area
    of "non-tangible" ailments.  Their method of treatment seems to really
    consider a person and a body as a whole and greatly contributes to
    re-establishing "balance" - which IMHO is the key to a healthy happy
    life.
    
    It is hard, it is smelly, it is humiliating for the boy, it makes one
    feel guilty (I can remember my brother asking to share my bed because
    his was wet, cold, smelly and he was ashamed of himself for not
    controlling the situation... my heart really bled for him)  I think it
    is a time when love, tolerance and patience is the only road you can
    follow...
    
    Good luck... it will stop eventually

    
    Quite often, chronic bedwetting is a medical problem.  Of course, it
    can be psychological as well--or a mixture of the two--but you really
    should have your stepson medically evaluated by a specialist.  And you
    are certainly correct--he should not be disciplined for bedwetting.  He
    is probably mortified anyway--and berating him will do nothing but make
    him feel worse about himself.
    
    My brother-in-law was a bedwetter until he was 13 or 14.  My
    mother-in-law used to leave clean sheets on his desk chair every night
    and he would change the bedding if necessary.  This way, he was spared
    the humiliation of waking up his parents--making a big deal about it,
    etc.  The bedwetting suddenly stopped in a matter of days--no reason,
    no rhyme.  My brother-in-law believes it was physiological--meaning he
    couldn't control it.  He is now an extremely outgoing, well-adjusted
    30-year old---it really didn't have any long-term negative effect on
    him.  Again, my mother-in-law never made a big deal out of it.
    
    Bonnie
    
    
    
    

    WOW!!  When I first started reading these replies and kids trained at
    18 mos, I thought I must REALLY be doing something wrong .... many many
    thanks to .10 who seems to have kids more like mine.  Christopher is 5
    1/2 and has been trained for almost exactly 3 years.  During the day.
    Nighttime has become a point of extreme 'disappointment' for all of us.
    He still wears a diaper to bed ... and because he NEEDS to!!  We've
    tried many times putting him in underwear.  We've tried waking him at
    night to go, but we can't even wake him up (it's spooky - kind of like
    he's almost dead!).  He used to wake up occassionally to go - now he
    never wakes up.  I wouldn't even mind so much changing wet sheets every
    morning, but the problem is that when he wets it must be the middle of
    the night, and then he gets cold, but he _never_ gets up, he just lays
    there and shivers half-sleeping and *what a grump*!!  in the morning
    cuz he hasn't gotten any sleep.  It can't be very healthy to not sleep
    all night, nor can it be much better to lay in a puddle of urine (we're
    talking SOAKED!), so we keep switching back to the diapers and at least
    let him sleep.  
    
    We have tried no drinks, and that doesn't seem to help.  The only thing
    that we have had VERY limited success with is to make sure that he is
    dressed warmly, but now he's started undressing himself sometime after
    he goes to bed.  
    
    I know I'm not SUPPOSED to be frustrated about this, but I am -
    terribly.  He BARELY fits into a diaper, and he hates wearing them as
    well.  It's a source of some (if not major) embarrassment for him
    because he'd like to spend the night at a friends house or relative's
    house, but doesn't want to wear a diaper there and is afraid of wetting
    the bed.  In spite of trying to control ourselves, I must honestly
    admit that we have, a few times, let our frustration show.  I never
    thought of trying the training pants, so we'll give that a shot.  It
    may just be that he's convinced he CAN'T do it now.  Any suggestions??
    And after 3 years of wet beds, HOW can you guys not get aggravated????
    
    THANKS!!!
    
    Patty (who lives with the fear of sending him off to college with a
               rubber sheet (-: )

    
    
    RE. 14:
    
    Patty you don't mention if your son has been checked out by a docter
    to be sure that physically he is okay.  You may wish to bring this
    up with his pediatrician.
    
    There is medical help for this problem.  A friend of mine had a son
    who was having the same problem.  He was checked out and physically, he
    was fine.  As in I believe in your case and .10's, the child was such a 
    sound sleeper, he did not realize that he had to go to the bathroom.  My
    friend was able through the doctor, to obtain a device which would
    alert the child whenever he started to urinate.  It may have trained
    the child to be more alert to his full bladder and not to ignore the
    sensation.  This device worked for him. 
    
    Definitely talk to your pediatrician, and/or urologist (sp?). 
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    					Darlene
      
    

    Forgot to mention that .... he was checked out and he was fine, and the
    Doctor didn't seem to think it was unusual or anything to be concerned
    about ... but since it's also bothering HIM, I am concerned.
    
    Any idea what the device is called??  I'm quite sure that the reason he
    doesn't get up is because he's such a sound sleeper.  As I said, we
    can't even wake him up if we had to.
    
    Thanks!

    
    
    Unfortunately I don't know the name of the device.  I definitely would
    persist with the pediatrician because if it is bothering the child. 
    It's evidently getting to the point where if may be affecting his self
    image.
    
    I wish I could give you the name of the doctor my friend went to but he
    is in Arizona.  The child's father still works in DEC PNO, and if you
    wish, I'll try to find out additional details--what type of doctor,
    etc.  Believe me, Chris and your family have my compassion.
    
    
    						Darlene

    
    
    I don't know the name of the device, however, friends of mine have a
    son who is 5 years old with a bedwetting problem.  They turned to an
    organization called "Bedwetters Anonymous" located in Wisconsin.  They
    have been using a device that sounds an alarm at the slightest hint of
    moisture in the bed.  The alarm wakes their son, who gets up, splashes
    cold water on his face to insure he is wide awake, goes to the bathroom
    and returns to bed.  If he needs to put clean sheets on prior to
    crawling in he does this too.  The organization they contacted assigned
    someone to their case to help them work with their son.  They have been
    quite please with the results.
    
    I'll try to call my friend this evening to get more information on 
    BA.
    
    Sharon

    
    Re 37:
    
    The device sounds exactly like the one my friend was using and the
    routine of cleaning up the sheets and splashing water on the face is
    what my friend's boy had to do.
    
    My friend had heard of it via word of mouth and consulted the
    pediatrician who gave the okay to try it.  The device runs off of
    batteries--maybe D cells.  According to the boy's father, at first, the
    device was activated several times a night during the first week.  The
    child began activating it less and less--maybe like once every other
    night, etc. until he was no longer bedwetting.  The child was given a 
    person to communicate with--via letter and/or phone and report on his 
    progress.  Weekly reports were done with this person.  
    
    He also suffered previously with embarassment and would not sleep over 
    his grandma's or friends'.  When his problem was solved, his self esteem 
    went up dramatically.
    
    The problem is actually a sleep disorder.  
    
    37 please enter if you have the info requested.  I believe I still
    maybe able to get it it you cannot.  The father did not have the name 
    of the organization so I will have to contact the mother in North 
    Carolina (unfortunately they divorced) in hopes she has the name and/or 
    address.  It sounds as though you have the right organization though.
    
    
    					Darlene
       
    
    

    RE: 38
    
    Sorry for the delay, but I finally got the name and phone number of the
    service I described in .37.
    
    The name of the company is Pacific International and their phone number
    is 1-800-477-2233.
    
    
    Good Luck
    
    Sharon

    I recall reading in Science News sometime last year, I think, about
    some research that had been done on bedwetting.  The result of the
    research was development of some type of hormone pills or shots
    that would cause a child to stop bedwetting.
    
    Suggest you go to your library and use the Reader's Guide to Periodical
    Literature to see what's been published in the last couple of years.
    
    Good luck

    ....maybe he really CAN read ??  Well, 9 nights ago we ran out of
    diapers, so Christopher decided to 'give it a try' again.  Something
    must have 'clicked' for him - he's been dry (and in underpants) ever 
    since!!  Talk about 2 relieved/happy parents, and 1 _very_ proud little
    boy!
    
    Thanks for all the help and advice!!
    
    Patty

    
    
    Patty,
    
    Was wondering how things were going for Christopher and your family.
    Glad to hear the good news!
    
    
    					Darlene
    

    
    I haven't been in this file for a long time, as have been extremely 
    busy at work.  
    
    HOWEVER, I have really GOOD news to report! About two weeks after I
    entered the note requesting help, Adam suddenly stopped wetting the
    bed.  That was around Thanksgiving time, and he has been dry ever
    since!
    
    With US, that is!  Evidently he is still having problems at his
    mother's house, because we had fairly recent information that she is
    still putting diapers on him at night.  He has since turned 8, and this
    must be very humiliating for him.  Mostly we now just ignore it, but
    every now and then we praise him for having been so good for so long
    and then he knows that we know.  It makes him feel good.
    
    Thanks to all who offered support and advice.  A lot of good stuff
    here for others to draw on in the future.  

Maybe somebody can help.

Markus has been wetting the bed all the time.  He has had one or two periods
when he was undergoing treatment when we would go for 3 or 4 days without
a wet bed but that is all.  His self esteem is lower than rock bottom.

To answer some of the other issues raised here, the drug used to treat 
bedwetting is Tofranil.  It is a psychostimulant that is related to other drugs
designed to treat hyperactivity or attention deficiency (ADD).  From what
I can understand from the documentation, it basically prevents the child from
falling into this coma like sleep where he loses control.  Markus has had the
treatment twice, a couple of years a part.  In the beginning, it seems to 
work and then his sleep becomes so deep that the drug can't overcome it so he
wets.  

The wet alarm system can be ordered from Sears and Roebuck.  There are two 
models, Wet Alert which sounds an alarm when the child wets and Lite Alert
which sounds an alarm and turns on a lamp.  The alarm is very loud.  The first
model costs $60 and the second $80.  As evidence of how soundly Markus sleeps,
I can hold the alarm against his ear and shake him and he doesn't wake.  This
is a death-like coma that he is in.  I know now that that is why he wets
because one night he had a coin in his hand which fell onto the pad and set off
the alarm.  That time he awoke without problems.

We tried the alarm for about two weeks.  Markus could not be awoken, nobody else
got any sleep.  He sometimes wet a couple of times a night.  Usually he wets
between 4:00 and 5:00, sometimes between 11:00 and 12:30. If nothing else, the 
alarm is useful for determining the wetting pattern.

Markus will not have friends over, is terrified of school outings, and feels
that he has been visited with the worst affliction imaginable ["Je suis
compl�tement foutu"  I am completely messed up (the French is more descriptive)]
If he ever becomes Swiss and joins the army, they will deal with this in the
worst of ways.

What annoys me most is that the bed wetting is only a symptom of what some 
people have indicated here is a sleep disorder.  We seem to be trying to cure
the symptom rather than the disease.  Nobody yells at him, he gets up, showers,
and the bed gets changed.  No sense making him unhappier than he already is.

He has been tested, he has no urinological problems or infections.

Any ideas how to treat the real problem?

Thanks,
Cheryl

Cheryl, have you considered counseling for him to help him understand that
his "problem" is not of his own doing and there is nothing to be ashamed
about?  He might need to hear it from a dis-interested 3rd party.  I'm sure
you've offered tons of love and reassurance.  I would imagine it must be real
tough on him.

If I remember correctly, one of my brother's wet until he was about 13.

    Cheryl,
    
    There's a special group at Children's Hospital in Boston that deals
    with sleep disorders. (In fact, it's the group Dr Richard Ferber,
    author of "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem", belongs to. He's famous
    in this file for his advice on sleep problems.) 
    
    I know you are in Europe, but I wonder if you can locate a similar 
    specialized group in a major hospital near you? Or even write/call the
    sleep disorders people in Boston for a referral. It seems like 
    treating the whole problem (including psychological stuff) with 
    someone who specializes in this area might work out best. Good luck  
    to you all.
    
    Lucy 

    I suggest you get a copy of "Dry All Night" by Allison Mack.  It's a
    large format paperback which costs about 10 bucks.

    The book contains a wealth of information regarding sleep wetting
    (Ms. Mack recommends not using the term "bedwetting" as it suggests an
    overimportance of the bed which is simply a piece of furniture as
    opposed to the feelings of the child) as well as a therapy which
    attempts to place the child in control.

    The method worked great on my 6-year-old for a couple weeks.  Since
    then he has been slowly regressing into old patterns - and has
    subsequently become disgruntled with the book.  He won't do the
    exercises any more.  But, the book did help him immeasurably in the
    self-esteem department - since he now knows not only the anatomical
    mechanisms involved, but also he knows that he's not alone or unusual -
    and (most importantly) that he's not to blame.

    The book also sheds some light on the hereditary factors at play.  (I
    wet until I was in puberty.)

    I'd be very interested in anyone else's success (or lack thereof) with
    Ms. Mack's method.  If enough people have tried it, perhaps we should
    start a separate note.

    L.

Markus spent a couple of years with a psychologist specialised in children.  We
didn't make any progress on the wetting side but did learn to live better 
together (Markus is what you would call a "difficult" child and has been so 
since he was born) with less yelling and frustration.  I think a lot stems from
an insecurity that he hides very well from the rest of the world.  This is 
why the wetting is so devastating for him.

If someone could provide me with the name and address of a doctor in the Boston
Hospital who could refer me to someone here, I would appreciate it.  It is very
difficult to find doctors here with new and advanced ways of dealing with these 
problems and often months of wait to be accepted as a patient.

I (or my husband) will pick up the book next time we are in the U.S.  Believe
me, Mark and I will try anything with a hint of success!

Thanks for your suggestions.

Cheryl

    There is also a book called "The Difficult Child" which discusses
    children that are "different" for a variety of reasons, with some great
    suggestions for living together without friction. I can find out the
    author if you cannot find it in a bookstore. A friend bought it, since
    her daughter has been "difficult" since birth (now 3) because of food
    allergies and other problems. They found it tremendously helpful.
    
    best of luck,
    

I have read this book and a number of others.  I have written a review of
it in the ASSABET::LEARNING_DISABILITIES conference.  The book is excellent,
even in helping parents deal with "normal" children passing through difficult
phases.  Another book which deals with actual learning disabilities which I
recommend if your child enters a difficult phase which MIGHT be caused by
an LD is The Misunderstood Child.

Press KP 7 to select.

ccb

This is an edited version of what I sent Cheryl in mail:

I called Children's Hospital, Boston and here's what they said. 
Either call or write to:

Richard Ferber, M.D.
Director, Center for Pediatric Sleep Disorders
The Children's Hospital
300 Longwood Ave.
Boston, MA 02115 
USA  (617) 735-6663

Apparently Ferber is *the* guy in Boston for all pediatric sleep disorders, and
handles lots of calls and letters asking for referrals. They have a sleep lab
at the hospital as part of the Center, and see patients.

Ferber's book lists another possible source of information:

Association of Sleep Disorders Centers
P.O. Box 2604
Del Mar, CA 92014
(619) 755-6556

Good luck,
    
    Lucy

    My daughter wet the bed until she was about 10 1/2 and sometimes it was
    3 or 4 times in a night.  Not just her bed but she'd crawl into ours
    and wet ours.  It was awful.  The doctor had her on the medication
    talked about earlier but that made her sick to her stomach at times and
    she refused to take it.  I just had faith that she'd out grow it and
    she did. I did find however near the end of her bed wetting years that
    I would say, ok, what's bothering you and she would open up and that
    would be the end of bedwetting for a while.  I beleive it has something
    to do with them emotionally.  Everytime she cleared off her chest what
    was wrong, she stopped wetting for a while.
    
    I have a 4 1/2 year old son who wets now!  He's small enough to leave
    training pants and rubber pants on him but he is beginning to outgrow
    them.  I try getting him up in the nighttime but sometimes it's too
    late or later on he goes again.  I just have resolved that I will have
    to go through this again!
    
    Good luck, remember not to scold!
    

    Have you checked food allergies? I read recently in a magazine
    called Family Health or something like that that an uncommon and
    often unrecognized side effect of histamine production can be
    problems with bladder control, especially in children.  They cited
    a study that gave some preliminary evidence that swelling of
    mucous tissues in the genital area numb sensation in the urethea
    (did I spell that right?) making it difficult to tell when you
    need to go.
    
    Apparently that's why some people tend to leak when they cough or
    sneeze  when they have a cold, but not at other times.
    
    --bonnie

    One thing to think about may be trying to talk to your son and see if
    HE can associate anything with it.  I know that I wet for more years
    than is 'normal', and everytime that I did, I would ALWAYS have a dream
    that I was IN the bathroom when I was actually still in bed.  It took a
    while, but eventually I was able to (thinking consciously) make myself
    afraid of the dream and force myself to wake up as soon as the dream
    started.  Varying degrees of success initially, but it eventually
    worked.  Now my six-year old has those same dreams .... kinda spooky,
    but it helps me deal with him, and also reminds me of how bad he feels
    about it.
    
    Good luck with your son - maybe showing him that other people have gone
    through this and grown out of it will help ?? (print out some notes for
    him).
    
    Patty

I followed the suggestion here and wrote to Dr. Ferber.  I thought I'd share 
some extracts from his letter with you.  I really found it very kind of him to
take the time to reply to me and will try to visit him on a trip to Boston 
sometime.

...Your son Markus has a problem that is certainly not uncommon at the age of
10.  Furthermore, the difficulty waking such a child is not unusual either.  In
fact, although this difficulty in being wakened is common in children who wet
the bed, the same difficulty can be found in many other youngsters ...  In terms
of the alarm system waking everyone in the house except Markus, that is not only
common but that is what is supposed to happen at first since using the alarm is 
a family project with the ultimate goal being that the youngster learns to
respond to signals from the bladder in such a way that it forces him awake.

...

There was quite a lot else including an offer to see us if we came to Boston.
He also suggested that we ask Markus to try holding his urine as long as
possible in the afternoon and then measuring the quantity.  If it is small, then
there are exercises could be added to help him increase his holding capacity.

Unfortunately he did not know a Dr. in Geneva but I will maintain the contact in
the hopes that one of his colleagues might come up with a name.

I'll read Markus the letter tonight.  I'm sure it will help him just to know 
that "an expert" says that this isn't unusual.

Thank you all for your help.

Cheryl

    I want to share a new method I have successfully used with my 9 (now
    10) year old boy.  I tried many of the methods mentioned herein without
    lasting success.  I spoke with an Artistic Therapist and in the
    discussion we decided to try fighting the watery aspect of this with
    fire.  We gave my son a seed from a hot pepper (very hot pepper) and
    had him swallow it with a little water.  If one were to crack the seed
    in their mouth it would burn for quite a while.  The resulting quiet
    fire in his digestive system seems to have worked.  Its been several
    weeks now and even nights following ice cream eating (always a problem
    in the past) are now dry.  This is not a scientific study - one case,
    but if anyone else tries it, please let me know your results in this
    notesfile. 
    		Andrew

    Maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I don't understand what the "hot
    seed" has to do with bedwetting.
    
    -sandy (mother of dry boys at night)
    

    Breaks down and creates a burning sensation in the urethra?
    
    Leslie

I read once about a method to "train the bladder."  Some children simply
have weak or small bladders, and need to train the muscles.  During the
day you have them drink LOTS of liquids and hold it until they are about
to burst.  They will learn to hold it longer and longer.

Also, the same article suggested NOT getting them up in the middle of the
night, because that adds to the problem of them having to go to the bathroom
in the middle of the night.

FWIW

    re: .57
    Maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I don't understand what the "hot
    seed" has to do with bedwetting.
    
    -sandy (mother of dry boys at night)
    
    my apologies sandy for being so brief - I'm at a new job and have much
    to do.  I accept principles in Homeopathy and Anthroposophic medicine. 
    These approaches take advantage of the (presumed) relationship of the
    human to the mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms.  They see the human
    as a four-fold composition of earth, water, air, and fire which are
    symbols for physical body, life body, soul body, and ego-self.  Using
    this model and knowledge from the "mystery" centers of old, eg Greek
    schools such as School of Athens, the School of Chartres, Hiberian,
    with modern research, scientists have found ways to strengthen the
    immune system, for example, with medicaments from nature.  Like heals
    like is fundamental to homeopathy which means that the plant that
    causes symptoms like those of an illness contain an ingredient that
    will stimulate the immune system to overcome the illness.  So a heavy
    dose of the plant will cause symptoms while a specially diluted dose
    will stimulate the immune system to overcome the symptoms. 
    Anthroposophical medicine takes this further that this alone is not a
    full healing, that the illness itself can come from illness of one of
    the other bodies (other than the physical where the illness is
    eventually manifested).  
    
    Now I am not suggesting that bedwetting is an illness! I believe in
    many cases it may be a lack of consciousness in the bladder and lower
    disgestive system.  As other noters have pointed out - having the child
    drink lots and holding it as long as possible not only expands the
    bladder, but also brings more consciousness to the bladder.  Discomfort
    does this.  Now lack of consciousness is often from too much
    wateryness, too much life forces without enough penetration of the soul
    and ego into that part of the body.  Bringing "fire" to it "dries" it
    up as it brings consciousness from the soul and self-awareness bodies
    to that part of the physical body, especially the self-awareness or ego
    body.  
    
    Now my son has not complained of any burning - this works gently yet
    provides a way for this kind of penetration so that his will can take
    charge.  I have been amazed at how well it has worked.  I tested it on
    myself for discomfort - none.  So I posted it to see if it works for
    others.  If this works, science may come up with another explanation
    and that would be fine with me.  It has been through Alchemy that much
    of the old medicinal wisdom came.  
    
    re .58
    
    Leslie, it does NOT create a burning sensation in the urethra or
    anywhere.  If one ate a big bite of this pepper it would cause you to
    sweat profusely and burn some in the anal canal.  This "treatment" is
    one seed swallowed in water so that it does not contact the mouth or
    throat thereby not burning where one is most digestively sensitive.
    
    Andrew
    
    PS  - I recognize my explanation has probably left some more confused
    and perhaps feel I must be out in left field with my non-traditional
    thinking.  OK - skip the explanation, but try the "remedy" and let me
    know if it works, thanks.  

Markus and I will give it a try.  We'll try ANYTHING (as long at it isn't life
threatening :-)

How long did it take to work?  Will any hot pepper seed do?  I can get canned
jalape�os here.  Will one from those do?  He loves hot sauce.  Could I just
give him some corn chips and sauce?

I'm not kidding either.  It seems harmless enough and we're really desparate.

ccb

<    I tested it on myself for discomfort - none.  

Andrew, for how long did you test it on yourself?  One time, or for a solid
week, or month?

How often does your son eat this?  Every day for a week?  A month?  Longer?
Has he been doing this every day or every other day or what?

I am concerned that if you did not test it over an extensive period of time,
and if he is taking this over an extensive period of time, your test on
yourself may not be valid.

      Carol

    Well, I have been a consumer of mexican/spicy foods for a long time and
    I can vouch for the fact that:
    
    	1) the bladder/urethra will not be affected by one seed (even if
    chewed - which is not the case here)
    	2) the affect will be most likely on the colon/rectal area, but one
    can guarantee one seed a day will have no ill effects even on the most
    sensitive yet average person
    
    I have eaten jalapeno's whole (seeds and all) and not had my urinary
    tract affected.  I will not go into detail about the colon area....
    8-| but I will let your imagination take over.
    
    -sandy

    re .61
    
    I belong to a bio-dynamic community farm located in Temple and Wilton
    NH.  The peppers come fresh from the farm.  I'm sorry but I don't know
    the name of them. They are hotter than Hungarian peppers and most USA
    commercially available mexican peppers.  They are shaped like a
    shriveled young green bean with a J curve.  I did not try Jalopenas as
    my farm did not have these but I believe the same principle applies. 
    Let me know if they work.
    
    I give him ONE seed in about 1/4 cup of water (small juice glass less
    than half full) about 45 minutes before bedtime.  Actually he does it
    himself now as he believes in it - he has NOT ONCE wet his bed since
    starting about 7 weeks ago.  A problem arose last night, however - BE
    ALERT for this - right after he cut the pepper and handled the seed he
    rubbed his eye.  Some of the hot juice got in his eye and irritated it. 
    Warn your boy about this danger and have him wash his hands immediately
    afterwards.  He was not in much pain and after washing his face he
    complained no more but I suspect it could be tramatic if a lot of the
    juice got in his eye.
    
    re .62
    I only tried it on myself one time after a light supper.  It had no
    effect (I did not wet my bed ;>) ).  I agree with .63 - and add that
    this is a food source taken in minute amounts - I believe it can have
    NO harmful effects but I cannot prove this with long term studies such
    as the drug companies must do which cost $$$Millions.  I do want to say
    that I appreciate your concern - children should not be subjected to
    experiments with drugs and wild concoctions.  I see this as adding
    something to his food diet, like spicing his food, not a drug.  BTW: 
    He does not like hot spices.
    				Andrew  

Maybe we aren't doing it correctly.  I will look for some fresh pepers in the
shops and try a single seed as suggested.

We tried a slice of jalape�o with five or sic seeds attached.  Markus thought
this was real fun.  He pretended to be a fire breathing dragon afterwards.  I
didn't bother with the water etc. since he doesn't mind hot foods but pure
jalape�o...whew!  I think he was dissapointed when it didn't seem to have an
effect.

Will keep you informed.

Cheryl

    re .64 and the comment about not considering something a drug.
    
    *Anything* you eat, inject, rub on your body etc. for *the sole
    purpose of altering bodily function* is a DRUG, whether it is a
    foodstuff, manufactured chemical, or whatever (where we are considering
    a drug as a medication).
    
    Thus it does not matter if something is naturally produced, synthetic,
    manufactured or whatever.  Most drugs have side effects, including
    *placebos*.  If it is consumed to alter bodily function, it is a
    drug, and should be treated with the same respect as any drug that
    you can buy OTC or that a Doctor prescribes.
    
    So, in the case of a foodstuff, don't simply assume that it is OK ...
    after all diabetics are sensitive to sugars & many people are allergic
    to all manner of things.  Now granted, a pepper seed is unlikely to
    cause a problem BUT beware is the watchword.
    
    Beware when making suggestions that you don't accidentally cross the
    line into prescribing -- the safest way is to say that X works for you
    and that it has these effects.
    
    Stuart

re: Hot Pepper remedy

Does your son not have to urinate during the night, or does he now wake up to 
urinate?

BTW I second the warning about rubbing your eyes.  I once picked a jalapeno 
from the garden, chopped it up, and put it in my morning omelette.  I then put 
in a contact lens.  That was one of my most painful experiences ever.

Clay

    re .65 <tried it without success>
    thanks for the feedback.  Perhaps this "remedy" merely gives the
    pyschological or biological push when the child is ready.  My son just
    turned 10 - how old is yours?
    
    re .67
    Webster says "a substance other than food intended to affect the
    structure or function of the body" for a definition of drug.  I suppose
    one basic difference in your view and mine is that I see a difference
    between a chemically produced compound and the occurrance of that
    compound in a plant, animal, or human.  When that compound is extracted
    from the plant, for example, it then is changed and "decays" quickly
    to be like the chemical.  More is present in the plant than the sum of
    the chemical compounds - LIFE for example.  In a seed LIFE is
    concentrated as potential (perhaps .65 used "dead" seeds).  Sugar
    crystals are compounds removed from the plant.  As a syrup it can last
    longer nutritionally than once it has been heated to or beyond the
    human temperature (98.6) which brings on "decay."  This is true of milk
    as well.
    
    .re 68
    Most of the time (post pepper) my son would wake up on his own, but he
    also has been sleeping through the night dry.  I'm not sure if he's
    just outgrown bedwetting and the seed is a psychological boost or if
    the seed helped him wake up and thereby develop confidence that then
    allowed him to sleep through the night.  Another reason why I hope to
    hear from others who try this. 

>    re .67
>    Webster says "a substance other than food intended to affect the
>    structure or function of the body" for a definition of drug.  I suppose
>    one basic difference in your view and mine is that I see a difference
>    between a chemically produced compound and the occurrance of that
>    compound in a plant, animal, or human.  When that compound is extracted

I think Webster is a little limiting in its definition, but even that is
far more generous than many herbalists, naturopaths or homeopaths seem to
admit.

Whether there is a chemical difference among naturally produced chemical
compounds in situ, extracted compounds or synthetically produced compounds
is very debateable ... like the differences between generic and name brand
drugs where usually the only measurable difference might be the absorption 
rate.

For example, digitalis is a powerful heart stimulant ... you can either get
it manufactured, or eat purple foxglove leaves ... either way, it can kill
you ... foxgloves are very common and perfectly natural.  Similarly,
belladonna was used as a narcotic (sleep inducing agent) and heart drug, is
extracted from any part of the deadly nightshade plant ... a very common
wildflower and again perfectly natural.  The tomato plant is a member of the
nightshade family.  The fruits we eat like they are going out of style, the
leaves on the other hand show the plant's genus because they are poisonous.
Apples are delicious, but did you know that the seeds of apples should be
avoided because they have high concentrations of toxins from fertilizers
and pesticides compared with the flesh.

Yes, by all means use natural products, but beware just because something is
natural does NOT mean it is good for you, or that it is any better than a
synthetic product.  Moreover, just because you eat a pepper's flesh does not
mean that you can eat the seeds with safety.

Stuart

re: .69

Thanks for the clarification.  I am far more mainstream in my views, and
confess to being somewhat skeptical of your reasoning.  It occurred to me that
there may be an effect of the pepper seed that achieves the desired result
by a mechanism that is more logical to me.

For example:

     -    the pepper seed causes a very mild irritation in the digestive
          tract, enough so that the person doesn't sleep quite so soundly,
          and therefore the child wakes up when s/he needs to urinate;

     -    the pepper seed inhibits the production of urine or causes the body
          to retain fluid; or

     -    the effect is psychological rather than physiological.  For
          example, it would be interesting to know the effect of a
          substituting a seed that is physically identical but came from a
          "sweet" pepper.  I consider this somewhat likely, in that your son
          is at an age that many children "grow out" of bedwetting, and that
          he certainly must be aware of your views, and would *want* this
          remedy to work even more than the rather strong desire he must have
          already to be "dry".

In any case, if it works, and isn't harmful, then it's fine with me,
regardless of the mechanism by which it works.

Clay

    Me again.
    
    Re. .69 My son is almost 11.  If any kid EVER wanted to stop
    bedwettinfg, it's this one.  He wets almost every night now although we
    have gone through good periods  (sigh....)
    
    I agree somewhat with .71 about your possible transferal of success
    wishes to your son along with the age.  Like I said, I'll try it again
    but my kid knows that we're not dedicated to natural remedies as you
    may be. Please don't anyone take offense, we'll use what works and
    what's been prescribed, but I can't transfer a belief to my kids that I
    don't have.  We already tried one dr. recommended homeopathic solution
    that both of us had high hopes for with no success.  This one just
    seems so far out.
    
    And, I am really happy for you (and envious!!) that you have found
    something which works.  I wouldn't be asking why, I'd be down on my
    knees thanking the powers that be.
    
    As I said, when I find some fresh hot peppers, we'll have another go.
    
    (tears for my boy...)
    
    Cheryl

    I think those are banana peppers you're describing.  They're the
    kind you get on a hot Italian sub.
    
    Nutritionally, peppers are very good for you.  High in vitamin C
    and a lot of other good stuff.  I don't know about pepper seeds,
    though I know I often leave some of the seeds clinging to bell
    peppers.  The seeds have all the hot oil in them.
    
    --bonnie, who spent one whole summer making subs in a sandwich shop . . .

Last evening on the Radio France 3 news as I was driving home I heard a 
news story that a medication has been found which cures enuresis.  Of
course I only caught it when he mentioned the disease being cured so I don't
know where the medication was developed (it started out .....scientists at
xxx have disc....etc.) but it said that it would cure enuresis in virtually
all cases including chronic adult wetters with NO PSYCHOLOGICAL side effects.

I intend to call my pediatrician today to see if he has heard of this.  Of 
course, if it was developed in France, it may take awhile to cross the border.

Cheryl

    Cheryl, I've been avoiding this note thinking this is the one I had
    place the entry....oh well...!!
    
    This drug HAS his the U.S.!  I heard it a couple weeks ago while out
    doing lunch errands on an AM radio station.  One of those "call in and
    ask the doctor" syndicated type programs. (the FM side of my car radio
    has died mysteriously)  He too did NOT mention a name, he seemed to be
    specificially avoiding nameing the drug.  He kept saying to contact
    your physician.
    
    The basis of the drug seems to be that it shuts down the kidney
    function for several hour, without any body harm.  And upon waking,
    when the body become functional again the kidneys will again start
    functioning, and the bladder will become full in a short time.  I may
    be way off base on the actual description, but I do remember him saying
    that is stops the production of urine for several hours.
    
    The other thing he suggested is that nightime bedwetting may be caused
    by bladder spasm.  When the bladder has a spasm, it "forces" out some
    urine, which would appear to be the same as bedwetting.
    
    Just some thought...
    Lyn

    Well last night we celebrated my older son's 12th birthday.  Its the 10
    year old who was the bedwetter.  We had ice cream which has had a very
    strong correlation to wet beds. It was late since the birthday boy had
    been on a class trip and got back after 8 pm.  I forgot to have the 10
    year old have his pepper seed - partly because of the time and partly
    because he has been doing it himself.  Yes, he wet the bed.
    
    Andrew

    He's been dry since Sept 26-27 night and he's had his banana pepper
    seed each night before bed.

    re .76 & .77
    
    Which correlation here is the correct one ????
    
    Forgot seed -> Wet bed
    
    or 
    
    Had ICE CREAM -> Wet bed
    
    
    You mentioned that ice cream has a distict correlation with wet beds.
    
    
    To be sure that it really is this particular pepper seed which is
    giving you the dry beds what you'd need to do is substitute a different
    seed without telling your son or even hinting that it is a different
    seed.  If he was still dry, then the placebo effect at wrok here and
    the pepper seeds have nothing to do with it.
    
    Sorry if I am seem such a skeptic, but I really don't see how ONE
    seed can have such an influence, especially considering it is one
    per day.  If there is some chemical in there having the desired effect
    then it seems odd that missing just ONE night would guarantee a wet
    bed if he has been taking them over a long period.
    
    Stuart

I called the pedi and asked about this medicine but he didn't know of it.  The
nurse said that if I could go to the pharmacy and find out the name, he could
prescribe it.  Everything is closed here on Monday morning so I haven't 
gotten the name yet.  Does anyone know it?

Cheryl

    If a pepper seed works, whether in reality, or in placebo, who cares? 
    I've seen warts go away by rubbing a copper penny on them and then
    losing the penny, or simply telling the wart to go away.  Why shouldn't
    bed wetting work the same way?
    
    Meg
    
    Who likes having a little magic in the world

    Re new drug:

    I asked our pedi about this.  He gave me the following info:

    	1. Yes, it's relatively new - it's been available in the US
    	   for about a year - and yes - it was developed in France.

    	2. Like other medications, it doesn't "cure" the problem; rather
    	   it temporarily takes care of it by inhibiting certain
    	   bodily processes.

    	3. Like other medications, relapse after discontinued use is
    	   very common.

    	4. Like other medications, there are side effects.

    	5. According to him, "no pedi would prescribe it for someone
    	   younger than 10 or 11".

    	6. Being quite conservative himself, he said he wouldn't prescribe
    	   it at all unless there were special circumstances.
                                                                
    Sorry, I didn't catch the name of the drug.

    L.

Markus is soon to be 11 and wets every night.  We would try the pepper seed 
thing if I could find the fresh peppers.  The canned variety didn't have any 
effect.  We have tried Tofranil twice.  No effect.  He is wetting every night
now and has no friends outside of school hours for fear that they might discover
his secret.  School overnight outings are more than a traumatic experience.

Of course, I'm not willing to try "just anything" that might be dangerous or
whatever but, I think Mark would agree with me, that we'll try anything within
reason.

When my husband goes away for an extended business trip we will also try the
alarm pad again.

When he is cured (and he one day will be, I have faith :-) I will post the
solution here.

ccb

>    If a pepper seed works, whether in reality, or in placebo, who cares? 

If it works for medical reasons, then great.  I wish my folks knew about 
it when I was a kid.  If it works because it's a placebo, then 
superstition applies.

One of the aspects of superstition is that if it works, nobody minds it. 
The problem is when it doesn't work.  Then, even though there was no 
reason that it should work, people are left with the feeling that 
something is "wrong."  The parent who used it in good faith might worry 
needlessly that something is wrong with their child.  The child whose 
parents told him it would stop the problem will have a massive rush of 
fear that something is wrong and guilt that it's their fault.

>>>==>PStJTT

The pharmacist said the name was emurine and that it had been developed in 
France where it has been available for years.  It only recently became available
in Switzerland which is why it is a "new" drug.

I'd appreciate any information anyone has on this drug and thank Larry (.81)
for his input.  I'd rather like to know what the side effects are.

I'll be contacting the pediatrician later to see what they know.

If it works by inhibiting the kidneys, isn't that extremely dangerous?  But then
the FDA is so cautious on drug approval compared to here, it makes me wonder.

Regards,
Cheryl

    Cheryl,
    
    Peppers are very easy to grow inside if you have a sunny window
    and the inclination -- they look pretty too.
    
    Lots of drugs have been used for years in France but have been
    taken off the US market or never allowed in...
    
    It's mostly an exaggerated reaction to the thalidomide tragedy of
    the '50s, when a drug that was readily available in France and
    Germany but was held up by "stupid US regulations about medicines"
    turned out to cause birth defects . . . 
    
    Is "emurine" the brand name or the generic name of the drug?  It
    sounds vaguely familiar.
    
    --bonnie

I don't really have time to grow anything.  My cleaning lady takes pity from
time to time on my few house plants and waters those that aren't completely
dead but that's about it.  

I know that drug approval is very different from country to country.  This 
medicine has just come on the Swiss market but, if it is true that it has been
on the U.S. market for a year I was hoping someone in this community might have
heard about it.  As far as I know emurine is the generic name but it might also
be the brand name.  My husband who is German got it from a French pharmacist
in a Swiss pharmacy and gave me (American) the name over the phone so who
knows what permutations the name has gone through :-)  For example, the name
might possibly be "enurine" since the name of the condition it is supposed to
cure is enuresis (also in French).

I'd like to go armed to the pediatrician with a bit of background information
before I let him prescribe this stuff.  I'd also like to know if perhaps it
isn't harmful (or is less harmful) if taken for very short periods of time.
Like if he wants to stay at a friend's house or go on a week long overnight
camp, could he use it during that period with little or no side effect?  Does
it have immediate effect (like take it before bed and you don't wet).

Of course I'll ask the doctor these questions but I was hoping there might be
some experience out there.

Thanks,
Cheryl

    To my skeptics -
    
    Thank you! I believe I may have mislead some to believe this is a cure. 
    It has worked on my son who wet his bed 4-5 times per week.  The reason
    for bedwetting, I suspect, varies from child to child.  Family tension,
    peer tension, poorly developed bladder, too sound a sleeper, ... When I
    was 10 I used to dream that I had woken up and walked to the bathroom
    where I would pee - only to wake up and discover I was still in my bed. 
    
    I have been studying for several years alternative models of the human
    (actually ancient models - Greek period) - of Body, Life, Soul, and
    Spirit and the relationship of these to Earth, Water, Air, and Fire
    respectively.  With a therapist who has also been studying this we ar-
    rived at a conjecture that to combat the "water" problem we could fight
    with "fire."  This meant to bring the consciousness to these lower
    organs.  The alarm pad can do this by waking the child on detection of
    urine.  My method I hoped would assist the penetration of my son's
    consciousness through the "fire" of the pepper seed into his lower
    organs.  Now why banana peppers worked for my son and canned peppers
    did not for Cheryl's - I do not know.  My conjecture might work only
    for my son's case.  Perhaps it is merely a placebo and psychologically
    has been effective.  To help answer this is I asked other parents to
    try it and report back.  I wish I had been clearer that I did not
    believe I had found THE cure.  I wanted more data and to share
    something that has seemed to work for us.
    
    The comments from .83 are good.  I do not wish to start a new
    superstition nor new anxiety in parents or their sons.  I doubt the hot
    pepper seed will work in all cases, but perhaps it will work in some. 
    If so, I would like to find the correlation - then again I am not in a
    position to conduct scientific studies through a notesfile or be
    believed by the medical community.

>    
>    Is "emurine" the brand name or the generic name of the drug?  It
>    sounds vaguely familiar.
>    
Sounds rather like Murine Eye Drops doesn't it ... talk about confusion.
I hope that this drug is used carefully ... I saw a thing on TV the other
night on TVOntario (our PBS equivalent) about how Imodium drops were used
in Pakistan to ease diahorrea but was routinely overdosed and thus killed
hundreds of babies.  The stuff literally stops the intestines.

If this stops the kidneys from working ... well ... the paralllels are
too frightening!

Stuart

    I have read in a home remedy book by a Dr. from Vermont that a teaspoon
    of honey shortly before bedtime can help 'because it absorbs water from
    the system'. Its harmless and worth a try I would think. Also, sticking
    with it for a while would be appropriate, that is, not just try one or
    two nights before deciding 'it doesn't work'.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    
    Honey is my mother's and grandmother's old standby.  I had forgotten
    until reading these notes.  It may also apply on the placebo effect or
    not (your mileage may vary) but it is worth a shot.  
    
    I am a firm believer in placebo effects on a lot of things, but my
    opinion is still if it works and it hurts nothing, then try it.  I
    guess it's like "witching" warts off.  I can do it successfully for my
    kids, and other people, but I can't do it for myself.  Now if someone
    can come up with the cure for *me*, I would be endlessly greatful.
    
    Meg (lumpty feet can be a pain)  

    Ohhhh boy ... and I thought the pepper seed was weird!
    
    How can honey possibly absorb water from the system, when the system
    you're talking about is some 90+% water in the first place!
    
    What *MIGHT* happen, along the same lines as giving a baby corn
    syrup is that it might tend to loosen the bowel by cutting
    down on the moisture absorption from the intestines.  That is
    on the assumption that there is still a significant amount of
    water in the indigestion system still.  But most bedwetters have
    so little fluid after supper that they probably actually run the risk
    of dehydration overnight!
    
    So, it *might* work, but this one has me even more skeptical especially
    considering that the description of how it works makes absolutely no
    scientific or biological sense.
    
    Absorbs the water indeed ... :-(
    
    Stuart

    Stuart,
    
    Honey is hygroscopic in nature.  It doesn't have as much water as it
    can absorb.  My mother didn't say any voodoo about honey absorbing
    water, she just said it soothed things down.  However we have used
    honey as a drawing agent in infections and bedsores.  Amazing what
    remedies you can wind up using when antibiotic allergies are a real and
    present danger to the person who has the infection.
    
    Meg

    I think my phrasing needs to be re written.  I'm not totally sure that
    I heard the doctor actually say it stops kidney function.  What I
    believe more that I heard him say is that the drug stops the production
    of urine for a period of time.  I would translate that loosly to meant
    that the kidney still remain functional, but no urine is produced.
    
    There is a book called a PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) that lists
    just about any drug, over the counter or prescription by both its
    generic and commerical name, it also lists different strengths available, 
    side effects and warnings.  Most pharmacies have either this
    or a similar book available to them.  Try asking the pharmacist the
    next time you are in a drugstore.  (the CVS's and Brooks are great ones
    for info with no obligation, from my experience)
    
    There are also a couple paperback guides to drugs available in
    bookstores.  One of the women on our ambulance service keeps one in her 
    trauma kit, just for her reference.  They seem to "invent" drugs so rapidly
    even we, the "medical professionals" can't keep track anymore!
    
    Lyn

Lyn, thanks very much for the clarification.  I'm afraid that I am in Europe
and we don't have the PDR so if anyone does and could look up this thing for
me, I'd appreciate it.

Cheryl

    If this little pill is the same thing that my daughter took, then what
    my DR. explained to me was that it help the bladder muscles to be a
    little stronger and hold the urine for a longer period of time.  He
    explained that a lot of children wet because they are such heavy
    sleepers they cannot feel the sensation that they need to go to the
    bathroom therefore their muscles being relaxed they just go.
    
    I still maintain with my daughter it was emotional.  When something
    was bothering her and we talked about it she had dry nights.  I
    remember one night she was in 5th grade I think, she confessed she had
    written on the bathroom wall when she was in 2nd grade and she carried
    that guilt for so long (I had told her that was very wrong to do -
    damaging property that didn't belong to her) I think that is when her
    wetting just about stopped.  -- True confessions!
    
    My son -- he's a real heavy sleeper.  If I wake him at the right time
    in the night to go to the bathroom he is dry.  But sometimes it's too
    early and I can't wake him enough to go or it's too late and he
    "fights" me and says he doesn't need to go! -- usually to wake up with 
    a wet bed!
    
    

I just received a copy of Dr. Ferber's book on solve your child's sleep
problems.  There is a whole chapter in there on enuresis.  I devoured it and
now Mark and I are trying out the techniques.  The book laid to rest a lot
of misconceptions I had.  I also now believe that the "little pill" must be
Tofranil which my son has tried twice with only initial success.

So, what the book says is a combination of things.  One is bladder training
during the day and the second is learning to respond to the feeling (i.e.
to wake up) during the night.  To accomplish the bladder control, we are
measuring the amount of urine Mark makes each time he goes for two days and
note the time also when he goes.  He does this himself.  This is important
because the child has to get control of the system himself.

After two days, we look at the largest amount and name amount over that 
(double it, for example). Then he practices holding until he can't stand it.
He also has to drink lots of water and then practice holding it.  When he 
urinates, he has to practice "turning it on and off".  The idea is also to 
extend the length of time between urinating.

At night we use the pad and alarm which wakes him when he wets.  Last night he
actually woke up from the alarm before he had actually finished and still had
200 ml that he "measured".  We are both TOTALLY COMMITTED.  So I let you know 
how it goes.

If any one is interested in what Dr. Ferber has to say, let me know and I'll
put some comments in here.

Cheryl

    I haven't read all the notes but I called my sister-in-law cause her
    son, age 12 has been using a nasal spray, DDAVP, successfully for over
    a year now.  The only drawback that I am aware of is that it needs to
    be kept in the fridge.

We tried the pad and measuring and everything that went with it for about 
two weeks.  Both Mark and I were a nervous wreck.  I could hardly get off to
work and I think it started affecting his school.  I think I'll just wait
until he stops by himself.

He has since stayed over night at a friend's house one weekend when we were
away.  He didn't wet.  He also didn't wet when I went on a business trip and
our cleaning lady looked after him.  I think that when he is insecure he 
doesn't sleep as deeply and manages to control his muscles.

If we do one of these camping trips in the western US next year, I think I'll 
look into adult diapers.  He'd be willing to wear them if it's just family.
Does anyone have any information on them or something similar that ould fit an
11 year old?

Cheryl

            <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES5:[NOTES$LIBRARY_5OF5]HOMEOPATHY.NOTE;1
    >>>
                                    -< Homeopathy >-
    ================================================================================
    Note 78.1                   Any cures for bedwetting?                    
    1 of 2
    MCIS2::SCHULMAN "SANFORD"                            20 lines 
    20-DEC-1991 09:35
                    -< Homeopathy combined with herbal nutrition  >-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        There is an homeopathic remedy made up of 
        	Ammonium Carbonate (6x)
        	Worm seed (6x)
        	Scouring Rush (6x)
        	Benzoic Acid (8x)
        	Hanemanns Causticum (8x)
        	Mullein (8x)
        Note: Not to be taken by children under the age of two.
        
        In addition, there are some herbs that have a reputation for
    helping
        this situation.
        	Oatstraw
        	Buchu
        	Cornsilk
        	Several Herbal combinations.
        
        You will find that urination during waking hours will increase.
    This is
        normal.
        
        If you need more info, please feel free to contactme 
    
    	=======SANFORD============

    While .99 was trying to be helpful, there is one major problem
    with the recipe for the homoepathic formula and the herbs -
    no indications of the amounts to be taken are given.
    
    I would have serious concern about giving anyone the mixture of
    ingredients in that homeopatic recipe ... The two overtly named
    chemicals ... are mild acid and mild alkali, so there will be
    beyond doubt unknown chemical reactions that may depend on the
    order of combining the mixture and so on.  Even if you know the
    effects on the body of any of these chemicals individually, the
    effects of the numerous combinations are indeterminate.  It looks
    like a real "witches brew"!!!
    
    Stuart

    The homeopathic remedy I entered is an approved over the counter
    combination and not something that has just been "thrown together". I
    listed the ingredients in anticipation of "what's in it" questions. 
    If you need more info, let me know and I'll get the dosage
    recommendation from the label, etc

    And I believe the (6x) stuff was specifications of the amounts
    (probably in the form of equal volumes of n-fold dilutions by
    a factor of ten).
    
    Why not go look at the referenced note?
    
    			-John Bishop

    John.
     Your analysis is accurate. 6x refers to dilution of six times
    ten. The metric is standard in Homeopathic practice. You'll seldom see
    anything "over the counter" greater than 12x. Recognize that the more
    diluted the remedy, the greater it's effect. Doesn't sound right, but
    it's a fact. Higher dilutions are normally prescribed.
    
    	===========SANFORD============

    Don't get me wrong here ... I know I'm a holistic skeptic but what
    I wanted to ensure was that no-one should take the list of ingredients
    and throw them together and use the mixture as is; again not that I'd
    expect anyone here would do that anyway, but we walk the line of safety
    everywhere these days.  Because there are reactive chemicals in there,
    the order of combination may well be important; there is more to
    any recipe than its list of ingredients.  And of course dosage is
    important too.
    
    The list of ingredients of even some respected cough syrups and other
    medications also make them look like witches brews too!  Never mind
    the modern cough syrup of assorted chemicals like DM (Dextramethorphen
    Hydrobromide) in a syropy sweet carrier.
    
    So my intention wan't to shoot the messenger really, and I apologise if
    it came across that way.
    
    Stuart

I've also written to Sanford off-line but thought other parents might be
interested in the information.

Sanford,

Could you provide more details about possible side effects and what the success
rate of treatment with this is?  Is there recursion when the medicine is
stopped?  Has anyone got a personal success story or know anyone who's used it?

...still desperately looking for a solution for my poor son...

cheryl

    
    My daughter Kimberly is 5 and had been wetting the bed for the past
    3 years. Kim is a very sound sleeper and never even woke up if she
    wet the bed. 
    
    My Mom told me to take her to the chiropractor and sure enough after 3 
    visits the bedwetting decreased and after 10 visits it stopped all
    together. According to the chiropractor, children who sleep very 
    soundly and wet the bed because they don't wake, have a very tight 
    diaphram. The Doctor exercised her diaphram and caused it to expand
    and thereby increased the amount of oxygen she would breathe in.
    
      Apparently this would enable her to sleep lighter and she now wakes
    up when sho needs to use the bathroom. Once we stopped seeing him, Kim
    started to regress a little. The doctor told us to take one of her
    shoes off and let her walk around like that for 15 min a day and that
    also exercise her diaphram.
    
       Unbelievable but it really worked for my daughter.
    
                            Jill
    

    Help!!,
    
    
    I have a 6 year old son who is still a bed wetter.  This problem has
    been going on since he's been out of diaper.  I've talked with his
    pediatrician, she say 10% of boy 6 years old still wet the bed.  She
    suggested this alarm that you attach to the mattress and goes off
    when it feel moisture.  Has anyone used this??
    
    I've checked into to a few organizations that deal with this problem,
    one of which is called Pacific Institutes,  they deal with children
    that are heavy sleepers (which I believe is my sons problem),  The
    only thing is they charge $1,200 for there program.
    
    Please help, I'm tired of doing laundry every morning!!!!!

Markus is 11.5 and still wets every night.  We've tried everything including the
pad/alarm.  I suggest two things:

1. Read the rest of this string of replies.  There is a wealth of experience 
   here.

2.  Get Dr. Ferber's book "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems".  It has an
   excellent chapter on bedwetting.

Cheryl (I must be the most experience mother of a bedwetter in this conference 
:-)

re : <<< Note 282.107 by ISLNDS::COSTA_P >>>
           -< 6 year old bed wetter >-

	I second .108's recommendation - also, check your son's eating/
	drinking/bedtime schedule - I have found with my son, if he is
	VERY overtired and has stuff too close to bedtime, we still have
	an occasional problem - if he's been getting enough rest and
	has "last call" 30-45 minutes before he goes to bed (except for
	teeth-brushing small rinse/drink), we're usually ok.  Of course,
	right now things are in such a state of chaos at my house, we've
	had a slight regression (three accidents in 1 week), but hopefully
	things are settling down again now.

	Good luck !

	Debbi J

    I have not read all the replies here, so this may have been mention. 
    We instantly stopped one of my daughters from wetting the bed.  All we
    had to do was change to flannel sheets.  According to an article I read
    in a magazine, many times a child wets for warmth.  The regular sheets
    feel cold on the skin.  She had never wet the bed with flannel sheets.
    It's worked perfectly for two other families that I mentioned it to.
    
    Chris D.

Markus has flannel bottom sheet and a washable down comforter (duvet).  He is
very warm at night.

The last suggestion I had from someone was to massage the bladder area just 
before he sleeps.  

Honestly, if soemone could just give me one suggestion that is guaranteed to 
work and not put him through yet another cycle of high hopes and failed cures,
...well I know that's unrealistic but there is only so much you can ask of
a child.

I think we'll just let it wait awhile.

Cheryl

    He may be warm, but what is the material used for the comforter?
    It's not that they are cold, it's that the material FEELS cold on the
    skin.
    
    Chris D.
    
    p.s. What's "duvet"?

>    
>    p.s. What's "duvet"?


A duvet is a full bed quilt ... but not the old fashioned heavy kind,
usually filled with down, feather and down, or some of the new polyester
fibre-fill type materials.  N. Americans often refer to them as comforters.

Usually you put them in a sheet-bag, plain or patterned, so you need
neither a separate sheet, nor a bedspread (counterpane).  The feather
ones are really neat because in the summer, you shake most of the feathers
to the bottom, and in the winter you shake 'em towards the top!

Often known as a Continental Quilt.

Stuart

-.1 was right concerning a duvet.

Normally we like to cover them with crisp linen covers.  We have German style 
down duvets which means that each of us has his own and there is no fight for
the covers :-)  If part of you gets TOO warm (the only risk with duvets) you
just stick out a leg or arm to cool off.

Markus has a polyester filled duvet covered with a brushed cotton fabric which 
we do not bother to put in a cover since it gets washed almost daily.  The
duvet has been washed so often that the outer fabric has the consistancy of
flannel.  On top of this, if he wants he can add additional covers but he 
complains he is too hot then.

My philosphy in bedding is minimum laundry and minimum bedmaking.  Duvets are
wonderful for this and the most comfortable way to sleep that I have ever
experienced.

Cheryl

Dear Abby had several letters today about bed wetters.  Apparently hundreds
of people had written to her that chiropractic adjustment has solved the
unsolvable for them.

Also, some nasal spray has helped many others.

FWIW