Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Kate, 
    
    I don't know if it some type of stage because my son, 2.5 as well, has
    started to hit on occasion. We tried all the things you are doing as
    well. He usually hits when he gets excited and comes running over to us
    or when he's mad (usually when he is told to do something and he just
    doesn't feel like it and it close enough to take a wack). 
    
    One day he really hit me right and it really
    hurt. I told him he hurt me and not to hit me again or he'd be
    punished. Well, he decided to tempt fate and really hit me again. So I
    slapped his hand and he hit again. So I slapped his hand (all the time
    making sure it did sting him) and kept repeating "it hurts to be hit
    doesn't it??". Well, he could have cared less and we must have
    exchanged hits about 12 times (my leg hurt but his hand had to hurt
    worse). The look on his face was incredible and he just gave up.
    Later we talked about it and I really stressed that I hit him to show
    how it hurts. He admitted his hand hurt and I told him my leg hurt and
    we shouldn't hit again (unless it is a spanking for being VERY
    naughty).
    
    I don't think there is a solution except reinforcement that hitting
    isn't nice, it hurts and it isn't acceptable for any reason (except for
    being very naughty or for self-defense ; explanation to come later to
    him). We are just riding it out and really stressing that it is
    unacceptable. My son has never hit another child (that I know of) or 
    adult but he does comment about other children in his daycare hitting 
    other kids or him. Maybe he's acting it out at home because he knows 
    what the exact consequences are at daycare becasue he has seen the 
    reaction of the "teachers". I also try to be really careful about 
    threatening him with a spanking. I figure that maybe he thinks it is 
    all right for me the "hit" so he can try it out. After a spanking 
    (even one swat) we talk about why he got the spanking. We definitely 
    call it "spanking" and not "hitting" (your bum) hoping he will see 
    a distinction between the 2.
    
    Maybe there is a solution. Parents?!?!
    
    Andrea
    

    I follow the procedures outlined in .0  My 3 year old has exhibited 
    similiar behavior and we have reacted as in .0.  I hope that Matt 
    sees the difference between hitting and spanking, I am not sure I do
    though, and perhaps the spanking is a problem for that reason.  I have
    reduced my spankable offenses to RARE occasions, (maybe once every six
    months). In any case I think your 'doing the right things' and would be
    suprised if you have a long term problem.  I am not sure about the
    spanking.  Sometimes a spanking is what it takes to make a point about
    not doing something.  That would be after everything else didn't work.
    'Reduced to desperation, spanking', yes, sometimes.  As  child I was
    spanked occasionally and I don't think it taught me to hit. I realized
    that spanking was done out of desperation by my parents rather than 
    because they wanted to hurt me.  I would use spanking only as a last
    resort.  There are those who will tell you that other things always
    work, I havn't found that to be true.  3 year olds can be quite un
    reasonable and not react to other methods sometimes.   Jeff

At Stephen's daycare they encourage the kids to "use their words" if
they are angry.  ie.  "Adam it hurts Allison if you hit her because
you are angry, you need to use your words and tell Allison why you are
mad"  (It works like a charm at daycare but not so well at home!)

If the child still hits they make him sit by himself for a while on 
the mat and say "Adam since you can't stop hitting I think you need
to have some time by yourself on the mat untill you are ready to play
nicely with your friends."

At home I make Stephen sit on the stairs for a timeout if he hits.  My
problem is keeping him on the stairs for his timeout.  He always crawls
away!  I open for any suggestions.  

Ian is now 29 months, and has exhibited several kinds of aggressive
behaviour since he was 14 or 15 months old.  At times his actions 
bewildered us to the point where we did seek professional help.  
He has hit, pinched and bitten both of us and the kids at his
day care many times.  

The advice we received was very similar to that outlined in .0.
On one occasion time outs were recommended, on another it was suggested
that excessive use of them could lead to an angry and frustrated child
learning to "run" from the problem.  Certainly force was not recommended
in return.

In addition, we have tried the following suggestions and found them to
work to a degree:

	The child should have a special object to hit, pinch or bite.
        this can be a cushion, a pillow, or a suitable toy.

        Tell the child very simply and firmly, "No, hitting hurts".  
        Give the child the special object - they can continue to hit
        that if they feel like it.

        Teach the child many "feeling" words, cross, hurt, angry,
        sad, happy, love ... (also hungry and tired) in order to 
        better express their feelings.
        It becomes increasingly easy to sort out the real problem if
        such words are understood and you can start talking about that
        in order to stop the physical behaviour.  Ian will often start
        pinching or hitting if he is hungry, but to ignore the cause of
        his aggression of the moment is to begin a cycle which ends with
        everyone beside themselves.  (Hitting me is not an acceptable way
        to get my attention either ...)

        Play with playdough a lot - some children pinch, and somehow 
        if they can do so in play they are less inclined to do so in
        anger.
         
Finally, it was stressed that the child's ability to stop himself can be
practically non-existent until after the age of 3, i.e., the child may
not be able to stop and think before lashing out in whatever behaviour.


                                       

    I have a 2.5-year-old son. I don't ever hit him and don't intend to.
    Here's what I do when he hits me or someone else. First time: I hold
    him so we are face-to-face and say "I don't like to be hit, no one
    likes to be hit" etc (as appropriate). Second time: "I don't like to
    be hit, if you do it again you will have to go sit by yourself." 
    Third time: "Come on, it's time to go sit by yourself." Then he does
    a couple of minutes of time-out. 
    
    If he is being really aggressive or causing pain I don't wait til the 
    third "offense" for time-out. If he keeps getting in a loop where he 
    gets over-excited and starts hitting, I take him out of the loop.
    
    Lucy
    

    I hate to admit this, but my 2.5-year-old daughter once smacked me so
    hard in the face that before I could stop myself, I yanked her pants
    down and her diaper up and gave her a good smack on the behind. Yes,
    she cried for about two minutes, but she didn't hit anyone again that
    day. Furthermore, I've noticed that she's hitting people much less now
    than she was before I smacked her (and it has been several weeks since
    that incident). Maybe this could all be a fluke, but who knows?
    
    I realize that I'm in the minority in this conference, but I don't
    think there's anything wrong with spanking IF it is used as a last
    resort. As someone pointed out a few notes back, he/she was spanked as
    a child, and he/she doesn't go around abusing his/her kids or other
    people.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Nancy-

    Reply to .6 -
    
    You mention that you see spanking as o.k. if it is used as a last
    resort, yet in the story about your daughter, you spanked her 
    "before you could stop yourself" - presumably this was your *first*
    response, not your last. I understand how this can happen. I have
    been in situations with my son where I felt the urge to hit him
    back, because I felt so angry at what he had done. I also remember
    being smacked a couple of times as a child myself, in exactly that
    situation, where I had pushed one of my mother's hot buttons but
    good.
    
    My own feeling is that I want to control my urge to hit him back.
    I truly believe that hitting him back teaches him nothing good,
    nothing I believe in. I want to channel the angry response I feel
    into some kind of constructive words. If necessary I'll walk out 
    of the room to get hold of myself, then try to say what I need to
    say. This is what I want him to learn to do, too, someday.
    
    Lucy
     

re: .6

Children that age are very self-centered, and it's entirely possible that 
until that incident, she didn't associate her hitting with pain in the 
"hittee".  Many kids discover this when they hit someone else and the other 
person hits them back.  Whether it should be encouraged or not, for a hitter 
to get hit back (and for it to hurt) isn't the worst thing that can happen, 
and the hitter may learn from it.  One of the points that the base noter was 
trying to make was "hitting hurts".  

Clay

    I checked the keywords, and can't find exactly the spot for this. 
    Mods, please move if you know of a better place.
    My son David, 21 months old, stays with my friend during the mornings.
    His Dad picks him up around noon and I take over after work at around
    6:00.  My friend has two little boys, 4 and 2.  David absolutely loves
    Ellen (he calls her "Mommy", calls me "Mama"), and the two boys are his
    best buddies.  Recently I've been having a problem when dropping him
    off in the mornings.  He is always very excited to get there, chats on
    and on about Justin, Nick, Mommy and JD (the dog), and sings, etc. Runs
    to the door to pat the dog and say hello to everyone.  Then he charges
    at whichever child happens to be in the room and pinches or bites him!
    I realize he's excited to see his friends, and doesn't particularly
    want me to leave (he complains for about 10 second every morning after
    I leave).  Ellen and I have tried everything to prevent this reaction.
    Things we've tried : keep the other kids upstairs until I leave,
    distraction (here David, how about some Cheerios??), and scolding him
    and paying attention to whoever he has attacked.  None of these things
    has worked!  It really causes an uproar in the morning.  I've also
    tried spending 20 minutes with him at Ellen's house, and also tried
    just dropping him off, giving him a kiss and leaving.  The time element
    didn't seem to matter.  Anybody else go through this?  It has been
    happening for about 2 months now.  Poor Justin and Nick are getting to
    the point that at soon as they see David, they run away yelling "No no
    David!".  Oh, I forgot to add, as soon as DAvid gets this "ambush" out
    of his system, he's fine for the morning.  No fights, just as agreeable
    as always. He just seems to need that 30 second fight first thing...
    Sarah
    

    James took a swing at me last night with his favorite toy,
    "Water Puppy."  (Please don't ask me to explain the origins 
    of that name...)  Anyway, I don't belive in taking away a
    child's "best friend," but I thought that if it happens again,
    I would be justified in "impounding" Water Puppy for 10 or
    15 minutes.  Are there any thoughts out there on this.  Thanx.
    
    Kate_who_was_REAL_glad_to_see_bedtime_arrive_last_night
    

   Our oldest daughter (2.5 yrs) has, on occasion, started swinging
   her blanket around in a circle - sometimes taking out her sister (1
   yr) if they're too close.  I agree, it would be a bad idea to take
   away her blanket, but after that we have used time-outs (including
   blanket, of course).  We sit her down in a chair across the room
   from her sister for a short time, then we get the 2 of them
   together for a hug and "I'm sorry".  So far it seems to work for
   us.
   
   - Tom

    re:.10
    
    Nick (25 mos) will occasionally whack one of us with his Puff-a-lump.
    He (they) get a warning after the first hit that the next attack will
    result in a time-out for both of them. If he (they) do it again, we put
    Nick into timeout on one side of the room, and puff gets a timeout on
    the other side of the room. When time-out's over, we'll usually get
    hugs from both of them, as well as a "I sorry!" and "Puff sorry!".
    
    Gets tough to keep a straight face...:^)