Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Many states have laws about when you can take the child out of a
    car seat and put them into seat belts.  I'd call my local police
    department to find out.
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie, my concern with going by the law is that it may not be
    "protective" enough. For the safest possible situation, your
    child should be in some type of car seat until he/she can use a regular
    seat belt WITH the shoulder harness fitting correctly across their
    chest/shoulder. 
    
     Parents should realize that a lap belt alone on ANY child can do more
    harm than good. Studies/accident history shows that the force of the
    collision when a child is being restrained only by the lap belt can cause 
    profound damage to the unprotected pelvic area, including internal
    organ damage, broken bones and many documented cases of paralysis due
    to broken spines. This is why a child must have either the pelvic area
    bufferred (as with a booster seat) or have additional restraint of the
    upper body as with full car seat harnesses or a properly fitting
    shoulder harness of a seat belt. Many booster seats actually "boost"
    the height of the child in the seat so the regular seat belt shoulder
    harness can fit and protect properly (not cutting into their necks).
    
    My 4 yr. old just started a new preschool and my husband and I are
    stunned at how none of the parents have booster seats in their cars AND    
    half of them let their children sit in the front seat! To me this is
    passive child abuse!!
    
     Sandy

    re .3
    
    Many cars don't have shoulder harnesses.  My kids are too big for
    booster seats. So it's a moot point.
    
    The going rule is 4 years/40 pounds, I think, for car seats.
    
    

    I think (parents, correct me if this is wrong) that Massachusatte law
    says kids up to age 6 need to be in a child's seat meeting current
    Federal Safety Requirements (booster, infant seat, etc). Children 6 to
    12 need to be restrained by a seat belt. I don't know if local law can
    be stricter then the MA law or if you can be pulled over for not
    having your child in the proper restraint. How many of us remember the
    nursing staff putting our newborns properly into the carseat before
    actually releasing the child from hospital "custody"?!?!
    
    Re .2 It would be interesting to note if the kids not wearing seat belt
    are of parents not wearing seat belts. My son (2.5) does know how to
    get out of both of his seats, one with a "bar" across his lap area and
    one just a full seat-shaped booster using the regular seat belt and
    shoulder strap. But he also knows everyone riding in our cars must wear
    a seat belt. On the occasions when he has unbuckled the belt, we have
    pulled the car over immediately and rebuckled (even 5 feet from our
    driveway) to stress the importance of keeping the belt on until the car
    stops. I've seen alot of kids undo their seat belt when they are close
    to a known destination (like daycare). Unfortunately, it is the parents
    who allow them to, probably figuring they will be slowing down to drive
    in the daycare parking lot anyways. We don't allow our son to buckle or
    unbuckle the beat.
    
    It would be intersting to know if the law did take into consideration
    minimum anticipated height and weight when forming the laws. Anyone
    know??                                                   
    
    Andrea 

Generally speaking, most car seats are designed for weights up to 40-44lbs
(20kg) and most are similar in height.

A child can outgrow a carseat either by height or weight.  When a child is
greater than the weight limit ... or when the back of the cranium is higher
than the back of the seat (typically when the bump forming the bottom back of
the cranium is within 1" of the supporting back of the seat).
		  _____
eg          _    (
	   | \  ( Head ... sort of (!)
	   |  |(  No higher than here
	   |  | ( 
	   |  |  |

Poor picture but you'll probably get the idea.

Some areas require a child to go from the car seat into a booster seat
and others don't.

Since there is a small variation in the height and weight specs for approved
seats by various makers, I cannot imagine any law enforcement agency stressing
the letter of the law providing the child is visibly going to be too big for
a typical seat.

Where the child goes on to a booster seat, basically the same rules apply ...
weight for the seat or height ... and in this case the height limit is to the
top of the car's seat back in the same way.

Stuart

    re: .2
    
    The shoulder harness in my car doesn't even fit ME correctly.  Are
    you saying I'm liable to be seriously injured by the belt if I'm
    in an accident?
    
    Also, though I think you were exaggerating for rhetorical effect,
    I did want to point out that a lap belt is not "more harm than
    good."  I'm living testimony to that.  When I was about 5 and my
    brother was 3, my family was in a serious traffic accident.  We
    were all wearing lap belts, and we walked away with only a couple
    of minor scrapes (mostly on my mother, who was where the
    windshield shattered).  This was in 1959, before shoulder
    harnesses.  The state trooper who helped clean up the mess said
    that the week before, he had taken a similar family in a similar
    accident to the morgue instead of to a motel.  It was definitely a
    sobering experience. 
    
    --bonnie

    While I strongly believe in booster seats, I agree with bonnie on .2's
    seeming message.  Better a chance of pelvic injury in a seat belt than
    a greater chance of a broken neck or smashed skull without one.
    
    However, much better still is a booster seat, which is .2's main point.
    But I don't understand .3; what is the relevance of shoulder harnesses,
    since booster seats take only lap belts?  Kids too big?  My 8 year old
    can still fit one, though he was "liberated" at 6.5.
    
    		- Bruce

    RE.6 I think it all depends on the point of impact.  I think as a child
    you were very lucky, but I have heard and read articles regarding the
    dangers of lap belts.
    
    I also wanted to mention my booster seat by GRACO (bought many years
    ago) is recommended for 35 to 60 pounds.  Once about a year ago when my
    daughter was about 25 pounds I had to stop quickly because a car pulled
    out in front of me.  I was only doing about 25 mph but my daughter slid
    right out and landed on the floor.  Thank god she was in the back seat
    and not the front.  I don't what would have happened to her.  She was
    not hurt, just really shook up.  I guess she just wasn't heavy enough
    for the seat.
    
    Carole

    Bonnie, you're right when you say I was trying to make a point about
    the lap belt doing more harm than good. There is no doubt that your
    child is MUCH safer in a car seat than in a lap belt alone, and safer
    in a lap belt than totally unrestrained in a car, especially for side
    collisions.  Was your family hit from the side? They say it's usually 
    head on collisions that cause the most trauma with a lap belt.
    
    During the Nixon administration, the big three US car manufacturers had 
    definitive proof that the lap belt alone was not safe enough and that a
    shoulder harness was required for car safety. There is an interesting
    transcript of a meeting between Lee Iaccoca (then head of Ford) and
    Nixon having a conversation in which Lee is persuading Nixon not to
    mandate the installation of shoulder restraints in domestic cars. He
    actually tells Nixon that there's no proof that they work better than
    lap belts alone, and that consumers would have to suffer from added
    costs incurred for their manufacture and installation. Yet, a few
    weeks before this meeting Iaccoca was sent a detailed report from Ford
    researchers stating the reverse. 
    
    What? 15-20 years later, cars are finally routinely being manufactured with
    shoulder harnesses.

    re: .9
    
    I thought that's what you meant. I agree that shoulder belts are
    much safer, I just wanted to make sure nobody got the idea that a
    child was safer bouncing around loose in the passenger compartment
    than restrained by a lap belt.  
    
    But I'm still concerned about what you said about the proper fit
    of a shoulder belt.  How do you tell?  And is there a way to make
    it fit properly?  Most shoulder belts aren't adjustable, and as I
    said, the one in our car doesn't fit even me properly, though it
    does fit Neil.  
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie, a non-expert opinion on the shoulder harness--It is supposed to 
    come over the center of the shoulder and down between your breasts to
    your hip bone. It should NOT cut across your neck as this can possibly
    strangle you in an accident. 
    
    Sandy 

    Yes, it comes across my neck -- but what do I do about it? 
    
    --bonnie

    All shoulder straps run across my neck, since I am a short person.
    I often tuck it under my left arm when driving because it
    irritates me.
    
    I assume that neither leaving it where it is or tucking it is an
    optimum solution.
    
    Bonnie

	Re: -1   Tell me about it!  
	
	Maybe *I* should use a booster seat.  :-)

Gack!
Tracey 
(Who is 5'1" and sick to death of being strangled by the shoulder belt!)

    I'm not even particularly short -- I'm 5'4"!
    
    --bonnie

I've seen in-depth discussions on which car seat is best in PARENTING_V2.
(I bought my Fisher-Price based on the majority of the replies.)  What
about booster seats?  Are they all pretty much the same?  Or are there
different features that could make one model preferrable over another?
I want to get one and see they cost from $19 to $49.  What's the difference?

� �ori

Check with your car dealer to see if the shoulder belt anchor can
be repositioned.  Some newer cars are coming out with that capability built
in.

			Steve

	The problem is my husbadn is NOT 5'1".  He's 6'.  We have enough 
problems moving the seat back and forth much less moving the seat belt 
anchor everytime.... 

Tracey

    I'm 5'2" and have the same problem with shoulder belts.  Try moving
    the seat forward and/or using a wedge shaped cushion.  Sometimes just
    sitting up straighter in the seat makes a big difference.

    I tried tilting the seat back forward, so I'm not leaning back so
    far, and that seems to have taken care of it.
    
    --bonnie

    You can also mail-order a lambskin sleeve that wraps around the 
    part of the shoulder strap that rubs your neck. It's held on with 
    Velcro. I use one and it makes all the difference. I ordered it 
    from the Vermont Country Store catalog.
    
    Lucy
    

    Just a little input from my point of view and also a question.  
    
    Yesterday I went to Toys R Us to explore Toddler Seats.  AJ is starting
    to ride with dad in his pickup frequently and is a pain in the *** to
    change the carseat over twice a day, or if one of us drops him off and
    the other picks him up from daycare.  I discovered prices ranging from
    $21. to $89. for what appeared to be basically the same thing.  I'd like 
    to get some real-life input on toddler seats from the point of view of 
    convienience of getting the child in, attaching the seatbelt/shoulder belt 
    around the protective piece, as opposed to the one or two kinds that put 
    the seatbelt through the base and have a clip type thing. I'm looking
    for brand names.  I am aware that if you call the Federal Government, Dept 
    of Transportation (800 number) they will send you a packet of info on 
    carseats, but my experience is that is takes several weeks to arrive.  The 
    other thing is a question of comfort, I'm frequently lucky enough that
    he will still fall asleep while riding in the car. Does this toddler
    seat, which has no back or sides, lend itself to comfortable sleeping?
    
    Just FYI, in one of the previous notes someone mentioned something
    about the MA state law.  Here goes:  (without chapter and verse) 
    Children under the age of 5 will be restrained in an approved child
    restraint seat, including the use of seatbelts.  Children age 5
    but up to the age of 12 must be restrained in a seatbelt.
    
    The ONLY exception to this law is if 1) the car is not equipped with
    seatbelts, or 2) the child is physically unable to ride in a seatbelt.
    I also understand the CT has a similar law that includes Adults as
    well.
    
    BTW, from my EMT experience shoulder belts are the best to help prevent
    injury in any person, however if lap belts are available USE THEM, it's
    easier to mend a pelvis than a next of kin's broken heart!
    
    I too have had the same problem with lap and shoulder belts, (I'm only
    5'2) what I've discover the trick to be is to keep the lap part of the
    belt low, almost over the pubic bone, and the shoulder belt will stay
    where you put it by itself.  It just gets frustrating when what you're
    wearing is slippery, like some silks and synthetics!
    
    And one more quick one, someone mentioned the furry cover for the
    shoulder belts, could someone tell me which catalog or store I can get
    one?  I have a friend who had a pacemaker inserted and complains the
    shoulder belt his her right on top of the incision, and is
    uncomfortable.  Sounds like aagreat give idea to me! 

The information on the MA child seat law displayed at Melissa's pedi lists
another exception.  If all of the seatbelted locations are occupied.  8^{(
To me this looked like it would allow you to overload the car and then put
small children in the back (if a it's a stationwagon) or on the laps of
adults.

Dick

    I have a question and a comment concerning automobile child restraints.
    
    Does anyone know of an "add-on" shoulder harness for children who have
    outgrown booster seats?  Children who can no longer use booster seats
    are not necessarily large enough for a regular shoulder harness.  Also,
    children frequently ride in the back seat.  Shoulder harnesses in the
    back seat were not a standard item until around 1989 (at the earliest),
    which means that for quite a few years there are going to be lap belts
    alone in most cars on the road.  That's my question...
    
    My comment is about parents who allow their children to ride in the back 
    seat of the car WITHOUT the use of a any restraint, yet those same 
    parents are sitting up front WEARING their shoulder harnesses.  I've seen 
    this many times (including this morning on the way to work).  I find it 
    incredible that a parent would protect himself/herself, but not do so for 
    a child (who obviously is not aware of the danger).  I just had to get 
    that off my chest.
    
    Marshall

Re: .24

I'm not aware of add-on harnesses for stock seatbelts, but speed shops
and the ever-popular J.C.Whitney catalog (find a car-nut friend if you
don't have one -- I got over that stage a while ago) offer after-market
racing harness style belts (dual over-the-shoulder style) with or
without crotch belts (keep you from sliding under the belt.)  They're
kind of overkill, but some people might like that.

As far as unrestrained kids in the back -- I don't offer any defense of
the practice, but I've been told by those who do it that they're
concerned about the reports of greater damage being done than prevented
by the belts.  These aren't your standard crackpot reports of someone
who would have been killed if not thrown from the car, but the very
respectable reports of hip/spine/organ damage caused by lap-only belts
which caused the push for shoulder harnesses in the rear. (I haven't
looked at new cars, so I didn't know they had them.)

                                        >>>==>PStJTT

    Re: .25
    
    Thanks for the quick response.
    
    I hadn't thought of the J.C. Whitney catalog.  I wonder if those belts
    meet specific standards and whether they would fit children whose sizes
    are in between the booster seat and full-sized belt/harness.
    
    As for the issue of non-belted children in cars, I'm aware of the many
    potential injuries from lap belts alone.  There are comments to that
    effect in earlier replies to this note (I already knew about the problem 
    from sources I had read elsewhere).
    
    I would not advocate that a parent put his/her child in just a lap belt.
    The situations I was referring to in .24 were those where the child was 
    definitely young enough (and small enough) to use a multi-point-belt 
    car-seat or a booster seat.  This is parental negligence.  The laws in
    this state (Illinois) prohibit children from traveling without proper
    restraints, but as in other traffic violations, it requires a police 
    officer see the offense.
    
    Marshall

    I am in posession of an official copy of the MA seatbelt law, would be
    glad to forward it to anyone who would like it.  Send me mail, offline.
    
    I also own a 1988 Pontiac Lemans.  It is equipped with rear shoulder
    belts, except for the one in the rear-center, so I'm not sure of the
    info on pre 1989 cars NOT having shoulder belts.  I did see something on
    TV over the weekend about kids in lapbelt only accidents, yes they did
    seem to harp on spinal injuries from lap belts, but let's keep in mind that
    unbelted kids make great projectiles!!
    
    In MA, my personal experience, you CAN and WILL be written up for
    overloading a vehicle, which included kids on your lap.  I handled an
    accident last year where a child was in the lap of a Fiero, a two
    passenger car, and was involved in a accident-no seatbelts.  The driver
    was cited for no less than 6 offenses, starting with unrestrained
    child, overloading a vehicle etc...etc!  My gut feeling is that the
    child would never have needed us (the ambulance) if he'd at least had a
    seatbelt on or been left at home!  A week later we had a car roll over, 
    three kids in the back seat, one belted in a carseat.  They all walked 
    away!! 
    
    Enough of my horror stories, except PLEASE, Please don't let the kids
    ride in the back section of a wagon or blazer type vehicle.  These are
    almost always fatal accidents.  Kids are thrown through the back window
    on impact, and either the injuries or an oncoming car will cause a
    fatal blow!!  Yes seeing loose or overloaded vehicles does make me see
    RED and ask "where's the cops when you need them???
    
    
    Lyn

>    I also own a 1988 Pontiac Lemans.  It is equipped with rear shoulder
>    belts, except for the one in the rear-center, so I'm not sure of the
>    info on pre 1989 cars NOT having shoulder belts. 
    
    Rear-seat shoulder betls weren't REQUIRED on all cars before 1989. 
    Many cars, especially larger and more expensive ones, did have
    them as standard equipment, but most of the smaller cars that
    young families buy didn't have them.
    
    --bonnie

My '86 Mazda 323 had rear shoulder belts.

Bob

    Does anyone know the exact law about car/booster seats? What
    are the age/height/weight requirements? My son (3) has a couple
    friends whose mothers just buckle them in with regular seatbelts
    --- which is naturally what he wants now. But I know other mothers
    with much older kids who still use special seats. My son is kind
    of small for his age, so that may explain a few things. What are
    the official guidelines for this -- anybody know?
    
    Christa
    

The guideline in Massachusetts that I follow is that the 
child must weigh 40 lbs. or be 4 years old before you move 
her from a car seat/booster to the seat belt (other noters: 
please correct me if I'm wrong).

My daughter is almost 3 and weighs 33 lbs. and is still in a 
car seat.  I understand the pressure you're under -- some of 
her playmates have been in seat belts for 6 months, but I'm 
not budging on this one.  I read in a Parenting magazine 
that you must follow these guidelines because putting an 
underweight child in a seat belt is very hazardous.

Lesley

    I'm not sure what the law is in NH (but the pedi floor of any hospital
    will be able to tell you), but we kept Christopher in a booster seat
    till he was just over 5.  Even now sometimes will use the booster cuz
    he can see better with it - and he's DEFINITELY buckled in much more
    securely.  If you need to drive the point home about why the carseat's
    so important, take her to a deserted street or parking lot, and hit the
    brakes quick enough to make her go forward (just a bit).  My kids have
    always been buckled in, and I know a few times when we've stopped fast,
    they've been petrified and VERY happy they were buckled in.  She'll see
    that without a seatbelt, she won't have anything to keep her in the
    seat.  I opt for the 5-point harness as long as they can fit in it.
    Jason's almost 3 and will have another year before he's switched to the
    booster seat.  And he's happier in the 5-point than the booster.  Plus
    in a regular seatbelt, your kid has to sit pretty still for it to be
    effective.  If they're slightly turned or kneeling (which they like to
    do so they can see), it'll hurt them more than help if you have to stop
    fast.
    

If your kid is 38 lbs but over 4' tall, s/he can sit in a seat. I
have Sam in his car seat and he's approaching 35 lbs. He likes
being able to see out the windows whch he can't if he's in the
seat

part of the issue is the damage if the child is in a car wreck;
the still developing pelvic area could sustain injuries that
could deform the kid. Does that make sense?

calvin

    I have a question that may have already been discussed, but I don't
    have the time to check all the replies, so here goes.  My son is
    5 1/2 months old, weighs about 16 lbs. and is about 26 inches long
    (the doctor says he'll be over 6 feet easily!).  I still have his
    car seat facing rear due to the fact that he cannot sit up on his
    own.  The problem is, his legs are too long and extend way past the
    edge of the car seat, therefore his legs have to be bent a little
    while facing rear.  Would it be safe for me to put him in a front
    facing car seat at this time?
    
    Lori B.

    Re the law in Mass.:  Last year, I checked into this because most many
    of my neighbors were putting their 3-year-olds in just seat belts.  It
    was an issue for us because of car-pooling to preschool.  
    
    [My daughter, now 4, is still in a car seat, but she's only 31 pounds.  If 
    any of her friends ride in our car, they have to sit in a booster seat.
    If she goes in their car, she brings her own seat.]
    
    I had the same impression has a previous noter (that the law was up to
    4 yrs. or 40 lbs.), but was told by both the registry and the local
    police that the only law in Mass. is that children under 12 must be
    "restrained" and that a seatbelt qualifies as restraint.  Didn't make
    sense to me...
      
    

>    I had the same impression has a previous noter (that the law was up to
>    4 yrs. or 40 lbs.), but was told by both the registry and the local
>    police that the only law in Mass. is that children under 12 must be
>    "restrained" and that a seatbelt qualifies as restraint.  Didn't make
>    sense to me...

It does make some sense, in that seatbelt is better than no restraint.  But,
someone in Mass may have actually recognized the real problem ... there
are too many variables for one hard and fast law.

For example, we have an approved car seat that has an upper weight limit of
20 kg (44 lbs) ... my brother has an approved car seat with an upper weight
limit of 38 lbs.

Some seats have a higher back than others ... our kids outgrew their car
seats by virtue of height ... the back of their head was over the top of
the seat long before they reached the weight limit.

Age would be a terrible limit because you have no idea at what age your
child will physically outgrow the seat ... can you imagine having spent
$70 ++ for a seat that your child outgrew it at 3 1/2 and you have to buy
a different, slightly larger model just to satisfy the law for the next six
months when they could safely use a booster seat at this stage.

Stuart

    And there are a lot of people in Massachusetts and NH who can't
    afford $70, or even $40, for a car seat.  
    
    It would literally be a choice between preparing for an emergency
    that might never happen and not eating for a week.
    
    --bonnie

>TLE::RANDALL "Where's the snow?"                      7 lines  14-JAN-1991 14:40
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                 -< economics >-
>
>    And there are a lot of people in Massachusetts and NH who can't
>    afford $70, or even $40, for a car seat.  
>    

With layoffs all over the place, I know a lot of people who'd have difficulty
affording the original car seat ... let alone another.   We had a useful
program here in Ottawa where one could rent seats at basically cost from
the Junior Service League.  It sure helped us for our first child, when
we rented a Love Seat ... Total cost for 6 months was about $10.  There
are places renting them as a business and making a whopping profit, and
then there are others doing it non-profit.

So, especially for the infant seat, it is worth looking around for a rental,
especially for the short period you need them.  For our second we bought
an old style GM Love Seat second hand for $15 ... made a new pad for $5
and it served 2 of ours and one other.  It was cheaper than the newer
style because you actually had to thread the seat belt through because
the belt path holes had a closed rather than open top.

Stuart

ps.  Snow Bonnie ?   We've got PLENTY!  9" on Saturday, 3" today ...
3" last week .... 

    In Nashua, Memorial hospital rents car seats.  3 years ago, they were
    $10.00 per year.

    We got snow too . . . I just forgot to update my personal name. 
    It was heaven to be out cross-country skiing again over the
    weekend!
    
    You're right about the rental programs -- we have several such
    programs here, too, but they all came into existence after the
    present NH law was passed.  I remember they were debating it when
    we first moved here 10 years ago.  As I recall the original law
    was to require infant seats, and the exclusion was made explicitly
    for economic reasons.  
    
    The fine print of the law doesn't require a child to be restrained
    if the car doesn't have seat belts in it.  Taxis are also exempt.
    
    --bonnie

    
    Has anyone heard about the case in Florida--the one where the 3-year
    old girl died as a direct result of not being in a car seat?
    
    Apparently, the little girl was sick (running a temperature) and the
    parents were going to the drug store to get her some medicine.  The
    father drove and the mother had the little girl in her lap in the front
    seat.  Either the father or a truck ran a stop sign or light (don't
    remember the details as to who ran what)--and the little girl went thru 
    the windshield--and died.  The parents were fine, as was the driver of
    the other car.
    
    The State of Florida is now bringing criminal charges (serious--like
    Manslaughter or something similiar) against the parents.
    
    There is enormous outcry in the community.  First of all, the parents
    have only been in the country for a few months--they barely speak
    English--and their total combined income is below the poverty line. 
    Secondly, as most of their supporters point out, the parents are
    suffering enough--this little girl was well cared for and loved.  The
    parents had her body shipped back to their homeland for the funeral (I
    think they come from Guatemala or one of the Central American
    countries)--but the parents themselves could not afford to attend the
    funeral.  They stayed behind in Florida.
    
    I am not condemning or condoning what the parents did--just reporting
    what I recall are the facts in the article I read.  Apparently, many
    people are making this into a race and class issue--the DA in Florida
    admits they are making an example of these people--but that they will
    continue to make examples as long as children are hurt or killed in
    accidents due to not being properly restrained.
    
    Bonnie
    
    

There are two such cases going on in New Hampshire at the moment.

	Steve

    
    I was wondering how long an infant stays in an infant car seat.  I was
    told up until they are 20lbs.  You see my sister is planning on buying
    me an infant car seat, and a toddler one.  So how long should I expect
    the baby be in the infant one?
    
    Thanks!
    
    

    Just to say this again, since I know I've put this somewhere else in
    Notes, The Massachusetts law is VERY CLEAR!  Children under 12 MUST be
    restrained.  Children under 5 must be restrained in a CAR SEAT!  A
    police officer doesn't need any other reason to stop you and hand you a
    $25. ticket for not having your child restrained.  
    
    ALL STATES have manditory seat-belt laws for children, period!
    
    The only exceptions in MA include, if the child is physically unable to
    be restrained in a car seat, if the car isn't equipped with seatbelts
    and one other reason I can't remember offhand.  
    
    IMO, this is probably the best law the State has ever passed!!  
    The state of CT requires ALL persons to wear seatbelts.  I think one of
    the worst moves this our state (MA) ever made was to repeal the
    manditory seat belt law.
    
    Lyn
    (mom, and EMT)
    
    (I can send a copy of the MA state law to anyone who want one.)

        > Just to say this again, since I know I've put this somewhere 
        > else in Notes, The Massachusetts law is VERY CLEAR!  Children 
        > under 12 MUST be restrained.  Children under 5 must be restrained 
        > in a CAR SEAT!
    
    This is what I thought too, but I just got the text of the
    Massachusetts law yesterday (thanks Lyn!) and children under 5 only
    have to be restrained, not necessarily in a car seat.  Here's the
    text --
    
    Children as passengers in motor vehicles.
    	No child five years old or less shall ride as a passenger in a
    motor vehicle on any way unless said child is wearing a safety belt
    which is properly adjusted and fastened or unless such child is
    properly fastened and secured by a child passenger restraint as defined
    in section one.  (I assume section one describes car seats.  tjh)
    	No child who is older than five years of age but not older than
    twelve years of age shall ride as a passenger in a motor vehicle on any
    way unless said child is wearing a safety belt which is properly
    adjusted and fastened.
    
    This really surprised me.  I really thought that kids under 5 had to be
    in a car seat or booster seat, not just in a regular seat belt. 
    The way this is written says to me that a 2 year old can just be in a
    seat belt and that a 6 year old *can't* use a booster seat.  Pretty
    weird, huh?
    
                                                   Tracy
    

    Seems to me that the law as quoted in .46 doesn't proscribe booster
    seats for the age 6-12 category, unless the booster seat doesn't use a
    seat belt in a "proper" fashion.  Booster seat pretty much = use of
    seat belt, n'est-ce pas?
    
    Another nit: it's ages *5 and under*, not *under 5.*
    
    Leslie

    The "Children must be restrained ages 12 and under" is *DEFINITELY* a
    law in NH, and the fine is pretty stiff if you get caught.  Also, you
    get a ticket for each child.  I want to say it was something like
    $200.00 per kid .... but since we never go ANYWHERE without them
    buckled up, I didn't pay too much attention
    
    

    Just a quick addition to this, EVERY STATE in the country has some kind
    of seatbelt law which requires children up to some stated age to be
    restrained!
    
    AJ is over 4 and still is buckled into a car seat.  He even reminds us
    to do the same even before the keys ever hit the ignition!
    
    Lyn
    

    I was thinking of buying a booster seat to keep in my husband's car so
    that we didn't have to switch the car seat everytime he picked up
    Cassidy at daycare and wanted to get some opinions from those parents
    who have them.  Cassidy is 22 mos. old, 34" tall, and 28 lbs., is this
    too small for a booster seat?  (the one we had looked at had a weight
    limit starting at 25lbs.)  There seems to be so little to the booster
    seats compared with a car seat that we wondered if they were safe
    enough.
    
    Thanks
    
    Ginny

>    who have them.  Cassidy is 22 mos. old, 34" tall, and 28 lbs., is this
>    too small for a booster seat?  (the one we had looked at had a weight

By weight, there is no way Cassidy should be in a booster seat.

By height, and only you can answer this, has the base of Cassidy's skull
at the back (the bottom of the bump on the back of the skull) come within
an inch or so of the top of the back of the children's car seat.  If not,
then again, there is no way Cassidy should be in a booster seat.

The weight requirement is often used as a legal limit, although from the
safety perspective, the height must be taken into account too.  A child too
tall for a car seat could get considerable whiplash damage in an accident.
On the other hand, as you've noticed a child too small for a booster seat
could be tossed about a lot.

While the legal limit is based on weight, I'd certainly argue the case of a
too tall child in a booster seat, but on the other hand, if a child was
obviously too small for a booser seat, I'd be on the side of the law!

So, with the weight and height info, you should be able to determine if
your child is big enough for a booster seat.  We ended up with two car
seats for this reason.

Stuart

    Our booster seat says 30 lbs and I forget the inches - probably
    33.  Eric is about 30 lbs and 35".  We just started using the
    booster seat in one of the vehicles.  We don't feel it seems all
    that safe, even if he was 40 lbs.  They just don't seem anywhere
    as protective as a car seat.  I've asked several other people and
    they felt the same way when they started using a booster seat.
    
    Stuart, what have you heard is the correct weight to start using
    a booster seat?
    
    Donna
    
    
    

    There is no defined STARTING weight that I know of ... but there
    definitely is a STOPPING weight for car seats.
    
    As has been discussed somewhere in here and probably PARENTING_V2,
    there is a lot of confusion regarding sizing for child restraints
    because of manufacturers recommendations, state/country laws and
    the reality of kids sizes.
    
    The LAWS usually state that a child must be in an approved child
    restraint to AGE x yrs, or to WEIGHT y LBS.  Some states/countries
    are more strict stating the kind of restraint that must be used,
    but most are specific in as much as the child must "fit" the restraint
    used (ie obey the manufacturers size recommendations).
    
    Now manufacturers recommendations for size are based on some
    measurements somebody pulled out of a hat somewhere I swear, because
    the upper weight limit for child restraints are typically ...
    
    	20 lbs for Infant seat
        40 lbs for Toddler seat
        60 lbs for Booster seat
    
    Now, if you get a chance to talk openly with a transport safety
    person regarding these limits, they will also tell you that the
    base of the child's skull at the back should NOT be higher than
    the seat back, if in / on a seat ... On a booster seat, this means 
    that the child's head should not be above the car seat-back.  I've 
    also seen this published in a government type safety guide a few 
    years ago somewhere.
    
    Also they will tell you that the child should "fit" the seat ...
    i.e. the child shouldn't be too ridiculously big or small for the
    seat, and in the case of a rear facing seat the child's legs shouldn't
    be cramped towards the car's seat back ... it should then be forward
    facing.
    
    So, add all this together and you discover that the typical 40 lb
    child is usually ridiculously too tall and big for a child-seat.
    So you have to move them on to another seat usually before that
    40 lb limit.
    
    Now, manufacturers have set minimum weights for things like booster
    seats to ensure that children are not moved on TOO early (and
    therefore exposing the seat maker to law suits).  Again these
    limits are set based on the principle that the child must be too
    big or tall for a child-seat.
    
    So, I tend to ignore the minimum limits and have only referenced
    the maximums as having much meaning.
    
    I do agree that booster seats seem very unprotective.  I like the
    idea they use in Britain of an auxilliary 4 point safety harness that
    attaches to the car frame.  It looks a little safer.  For that reason
    I have not normally moved a child into a booster seat until it
    was really necessary.  I would look for a cheap, recent second-hand
    car seat if there was more than 1.5 " from the skull base to
    the top of the back of the child seat, rather than a booster seat.
    You can usually get back what you paid for a second hand seat if
    it's been looked after.  
    
    Stuart
    

    I tend to second almost all of what Stuart said (-.1). 
    In our case we kept AJ in his infant seat, which was positively *huge*,
    until he was a little over 4; 40 inches, 40 pounds.  He still had the
    room IN it, the problem was getting the front shield over his head, he
    was just plain getting too tall in the seat.  Plus there was this 
    "social stygma" thing, he informed me one day as I picked him up at
    daycare that "he was too big for a baby seat", so  I just took it out
    one day.  No I personally don't feel comfortable with him not in any
    kind of seat, but he'll be 5 early January, and legally he won't need
    any seat restraint after that.
    
    What I have found to solve the problem of head restraint, in the Sears
    Christmas catelog (yes 'tis the season!") in one of the first few pages
    is a thing that attaches to the seat back and allows the child to sleep
    in the moving car, yet keeps him upright.  He always seems to fall
    asleep on the ride home, and end up flopping over. The catelog came
    Saturday, I ordered one this morning!
    
    On a related note, they also had a thing that replaces the backup light
    in most any vehicle.  When you put the car in reverse it makes a
    beeping sound, to warn anyone behind the car, especially kids!
    This will be ordered later this week.
    
    Lyn

    We saw one of those head rest things advertised from sears not too
    long ago too ... Looked good, but like all these things I wasn't
    too willing to offer up my own $$$ to test it out myself (cheap eh!?)
    So, DO let us know how it works out!!!
    
    As for the reversing beeper ... I hope it doesn't REPLACE the lights
    but just supplements the lights, because on my two cars, the lights
    are useful in helping me see behind at night when reversing.
    
    As an aside, we moved our youngest (she's 3) into a booster seat
    when we went on holiday because the car seat was physically too
    wide on the back seat to give the other two kids a comfortable ride
    when they were in the car for 3 hours.  The booster seat is much
    like the car seat in as much as it has a large chest protector like
    the "wings" of her car-seat.  She was tall enough in the car seat
    (about 1.5" below the top of the back) that the  transition to
    booster was ok.  (Our laws here in Ontario Canada just state that
    children up to 40 lbs must be in ab approved child safety restraint
    -- be it a car seat or booster seat)
    
    Anyway, after about 1000 of our 3000 miles, she refused to get in the
    booster seat complaining that she was cramped in it ... it actually
    has more clearance for her than the car seat!  Now, for short trips
    she bundles in no problem! Kids!!!
    
    
    One thing I forgot in my earlier note is that although most child-
    seats say max 40 lbs, this is misleading because of varying sizes 
    ...some you couldn't get a 40 lb kid into no-how no-way even if 
    not too tall and you had a giant she-horn ... others you might have
    no problem.  Some seats, by their design aren't suitable for plump
    children ... especially with cold weather gear on.  Some seats aren't
    as tall as they seem becasue of the slope of teh back near the top
    (if a child's head can tip to see the car roof while sitting back
    and upright, this is too tall too!)
    
    So, the individual seat designs matter too ...
    
    Stuart

    .55 reminded me that I had forgotten to mention that the back up beeper
    only replace ONE back up lightbulb.  It is, in fact a metal base, the
    beeper part with a lightbulb mounted in the ordinary way.  So all
    you're basically doing is replacing your existing backup lighbulb with
    a new one.
    
    I have heard these a couple times in the parking lights, and think
    they're just a wonderful idea.  Think about how many times you're
    walking in the parking lot of a mall, and you don't notice the backup
    lights and ALMOST get backed into.  I like the idea, last month AJ and
    I went to a beach, and all these people just kept walking so close to
    my bumper I was literally paralized with fear.  I must have sat in one
    spot a good 10 minutes afraid I'd back into someone trying to cross the
    street behind me.  At least if I'd had the beeper they might have
    realized I was trying to move my car and hopefully get out of the way.
    
    I expect the headrest in a few days, will let everyone know how it
    works out.  If it works out well in my car, we'll be buying a second
    one for hubby's pickup truck.  By the way I believe both items were
    about $20. each, not too expensive for peace of mind.
    
    Lyn

>    
>    I expect the headrest in a few days, will let everyone know how it
>    works out.  If it works out well in my car, we'll be buying a second
>    one for hubby's pickup truck.  By the way I believe both items were
>    about $20. each, not too expensive for peace of mind.
>    
There is supposed to be an adult version too for those adults who like to
have a car nap (excluding the driver of course!!!!!).

    How come the driver CAN'T nap???   :-) !!
    
    So where is the adult version sold?  I'm the one who usually zonks out
    first on a long drive!
    
    Lyn
    

>    How come the driver CAN'T nap???   :-) !!
>    
Too many do without a pillow to help!

>    So where is the adult version sold?  I'm the one who usually zonks out
>    first on a long drive!
>    
Well, the little ones are from Sears Catalogue little inserts, and so are
the big ones, so how you go about getting them without getting the inserts
is beyond me I'm afraid ... and then Sears US catalogue stores aren't going
to like any Canadian order # that I could find!

Stuart