Conference moira::parenting_v3

Not an unknown phenomenon!!!!!

It is often used as a way of getting attention ... the ignore it techniques
sometimes work ... but other times it just results in more of the same!


Probably more attention required !

Stuart

    Did you try asking her what the problem is?   One thing that comes
    to mind is that she might well be frightened of something in the
    bathroom, or she might find the seats uncomfortable, or ???
    
    At one point we had to explain to Steven the sanitary aspects of
    why you use a toilet and not the floor or a garbage can.  I think
    he was a little older than 3, though.
    
    --bonnie

    As far as her not getting enough attention, that is a possibility, but
    a remote one, I should think. My wife is home all day with our
    children, and, although, we do have 3, they each get lots of individual
    hugs, book reading, snuggling, etc.  We make an extra effort to pay
    attention to her, as she is a middle child, and the attention level did
    not change at all at the time she began this.
    As to asking her...we have. Repeatedly. It goes like this..."Carrie,
    why won't you use the potty?"..."'Cause"...""Because why?"..."Just
    'cause!"...."are you afraid of something?"..."Yes"..."What?"..."I'm
    afraid the alligators will get me!". So, its in to the bathroom to
    thoroughly examine the potty and show that there are not aliigators (or
    anything else that might hurt her. "Does something hurt
    you?"..."Yes"..."What is it?"...."my arm, where I bumped
    it"..."anything else?"..."yes"..."what?"..."my toe where Joshua stepped
    on it"......and on, and on, and on! No indication that is toileting
    related discomfort. We've tried the..."We want to help you use the
    potty, and if you tell us why you won't, then together we can fix the
    problem." She will reply..."I just don't know."
    Very frustrating for all concerned!
    
    --dave--

AH HA, the ALLIGATORS!  Dave, you might want to get her
a can of "alligator repellent" to take with her into the
bathroom.  It could just be an empty spray deodorant can that you
make a fancy label for.  I've heard that this can be pretty
effective.  It puts her in control, too, so that next time
she goes in there, she has it handy and doesn't have to
rely on you or mom to show here there aren't any.

    The alligators would do it, all right . . . a spray mister, the
    kind you use to water plants, with some water and a fancy label,
    works well, too, and is easy to refill.
    
    --bonnie

    I don't remember if I told this story before.  A friend of ours
    have a boy who was about 3 at the time.  He saw the tidy bowl 
    commercial (with the man in the boat in the toilet) and he stopped
    using the toilet for quite some time.  I wonder if she saw something
    on TV.  It's amazing how those things can screw up so much hard
    work and training in just a one minute commercial.
    
    Donna
    

    yeah, the tidy bowl man would have given me pause!
    The commercial idea is a good one, except.....Our children quite
    literally watch no TV, with the very occasional exception of Mr. Rogers
    or Reading Rainbow, and these have no commercials. And we watch them
    with the kids, so to explain what they see.
    The alligator repellent is worth a try, but you should know that fear
    of alligators is the stock response to almost any question that they
    are unwilling or unable to answer (eg. "Where are your shoes?"..."The
    alligators ate them!" or "What would you like for lunch?" ..."Alligators!"
    She will also willingly go in and use the toilet (well, usually
    willingly) when asked to. 
    So, we're still relatively stumped!
    --dave--

    Well I haven't had any thing like this happen with my kids, but...
    Maybe she just thinks it's neat that she can pee in all kinds of
    different places and containers?  Perhaps it's a simple matter of gee,
    I can pee in my toy box, I can pee in my sandbox etc.
    
    My boys went through a time when they insisted on peeing in the woods. 
    In our yard when they could easily go into the house to use the toilet.
    Actually my daughter wanted to do it too, but found out it was much
    easier for the boys to do it than her, so she gave up on it.  This was
    at about 2 and 3 years of age.
    
    I personally don't go for using spray bottles etc to scare away the
    alligator, monsters, ghosts or whatever the problem may be...  I'm a
    firm believer in reality, and would prefer the "see, there are no
    alligators, monsters, ghosts in the toilet, closet, under the bed".
    For me that is playing up their fantasies and confusing them between
    reality and fantasy.
    
    This may be something you're just going to have to persevere with and
    keep insisting she use the potty, instead of trying to "psyche" it out
    as to her reasoning, and finding an appropriate solution.
    
    

    I suggest that everyone should take it easy.  She's barely three, and
    has only been at it a couple of months.  I think it's common for it to
    take several months or more for this stuff to become routine, and it
    certainly doesn't proceed linearly.  Kids may concentrate real hard at
    first, and then as they get more relaxed (which is good) they have more
    accidents (which is OK, though a bother).  It sounds as if you are
    plenty alert for physical or out-of-the-ordinary psychological
    problems.  If it goes on too much longer (another couple of months? it
    really depends on your state of worry), ask your pediatrician.
    
    		- Bruce

    Thanks, Bruce (and everyone else)!
    Yes, we are going to just ride this one out. Eventually, "this, too,
    shall pass." We were curious if anyone had ever experienced this to
    this great a degree, and what they did. My wife and I know it's
    probably just a passing thing. Our oldest, Josh, has a well-child appt.
    at end of August, and if she's still doing it to same degree, we'll
    mention it to the doc then (and make her an appt., if he feels its
    necessary, lest anyone worry that we'd be trying to sneak two kids in
    for the price of one! :-) ) thanks again for the input!
    
    --dave--

    Afterthought.
    
    Thinking back, I now remember a similiar phenomenon with Aaron that was
    actually due to "regression" on the part of his _parents_.  At first,
    we were hyper-conscious of his no-diaper state, and constantly prodding
    him to think about peeing.  As _we_ relaxed, he got fewer reminders,
    and thus had more accidents.  With Eric, we didn't push the matter at
    all.  He started toilet training considerably later, but "finished" at
    precisely the same age.  The much shorter transition made life far
    easier for everybody.
    
    			- Bruce

    dave,
    
    this is just a quick reply as I have to log off and don't have time
    to read all the replies, so I appologise if I am repeating anything..
    
    first of all look for something new and overwhelmin/threatening
    in her life, this is definitely a type of cry for help on the
    part of a child
    
    second encourage her to talk to you about anything that might be
    bothering her, and even draw her out, suggesting things that
    might be upsetting her
    
    third, make her clean up after her self. if she wets her panties
    make her wash them with soap and water in the sink, if she pees
    on the floor make her wipe it up with paper towels and then
    a sponged and soapy water, or in a container make her empty it
    and wash the container...she is not too young to understand the 
    concept of consequences after actions. I used this approach with
    my 'special needs' son Steven when he started peeing on the floor
    after he passed puberty and could no longer aim right with his
    larger organ. 
    
    don't be mad or upset, simply tell her that she has made a mess
    and she has to clean it �up.
    
    in the absence of serious problems this is quite effective (you can
    help after they make a serious effort to do it themself.)
    
    Bonnie

    Dave,
    
    Your daughter hasn't been trained all that long not to expect some
    regression. Maybe you make comments like "you used to go IN your
    diaper" and now she is trying to "GO IN" anything that she can. 
    She is old enough to know what is proper to go in and what is not but.
    
    Another thing I thought of was maybe since she is "recently" trained,
    you may have taken her behavior to be premanent so all the clapping and
    praise for a job well done stopped when she still needed reinforcement
    to keep using the toilet. She is now getting reinforcement  (attention
    about the toilet) but it is negative. I do agree to leave it alone for
    a while and give simple praise when she goes in the toilet.  I still
    read toilet training books with my son (he actually loves them) despite
    the fact that he has had one accident in 3 months and he is just almost
    2.5 years old. 
    
    Leave it be for a while and maybe restart the training tactics, like on
    the toliet at regular intervals, nice hugs but no pressure or comments
    in-between.
    
    Best of Luck!!
    Andrea

    We went through something very much like this with Maggie although it
    was well over a year after she was completely trained.  All we did was
    state matter-of-factly that since she had decided not to use the potty
    any more that we would give her her diapers back - that panties were
    not for peeing in, it made too much of a mess.  (We had bummed a couple
    of diapers from a friend and put them in the bathroom.)  Then we also
    said that when *she* decided that she was ready to use the potty all of
    the time, she could go back into her panties.
    
    And that was that.
    Norma
    

    Back to this note with another twist.
    
    My daughter has been "day-trained" since the end of July (3 months). 
    She urinated and did her bowel movements in either her potty or the
    toilet.  After a couple of weeks, she was going on her own without
    help.  She would simply announce to me afterwards to come see what she
    did.
    
    She only wears diapers at night.  I did this because she has yet to
    wake up dry.
    
    Our nightly routine consists of a "sip" of water, brushing her teeth,
    sitting on the potty, reading a book, and tucking her in.  
    
    For the past week or so, she has been doing her bowel movements in her
    diaper  immediatley (within minutes) after she goes to bed.  Or she 
    urinates, too. 
    
    She'll come downstairs and announce that she has either "done pee or
    poop" and needs to be changed.   She'll say, "It's O.K. I have a diaper
    on."  Arghhhhhhhh !!!
    
    Talk about a real bedtime stall tactic!!!  :-)
    
    I've considered putting her in training pants for bedtime, but thought
    she wasn't ready since she hasn't been "dry" in the A.M.  I tried
    waking her up at 11:00 to go, but she either falls over from heavy
    sleep or screams that she doesn't have to go.
    
    I know, you are all going to tell me that "this too shall pass". :-)
    
    Thoughts anyone?
    
    -Laurel  
    
    

re .15:
    You have described exactly what my son David does!  He's been day-trained
    for several months now, but I expect to continue using diapers at night
    for a long while, because he sleeps very soundly and is always soaking
    wet in the morning.
    
    He often does "poop" shortly after getting his diaper on.  I think it's
    partly just that he still somewhat prefers a diaper for poops (so perhaps
    he's holding them back a bit if it's the end of the day and he knows he'll
    be getting the diaper on soon).  I always change the diaper if it's
    poopy, because it bothers his skin to have the poop there all night, but
    I try to avoid changing a merely wet diaper right after he's gone to bed.
    Sometimes he's very insistent on having a clean diaper, and I do change
    it if he insists.  He's never asked for more than one change per night,
    so it's not a big deal to me.  We went through the "won't stay in bed
    and drives Mom crazy for 2 hours every evening" routine last spring, and
    this is sooooo minor compared to that!

    As for waking your daughter to go to the bathroom, I'd say let that go
    for a while.  I plan to keep on using night diapers for David until
    either he consistently wakes up dry in the morning, or he refuses to
    wear them any more, or he outgrows the biggest size that the diaper
    service has.  I figure there's a fair chance that we'll use diapers for
    another year or more.  (He's not quite 3 years old now.)  I'd be afraid
    to push on staying dry at night for fear of introducing emotional
    difficulties that will actually delay that, rather than help it along.
    Right now we treat it very matter-of-factly, along the lines of "You need
    to wear a diaper at night because you pee when you're asleep and we don't
    want the bed to get all wet.  When you get bigger, you won't pee while
    you're asleep and you won't need to wear diapers at night any more."  David
    is quite happy with this explanation.

				cheryl

I'm in a similar boat - with one twist.  Brian has *never* made a poop 
in the toilet or potty.  He is now fully urine trained during the day, 
tells us when he has to go (although it may still be shrieking "I HAVE 
TO MAKE A WEE-WEE" as he streaks through the kitchen holding himself.  
You have 8 seconds to respond.)  But he says the poops for his 
night-time diaper.  He is now 3 yrs 4 mos and has been trained for 
about 2 months.  Any clues on how we can get him to try the poop?  So 
far he is adamant about NOT doing them anywhere but the diaper, and
although he has soiled his pants occasionally it upsets him and, come 
to think of it, he hasn't done it recently.  He once told me he 
thought it would hurt to do it on the pot.

Any suggestions for my late bloomer?
Norma

p.s.  He is a stubborn kid who will do things in his own time thank-you-
very-much although he will respond to a well-time gentle push.  He was 
one of those kids who was resisting using the potty, even though we 
could tell he was physically ready, until we "ran out" of diapers one 
morning and then "forgot" to buy them when we went to the market so 
could he use the potty just this once until we could get some more.  
Of course we made such a stink about his success that there was no 
looking back after that.

    re: .17
    
    My son is exactly where yours is! He requests a diaper during the
    day if he has to poop (except at nursery school, in which case he
    saves it til he gets home -- thanks a lot, Daniel...) I guess I
    have just resigned myself to waiting until the opportunity comes
    up for one of those little nudges. That works best for him too.
    So far, any nudges have met with a firm "I want a diaper" 
    (followed 2 minutes later by "I want a change"...)  Oh well...
    
    Lucy 
    

    The wait for a diaper to poop syndrom isn't unusual.  Robby did it, and
    like all things, it passed after maybe a month.  It was early into the
    training, and he would go as soon as he had the diaper on, so it was
    actually quite convienent.  No poopy accidents in the underpants.  
    
    It will pass, like all things.
    
    Sue

    .17
    
    Have you tried the reward method.  Alex at 3 yrs was urinating in the
    toilet but no BM's.  I told him if he pooped in the toilet that I would
    give him a big boy candy (one sugerfree tic tac), he sat on the toilet
    for 45 minutes first time and actually went.  Once he did that, I
    praised him highly and gave him a sticker on his shirt.  Within a week,
    he was totally trained.
    
    At night we put plastic pants over his PJ's, and he sometimes has an
    'accident' but has been doing pretty good lately.
    
    Worth a try.

    .20
    
    When Kelsey was "training", I used the reward system.  She got 1
    Reese's pieces for "pee", 2 for "poop".  She loved it and I carried
    them everywhere!!
    
    Kelsey was "pooping" in the potty for about 2 months -- Completely day
    trained.  She would even get up from her nap and "poop" in the potty
    and yell for me to "wipe".
    
    Gradually, during the past 3 weeks, she starting holding her bowel
    movements and would only go after 3 or so days.  She would complain of
    a 'tummy ache'.  I would tell her she had to go potty and she would
    feel better - usually after reading a story beside her, she would
    "poop" in the potty.
    
    Now, all of a sudden, in the past couple of weeks, she doesn't go in
    the potty.  She waits.  She passes alot of gas beforehand, too.!!
    I can't understand it.
    
    Yes, I know I should just go with the flow.  But, honestly, its one of
    those things that just frustrates me at the end of the day.    
    
    Looks like alot of us are experiencing this together.  
    
    --L

    Well I think this note is for me!
    
    My son Stephen has just started some toilet regression.  The first note
    sounds like him exactly.  What was the result with your daughter Dave?
    
    Stephen is 3yrs and 2mos. and has been potty trained for 6 months.  He
    rarely has an accident.  For the past 2 days he has purposely gone pee
    pees in the car, on a chair, in the living room, etc.  He even laughs
    and smirks about it.  I try to treat it matter-of-factly and have him
    clean up after himself.  I don't get mad.
    
    He does wear a nightime diaper and on Sunday he was very upset about
    taking it off and didn't want to take it off.  I told him diapers were
    only for nightime and we wear underpants during the day.  His answer to
    why he doesn't use the toilet is "just because".  Anyone have any
    insights?
    
    He has a 1 year old sister, so maybe he needs some extra attention?
    He is not afraid of the toilet and actually used it today once.
    
    Karin

    The 3's seem to be an age when kids are going through a lot of
    transitions from babyhood to little-kidhood.  Sometimes I imagine they
    get a little frightened of the possiilities and tend to regress to
    babyhood in some areas where they have been a big kid for a while.
    
    Are there any others baby things that they have started to do again? 
    Have they started to do some new things lately or have you been asking
    them to by saying "You're not a baby any more"?

    Our 4 yr., Carrie, had been having a lot of nightime toileting
    accidnts. She has been toilet trained during the day since just before
    she turned 3, and night trained since shortly after that. Up until
    about 6 mos ago, she rarely ever wet at nite...maybe once or twice a
    month. She'd either be dry in teh morning or get up at night to go to
    the bathroom on her own. Then about 6 mos. ago, she began suddenly
    wetting nearly every nite. she'd get up in the morning and be wet. This
    lasted about 3-4 weeks, then gradually tapered off, and we were back to
    virtually never wetting. Then about 2 mos. ago, she began this again,
    and it continued for aboutr 2 weeks. Now she is doing it again. Only
    difference is, now she wakes up when she wets and comes and gets my
    wife and I up to change her and her bed. We never make a big deal out
    of it (too comatose to!!), just get up, help her change her pj's, and
    change her bed. I'm getting awfully tired of this, and think maybe we
    ought to put her back in diapers for a while,. but my wife doesn't like
    this idea much, saying it'll be too much like punishing her for her
    accidents. I'm looking at it only from a lack of sleep standpoint. What
    do others think?
    
    BTW, she's really too small (stature wise) to do much bed changing on
    her own, and usually too asleep to help then anyway. We cannot link
    these episodes up with any concrete episode(s) in her life, although
    this latest episode did begin about when she was diagnosed with an ear
    infection.
    
    --dave--       

    
    --dave--,
    
    I'm assuming that you are trying to prevent the accidents in advance
    i.e. limiting nightime fluids, having her go before bedtime, perhaps
    even waking her to go when you retire for the evening.
    
    Any chance the regression is linked to adding a new baby to the family?
    
    Sorry I don't have any concrete advice but good luck,
    
    Carol

    4 must be a tough age....Just FWIW, I've recently read that there is a
    direct link between ear infections and UTI's.  Has your doctor done a
    routine urinalysis?  Even if she didn't have an ear infection, my
    opinion is that she should still be tested for UTI, especially if the
    onset is fairly sudden and unexplained. I think I'd back up on the pedi
    and ask if you could have a urine sample checked.
    
    She's 4, is she starting school next month, could it be anxiety from
    either this, or something else.  Kids are great barometers, and
    sometimes the most inocent remark on your part, can be misinterpreted
    by the kids bigtime.  I know this from experience!
    
    Keep us posted...
    Lyn

    Dave,
    
    As mom of a nighttime wetter, I know how exhausting it can be, and the
    burden of the added laundry (especially with a newborn!) can be
    overwhelming.
    
    Some hints with how to deal with the bed anyway, most of which are in
    here in other notes;
    
    o Get those blue bed-protector pads like they use in the hospital. 
    Just toss them right on top of the sheets, they have a water-proof
    backing, and that's a lot easier to change than a bed! (disposable)
    
    o Have her sleep at the other end of the bed till morning - it'll save
    you a lot of effort in the middle of the night.
    
    o I wouldn't switch back to diapers, but we used the terry-cloth lined
    plastic training pants for a while (Sears sells them in HUGE sizes!),
    and that at least helps keep things contained.  We just called them
    nighttime underpants, and he was just fine with them.
    
    o I second the notion of a possible UTI, or stress from the baby.  They
    say that some regression is natural in siblings when a new baby comes
    home - it may just be bothering her more than the others or more than
    you realize?
    
    Have you changed your laundry detergent?  I know this is going to sound
    weird, but we changed ours, and his problem got MUCH worse.  We
    switched back to the previous brand, and he improved immediately.  My
    only guess at that was that it didn't smell like "home" and added more
    'stress' to his life ....
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    Well, I suppose that the most recent episodes could be related to the
    baby, but the pattern began long before Jacob was born. And she
    absolutely delights in the baby, often trying to do all the mothering
    stuff for him before Wendy can get there. 
    
    The UTI is a possbility, I suppose, but wouldn't she have other
    symptoms, such as burning or problems during the daytime? Other than
    the occasional daytime accident (almost exclusively when she's outdside
    playing and just didn't pay attention to her need soon enough), she
    reports no problems.
    
    No, she won't be starting anything this fall. We home school our
    children, so there is not a big change in routine or anything, and we
    haven't started our school year yet, anyhow.
    
    Patty, good points. Maybe we'll try the blue pads...they'd be a darn
    sight easier to change than the whole bed! Even if she missed the blue
    pad a bit, we could probably just cover the "missed spot" with a fresh
    blue pad. 
    
    Several times when I've gone up to tuck her in before we go to bed (I
    love doing that! they look so precious all flung all over the bed as
    they sleep!), especially if it's late, she'll be out cold and soaking
    wet, so she's not always even waking up when she goes.
    
    Add to this that Joshua, at age 6, still wets every single night, but
    we have him in a diaper. Even so, this leaks half the time, and Wendy
    is getting pretty sick and tired of all the loads of sheets, in
    addition to the regular wash from 6 people (including 2 in cloth
    diapers!).
    
    --dave--

    When I said I thought it was connected to the baby, I meant that
    you should look toward things that changed about that time.  It
    doesn't have to mean she's hostile toward or even jealous of the
    new baby -- just that it's a change in her life that increased the
    stress and thus made it harder to contro herself.  Maybe she's
    sleeping more deeply at night because she's tireder from the extra
    person around, for instance.  
    
    Steven loves his little brother, too, but when David got to be
    about a year old Steven seemed to feel he was being pushed too
    hard to be a big boy, and he couldn't be little any more.  His
    bedwetting relapsed for several months.
    
    If she's that soundly asleep, perhaps the device that others have
    mentioned that buzzes to wake the child up would help? 
    
    --bonnie

    Dave, would the Huggies Pull Ups be an option for you?  I know you
    mentioned that you use cloth diapers, but if you're going to fill your
    trash can with the blue pads, I'd think the pull ups would take up less
    bulk, or even buy some rubber backed sheets from a hospital supply
    house.  Some nursing homes don't even use the blue pads, they use these
    nice cotton quilted pads with a heavy rubber back.  I have two of them,
    thanks to my mother inlaw that works in a NH, and I use them under the
    sheets to save me from changing the quilted mattress pad with every
    sheet change (at least once a week I change sheets).
    
    Did you say you've got a second child who still wets?  Could it just be
    something she's inherited?
    
    And as for symptoms, maybe not.  Children may not be able to verbalize
    what we call "burning" on urination.

I think this was mentioned before some place but, to save on the environment,
I use a "half" method of making up the bed with my ten year old who still
wets every night.  I make up the bed normally (with a rubber mattress cover).
Then I put a half rubber sheet over where he lays.  These are coated with
fabric.  I only need to wash or change this, not the whole bed.  When the
sheets lose their capacity to hold water, I spray them with a water proofing
agent.

My experience is this (and I've tried every method known to man or woman over 
the past ten years :-):  At least she has been dry, work on her own self
confidence to let her know that she can be dry again.

Don't make a big deal out of it.

It is encouraging and important that she does sometimes wake up and wants her
bed changed.  Do it because she will feel more comfortable and subconciously
learn to appreciate being dry.  It is the subconcious that needs training.

Try to avoid anything demeaning.  I am not too in favor of plastic pants or
things that will make her feel like a baby.  It might be a bit more work but
I try to treat Mark like a normal ten year old who just has a slight problem
that he and I are working to correct.  It seems important to Mark to know that 
I am working with him, not punishing him.

I make sure that his friends don't find out, at least as far as possible.  When
they are visiting, his blanket is pulled up over the rubber sheet so they 
don't see.  I tell teachers on overnight trips so they know what to expect and
can help him.  Children need their self respect.

I have tried the wet alarm.  It woke up everybody BUT Mark.  When my husband
goes to the U.S. for an extended business trip this autumn, we will try again.

And most of all... Good luck to all of you!

Cheryl

    Another thought -- have you tried asking her waht *she* thinks 
    would help, and what she thinks the problem is?
    
    --bonnie

Markus gets very upset if I ask him questions like that.  I think it is because
he feels that I am implying that there is something that he can conciously do
to change the situation when in fact there isn't.  I'd approach it more like, 
"We may be able to help solve this if we try xxx.  Do you think that could 
help?"  Or perhaps discuss things which might be bothering her without relating 
them to the wetting.

I think you can never be too careful with a child's self confidence in a 
situation like this when it is often something beyond their control.  Approach
it with kid gloves.

ccb

    Cheryl,
    
    When you use the rubber sheet, don't the top sheets or blanket ever get
    wet? We find that we almost always have a wet top sheet and often
    blanket, too. Come to think of it, the blue pads wouldn't prevent that
    top wetting, either, would they? Oh, well. 
    
    I don't think it's a hereditary thing. Joshua has never had a dry
    night, as long as we can remember and he will be 6 this Sunday. He
    sleeps so incredibly deeply that he simply doesn't wake at all. He has
    been known to sleep righ through the smoke alarm going off right
    outside his bedroom door, babies screaming in his room, etc. It is
    his choice to still use a diaper....he doesn't wake up any better
    without one, just colder and clammier in the morning and he hates that
    with a passion. We have worked hard to find something for him that is
    as comfortable as possible, and that he can easily get out of himself
    should he get to the point where he woke up at nite to use the
    bathroom. 
    
    Carrie doesn't have the slightest idea why she is wetting, and she
    isn't happy about it. We never make a big deal out of it, just get up,
    help her out and that's it. No "Oh, no, not again", (even if we might
    think this sometimes), no recriminations. Same for Joshua. The only
    thing we've said with him, is when he has complained about being wet
    and uncomfortable, is that when he is able to wake up and use the
    bathroom, he won't have to feel this way anymore. It isn't said in a
    nasty way, just a "someday this really *will* happen" sort of way.
    
    Carrie has really been resisting her nap lately, and maybe that is the
    root to this. When she doesn't nap, perhaps she is too exhausted to
    wake up at night....when she does nap she is able to make it. Even when
    she does nap, though, she doesn't come downstairs at night, just wakes
    up dry in the morning. I'll have Wendy keep track of this
    theory...maybe it's the key. It isn't the drinking in the evening. She
    has been dry as many evenings where she drank a lot, as she has been
    wet after evenings when she hasn't had anything.
    
    --dave--

    Re: .33
    
    That's true, but I also find it often backfires to be doing
    "stuff" around my kids without talking to them about it, because
    they either get the impression that something's wrong with them --
    Steven's especially prone to the 'Oh, no, it must be something so
    bad she can't even talk about it!" -- or they could have told me
    in the first place what was wrong, if asked the right questions. 
    "Why are you wetting" is not the right question. 
    
    Kat's headaches were how we learned this.  They were obviously
    psychosomatic stress headaches -- always came on in the afternoon
    on Thursday.  We got to where we could predict when the nurse
    would call.  And nothing we tried would help.   Obviously getting
    headaches is not something you can consciously control, either,
    but she felt pretty bad about it. 
    
    Finally asked Kat to tell us about Thursday afternoons.  After a
    good deal of wandering around the subject, we pieced together that 
    her desk was in the back of the room, and on Thursday afternoon
    the class in the next room had a "math bee" which got noisy, and
    she couldn't hear her own teacher, and her teacher would accuse
    her of not paying attention.  So as soon as the math bee started
    up, Kat got a headache anticipating the scolding.  We talked 5
    minutes to the school nurse, nurse relayed the information to the
    teacher, the teacher told Kat she could move to the front of the
    room during the math bee. No more headaches...
    
    --bonnie

Re. .35 I'm not saying you should ask questions, it's just that I am very 
        careful about the phrasing.

Re. .34 

Markus sleeps with a washable duvet and that is all that covers him.  I used
to put it in a duvet cover that that was one more thing to wash.  Very
occassionally, he will wet so much that he soaks through the rubber sheet and
half sheet I have on.  Then we remake the bed.  The half sheets tuck firmly
in on both sides of the bed.  Markus likes to wind himself up in the duvet which
means it sometimes gets slightly wet and sometimes soaked.  When it is only
slightly et, I'll usually dry it and air it in the sun.  When it's soaked or
been wet a couple of times, I wash it.

Using this type of throw cover makes the bed easy to make, even in the middle
of the night.  If you have two, you can always leave one at the bottom of the
bed that he can just pull over himself if he's too cold.  I do away with ALL
unnecessary bedding.  I also wash his feather filled pillow when it needs it.
You have to dry it until it is really dry with a tennis ball or tennis shoe
in the dryer to fluff it.

I bought him a colorful "Masters of the Universe" thick cover last time I was
in the U.S. in the hopes he might subconciously want to keep it dry :-)  It
didn't work but I also find the thing too big and too bulky to easily wash.
I think I will cut it in two and bind the cut edges.  Half size would be just 
right for how he sleeps and then it would be easily washable.

You might also check out my notes on the response I got from Dr. Ferber at the 
Boston Children's Hospital.  I was pleased with the interest he took in Mark's
problem and will hopefully get to speak to him on one of my trips over.  They
seem to have a variety of specialists equipped to deal with this problem.

And most of all good luck and success.

Cheryl

    Just as an addition to my note a few back, have you considered
    contacting a local university teaching hospital?  Under the department
    of psycaitry should be a pediatric specialist who deals with toileting
    difficulties.
    
    We contacted Dr. Martin Young at Umass Medical almost a year ago, and
    he has helped us tremendously.  The first thing that was required of us
    was to be sure that the cause wasn't physical, and even if it was  he
    could still help us in many cases.
    
    For us it was wonderful, Dr. Young is himself a parent of small children
    and understands that child-rearing is a challenge in itself. 
    When we go for apointments, in our case he speaks to us and the child
    need not be there, it's more like chatting with a friend in his
    livingroom.  He has his appointments in his personal office in the
    Medical school side of the facility, not in a clinical setting which
    seems to promote a relaxing atmosphere.
    
    So I'd suggest you contact some local medical teaching institution for
    assistance with this. For us it has been a God send.
    
    Lyn

    Well, it's been 5 nites now since Carrie wet the bed, so this
    particular cycle seems to have been a bit shorter than the rest. It
    apparently has nothing to do with daytime sleep or lack of it. Saturday
    we had a houseful of people (15 adults, 8 children...all of them just 6
    or under), and Carrie was going non-stop all day with no nap, not even
    a rest period. We figured *for sure* she'd wet that nite. Nope. Dry as
    a bone till morning. *And* she'd had buckets to drink that day! So who
    knows what it is, but while it's not a problem, I don't think we'll
    approach it as one by askin gfor outside help, as that would focus her
    on a problem that isn't currently there.
    
    On a related note, Wendy took Joshua for his annual checkup today (6
    yrs. old), and inquired aobut his bed-wetting. He said that it was
    totally normal for a 6 yr. old *particularly* a boy, to still be
    wetting the bed, and not to worry about, make a big deal over it, or
    basically do *anything* for at least 2-4 more years. Then they'll be a
    bit more concerned, but he said bed-wetting in boys often continues
    with no apparent physical or emotional reason, well into the early
    teens. Seems boys grow into that particular muscular control later than
    girls do.  He also said that Carrie's bed-wetting was completely normal
    and that most 4 yr olds have at least occasional accidnets. He seemed
    to think that the cyclical part may be tied to a more physical reasom,
    like a growth spurt, where her body is so busy growing, it maked it
    tough for her to pay attention to "normal" stuff. It's hard to think of
    it as that, because she's so tiny (39 inches, 30 lbs, was 4 on 25
    june), and grows so slowly, but she obviously has growth spurts
    proportional to her build. A growth spurt for her might be 1/2 inch or
    1 lb., whereas Joshua who was 48 inches and 53 3/4 lbs. today has a
    growth spurt and grows 3 inches and gains 5 lbs.!
    
    Who knows? But, unless or until the problem returns, I'll let it rest
    for now, I think.
    
    --dave--

    Dave, and others, I wanted to relate something I heard on the radio the
    other day while running some lunchtime errands.  This program, on AM
    since the FM side of my car radio died a couple weeks ago, was one of
    those call in and ask the doctor types.
    
    Seemed this mother had a child, about early elementary school age who
    was having trouble staying dry at night. The doctor suggested two
    things, first was the possibility of "bladder spasm", which at any time
    day or night, would push some urine out causing what would appear to be
    "an accident".  Second he said there is a "brand New" medication on the
    market, however he seemed intent on not naming it, that aparently shuts
    down the kidney or ureter function for a period of hours, so that urine
    never makes it to the bladder (at night). But after the body begins to
    function so do the kidneys and you eliminate all the stored up urine
    with no ill effects.  He suggested you contact your pedi or urologist
    if you're interested in this route.
    
    .....just passing it on.
    
    Dave, how ARE you doing these days with your children?  I'm hoping NO
    news is GOOD news??
    
        Lyn
    

	Been reading this file over and over for the last few weeks since
	Matt, almost 7 years old, has had an increased problem in this 
	area......but today, I'm feeling really uneasy and concerned, so
	thought I'd solicit input from any of you who care to give it....

from previous note.............    
"    On a related note, Wendy took Joshua for his annual checkup today (6
    yrs. old), and inquired aobut his bed-wetting. He said that it was
    totally normal for a 6 yr. old *particularly* a boy, to still be
    wetting the bed, and not to worry about, make a big deal over it, or
    basically do *anything* for at least 2-4 more years. Then they'll be a
    bit more concerned, but he said bed-wetting in boys often continues
    with no apparent physical or emotional reason, well into the early
    teens. Seems boys grow into that particular muscular control later than
    girls do.  ..................."

	Have been trying to keep these words in mind over the last few weeks.
	But after last night/this morning, I guess I'll just have to try 
	real hard to not make it any harder on Matt than it already is.....
	he was really upset this morning (Tuesday) about the whole thing, 
	feeling like I think he's stupid because of what happened.....
	......NOT the message I want him to hear.....problem is, he's been 
	such a deep sleeper lately, he doesn't wake up until it's too late...
	..half the time, he's still half/mostly	asleep even if he does get 
	up to go to the bathroom.....

	had problems on/off for the last two-three weeks....thought everything 
	was due to leaving his old daycare center, starting new after-school 
	care, starting school (FIRST GRADE !!), excitement, late
	nights......went away camping for the weekend, where he DIDN'T
	get any more sleep (actually, was up *much* later than usual on
	Friday night) but still managed to wake up and ask to be taken
	to the bathrooms and had NO accidents.......came home Sunday night
	and he got up Monday morning just a little damp from the time it
	took to get from his room to the bathroom downstairs......

	He woke me up last night (early early this morning) because he was
	crying....went upstairs to see what was wrong and found him standing
	by his bed, facing the wall.....checked and found out his bed and he
	were wet again.....had him go downstairs while I stripped the bed
	real quick and then put him back to bed on the living room couch..
	ok so far, no recriminations, no "bad boy", just took care of it and
	we both went back to sleep.....this morning, he went up and brought
	down the dirty bedding so I could get it into the washer before work..
	when he brought it down (still in the hamper where I tossed it in the
	wee hours of the a.m.), I pulled it and other dirty clothers out of
	it and found that, apparently still in his sleep, while he was
	standing by his bed, he used the hamper as a toilet !!  We went 
	upstairs, found wet on the floor, had him clean it up himself, and
	then had a long talk......he doesn't even REMEMBER what happened,
	just knows he must have done it because the other laundry in the
	hamper was soaked and smelled.......

	I'm going to print out the excerpt above and bring it home to show 
	him so he knows it's not unusual, just something we need to deal 
	with........will remake the bed tonight with the mattress cover and 
	put one	of the pads on......maybe that will help his confidence.....
	he thinks I should take him to the doctor, so I told him I would
	call but his doctor is away for the week and I really don't want him
	dealing with this with a strange doctor....I will talk with the 
	doctor next week when he's back though to see if there's anything 
	else he thinks we should do.........

	support, please ????

<	support, please ????

I have no similar experiences to share.  My son is only 3 1/2 (and has both wet
and dry nights).

I do send hugs to you all, though.

       Carol

    I can sympathize --  Steven's been much better lately, too (he's
    also 7), but he has weeks when he'll get the bed wet several
    nights in a row.  And when he does wake up to go during the night,
    it's not at all uncommon for him to miss the toilet, though I
    can't recall that he's ever managed to hit anything but the floor.
    
    It wouldn't surprise me if Matt is more afraid to find out he'd 
    doing things he doesn't remember than he is about the bedwetting. 
    I know I'd be real upset about that.  
    
    I think if it was Steven and he wanted to see a doctor now without
    waiting for his regular doctor to come back, I'd go ahead and
    arrange for him to see the substitute.   I can see how Matt might
    interpret your concern about the doctor as "this is too shameful
    to even let another person know about."  I'm not saying you meant
    that, only that I can see how he might have interpreted it wrong.  
    So maybe seeing the doctor right away would reassure him about
    that, and would also help with the worry about the sleepwalking
    and the not remembering.
    
    --bonnie
    

     <<< Note 207.42 by TLE::RANDALL "liberal feminist redneck pacifist" >>>
                               -< hang in there >-
>    I think if it was Steven and he wanted to see a doctor now without
>    waiting for his regular doctor to come back, I'd go ahead and
>    arrange for him to see the substitute.....

    I understand your point, but Matt doesn't know yet that his regular
    doctor isn't around right now.....I will let him know tonight and if
    he does want to see the other, of course I'll let him.....I just know
    he's VERY COMFORTABLE with Dr.K. and won't be surprised if HE decides
    he wants to wait and see him........

Carol, thanks for the hugs ... I sure need them today.

Debbi     

    Debbi, yes, definitely let Matt make the decision -- sorry if I
    sounded like I was suggesting anything else.  
    
    It's a pretty awful place to be in.
    
    --bonnie

Markus is now almost 11 and still wets almost every night.  There is no 
recrimination, nothing at all except that he has to wash himself so he is clean.
Either he or I take the wash downstairs.

I actually had a similar problem to your son when I was young (around 10) 
although I only actually wet the bed occassionally.  I would sleep walk and
use "other places" as the toilette.  In my mind, I guess, I had actually
gotten up and gone to the toilette.  Once I used a wastebasket, once the dirty
laundry closet which was just next to the bathroom.  Sometimes my parents
were able to catch me and gently direct me in the right direction.  I think
this was one of the steps I went through in becoming completely dry at night.
I seem to remember that after this point, I no longer wet the bed, but it did
go on for a several weeks.

It is important, in my opinion, that your child can talk to an authority
figure like the doctor (someone other than you) who can reassure him that there
is nothing "wrong" with him.  If he wants to be "treated", there are
verious things that can be tried.  There are some short term treatments with
medication, there is the system with the wet alarm pads, there is investigation
for sleep disorders.  We will try the alarm system for Markus again when
my husband is on an extended business trip (he has insomnia and it is a 
disaster if he is at home).  I guess what I am trying to say is let him talk it
over with the doctor and try what they (your son and dr.) decide is best.  For
the moment, your son may decide he isn't ready but I think it has to be his
decision without recrimination.

Good luck.  From one who has been through this both for myself and my son, I
know where you are coming from and I know how it hurts and worries him.  Love
him and hug him for me.

Cheryl

A friend told me that several years ago her dog was constantly peeing in a
corner at night. Every morning she would find the pee and would punish the
dog until after several days of this she was basically *beating* the dog.  
One night she heard a noise and came out and found her son sleepwalking and
peeing in that corner. 

a) the dog ate steak for a week, and b) she no longer beats her animals.

      Carol

My mother found the following ad for me.  I no longer have the address because
I used the coupon to send away for the free booklet but maybe somebody else
does.  I'd also like to know what the company recommends because I gave my true
address so I may never receive the booklet :-)

THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT!

( the parts between "_" were bolded in the original)

"BEDWETTING

Pacific International has been dealing with this _major parasomnia_ and 
correcting it effectively for _39 years_ when not caused by organic defect or
disease.  when a _proper correction_ is achieved with an enuretic (bedwetter),
they may _learn to sleep better or more normal_.  If you have a bedwetter, you
might like to see what Pacific International can do.

Our research extends into dealing with other parasomnias such as sleepwalking,
night terrors and bruxism (nocturnal tooth grinding).

Bedwetting can cause a _lack of self-image, self-esteem_ and other problems.
They _can't go to camp and stay over_ without being self conscious.

The wet bed is not the only problem.  The child or adult who has the problem of
bedwetting is sleeping incorrectly and may not benefit from the _REM (Rapid
Eye Movement)_ the way they should.

The late _Dr. Joseph G. Molner, Master of Public Health_, recommended our
program as does _Dr. E. Safapour, Master of Public Health_ and _Dr. Douglas
Palmenter, pediatrician of 15 years_.  Send for our free booklet.

ccb