Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Ah, number 3! Oh, we can really relate! We currently have 3 kids uner
    the age of 5...they are obviously closely spaced (each  22 months
    apart). How difficult was it for you to adjust from 1 ro 2? My wife and
    I did not find that hard, but 2 to 3 was MUCH harder....*at first*. It
    is an adjustment to no longer have one parent to comfort, help, etc.
    each child...now there's always an "extra" child. But...and this is a
    big "but", it is no harder now, than before. Once our baby was about
    3-4 weeks old, things really evened out. You fall into a new pattern,
    and its not so bad. My wife does stay at home full-time with the
    children, and that helps. For us, the cost increase was negligible. We,
    too , already had a boy and a girl, so clothes were relatively little
    problem. And even though she was unable to nurse (another story
    entirely), the cost of formula was manageable. Of course, as they get
    older, begin eating "real" food, needing shoes, etc. the cost goes up,
    but it is certainly not triple what it costs to have one. We found that
    the second one, on average cost maybe half again as much as the first,
    and if the third was even � again as much as that, I'd be surprised.
    But....and this is really significant.....no matter how much *you* want
    that third baby, if your husband is unwilling, it will be
    astronomically more dificult if you go ahead and have another child. My
    wife and I were in full agreement, and I truly enjoy helping with the
    children. If your husband does not want the child, he will likely be
    less than enthusiastic about helpin you. And you WILL need help, if you
    have 2 toddlers and a baby. Just my .02.
    Good luck with whatever you decide....we feel truly blessed for having
    each and every one of our precious children!
    
    --dave-- 

    I agree with Dave, I do not imagine that the increase monetarily will
    be that bad.  But again I also agree that if your Hubby doesn't want
    another, it will be hard to convince him.  I personally only have
    1 child (a girl, 3.9 years old) but I do want and will have three
    children.  I talked with my Fience in the begining and said that I would
    really like to have 3 children, luckily he would like three. As I
    stated, I already have 1 (from a previous marriage), now I'm just
    trying to figure out if he wants 3 all together or 3 more!
    
    This is going to be the fun part, as it looks I am going to have my
    children (to be) one after the other.  I say that because I would like
    to and my hubby (to be) would like to have all our children befor we are
    30 (that gives us 5 years).  If it doesn't happen the way we would
    like, that's ok, but we would like it that way though.
     

    We have 3, spaced about 3 years apart ...
    
    #1 hard
    #2 easier
    #3 a breeze until the terrible 2's but even then ...
    
    For #1 you tend to be so careful over everything
    For #2 your confidence improves and you are learning the "tricks of the
    trade"
    For #3 you know the tricks of the trade ... you don't worry about
    ultimate hygiene, you've learned how to calm them down, you've learned
    how to cope with medical problems ...
    
    The problems with #3 for us were manyfold ... (remember we are on a
    3 year spacing ... closer spacing makes this easier ...)
    
    The stroller that lasted 2 kids probably won't last the third ...
    (a lot of other things like that too ... they don't quite make it
    for 3 ... playtex baby bottles for example changed design and we
    couldn't get the old design nipples ...)  All in all, #3 was nearly
    as expensive as #1.  #2 was definitely the cheapest.
    
    Clothes should have been no problem, except that #3 was a spring rather
    than the late summer / autumn baby the others were, so the clothes for
    the appropriate size tended to be the wrong season's!
    
    Getting 3 across the back of the car was fun ... a car seat, a booster
    seat + 1 was a tight squeeze ... we bought a mini-van!
    
    Going out for meals ... restaurant tables for 4 were easy ... for 4 & 1/2
    (5) were difficult ... longer waits and keeping hungry kids waiting was
    not easy.
    
    We now have the problems of middle-kid-itis ... she feels so left out
    of everything!
    
    Mum was thinking of going to work ... that got shelved for a while yet
    ...
    
    If we were to make a decision as to whether to have a 3rd child again,
    would we do it .... hmmm ... I have my doubts ...
    
    Do we regret it ?  Not on your life ...
    
    Stuart

    
    Well, I am still working on my second kid, who will be 5 years younger
    than my first, so I cannot give you first hand info.
    
    These are some food for thoughts:-
    
    As far as $ is concerned, it gets more expensive as they get older.
    When kids are young, they can take hang-me-downs with no problem.
    But, ask a teenager to wear hang-me-downs, good luck! It costs
    a lot of $ to outfit 3 teenagers. It costs even more $ to send
    them to college. (This is one reason why we want our kids to be
    at least 4 years apart, we are making too much to qualify for
    financial aid.) Teenagers eat alot (especially boys), they are
    constantly hungry.
    
    Will all the kids fit comfortably in your car? Will you need
    a station wagon or small van? (I am the third kid, I had to
    sit in the middle, over the hump, all the time, I hated it!)
    
    Can you and your spouse emotionally deal with 3 young children
    and later 3 teenagers?
    It is a lot harder to find time for yourselves when they are young
    and they give you a whole lot to worry about when they reach puberty.
    
    Why doesn't your husband want another kid? Is it because it will
    be too big a burden on HIM as the breadwinner? If something happens
    to him, can you raise 3 kids by yourself and vice versa? YOu have to 
    know his real concern and try to reassuring him.
    
    Eva.

    In our house, it is the opposite.  I am still working on #2, but
    my husband is already talking about #3, #4, and #5.  Yes, he
    wants 5 kids.  He grew up in a big family and he really enjoys
    it.  Will I have 5 kids?  NO WAY!  I want to give my children
    the best and with 5 kids I really doubt we can manage financially.
    I think 2 is the most we can handle.  We are also saving for
    our retirement.  With more than 2 kids, there is no way we can
    afford the college but still have something left for ourselves.
    I love kids too.  But it is just too expensive.
    
    Wendy

    We just had #3 last fall.  #1 is 16 and #2 is 6, so you see we're
    kind of spread out, but still our experience is pretty similar to
    Stuart's.  The third one is a lot easier in many ways because
    you've been through most of it before, though having one more
    person in the house is a lot more work, too.
    
    I think your family background has a lot to do with how well you
    adjust.  Three kids has been hard for me.  Both my parents are
    only children, and I had just one brother, so I sometimes feel
    like I'm living in a circus, in the middle of the clown act with
    the elephants about to step on me.  I don't have any background to
    cope with all the extra confusion, noise, and the inability to
    have a simple conversation before at least one of the kids goes to
    bed.  Neil, who was one of three children, hasn't had any
    problems. 
    
    I went right back to work after #2, had no problems with the child
    care routine, and generally found kids no handicap on my career. 
    #3 has pushed the amount of time the family takes over the edge of
    what I can handle along with a job, so I started part time this
    week, putting my career on hold.  It sounds like this isn't an
    issue for you, but I don't feel terribly good about it.  I think
    my choice is the best for all concerned, but still . . . 
    
    #3 isn't very expensive when it's small, but as Eva poitned out,
    they do get more expensive as they get older and that's something
    to think about.  How will you pay for college for all of them? 
    Make them pay their own way?  Trusts?  Going back to work later
    on?  The answer doesn't matter so much as having thought about it
    ahead of time.  
    
    I'd definitely second Eva's suggestion that you find out exactly
    why your husband is opposed to having another child.  It might be
    worries about being the only breadwinner for a large family --
    perhaps you could put aside a major portion of your salary for a
    time, so there's a pool of extra money for emergencies?  Or work
    part time?  He might be from a small family and not know how to
    cope with more kids -- and that's a real issue, though it sounds
    silly to people who had more siblings.  He might be worried that
    it will cut into your time together, or impinge on the things you
    can do as a family -- and he's right, it will, if you don't take
    steps to make time for yourself.  It might be (probably is)
    something personal that we can't even guess at.  Maybe he doesn't
    feel like he should contribute to the world's overpopulation.  (I
    had some problems with that myself.)
    
    Two is good, three is good --  it's all up to you guys.
    
    --bonnie

    Eva made a good point - the only way you can really work this with your
    husband is to identify what his issues are.
    
    best of luck,
    

    I was in your shoes about two years ago, tho' my husband wasn't opposed
    to the idea, we were both wondering if we should add one more to the
    family, or take some permanent measure to prevent any more pregnancies. 
    Well fate took matteres into her own hands, and we were blessed with
    number 4 - another son, Joshua, - quite by surprise.  He's almost a
    year old, will be on Aug.31.  So we have four now, 5,5,4, and 11
    months.
    
    I can certainly sympathize with the "baby hunger" you're talking about. 
    It's funny how people feel this at different stages in their lives. 
    Obviously your husband isn't feeling it.  My husband did, actually more
    frequently than I did.  Perhaps that's because he came from a small,
    divorced family, and really wanted to have a sense of family when he
    married.  I on the other hand come from a family of ten, 8 children,
    and grew up with people all around me, noise confusion, very little
    privacy, not a whole lot of money etc.
    
    Anyway, I adore my kids, do not regret having four.  I might add I am
    very happy I had them so close together, they are all buddies, even the
    eleven month old!  I would recommend not waiting too long in between
    children if you want them to interact a lot, and share friends,
    interests etc.  I might add I RARELY have that "baby hunger" anymore
    tho'!!!!!!  In fact never.  Four is plenty!!!!!
    
    As for costs - I don't find the costs to be a drawback.  What has been
    a drawback is that having a baby limits the activities we as a family
    can do.  Just as the older ones were getting to the age of being "fun",
    that is going places without a stroller, bottles, diapers, etc., taking
    car trips, and such, along came Josh and we're back to all that
    paraphernalia again.  That's one of the reasons I'd suggest having them
    close if you're going to have another.  But soon Josh will be more
    "portable", and we can get into the fun stuff again.
    
    We don't even think about college.  It's too traumatic to think about
    it.  Besides, I came from a family of eight kids, five of us went to
    college without a dime of help from the government because we didn't
    qualify.  Work and state schools, help from mom and dad, we managed. 
    The others didn't go because they didn't want to.
    
    So, go for three?  Obviously you need a little cooperation from hubby
    ;-) but it's certainly doable and great to have a baby in the house!
    
    Luck!!
    

    I don't know how old you are.  Remember that having another will 'reset
    your life clock' by another 20 years or so from the time you conceive
    the child. That is, the things which you may want to do after the
    last child leaves the nest will be pushed out again.  Your expenses and
    time you will need to put toward the children will go up too. 
    Something which figured in my wifes and my decision on whether or not
    to have a 2nd child was the environmental impact still another person
    would have on this groaning Planet. (We decided not to have
    another). Its getting to the point where, I believe one must CONSIDER
    the impact and put the instincts to produce children aside for a
    moment.
    
    I probably am going to get jumped on for my above remarks.  That is to
    even QUESTION the wisdom of having more children which WILL have an
    impact on others, and the Planet.  The days of having as many children
    as possible because of a high death rate (at least in developed
    countries) are gone.  
    
    I don't mean to be insensitive (some will read my above remarks that
    way).  The wisdom of not producing more children in the interests of the
    Planet is rarely (if ever) raised in Parenting that I can remember.  I
    am fully aware of the emotions and needs adults have regarding having
    children.  Please be aware in any possible outraged replies to me that
    I am aware of the implications of what I said and I am not uncaring.
    But, I think it needed to be said: "Stop and think before you have more
    kids".   I would rather see fewer people with a higher quality of life
    and with each individual highly valued, than to have so many people
    that the quality of life goes down for everybody, and, the value of
    each individual potentially becomes less.   Jeff

    RE: .6 & .9
    
    Bonnie and Jeff,
    
    Both of you have hit the nail on the head as far as my husband is
    concerned. He wants to adopt in 3 years. He feels that there are too
    many children in the world with no parents. And he is absolutley right.
    I would love to adopt...I just don't want to wait 3 years. He of course
    is worried about money too. Adoption can get pretty expensive, and you
    have to have a bit of money up front. So we couldn't adopt right now.
    In 3 years we probably could.
    
    The other thing is, I loved being pregnant, and I loved labor...it was
    so exciting. I am just afraid that adoption will not be as exciting. I
    bet a few adoptive parents out there could prove me wrong though. I
    wouldn't mind hearing their experiences.
    
    You all have certainly given me a few things to think about. Any more
    advice would be appreciated.

    Re: .9 & .10
    The point of overpopulation is certainly one many are concerned with
    today.....but please consider this (And, if you don't believe me, look
    it up for yourself....that's what i did when I first heard it!). If you
    were to take the *ENTIRE* population of the world, and house them *ALL*
    in an area the size of the state of Texas, it would be less densely
    populated than NY city is right now. Now, I know, I know, not everyone
    wants to live that tightly packed. But there are many areas of our
    world that are currently more densely populated than NYC is now.
    Although there are obviously many land areas unsuitable for crop or
    animal production, it should be obvious from the above example that the
    earth is not "groaning" yet, or probably anywhere in the near future
    (or even distant future). Technology continues to produce more and more
    efficient food production methods, and foods with incredible
    nutritional content are available right now (certain high-yield,
    high-protein grains come to mind). The rub is, of course, in managing
    the earth efficiently enough to support ourselves. Only in the last
    several decades have people become aware to a great degree, of
    environmental issues. I do firmly believe that it is not
    overpopulation, but undermanagement of resources and land areas. When
    will we do this adequately? Maybe never...I don't know. But I think
    excellent beginnings are being made, and I certainly feel no guilt
    whatsoever about having three children and planning on a fourth.
    
    in ref. to reply .10.....that  I agree with! Too many children without
    parents, families, and too many that are in "families" that are
    severely dysfunctional and show them no love, guidance, etc. To my
    thinking, this is the far greater and most tragic thing our society
    (and others) has ever had to deal with. throw away kids. Kids with no
    guidance.
    So if you can give three kids the love and attention they need, and if
    hubby agrees....IMHO....go for it. But if you have nay doubts....wait.
    That old baby hunger goes away pretty quickly when you're getting up 2
    or 3 times a nite with a little newborn (or so my wife tells me!).
    Our prayers are with you....whatever you choose!
    --dave--

    Dave, your points are well taken, I sure hope your right.  You could
    have fooled me as I wait in line for many many products and services
    which there were NO waits for 30 years ago, such as: You name it..
    groceries, gasoline occasionally, traffic lights, stores, etc. etc.
    I know, I know these are local problems not world wide problems. What
    about the lines in Russia for food, the lack of medical care for lack
    of sufficient Dr.'s in the 3rd world... the excess trash I could go
    on forever here.  I know I know, poor management.  Well whatever the
    cause, the effect I see is too many people for the available resources.
    And, I dare say it will get alot worse as population continues to grow and
    management of resources doesn't keep pace. Fewer people requires less
    efficient management (which we don't have anyway, that is, efficient
    management). 
    
    I think we have only begun to see the beginning as poorly managed
    populations increasingly strain the earths' support systems. 
    
    The solutions for some?  Adopt... you fix two problems in one stoke.
    
    1. You provide a home for a parentless child.
    
    2. You DON'T increase the worlds population by still another person.
    
    Jeff

    	The problem for .0 is not HOW to get the third child, or even
    	how to pay for it (from what I can discern).  Rather it is an
    	issue with her husband's ability to deal and cope with a third
    	child.
    
    	YOU CAN'T *MAKE* HIM WANT ANOTHER CHILD!  I personally would not
    	be able to deal with another.  We now have 4.  It was harder and
    	harder for us (me) to adjust our lives as each new one came 
    	along. 
    
    	Money is not really the issue.  You always seem to make do with
    	what you have.  It is emotional for me.  It is an issue of patience
    	and tolerance.  It is an issue of energy.  It comes down to 
    	personal space and autonomy.  It is a matter of lifestyle.
    	Perhaps it is a matter of my selfishness.
    
    	And I do not intend to say that I couldn't love another one if
    	it came along.  I wondered that about my 4th.  As it turns out,
    	he has been the greatest source of joy for us these past two
    	tumultuous years.
    
    	But everybody has a limit.  Imagine having 20 kids.  Imagine
    	surviving with 10.  Could I manage with 7?  Where does the cutoff
    	occur?  I do not want to find out by having that one extra that
    	crosses the threshold.
    
    	To the author in .0, please do not try to force your husband to
    	test his threshold.  If he indicates that he might want another,
    	then get on the stick and have another.  But don't force him to
    	"want" one.  It can only lead to resentment.
    
    	At the same time, I think it is important for him to understand
    	your deep hunger for the third.  You are as entitled to your 
    	feelings and needs as he is.  Together you will have to weigh
    	your needs, and in a spirit of love for each other, and for the
    	sake of your relationship, at least come to a mutual acceptance and
    	understanding of your feelings.  Don't let children come between
    	your marriage.  Your marriage will (hopefully) be intact long
    	after the kids are gone, and is really the number one priority
    	in your lives.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    This has turned into an interesting discussion and a lot of the
    thoughts expressed here I contemplate frequently. My husband only
    wanted 2 kids in fact he wanted to adopt versus have our own. I also
    feel like Jeff does about the world becoming overpopulated and that we
    should be responsible humans and think not just of ourselves and our
    maternal/paternal instincts, but limit ourselves so our children and
    children's children have a choice in their lives. I would hate to live
    in a society like China where there is a one child limit per couple.
    
    That is all very frightening for me and I also appreciate Dave's point
    of view and perspective on the matter. I have a great desire to have 3
    children, like the basenoter I loved being pregnant, giving birth and I
    am really enjoying my toddler. She is such a joy and has really added
    tremendously to my life and my husband's. 
    
    My sister and her husband made the decision to only have two
    children for all of the reasons stated but it was still very hard for
    her. When they made that decision not to have anymore children, it
    moved them from the Child Bearing years into their Child Rearing years.
    It was not an easy thing for her to deal with that her life has moved
    on. 
    
    - Jan -

    This has provoked some very lively, and wonderful discussion.  Here's
    my situation and wonder if I might get some opinions?  We would dearly
    enjoyhaving another child, #2, to love.  (Actually it would be #5 if we
    count the miscarriages and stillbirth I have a hormone imbalance
    which causes infertility and mis's) But what's seems to be some of
    the big factors in our lives include, my age (just handled the "big
    40th, he's 36) and the age gap between children.  If we start now AJ will be
    about 4.5, will a newborn hamper both the spontaneous family
    activities, and cause sibling rivaly or resentment, bigtime? and since I'll 
    be mid 50's when this child is ready for college, will we be too old to 
    enjoy him/her?  I've already been mistaken several times for AJ's
    Grandmother-grrrrr!!
    
    Thanks!
    Lyn
    

    Lyn,
    
    I'm not quite 40 yet, but my oldest is 16, my middle is 6, and my
    youngest is 10 months.
    
    Yes, there's sibling rivalry -- there is between any two children. 
    Depending on the age difference it may take different forms and
    show up in different areas of behavior, but it's going to be there
    no matter what the ages.  We've found that in many ways the bigger
    gaps are easier to handle because the older ones are old enough to
    be reasoned with or bribed. 
    
    I'm 36 now, so I'll be 54 when the youngest leaves for college. 
    I'm not sure I like the idea -- I did not plan on spending the
    bulk of my adult life raising little ones -- but it's only a minor
    drawback compared to the joys of the new baby.  Neil was helpful
    about this since his mother was 42 when he was born, and many of
    the kids he grew up with also had older parents, so three kids and
    parents getting ready to retire when the kids leave for college
    seems normal to him. 
    
    So I'd say if you want it, go for it.
    
    --bonnie

  My sister-in-law had her second when her daughter was 5.  She was 38 when
  number 2 was born.  She is absolutely thrilled and has had no problems
  with the age separation. The youngest is now 1 and 1/2 and the older girl
  is 7.  The spontaneous family is still there but just with one addition.

  What came up recently was the older girl was upset and wouldn't tell the
  parents why.  The parents are alway commenting on how much the girls are
  alike in looks etc.  Well, it turned out the older girl was concerned that 
  the parents would give her away since the younger one was so much like her.
  Where do they come up with these things!  Everything has been fine since
  that has been cleared up, but I guess parents need to be careful about
  comparing siblings at any age.

    My mom was 41 when #5 was born.  I am #4, and was "the baby" for 12
    years.  The loss of that "distinction"  was easy enough to handle in a
    short period of time, because I was nearly a teenager.  
    
    I did see my parents change their standards in time with my younger
    sister, and I think that alot of it may have been the fact that they
    were older and "had been through it all before."  Their situation is a
    bit different though.  You're talking about #2, and it is something you
    are objectively considering and possibly planning.  My parents thought
    that their "baby days" were over!  
    
    BTW:  My husband is not too far away from 40, and I am in my early 30s.
          We have yet to START our family!  The kids will keep us young!

    The following is being entered for a member of our community who 
    wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    =========================================================================

I'm really curious about "BABY HUNGER".  I have a friend who has had a
childhood disease since she was a very young child.  At this time she is
showing signs of deterioration.  She is adamant that she wants to have a baby. 
I don't understand this.  Having a  baby would be detrimental to hers and the
babies health.  My question is why would someone want to take a chance on
having a baby when there is every possibility that having a baby could kill her
and possibly cause terrible problems with the baby.  I would like the opinion
of women who have experienced "BABY HUNGER".  Would you take a chance with your
life and the life of the baby just to satisfy the hunger?   Wouldn't it be
unfair to bring a child into the world for the sake of saying that your
life-long dream of having a baby has come true? If you weren't around to watch
the baby grow up, or you bought a handicapped child into the world because of
your desire to to have a baby would you have really satisfied the "BABY
HUNGER"?  

    	This one strikes close to home. I've been told by many people (some
    of them Doctors) not to attempt to have children because I have lots of
    medical problems as a result of being hit by a car when I was younger.
    (I was very athletic up to that point and even ran track and cross
    country in college) I've spent many, many years in and out of hospitals
    having surgeries and being "over-hauled". I've also been told that
    having a baby could seriously damage my body even more so than it
    already is.

    	Why have I decided to have a baby?

    	Because basically what it comes down to is this. It's my life and
    not theirs. So many times before the medical professionals (and
    relatives and well meaning friends) have been wrong about what my
    prospects would be. At various times, I've been told that I would never
    walk again, to buy a wheel chair, that my leg would have to be
    amputated, or that I would be in debilitating pain and need to be
    hospitalized long term for that.

    	I stand today on both legs, walk with assistance at times (not
    always), and have pain that is rough at times, but is certainly
    manageable.

    	I just don't buy into their predictions, because I know what a
    strong will (with gobs of stubbornness) can do.

    	So sure, I'm taking a chance having this baby, but I also take
    chances when I drive my car to work in the morning. I take chances
    breathing the air.

    	You'll find that people who have long term illness usually develop
    a very philosophical attitude about life, if it was meant to be, it
    will be. In my case, I truly believe this. I am also not afraid of more
    damage or pain, my life means so much more than just being a perfect
    body. I have found aspects of my life that could have been impossible
    to see had I not had this entire experience.

    	And I want to be able to share that with a child. And I want to be
    able to share that with my husband. And I want to be able to have my
    husband's child. Why should I be considered to be any different from
    any other woman who has the same emotions and dreams?

    	Not consider having a child because I don't fit up to some sort of
    societally imposed standards? Hogwash. 

    	As far as having a handicapped child, who knows, I've had so many
    x-rays and surgeries and medications in my life, there is a possibility
    of some sort of impairment, does it mean I should not take a chance? I,
    personally, think "don't be ridiculous". With all of my medical and
    personal experience (and training) what better parent could there be
    to take care of a handicapped child? 
              
    			Wendy

    Wendy, 
    
    I think the point isn't to question whether you, or the noter's
    friend, has the right to make this decision.  Obviously it's your
    life, and obviously the medical profession has been wrong on many
    occasions, especially about the body's capacity to heal.  I
    certainly don't mean to question your judgement, and I apologize
    in advance if the rest of this note sounds like it.  I'm trying to
    understand where you're coming from, but the words sound harsh no
    matter how I phrase them.  
    
    It's very difficult to stand by and watch a friend choose a course
    that inflicts deliberate pain on herself when you don't comprehend
    the feeling that motivates her.  
    
    I've got a friend who's going to be in a hospital in Virginia for
    the last three months of her pregnancy.  She knew this was almost
    certain to happen.  The doctors estimate that 4 or 5 out of 10
    pregnancies for women with her condition end in death of either
    mother or baby or both.  (No, I don't know exactly what condition
    she's got, sorry -- some kind of blood disease.)  That's a lot
    higher risk than just driving to work, but she always wanted a
    large family, and she wouldn't even consider adoption.  She has to
    do it herself. 
    
    That's more than just not fitting some societal idea of what a
    mother's physical condition should be.  
    
    I should add, I don't get the same feeling of desperation from you
    that I get from my friend.  You seem to have weighed the issues
    and potential consequences and made a rational decision to take a
    calculated risk based on sound knowledge of where the dangers and
    problems will lie.  My friend comes across as thinking that life
    without giving birth to her own baby would be worse than death. 
    That's the kind of baby hunger I don't understand.
    
    Again, I apologize if this sounds harsh or questioning.  I don't
    intend it in that light.  I want to understand.
    
    --bonnie

    In response to a couple of questions -- no, I'm not the anonymous
    noter, though the first paragraph kind of sounds like it.  It's
    coincidental that someone I know just went into the hospital
    because of a decision similar to the one described in .19.
    
    And thinking about it more last night, it occured to me that this
    whole issue can get really tangled up with issues of woman's role
    in society.  I think my friend really thinks that she won't be a
    "real" woman unless she gives birth to a child.  When she got
    pregnant, she wasn't thinking, "I'd like a family and I think the
    risks I'm taking are manageable."  She seemed to be thinking more
    along the lines of "I'm going to risk my life to ensure that I
    experience the completeness of womanhood."
    
    --bonnie

    	And I also had been thinking about this topic last night. 

    	First of all, I am in a different "chronic disease" category than
    some others, I will  never die from my condition. I may become
    incapacitated to some degree but I will never die from it.

    	However, through my travels, I have met many people (lots of young
    women) who do have the very kind of diseases that have been brought up.

    	Although I think that they and I have a lot in common, I can only
    *suggest* some reasons why a woman with a chronic disease may opt to
    have a child (in fact, I know of several women who have).

    	MORTALITY/AGE - When you are relatively young, you don't entertain
    the thought of getting older (why do you think the advertisers are
    making such a killing on products that hide gray hair?) Having a baby
    *may* be an attempt to show that you are still young enough to "go
    through with it".

    	Also, even if you hear about the possible complications of having a
    baby with your condition, you are apt to say "it will never happen to
    me". It is that same mortality issue and is why complications are taken
    so very hard by people with chronic conditions.

    	DENIAL/CONTROL - If I (and I'm speaking in first person here
    because I'm trying to put myself in her shoes) give into my disease,
    then my disease will take over. Very often, it is the fighters that
    become what Bernie Segal calls the "exceptional patients". You can
    acknowledge your disease and you can work within it's limits but you
    can never give in to it. Having a baby may be a way of openly taunting
    the disease and telling it who is the one who is really in control.

    	When you are constantly hospitalized or are under a physician's
    care, you often begin to lose a certain amount of control over your
    life. The ultimate control of a woman's body is to allow a baby to be
    conceived and develop in it. Having a baby may be a very important step
    in maintaining control over what may be perceived as chaos. So having
    the baby again, may be a method of regaining supremacy over your
    condition.

    	PRODUCTIVITY - Often people with diseases or disabilities are
    perceived as not being completely there or not pulling their own
    weight. (when I walk with my Canadian crutches (Jimmy fund crutches)
    people have treated me as if I am mentally retarded). People who don't
    have a clue about how much it takes to live with a disease or
    disability often cast judgment. Having a baby may be a response to
    that issue, proving to the world that you can be productive, that you
    can do something that is *recognized* as "pulling your own weight".

    	SEXUALITY - Bonnie, you touched on this in your last reply, when
    you are constantly in the hospital (and we know how much privacy you
    are afforded there) you can begin to lose a sense of your sexual self.
    People (medical staff) often come in requesting information or access
    to your body and you are supposed to willingly comply without
    hesitation. After a while you start to become numb to your sexual self,
    it's a method of coping. Having a baby may be a way to affirm your
    sexuality and once again, proving to others (and yourself) that you are
    indeed a sexual being.


    	SENSE OF JOY - With so much pain in your life, who wouldn't want to
    buy into the fantasy of "the happiness of having a baby"? Having a baby
    could be seen as an escape from the pain. It could be an avenue of
    projection and perhaps most importantly, it could serve as a new focus
    that takes your mind off of your own troubles.

    	LONELINESS - Having a baby is a method of creating a person who is
    dependent on you and will love you no matter what you look like or what
    medications or equipment you will need. Having a chronic condition can
    be very lonely and having a baby could be a method of filling that gap.

    	IMPENDING DEATH - Most people who have lived with long term
    illnesses or conditions have an innate sense of "impending Condition".
    Much of it comes from being so constantly aware of your body. When I
    fall, I can "sense" immediately if I have done some real damage or if I
    have just strained or sprained something. People with cyclic conditions
    or conditions that occasionally flare up seem to have a sense of when
    these events will happen, very often they tend to clean up their lives
    right before such an event occurs.

    	There are also people who are aware that they are dying or that
    their condition is getting irreversibly worse. Having a baby may be a
    way for these people to live on through their child. Especially if they
    are married, then it becomes important to leave something behind should
    they have to die. 


    ______________________________________________________________

    	I have offered many theories about why a woman with a chronic
    disease or disability would want to have a baby *even* if it meant
    possible damage to the mother or the child. I can't claim that any of
    these reasons are the ones why your friends are deciding to take
    this course, but I'm willing to bet that some of these reasons are
    probably behind the decisions.


    				Wendy

    Thanks, Wendy, those offer considerable insight into my friend's
    behavior -- especially the issues of control and immortality.  I
    hadn't considered either of those, but I suspect that both factors
    are part of her decision.  It makes a lot more sense now.
    
    I hope it also helps .19 understand her friend.
    
    I appreciate your taking the time to project the possible feelings
    from the pont of view of somebody who's been in a similar
    situation.  It's very hard for someone who's always been blessed
    with good health to understand the changes that come from living
    constantly with health problems.  Thanks very much for sharing.
    
    --bonnie

    I am one of five children.  All but the eldest (a sister) are married.
    I married a little over three years ago, and my youngest sister just a
    little over two.  When my little sister married, my oldest sister was
    very, very emotionally upset.  Not only did she yearn to marry, but she
    yearned to have children.
    
    My oldest sister is a chronic diabetic.  In the last year she has been
    hospitalized five times.  In fact, she's hospitalized right now and has
    been for over two months.  She has lost part of her foot, has
    neuropathy, renal failure, heart disease and has had laser eye
    surgery.  Worst of all, her emotional state has been very poor-- which
    has had a detriment impact on her health.                
    
    I pray that I'll have my sister for a very long time, but I can see the
    direction that her disease is taking her in.  When I think back to how
    she talked to me and told me how she longed to be married and have a
    family... I feel now that everything is part of a plan...  I have no
    right to play God, but I feel that she could not support or care for
    children-- physically or emotionally.  I also understand her yearning
    and hope that those in the family who do have children can do all they
    can to help fill the void by giving her lots of love and taking lots of
    love, for and from "auntie."
    
    Rgds,
    marcia