Conference moira::parenting_v3

    your cats seem a bit old (13.75 and 12.75) to accept another
    person in their lives.  Since you have had them since they were
    kittens, they were used to just you.
    
    My situation was similar - Mitzu (12.), Tina (8.) and AJ (2.) - then
    Alex came along (now 3 years old).  Mitzu hated him, she actually
    hissed at him when my back was turned.  Tina liked him and the
    smell of his diapers (brain dead cat!) and she is Alex's favorite.
    AJ on the other hand, runs like the wind as soon as Alex is within
    10 feet of him.  
    
    Bad news - we had to put Mitzu down because she got real nasty - not
    only towards Alex as an infant, but to the other cats and to me.
    Sometimes cat's just get ticked off and just stay that way. I tried
    everything with Mitzu (she also had some health problems) more
    attention, her favorite treats, etc... nothing worked.
    
    You might try the Feline notes file on more advice.
    
    Good luck
    Kathy

    I have two cats (Lightening-11 y.o. and Fluffy-12 y.o.) and two
    children (Krystal-5 1/2 and Alex-2).  Fortunately I've never had any
    problems with the cats.  During both pregnancies of my children, the
    cats were very careful not to pounce on my stomach.  About a month
    after the deliveries, the cats went back to their playful selves
    pouncing and walking across my stomach.  It was strange but they seem
    to know!  The only thing I remember doing is introducing the newcomers
    to the cats each time and just giving the cats affection also letting
    them know we didn't forget them.  
    
    Fluffy, who is persian/siamese mix, will pretty much stay at a safe
    distance.  Lightening, however, will let the kids roll on him,
    roughhouse him, etc.  After a few minutes of this, he will get up and
    walk away.  If the kids get too rough, he will hiss at them and that's
    the extent of it.
    
    Both cats are over 20 pounds, declawed in the front paws, and
    neutered/spayed.
    
    Lightening will let us know when he isn't getting enough attention in
    his own way but nothing destructive.  
    
    They're like little kids too--they need attention.

    Adult cats, dogs, and people can all be inflexible, and not just about
    kids.  Years back, I added a strange cat (Luna) to a prior pair; it was
    about 2 years before they would stop hissing at her.  After 5 years
    they achieved indifference.  Only a couple of years after the younger
    of the original pair died did the older (Terio) start taking ANY
    pleasure in Luna's company.  Now Terio (at least 18) is the only one
    left.
    
    The cats and kids have never given each other a hard time, and the kids
    enjoy and I think learn from the pets.  But they aren't playmates. 
    Kittens are fun, but turn into more serious, independent, adult cats
    fairly soon.  A dog, with its pack instincts, retains bonded
    interactivity longer, if that's what you're after.
    
    		- Bruce

    re:.1
    
    I put a note in the feline notesfile a while back and didn't get
    much response, although the replies that I did get were really
    interesting (note 3149).  At any rate, I just wanted to hear stories
    about how you all have dealt with this and amusing stories, as well.
    
    About dogs...  yes, I agree that they're much more interactive and
    fun for children.  My husband wants a dog badly, but we really don't
    have the space right now and I'm sure that this would really send
    The Cowboy over the edge in a big way.
    
    Thanks and keep those stories coming...
    
    - Kathryn
    
    
    - Kathryn
    

    We have a 5-year old, 10 pound Shit-Tzu, "Patches".  Patches is very
    lax-a-dazical and definately "brain dead".  She can be extremely
    playful and VERY tolerant.  Patches LOVES attention and often
    misinterrupts "teasing and torments" as "love and attention" (much to
    JA's benefit!).
    
    So ... JA and Patches are best of friends.  JA crawls (just like the
    dog), "was" trading food with him (until we covered the dog dish with
    the wastebasket), follows him under the dining room chair rungs and
    around the table, he licks her diaper (yuck!) and is a permanent
    fixture UNDER her highchair (perfectly positioned for treats from
    The_Babe).  Patches follows her in her walker and sits next to JA when
    she's playing on the floor.  JA throws the beachball at Patches ... and
    Patches LOVES it!  JA also drops toys out of the playpen (on the dog's
    head) and the dogs LOVES this, too!  (like I said, "brain dead"!).
    If JA plays too rough, then Patches just retreats far under our 
    waterbed where JA can't reach.  Patches naps 3 feet from The_Babe 
    (swing, playpen, crib ...).  Patches gets extremely upset when 
    visitors arrive (never used to before JA arrived).  
    Patches only "runs and hides" when JA does something that Patches 
    KNOWS is "bad" ... OR JA's playing too rough.
    
    The Parrot, on the otherhand, HATES JA with deep passion!  "Mango"
    barks when eye contact is made (and rightfully so!) ... because within
    seconds JA will be at the cage shaking and shaking until Mango
    literally falls off the perch.  Now Mango's trying to outsmart JA by
    jumping to the bottom of the cage BEFORE JA gets to her cage.  We have
    done EVERYTHING to discourage JA ... and the only thing that seems to
    work is to "cover" Mango's cage with a sheet (when we're in the Rec
    Room).  Mango seems to prefer the sheet over The_Kid.
    
    So, we live in a Zoo!
    
    Dottie

    
    Both of my cats are 1 year older than my daughter (now almost 5).
    My cats were never nasty, but they avoided my daughter for the
    about 3 years until my daughter learnt how to love and RESPECT them.
    Since the cats were here first, I made sure my daughter knew the
    rules!!!( the senority thing :-)) Now, my daughter feeds them everyday
    and gives them lots of attention (the right kind, like scratching
    under the chin, etc). When my daughter was a toddler, I never
    expected the cats and her to "play" together, I just prayed that
    my daughter didn't get scratched or bitten!!!  
    
    re.0
    Things may improve as times goes by.
    
    
    Eva.
    

    re:-1 (Eva)
    
    Thanks...  that's what I really wanted to hear.  I truly hope that
    one day they will all be friends.  So I guess "time will tell".
    
    - K

My cat ("Darlin" age 11) never took much to Kati after she was born.  She
basically left the room when she knew Kati had seen her, and ignored her
as much as possible.

My trick?  Kati eats a bowl of cereal every morning, and used to drink the
leftover milk.  One day she didn't want it so I let her give it to the kitty,
and Darlin *loved* it.  Now she will purposely leave some milk every day for
the "kee" and Darlin comes running.  (Granted that is the only time Darlin will
have anything to do with Kati, but it seems to satisfy Kati!)

Oh yeah - we switched Kati to a waterbed a few weeks ago and Darlin has
decided that is a neat place to hang out.  Kati thinks it is neat that the
kitty sleeps with her (she doesn't know that the kitty leaves shortly after 
Kati arrives!)

Maybe something to entice the cats?????

Kristen

    I agree with Kristen. We have a 3.5 year old dog who used to growl
    under his breath when Justine looked at him (nothing dangerous he
    always runs away from her). Justine would love to be able to love him
    ( she lays her head on any animal's back that will let her). Well
    the dog is slowly coming around and we have been working with Justine
    to be gentle. I take Justine on walks with the dog in the backpack, let
    her give the dog his treats and he watches out for her in his own way.
    
    
    
    This weekend we were visiting at my parents and they
    have 2 cats (Justine loves cats) and a small dog. We brought a big
    batch of catnip with us and let Justine give it to them. They loved it
    and she loved it. I've been trying to talk my husband into letting us
    get a cat (he says if she still loves them when she's 5 - I think we're
    wearing him down! He always tells me that we already put the dog
    through enough pain by bringing the child into the house.)
    
    I know it's frustrating because the children really want to be near the
    animals and if supervised can be quite gentle. But our dog is getting
    quite tolerant these days.
     

    Our cat and dog were the exact opposite - they loved being with our
    son. The cat did have his time alone during the day where he wanted no
    one. I think what helped was allowing both animals to be part of the
    baby preparation. The cat tried to jump into the crib once and got
    hollered at (pre-child) and never did it again. I let the dog smell the
    babies clothes - maybe she got used to the smell of Dreft! The dog
    NEVER once made a pass, snarl, nip, yap or anything toward our son. The
    cat only would meow loudly when his tail was being pulled and the cat
    knew he was going to get some serious attention after having it tugged
    at. We did let our son give them their treats. 
    
    I think the cat-dog combination worked because the cat had to become
    tolerate of the dog (who wanted to play all the time). We also spent
    alot of time knowing the breed before buying. We knew children would be
    coming so we selected a breed that was "maternal" and tolerant of these
    type of changes. If we had the cat alone, I don't think he would have
    been very tolerant of our son but he got used to the dog first. I think
    dogs are easier to select for family changes because cats tend to
    really develop their own personalities and are difficult to change.
    
    I remember the cat trying to figure out what happened to my lap as I 
    got further in my pregnancy. The first time the baby kicked while the
    cat was on what was left of my lap, was hysterical. That look he gave
    my could have put my 6 feet under. He soon learned that he had to lay
    on my thighs or next to me. Maybe I bonded them unconsciously. Once the
    cat also learned that babies drop food, I used to feed him with a dog
    laying on one side and a cat on the other patiently waiting for
    something to drop. The cat was smarted because he used to sit on my
    son's right side where the waving spoon was!!
    
    Give them time and hope the cats learns that family changes happen and
    you're not going to find a "suitable home" for your child!!
    
    Good luck. There are some good notes in FELINE and CANINE about the
    introduction of pets to children so they start out on the right foot.

	You want cat and kid stories?  We got cat and kid stories!

	We have *7* cats!  (5 indoor only - 2 indoor/outdoor)  They range in 
age from 2 to 7 1/2 years.   

	Our cats really never had a problem with Katie.  Probably because they 
are used to comings and goings of little critters.  For a while there, it seemed
we were adopting a new stray every 6 months to a year!   Then there were the two
puppies whose mommy was ill so we took then in and bottle raised them.  Then
there were the 4 orphaned 5-day-old kittens that we bottle-raised....  You get 
the idea.

	Our cats have always seemed to know that they have to make allowances
for little ones.  They put up with crap from kittens,puppies, and kids that they 
would *destroy* an older cat for doing to them.  

	Of the cats, Nazgul pretty much keeps his distance.  If he and Katie are 
in the same room, he'll be on top of the the 6 1/2 foot bookshelves or headed 
out the door for the most part.  Celeborn was pretty much the same way, until 
the day Katie (then 9 months old) picked up the peacock feather and waved it in 
his face.  Cele *lives* to play with the feather!  Now he follows Katie around
and you can just hear the little soundtrack going in his head. "Is she going to 
pick up the feather now?  *Now* is she going to?  Maybe the feather is in the 
closet...  Oh boy!  She's going to the closet!"  :-)  Pippin and Cinnamon (the
two indoor/outdoor cats) and Gandalf are pretty much indifferent to her.  If she
leaves them alone, they'll return the favor.  (The degree of indifference 
varies.  Cinnamon is downright apathetic. Pip ignores her inside, but rubs 
against her so hard that he knocks her down outside.  Gandalf and Katie had a 
short period of time in which they had to sort out the pecking order.  Once we 
were sure of Gandalf's behavior, (when Katie was about 9-10months old I guess)
we let them sort it out.  Two VERY light (hardly broke the skin) scratches 
later, Katie knew where the line was with Gandalf and what would happen if she 
crossed that line.  They are not pals, but they get along.)  Sam would LIKE to 
play with Katie and he keeps trying, but she invariably gets a bit rough for 
him.  When he's had enough, he walks away.  

	Then there is Frodo.  Frodo is Katie's pal.  He puts up with tail-
pulling, ear-twisting, being chased, *sat on*, just about anything.  When Katie 
was, oh, I guess 4-5 months old, at the stage when she was making the connection
of holding things in both hands and pulling them into her mouth, Frodo was 
sitting on her lap while she was on my lap getting a bottle.  When the bottle 
was gone, I sat her up.  This put her nose to nose with Frodo,  who had been 
nibbling on her fingers and toes (his way of expressing affection :-} ).  She 
give this HUGE grin, grabbed an ear in each hand and pulled his nose into her 
mouth.   The look on his face was a classic!  "Wait a minute!  I'm supposed to 
be chewing on YOU!"  Once I untangled them, he kind of shook his head, like 
"Whoa!  I'm not sure about that!"  and decided he'd just as soon sit elsewhere 
for a while.  That's the only thing I've seen Katie do to him that phased him.

Tracey 
  

    Looks like I have to add my .02.  We have two dogs (Shetland Sheepdogs)
    a cockateil, and our downstairs tenant, who also happens to be our
    babysitter, has six (6) cats and a guinea pig.  Guess we have all the
    bases covered!  Her son is 9 months old, mine is 7 months old, to add
    to the menagerie in our household!  Most of her cats leave the room
    when the babies descend upon them.  One, who is my personal favorite,
    lays within reach of the kids and will tolerate some fur-pulling before
    high-tailing it to another room.  One cat developed a "spraying"
    problem, which resulted in her being placed with my friend's father.
    Each of my dogs has a different attitude towards the kids.  One
    (Bandit) leave the room the instant David notices him. The other dog 
    follows him along, knowing sooner or later he will spit up or drop a 
    cookie...both are equally tasty to him (yuck).  Like Dottie's household, 
    the bird is terrified of David because he reaches up and slaps the cage.  
    Poor Bubba usually slips off his perch and hides in the corner until 
    that little "human" leaves him alone.  Bubba also talks, so that entices 
    David even more.  On occassion one of my friends cats will saunter
    upstairs and look around our apartment, which is really interesting
    since the baby heads for the cat, Bandit leaves the room (we adopted
    him after he was returned to the breeder from an abusive home, so he
    tends to leave the room whenever he feels threatened), Bart doesn't
    know who to follow (cat or baby), and the cat heads for the bird. I
    bring up the rear, making sure nobody gets harassed!  Guess I should
    start looking over my shoulder and see who's following me???  
    
    Sarah
    

    Sarah - Hi there!  One great thing I know about our dogs - collies...
    they are a fabulous breed with children!  They love children, and
    protect them as if they were their own.  
    
    I also have cockatiels-- two of them!  And something has been going
    through my mind as I think about starting a family some day soon... How
    does your baby SLEEP with your bird around????  I don't know about
    your's, but I have two cockies who scream their fool heads off!  I was
    thinking that the advent of a baby might cause us to adopt our little
    Larry & Lady Bird out to a new home!
    
    Here's another "vote" for CANINE.  There are some great notes in there
    about dogs and children.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

Funny this note is very timely.  This morning when I checked Kevin, there
was one of our dogs sleeping next to his bed.  We have two very LARGE 
dogs (1/2 golden retriever, 1/2 yellow lab) Mickey and Molson, 6 years old.  
Kevin LOVES the dogs.  They inturn, follow him around the yard and house.  
At meals they strategically lie down near his seat at the table. (BTW -They're 
not allowed near the table until we finished eating.  So even if something is 
dropped they must wait to grab it until we're done.)  

Molson (aka - Her Highness, the b*tch) tolerates Kevin.  She was a present from
my hubby to me when we bought our first house.  I grew up with the best dog, 
and vowed once we had our house I'd get another.  Friends fell in love with 
her, and decided to get one of their own, so my husband took them up to the 
farm where he got Molson.  He came back with Mickey (aka - Michelob,the LOB, 
the Mick, the garbage disposal) one of Molson's brothers.

Mickey adores Kevin.  Mick sleeps in Kevin's room right next to his bed. Let's
Kevin climb all over him, to a point.  Loves to kiss him.  Sits so close, that
sometimes Mick knocks Kevin off his small chair.  During thunder storms, Mick
will break down gates or anything to get up to Kevin's room or be with him and
us.  

However, it wasn't always that way.  It took alot of time.  When Kevin was an
infant we never left him alone with the dogs, for his protection.  These dogs
are BIG over 90 pounds each.  I don't think they would ever intentionally hurt
a baby, but they are animals.  When he was a toddler, we never left him alone 
with the dogs, for the dogs protection.  Now, we let them all outside to play.
In fact, Kevin doesn't want to go outside unless the dogs are with him.  
The dogs, especially Mick, stay right with him in the yard. 

When I was pregnant, we obtained a booklet from the vets on introducing your 
new baby to your dog and followed the steps recommended.  These steps were 
very helpful and worked for us.  It's been alot a work but worth it.

As soon as Kevin was old enough, we began teaching Kevin and the dogs how to
interact with each other.  We let Kevin give the dogs their afternoon 
treats when we got home from work.  Each time he gave a treat, we said "Here's
your TREAT, EASY " to each dog.  This allowed us to help distinguish when Kevin 
had a treat for them or a cookie for himself.  The reason for this was, at 
first Molson would come over and take Kevin's cookie, thinking it was a treat 
for her. Now, he helps feed the dogs their dinner, by putting their dishes 
down on the dogs' placemats each night.  We taught him never to go near the 
dogs when they are eating.  Taught him how to pat, scratch and hug them.  

Anytime, Kevin tried to sit, poke or whatever the dogs he was removed from the
dogs.  I think the dogs trusted, that we would insure that Kevin would
never harm or hurt them.  Basically, we're continually teaching Kevin to 
respect other living animals through our actions.  

We've had acouple of incidents where Kevin got scratched or knocked down.  
Kevin's been scratched when the dogs tried to push him away with their paw 
when he tried to stand or sit on them or if one of the dogs tried to give him a 
paw to shake.  In the three years we've only had two growlings from Molson
when Kevin made a running leap and dove onto her like she was a pillow.  She 
growled, jumped up and ran away from him.  Both Kevin and the dog were 
disciplined, Kevin for hurting the dog and Molson for growling.
     
Being consistent in our actions of what our expectations and rules are for
both Kevin and dogs I believe has been the key.  It takes alot a work, but
when I see Kevin and the dogs outside playing I know it's well worth the effort.

Excuse the rambling...

Best of luck,


Pat K., Kevin, Mickey & Molson

    I had a 1 year old cat when my daughter arrived home.  When we arrived
    in the house I had my husband holding our new daughter and I
    immediately went over to Tiffany and held her and hugged her.  We
    walked over to my daughter and let Tiffany sniff her.  Whenever the
    baby cried Tiffany would just run away.  She didn't eat for over 3
    weeks and just seemed to be very depressed.  I read an article
    regarding having pets and children - and the #1 question that stuck in
    my mind was "Can you trust your pet?"  I answered no as she was very
    spoiled and fresh - she was they type of cat while you walked she would
    tackle you and bite your leg....  After we answer NO we cannot trust
    our pet we gave Tiffany away...  After a month of crying over it we
    were very happy we did afterwards.  The thought of anything happening
    to baby just wasn't worth it for us.  

    re.13
    Marcia,
    	Funny you should mention the cockie's voice.  As you know, it can be
    very piercing, and Bubba's cage is right outside David's room. However,
    I never made a point of keeping quiet while he was sleeping, and indeed
    he can sleep through the dogs barking and Bubba yelling.  Yesterday Mom
    was babysitting and kept running to check on David while he was
    supposed to be sleeping.  She was convinced she heard him yelling...you
    guessed it, it was Bubba imitating his cry!  The only time we have a
    problem with Bubba waking him up is if Bubba falls off his perch in
    the middle of the night.  Since birds can't see in the dark, he starts
    to scream, flails around in the cage trying to get his bearings, and
    generally makes a riiot of noise.  In a silent and dark house, it
    usually startles David and wakes him up, so I have to settle both DAvid
    and the bird down.
    Sarah
    

    I have the opposite problem with our cat than Kathryn does in .0!  Our
    cat (6 yrs old) for some reason has become a complete "schmata" (for
    non-Yiddish speakers, a limp dishrag!).  When Marc sees her, he crawls
    excitely over, and proceeds to flop down on her, slap his hands all over
    her body, grab handfuls of hair, etc., and the cat just lays there!  
    Sometimes she'll get up, walk 2 feet away, and lay down again.  If she
    really didn't want him to do this, she could very well go to another
    part of the house!  
    
    Marc seems to treat her like one of his stuffed animals!  He really 
    loves playing with her, but I'm getting worried that I should teach 
    him the proper way to pet an animal.  I don't want him to hurt the cat, 
    or vice versa.  It's pretty hard for him to gently use his hands,
    though.  When he's excited, he always slaps things!

    re: -1
    
    I love it, Deb!  I can picture Marc doing this...
    
    - K

    
    re .17
    
    My cats are mighty mellow too. But I had to teach my daughter
    from the start how to treat animals right, since my sitter
    had cats that were not as "friendly". I didn't want her to
    get hurt by other people's cats or dogs.
    
    
    Eva.

    People seem to have so much grief with kids and dogs.  Its quite
    unnecessary, if you understand dog psychology and follow good training
    guidelines.
    
    Our dog is excellent with babies and toddlers, indeed with all people. 
    These are the guidelines we followed:
    
    - Get a puppy well before you get pregnant.  Puppy should be at least 1
    year old when baby is born.  This gives you time to train puppy.  Allow
    plenty of time to work with the puppy for the first 12-18 months.
    
    - Train puppy rigorously.  Get a good book on training and follow it to
    the letter.  Don't let the dog get away with anything.
    
    - Train dog to allow you to 
        a.  Pull its tail, ears, paws poke, prod, and gently slap it
        b.  Put your hand in its mouth, touch its eyes
        c.  Put your hand in its feedbowl while it is feeding (dog should
            stop or eat around your fingers)
        d.  Remove food from its mouth both with and without the command
            "LEAVE IT"
     
    - Train dog to take treats from your hand very gently.  When baby gives 
      food to the dog, you don't want the dog to snap and scare the baby.  
    
    - Train dog to sit or lie down well away from the table while you are
      eating.  This will prevent the dog from lurking under the highchair.
      You will have to order the dog away, but it will follow your orders.
    
    - Give the dog its own chew toys such as NylaBone, rope tug, hoofs.
    
    - Breeding is the least-important factor.  Do select for a gentle
    temperment.  Almost any dog can be trained this way.  Avoid getting an
    outdoor dog to keep indoors, if the breed needs a lot of exercise.
    
    - When introducing the dog to the baby, first bring home a garment
    which the baby has worn.  Let the dog sniff.  When bringing baby in the
    first time, have Dad carry baby, and Mom pay plenty of attention to
    dog.  Continue to be sensitive to dog's need for affection.  Do not
    ignore the dog when caring for the baby.  People who readily understand
    sibling rivalry in a child, are mystified when their pet acts the same
    way.
    
    If you are very rigourous and thorough in training your dog, you will
    have an excellent, trustworthy companion for people of all ages.  I
    know this because we did it and are happy with the results.
    
    Laura    
    
    

    
    We haven't trained our dog too much, but were very lucky with him.
    
    "Sonny" loves kids, so we knew he would probably be great with our
    new baby. Of course, when we brought Chris home from the hospital,
    my husband carried the baby, and I went in first. This was because
    Sonny hadn't seen me in 3 days, and wanted to greet me! Once I
    was greeted, my husband brought the baby in. We let Sonny sniff him,
    which sometimes got a little rough, since he is a big dog and can
    push hard with his nose. He eventually settled down, and for the
    first few weeks followed us around wherever we brought the baby.
    
    When Chris cried, the dog would look at us like he was saying, "Will
    you shut that thing up, I'm sleeping!" 
    
    Now that Chris is about 11 1/2 months old, him and the dog get along
    great. We've been lucky with Sonny, he puts up with alot from Chris.
    Chris loves to crawl over him, and pounce on him. Sonny puts up with
    it and will even start licking Chris to get him to move. We make sure
    that Chris doesn't hurt him, and that Sonny doesn't appear to mind.
    If Sonny seems to be in a bad mood, we just move Chris away! He has
    never done anything to make us think that he would harm Chris, and
    he is a very loving dog!!
    
    You have to remember, that you don't only have to train your dog,
    but should train your child as well to be kind to the pet!!
    
    Sheila
    

    I'm not sure how close this relates, but we had a cat about 6 years
    before we had AJ.  She absolutely refused to be anywhere near him, and
    still avoids him several years later.  The closest I came to
    interaction between them was that the cat would sleep on the rocker in
    his room, but the minute he started to move around, the cat would come
    and sit on the solid edge of the waterbed and purr loudly! (until I
    woke up) but of course I was up and awake with his first wimper anyway.  
    
    Kind of funny, last year we adopted a kitten-only a matter of weeks
    old, and she seemed to have the same attitute...sibling rivaly-feline
    style?...  The kitten is now over a year old, and although they do play
    together occationally, you can almost see the older cat saying "go away
    kid you bother me!"
    Funny how sound we sleep UNTIL the baby comes along!