Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Carol,
    
    I don't have any advice for bottle at bed time.  I never gave
    Eric a bottle at bed time so I didn't have the problem.
    
    About the amount of sleep that Jason is getting, I think is
    adquate.  When Eric was at Jason's age, he slept from 9-6
    and had 1 hour nap in the morning and 1 hour in the afternoon.
    He dropped his morning nap around 1 year old.  Now, at 2, he
    sleeps from 10-7 and takes a 1 hour nap in the afternoon.
    He is about to drop his afternoon nap.  I wish he won't, I
    can't handle him from 7-10 without a break.
    
    About nighttime waking.  Eric also had this problem.  I think
    you just have to stop giving him the bottle.  At 10 month, he
    doesn't need the extra feeding and you do want to avoid it
    becoming a habit.  When they grow older, they sleep better,
    they will wake up less in the middle of the night.
    
    Wendy

    What your friends' babies need for sleep isn't necessarily what your
    son needs.  His schedule sounds fine -- he may indeed sleep a little
    longer once he gives up one nap, or simply consolidate the 2 naps into
    one.
    
    Like .1, I never got in the habit of putting Ryan to bed with a bottle,
    mostly out of fear of tooth decay and ear infections.  He does,
    however, go to sleep with a pacifier.  
    
    I'm surprised you didn't find Ferber's book more helpful - I've heard
    of its success, and non-drastic approach, from so many people.
    
    As for whether children sleep through the night..... although my son
    (now 2) has been basically doing so since 6 months, at least once every
    2 weeks he has nights of wakefulness.  Part of this depends on how
    soundly YOU sleep.  My husband hears Ryan much sooner and more often
    than I, since he's a light sleeper. I only hear him when he's sick :-).
    
    I would suggest only getting him out of bed as a last resort - and
    definitely try to avoid a middle-of-the-night bottle. Perhaps sips from
    a cup of juice if it's gone on for a while, but I basically try to go
    in, arrange covers and/or rub his back for a minute and leave.  I don't
    mind going in, but I don't want to leave the impression with Ryan that
    I'm there for the night.  I think Ferber and others talk about this -
    kids need to know they're responded to when needed, but also that
    nighttime is sleeptime and that's it.
    
    best of luck. None of this is easy stuff, especially when you've had
    sleepless nights.
    
    

    Lynn and Wendy, 
    
    Thanks for the responses.  You both say that you didn't give your
    boys bottles at bedtime.   This may sound stupid, but HOW do you
    go about putting them down?   Occasionally, Jason finishes his bottle
    and I'm able to put him down and he'll talk himself to sleep.   But 
    most of the time, he either falls asleep while drinking or starts to
    cry, sometimes hysterically, if I lay him down.   The part about 
    Ferber's book that I have trouble doing is letting him cry....5
    minutes of real sobbing seems like an eternity to me!   Maybe I'll
    put him down, leave the house, and let my husband handle it (he
    tolerates the crying better!)
    
    Thanks again,
    Carol

    Maybe try to give him his last feeding earlier, so he won't fall asleep
    while drinking.  Marc usually gets cranky/sleepy about 8, so I give him
    his last bottle about 7:30.  Then we go upstairs, get a new diaper, get
    into p.j.'s, say goodnight to all the stuffed animals (!), occasionally
    I read him a story, then I just put him down, kiss him goodnight and
    just walk out.  9 times out of 10, he rolls around a bit, hugs the teddy
    bear that lives in his crib, and is asleep in 5 minutes.  Sometimes he
    cries as soon as I put him down.  I let him cry for about 10 minutes,
    and if he doesn't fall asleep, I pick him up (my one concession), walk
    around a bit and try it again.  This usually works.  
    
    Marc is 9 months, and I've been trying to follow this same routine for
    the last 3-4 months.  

    What I did, right from the start (which doesn't help you now, but it
    might!) is set up a "bedtime routine" for David (now 7 months old). 
    Regardless of the time we follow the same ritual, NEVER VARY, so he
    knows it's bedtime.  He eats his dinner, plays for 1/2 hour, has a
    bath, plays again for 1/2 hour, then it's into bed.  I give him his
    blanket (an old cloth diaper with satin stitched all around), wind up
    his music box, and off he goes.  We recently went camping with him and
    we did not vary this routine.  Tough on Mom and Dad, who would have
    loved to take him out for a late night stroll on the beach, but that
    would have interrupted his pattern and we would have paid dearly for
    it.  One thing I have noticed is that rght after having a bottle or
    food he perks right up.  Must be a rush of energy from the fuel. If I
    try to put him down right away he flips out.  But give him 1-1/2 hours
    after a meal or bottle, and he's calm, even sleepy.  If he wakes up in
    the middle of the night I go in, tell him I'm there, hand him his
    blanket and wind up his music box again, and leave.  He gets the point
    that it isn't time to get up yet, and either falls back to sleep
    immediately or chats with him bumper pads for a while then conks out.
    It might help to try to develop a pattern now, and try not to vary it.
    The time varies sometimes...maybe dinner is at 5:00, maybe at 7:00
    depending on how our day progresses, but the pattern remains the same.
    Sarah
    

    Thanks again for the responses.  I will try to stick to a better
    routine as that seems to be what people are most commonly suggesting.
    Funny thing, we have "friends" who have implied that our existing
    routine is too rigid (i.e. we won't do things with them if it
    interferes with Jason's existing schedule), that he would "learn"
    to be more flexible if we would just do what we'd like to do when
    we'd like to do it, etc.
    
    cj/

    Do those "friends" have infants??  Everything I've read and seen tells
    me that schedule is critical!  If we upset Marc's schedule the
    slightest bit (like keep him up later than usual, skip a nap, etc.),
    he's all messed up for days.  I think a 9- or 10-month old figures out
    how things are supposed to be by observing the same pattern over and
    over.  When he gets older, you can be more flexible.  Of course, this
    is a pain for parents, but the payoff is a full night's sleep :-))

    Carol,
    We have 3 kids under the age of 5, and they were all VERY different,
    but we did some things the same. We never put any of them down with a
    bottle, predominantly because of fear of tooth decay ("bottle-mouth" I
    believe its called). But they all took a pacifier. We tried to find one
    that would feel to the child like the nipple of the bottle...eg. a
    Playtex pacifier when using a Playtex bottle. If they fell asleep while
    nursing or while taking a bottle, we'd take the bottle out and slide
    the pacifier in. Worked for them every time. The other thing you might
    try, if the pacifier doesn't work, is to just give him a bottle with
    water instead of juice/formula. Won't cause any tooth problems, and
    might be an aceptable compromise to him.
    BTW, our kids were of two diff. types about going to sleep. Josh, our
    eldest, would not go down unless he was already asleep. The same for
    Carrie, our daughter. They had to be SOUND asleep before you laid them
    down or they'd cry forever (Well, Josh did cry on and off,several
    times, for several hours. We'd go in, rub his back, give him a hug, and
    leave again. We never "gave in" and got him up, and he still cried for
    hours till he fell sound asleep from exhaustion). We always felt
    guilty, cause all the books, etc. say not to do that. Lay the baby down
    when he/she is tired and let them get themselves to sleep, It just
    never worked...until they were about 1 year or so, and then they would
    do that. Imagine our surprise when Daniel was just like the "books"
    said....he'd get tired, we'd lay him down, and he'd be sound asleep in
    moments. On the rare occasion he cried, it would only last 4-5 minutes.
    We NEVER got a child up in the nite when they cried (unless there was
    known or noticeable illness, fever, etc.), but would go in, talk to
    them, sing to them (my wife, not me :-)  ), rub their backs, give them
    a hug, etc.  But no bottles or getting up. I should clarify that a bit.
    We never got them up when they cried *after* they were old enough to give 
    up a middle of nite feeding, or after they'd been sleeping through for
    a reasonable period of time (For Josh, he slept through at 8 weeks,
    Carrie at 2 weeks, Daniel at 1 � weeks...we realize this is a bit out
    of the ordinary :-)  ).
    A definite schedule is good, but some children ARE more flexible than
    others. We were never so rigid that we didn't interrupt those schedules
    once in a while for special evening stuff, but our kids were easy
    going. Others I know would not have tolerated it. Try setting up a
    definite schedule, sticking to it until he's doing consistently well
    with it, and then, if you feel like it, try varying it if something
    special comes along. If he can't tolerate it....well, at least you'll
    know that in the future. If he can, you'll know you can be a bit
    flexible when necessary.
    Good luck...sorry to ramble, but 3 kids who are all diff. can give a
    good perspective on things, I think!
    
    --dave--
    the nite feeding 

Your son's schedule is almost exactly like our son's.  And the same sleep
problems too.

About 15 months our pedi strongly suggested loosing the bottle.  For about
two weeks it was hard at bedtime.  Basically we did the Penelope Leach
method of putting him down, getting him quiet (patting his back, humming,
etc.), and then leaving.  The first two weeks it usually took us going back
in every 5--10 minutes for an hour.  He'd cry and cry, we'd go in, settle
him and leave then he'd cry again.  But, all of a sudden one day it was
o.k., like he knew the program now.  We still have to settle him for a good
10 minutes before leaving the room the first time, and sometimes have to go
back in, but only once.

The middle of the night stuff we do the same (back in every 5--10 min.). 
And without fail, if we give in and pick him up, rock him, or give him a
bottle, the next night it's worse.  So its just going in again and again
and again, giving him 5--10 minutes alone inbetween.  Its hard sometimes,
and some nights we do just give in and rock him back to sleep, but we know
the consequences!

Boy do I envy those folks with 7-7 sleepers!


Marty

    Carol:
    
    JA and Jason's age and sleeping schedules are IDENTICAL!
    
    The only differences I can see is:
    
    .  we also DON'T (and never did) allow bottles "in the crib"
    .  "I" (probably more than JA!) need some quiet time "together" in
       the evening before the day ends.  Since she was a newborn, I
       have always reserved 30 minutes for nursery rhymes, songs and
       lots of cuddles (with a bottle!) in Daddy's overstuffed rocker.  
       When she was real little, she was very cooperative and enjoyable.
       Now, at 10 months, some QT's are more enjoyable THAN OTHERS!  But
       I just can't let go of this ritual and I believe it IS this ritual
       which is somewhat preparing her for the crib.
    .  usually she's "on her way out" within 15-30 minutes and then the
       transition to her crib is very easy  (yes, we may regret this!)
    .  she "used to" sleep through the night - until she cut her last tooth
       and had an ear infection and bronchitis (2-3 weeks ago).  Now she's
       been getting up at 2 am "5 out of 7" nights.  Awwwggh!  Jim/I are
       taking turns rocking her (usually only takes 15-20 minutes for her
       to dooze off again and back in the crib).   This is one of the many
       things we've EATTEN OUR WORDS ON!, but it just seems so much easier
       on Jim/I/JA to sacrifice 15-20 minutes of "fairly quiet time" vs.
       1 hour of hard crying!  I'm hoping as JA gets older we can "reason"
       with her, or by then we'll be more hardened or "fed up" and more
       easily resort to tolerating the crying.
    
    I'm not too worried about the bottle-before-bedtime becoming a habit
    for two reasons.  First, JA doesn't REQUIRE it and usually only drinks
    an ounce or two before the ZZZ's set in.  Secondly, JA would much
    rather drink from a training cup than a bottle (we use bottles because
    it's EASIER for us!  Less mess and more transportable!  If JA goes to
    kindergarten with a bottle it will be because of MOMMY/DADDY, not JA!).
    Also, when she does waken during the night, "most times" she'll go back
    to sleep with a little rocking (no bottle).  Jim/I are going to resort
    to a "water" bottle for night wakenings (vs. milk).
    
    I used to feel "guilty" that Jim/I might be spoiling JA re: bedtime
    habits and then I thought "can WE live with this?"  Jim/I sat down and
    talked about the pros/cons and potential problems and decided that it's
    OK for US!  We CAN NOT listen to her scream her brains out until she
    gets the hickups and then sobs for another 30 minutes (some folks can
    -- but we can't).  If a little rocking, a little singing, some hugs and
    kisses (8 pm and 2 am) helps, well then if we can tolerate it, cope
    with it, and not be worried about it ... then fine!
    
    As for solving the problem, I sure don't have any answers!! 
    
    Good luck.  If you find a solution I am DEFINATELY interested (short
    of Brandy!).
    
    Dottie
    

    re: .7
    
    Deb,
    
    Yes, these friends have an infant just about Jason's age.  HOWEVER,
    their baby is the most incredibly laid-back infant that I have ever
    seen (babies sure have unique personalities, even at this age).
    Of course, they believe that the baby is so flexible because of 
    their "style".
    
    Oh well, off the subject....
    
    cj/

    I had a similar experience this weekend with my 17 month old. We were
    visiting my parents this weekend and with all of the excitment I was
    having trouble following the bedtime patterns especially naptime
    patterns. I don't know what others do but I tend to do a modified
    version of the night time routine for naptimes. I also tend to let the 
    naptime vary depending on when she looks like she is ready for it.
    
    Well this weekend, the resistance to naptime was high (cousins, cats,
    etc.) I put her in the crib, pat on the back etc. She stood up
    immediately, hands reaching out and crying/screaming (loud wailing
    type) at the top of her lungs. I left the room leaving the door open
    slightly and thought I should bring her a bottle since we were in a
    strange place. My sister stopped me and told me to wait a few minutes.
    Sure enough it had to have been less than 5 minutes and she had
    stopped.
    
    My sister is a firm believer in this method because her oldest had
    this problem and that method worked for her in three nights. Each night
    they lengthened the time before they went to his crib. And they always
    marked the time on the clock. The time seems to last forever when your
    baby is crying.
    
    
    I also tend to think that when kids are keyed up for some reason, the
    crying is a method of release.
    
    If you can get your son to go to sleep on his own, it would help with
    your middle of the night problem too. My daughter wakes up occasionally
    as well and usually it's because she kicks off her covers and gets
    cold.
    
    Good Luck, Jan

    I honestly don't believe that bedtime rituals spoil children. In fact I
    believe the opposite.  Everything I read ( and I've got little
    experience with kids before having my son) suggests that kids need some
    structure, and a bedtime routine is part of that structure.  It helps
    kids "organize" themselves - I truly believe that.
    
    You asked how I get him to go down without giving a bottle -- ever
    since we brought him home from the hospital 2 years (!) ago, we've had
    a bedtime ritual. It used to include a bath, but not every night now. 
    The last thing we do is sit and rock in his room, with the nightlight
    on. Could be 1 minute, could be 15, depends on how sleepy Ryan is, or
    how pooped I am.  There have been many a night when Ryan sits up and
    points at the crib to go night-night! rather than sit and rock some
    more.
    
    The most important thing, as you know from Ferber, etc. is to put him
    to bed sleepy but awake. Kids honestly need to learn to put themselves
    to sleep.    Penelope Leach discusses this as well in her book - and
    she makes a very good point, i.e., you can choose to put your child to
    bed asleep but look at the pros and cons of it (when/if they wake, they
    need you to go back to sleep, etc.).  She doesn't make the decision for
    you - just points out what you need to be willing to live with.
    
    By the same token, if your "friends" think you're too rigid, then they
    can be relieved that you're not raising their kids. What works for you
    doesn't always work for someone else.  I personally prefer to keep
    Ryan's bedtime intact - if we go out, we're home by 7:15 and he's in
    bed by 7:30 -- it's my choice to do that, since I prefer him keeping to
    our morning schedule etc.  And because I also believe that the every
    day structure is important.
    
    Best of luck -- if you have a hard time with waiting 5 minutes before
    going back in for a back rub, set the kitchen timer, or stand in front
    of the clock.  I've done it many a time!
    
    Lynn
    

    Re .10, Dottie
    
    You mentioned that JA now awakens 5 out of 7 nights, since having been
    sick a few weeks ago. This is real typical for babies, during the
    second half of the first year. As a matter of fact, that's how Ferber
    and others believe many sleep problems develop, since a child learns
    that they get responded to when they're sick, and sometimes continue
    waking after the illness is gone.
    
    Rather than rocking her, you might consider resettling her (blanket,
    toy, back rub), staying only for a minute, and then go in 5-10 minutes
    later if it continues. Again, it'll let her know you come when needed,
    but that you're not staying during the night, and that she needs to get
    herself back to sleep.  This is very different from having a
    going-to-bed ritual!
    

    It was my experience that a defined structure for the whole evening was
    not very important.  What was important was a non-trivial bedtime
    ritual with a known conclusion: sleep.  Ours was called
    "StorySongandMoon."  After pjs and bed, it started with "story",
    perhaps a nursery ryhme when smallest, later Goldilocks or a book
    story; then, literally, a "song"; then Goodnight Moon (recited from
    memory, no lights on) accompanied by backrubs.  Sleep almost always
    came during or very shortly after the Moon portion.  If it was an early
    to bed night, we might add an extra story and song.  If it was an up
    later night, the story part would be enough.  But the whole ritual had
    SLEEPTIME writ large all over it, and allowed enough time for each kid
    to thoroughly settle down for the night.  The exact content of the
    ritual was unimportant, but it needed to be preditable, increasingly,
    soothing, and, perhaps the same thing, amply boring toward the end.
    
    By the way, never a bottle in bed, though pacifiers were required until
    age 1.5 or 2.*  And after the ritual, the iron clad rule was for
    parents to be as boring as possible.  That's the essense of Penelope's
    (always wonderful) advice: be available for any crisis during the
    night, but as bvoring as can be imagined.
    
    On a related point, RESIST giving up the afternoon nap, just as some
    kids resist taking it.  Aaron's pre-school wisely insisted that
    everyone keep taking naps right up through age 5, and they were better
    off for it.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    * I think Aaron may have been the world champion sucker of his era. 
    While still in the hospital, I could wheel him down the hall from room
    to nursery or back by just inserting my thumb in his mouth and pulling
    him along.  He would suck so hard on his binky it would sometimes go
    flying across the room on the rebound.  We had to keep a t-shirt
    stuffed through the handle to prevent it from going into orbit.  This
    later proved valuable for a number of other reasons, and became a
    permanent habit.

    re: pacifiers
    
    lots of folks recommending them....but, sorry, he just won't take
    one and i've offered 10-15 different types!    also, i almost think
    i'd rather get up one night per week, then have a 5 year old with
    a pacifier in tow (i've seen it and i don't care for it!).

    Eric didn't take a bottle to bed, and he hates pacifier.  He
    never sucks his fingers either.  I personally hates pacifiers
    and thumb sucking and never encourage them.
    
    He did have a bed time routine.  When he was young, that 
    includes a warm bath, a warm bottle, then singing and rocking.
    Then one day, he didn't want to be rocked anymore (about 1
    year old).  The routine became a warm bath and story reading.
    He is off bottle completely when he is 15 months old.  One
    thing we did right at the beginning is not to force him
    going to bed.  Basically, we let him tell us when he is
    ready for bed.  We learned that if he is not sleepy, it will
    take hours to make him fall asleep instead of 5 minutes if
    he is ready.
    
    Wendy

    
    If you are thinking of starting weaning as well...
     
    The one thing I did in terms of learning to give up the bottle
    (may pedi's recommendation was to have him off the bottle by one year)
    was to make sure the night bottle wasn't the last bottle to give up. I
    figured I may never get it away from him if it was the last one left.
    He had a late evening bottle after dinner (usually didn't really want
    it because he was a pretty good eater) about 7:30-8:00 and went to
    sleep about 9:30 after reading some books and singing.
    
    Sounds like you just need to start altering his routine but you'll
    figure out what works best for him. If you decide that he will no
    longer have a bedtime bottle, then stick with it no matter what. Also
    don't expect to suddenly change everything at once. He will need a
    gradual transition so pick the changes that are most important to you
    right now (seems like it was getting him to bed settled and without
    needing the bottle to do it).
    
    Best of luck. You will get some sleep soon - when they marry!!
    

    How do I convince my friend that she shouldn't go in and pick up her 9
    month old every time he cries during the night?  I've told her all
    about everybody in this file saying to let them cry, go in and reassure
    him that you are there but do not pick him up or give him a bottle,
    etc.  I've got proof that it works with my son.  She seems to think
    that her child is "different" than everybody else, and that to let him
    cry would do him major psychological harm.  She also thinks he crying
    because he's thirsty or hungry, and that he needs a bottle.  This
    mornig she said to me (She's also my babysitter) "you are going to kill
    me, but he got up at 2 AM and I thought he was cold, so I put him into
    something warmer, changed his diaper because he was soaked, and gave
    him a bottle. He went back to sleep at 3 AM ".  My response was "If he
    went back to sleep, guess he was still sleepy.  If you have left him
    alone, he would have gone back to sleep at 2:15 AM!"  I'm considering
    buying the book everybody recommends (Ferber's?), but I don't think she
    will believe that it will work, because he is crying "for a reason".
    Mind you, this baby has been sleeping through the night almost since he
    came home from the hospital, and only started this after waking up one
    night with a stomach virus...3 weeks ago!  I feel so bad for her,
    because she exhausted in the mornings (she's also pregnant, which makes
    these nighttime sojourns worse) and I love her little boy to death and
    wouldn't suggest doing something that would harm him.  Can she be
    convinced?  Sorry about the length...
    
    Sarah
    

    If her own fatigue doesn't convince her, nothing external will.
    Let her do what she wants.
    
    		-John Bishop

    An update on last night:
    
    I tried to implement a routine but it backfired in that I ended
    up giving him a bottle until he fell asleep.   It seems that the
    bottle is the only thing that calms Jason down enough to enable
    him to fall asleep (I know what you're thinking :-))....he was
    absolutely off-the-wall at 8:30 - taking the diaper pail cover 
    on/off, banging it against a chair, laughing and screaming with
    glee.   I was exhausted from the night before so I tried to read
    him a book to unwind.   Read about one page before he started 
    grabbing the book and ripping out the pages.   We ended up laying
    him down, saying nite-nite...he talked to himself for awhile and
    then started screaming.  I waited 5 minutes and went back in and
    calmed him (not picking him up).  The second I left the room he
    went bonkers again to the point of losing his breath and ripping
    the bumper pads off the crib.   He did sleep from 9pm-5:30am, however.
    
    So, Sarah, if you can figure out how to convince your friend, try
    it on me, too!
    
    carol

    I must sound like a broken record, but I would suggest eliminating the
    cause of waking up. My daughter wakes up a night because she gets cold
    as well. Now I put her in footie pajamas. I put her in the top half
    before she goes to bed, then when I go to bed I put on the bottoms
    and sometimes change her diaper and generally make sure she is nice and
    snug. Occasionally we'll still hear her cry out and my husband jumps up
    and covers her again and she back asleep.

    I got up every night with my daughter when she cried.  I'll
    admit I was tired during the day.  But I can say that she does
    sleep through the night now and has for some time (she's 4).
    I couldn't bear to have her cry by herself.  I don't see any
    harm that may have come from this.
    
    If a child is wet and cold, then they need something.  They're 
    not crying to annoy you.  Give them what they need and everyone
    will rest easier.
    
    What is comfortable for mom and child is what is right for them.
    No one would have convinced me to do otherwise either.
    
    Diana

    In re: .23
    
    If a child is woken by some non-transient external cause (e.g. being
    cold), one should, of course, "fix it," preferable real fast, before
    s/he is thoroughly awake.
    
    But that isn't the point.  Everyone, infant to adult, goes through
    natural sleep cycles during the night, and approaches wakefulness more
    than once.  Some kids have trouble returning from light sleep to deep
    sleep on their own; yet this is a skill they _must_ learn.  A parent
    who goes and fusses with them robs them of the opportunity to do so. 
    It may not be of long-term harm to the kids, but learning this skill
    will be postponed for a few months or years, and the parent(s) will
    certainly suffer.  And it is no favor to the kid.
    
    		- Bruce

    To the basemoter - I too have a ten month old who will only go to bed
    with a bottle.  I know it isn't good for his teeth but it's the only
    thing that will lull him to sleep.  Lataely I've been breaking him to
    the cup, but the nighttime bottle is always the last to go because it
    gives him so much comfort.  After having been through this with three
    other children, I know how this goes.
    
    So my solution is to give him his bottle but fill it with water.  He
    gets the bottle as part of his winding down in the evening.  Whatever
    is left undrunk by bedtime is emptied, be it juice milk or whatever,
    the bottle is rinsed out and filled with water.  He now knows this is
    the routine and even though he doesn't like water much, he'll drink it
    because he truly needs to suck on something in order to go to sleep. 
    Like your son, mine never liked the pacifier.
    
    As for middle of the night wakeups, these are true judgement calls and
    depend on what YOU are willing to take.  For me, I have three other
    kids.  I can't take much middle of the night nonsense, it just wears me
    down too much.  What one of the other noters said was so true, I could
    really relate - be as boring as possible.  Don't make it too rewarding
    for him to waken in the night.  Leave the lights off, pick him up, pat
    him on the back, resettle him, and leave.  Don't talk, don't make a
    fuss.  If he cries let him go a few minutes, go in repeat the routine. 
    I may be tough but unless there's something wrong like illness, you
    have to help them sleep on their own. My opinion.
    
    My son goes to bed at 8:30, wakens anywhere between 6 and 7 generally. 
    Though I often go in to get him in the morning and find him quietly
    playing with his crib toys, and keeping himself amused.  By the way do
    you have crib toys the kind that attach to the side of the crib that
    has different things the baby can turn, move a little mirror etc? (I
    forget what you call them!)  Somtimes once the child finds out what
    these are they can really keep them occupied and quiet.
    

    Carol,
    
    The end will come.  It seems like just yesterday that I wanted to enter
    the same note into this file.  Samantha is 19 months now but has only
    been sleeping through the night for 4 months or so.
    
    I tried the Bedtime routine.  Dinner 5:30-6:00. Bath at 7:30. Play time
    til 8:00 then Story or movie (with her last bottle) then off to bed at
    8:30.  This didn't work.
    
    Finally I decided to do several things.  #1 I decided that I would let
    her give me signals of when she was tired.  I have been trying to
    comform her to a schedule I thought she should be on, and really not
    considering whether or not she was tired.  #2 I would let her have her
    last bottle at 8:00 but would take a bottle of water up when she
    decided she was tired and put the bottle of water in her crib with her.
    
    I was amazed at how much better the evenings were.  She spent more time
    up but putting her down was so much easier and when she awoke in the
    night she would find the bottle of water take a couple sips and put
    herself back to sleep.
    
    Her current schedule is dinner between 5:30-6:30 then bath at 7:45-8:00
    play time with last bottle 8:00-9:30 bedtime at 9:30-9:45.  There is no
    fussing, no crying there have been nights that she has actually headed
    for the stairs earlier because she was tired.
    
    I don't know if this is the correct approach, but it has worked for us. 
    Samantha seems to be adjusting quite well.  I usually have to wake her
    up in the mornings at 8:00.
    
    Try what works for you, there is an end to these sleepless nights.
    Cheryl

    I've been hesitant to add an update because I'm afraid it will
    be a "curse" on our progress....but i'll knock on wood as i type!
    
    We have had NO nite-waking for two straight weeks now!  We made a 
    couple of basic changes to our routine that I think have helped
    us get this far.   First, as one of the earlier replies suggested,
    we moved up the night bottle by 1/2 hour or so.   He gets the first
    half of the bottle in the tv room and it is followed by some 
    play time.   When the fussiness sets in, we put his pajamas and
    nightime diaper on (he gets his bath every day at daycare) and 
    finish up the rest of his bottle in the rocker in his bedroom
    (i.e. quiet).    He usually finishes the second 1/2 of the bottle
    without falling to sleep.   The second change is that we are now
    laying him down when he is sufficiently tired but not quite asleep.
    He talks, plays with the stuffed animals, and rolls around for
    10-15 minutes after being laid down and then off to sleep he goes!
    The key for us is that he MUST be ready for bed or he will stand up
    and scream, but so far, so good.
    
    Thanks for all the advice,
    Carol

    It was so nice to read all replies on putting the darlings to bed at
    night, seriously!! :-)  With AJ it seemed he would just get into a
    routine of sleeping through the night when he ended up in the hospital
    for one of his many stays/sugeries.  We all know the hopital is NOT the
    place to rest.  In any case, one of my fondest recollections was giving
    him his bedtime bottle while rocking him to sleep.  I felt that after
    being away from him for so much of the day it was nice to have some one
    on one time, cuddling and rocking.  By the time he really slept
    through, he must have been almost 2!  What I started doing was putting
    a bottle of plain water within reach, he'd wake up enough to find it
    take a few sips and out like a light again.  In the morning if we could
    sleep late (weekends) I'd get up and rock him again with a bottle and he'd
    be out again for a couple more hours.  Even now at 3.5 he still enjoys
    being rocked to sleep, or just some pre-bed rocking time occationally. 
    Rocking is still a given when he's hurt or not feeling well.
    
    Just a quick sidenote AJ has Asthma, one of the things we HAD to do
    everynite at bedtime was a breathing treatment by inhaler, using an
    oxygen mask for the mist.  Very seldom was he ever awake at the end of
    the treatment.  Again some great "together" time.  I too remember
    asking if he would ever sleep through the night!!
    
    Good Luck
    Lyn
    

Matthew is 14 months now.  He's always been such an easy baby, everyone
    has told us how easy we have it with him.  He's been sleeping through
    since he was 1 month, he's very rarely cranky or whiney...generally
    a very content little man.
    
    All of a sudden, WHAMO !!  For the past week we haven't been able
    to get him to bed at all.  I have tried the recommended "5-10-15"
    method where you put him to bed, let him cry for 5 minutes, go in
    to comfort him and leave repeating this procedure for 10 and 15
    minutes.  All it's done is make him more upset.  After the 15 minute
    jag, I couldn't take it anymore....he'd almost made himself sick
    !  So, my husband and I have been taking him into our bed to get
    him to sleep and then transferring him to the crib later.  Oh, by
    the way, he's also been waking up at 3:30am everymorning (and not
    going back to sleep!)  In addition to all this, he's been very cranky
    during the day.
    
    I took him to the doctor's yesterday, but he's not sick.  The doctor
    said he may be getting his molars, but I don't see any redness or
    eruptions in the back of his mouth.  
    
    Does this sound like typical molar behavior ?  Has anyone had a
    spurt of behavior like this ?  Oh PLEASE tell me it's temporary.
    I hate seeing the little guy this miserable and I'm so tired I could
    cry !

    Definitley sounds like my kids. When they were in the throes of
    teething they had alot of episodes like this. Especially with molars
    because about 4-6 of them came in at a time!
    
    Try giving him some Tylenol 15 minutes before you put him down,
    and maybe rock him a little to comfort him. The Tylenol really worked
    with my kids.
    
    Dot

    Are you in New Hampshire?  I've noticed a lot of cranky kids who
    can't sleep around here lately because of the prolonged spell of
    high humidity and hotter-than-average nights.  (Like mine
    10-month-old, who appears to be getting his eyeteeth in as well..)
    
    I learned this watching the Weather Channel:  People don't realize
    that weather like this, which isn't obviously a heat wave and is
    really rather pleasant if you don't have to work hard in it, can
    have a cumulative effect that's just as bad as a record-breaking
    heat wave.  It just takes a little longer to get to you.  So where
    you'd be aware that everybody was crabby and tired after a couple
    of days of 96-degree weather, you don't notice the weather as a
    factor when it's only been 5-10 degrees above normal, even if it's
    been that way for most of a month.
    
    --bonnie

    *Everything* at your son's age is temporary! Yes, it will change,
    and you may never know the real reason for this behavior. My son
    went through several stages like your son's - sometimes I had a
    theory and sometimes not. Sounds like you're handling it very well.
    Hang in there, this is a tough age.
    
    Lucy

    Hi Kath!
    
    How's the new job?  Mathew's behavior sounds normal to me, but
    then you know how often Sam slept with me and Mike at night, and
    he was older than Matt!
    
    This to will pass - don't ya just hate it when people tell you 
    that! 8^)  But you know I'm a firm believer in doing what ever
    it takes to make sure that you, Rick and Matt all get a good nights
    sleep.  They won't sleep with you forever - regardless of what you
    may think.  I think Sam was just about Matt's age, and I was in
    Hawaii with my mom and sister when Mike decided he HAD TO SLEEP
    and let Sam sleep with him at night!
    
    Good luck!
    
    Kathy
    
    PS - Remember my complaining about the devil baby from hell and you
         thought I was terrible!

Michelle started sleeping from 6:30 pm to 6:00 am (with me waking her at 10 pm 
for a feeding) at 2 mos old and I was pleasantly surprised.  This went on for 2
weeks and then everything changed.  Suddenly, she started waking up at night 
and I assumed she was resuming the need for her 2 am feeding which I gave her.  
But sometimes it would happen at 3:30 am or 4:30 am and that would mess up her 
feeding schedules during the day, not to mention frustrate me because I was 
back to getting no sleep.

Well I thought I was going to have to live with it when about a week ago (3 mos 
old) it got worse.  Now her day naps were also messed up.  She would sleep an 
hour, be up an hour, sleep an hour, be up an hour and this would continue until 
early evening.  I was going crazy!

I finally called the doctor's office and talked to a nurse.  She asked me if I 
was rocking Michelle to sleep.  I said sometimes yes.  She said I needed to be 
consistent in the way I put her to bed and that she was probably getting 
conditioned to only go to sleep by being rocked by me.  I was surprised that a 
baby this young could have this problem, but obviously she does.

So day before yesterday I started conditioning her to sleep on her own.  Yes 
it's hard listening to the crying.  But I set the kitchen timer and don't go in 
unless she screaming bloody murder and then it's only to put her pacifier in 
her mouth.  I don't talk to her, I don't touch her.  I guess I make her think 
she's getting it herself somehow.  By the way, I only put her down when I KNOW 
she's sleepy.  She'll rub her eyes and lay her head on my shoulder when I hold 
her and act a little cranky.  So if she cries, I know she's not telling me 
she's not tired.  She does cry though for anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes.

One thing that helped me to do this.  The nurse said Michelle will feel better 
knowing she can get herself to sleep and will also feel better knowing her bed 
is a place of comfort, not a place to be away from Mommy.  Another thing that 
helps me is what Dr. T. Berry Brazelton says.  Michelle is her own person, not 
an extension of me.  I need to have confidence in her, that she can do things 
for herself, even if she's only 3-and-a-half months old.  And this is an 
attitude I need to carry on with her as the years go by.

So where are we now?  Last night Michelle slept from 5:30 pm to 6:30 am (with 
her usual me waking her for a 10 pm feeding).  She did wake at 4:30 am but I 
just listened while she grunted and groaned and gave out a few meek little 
cries and fell back asleep.  Then she woke at 5:30 am, crying this time, and I 
went in, put the pacifier in, and she fell immediately back to sleep.  And 
today, she slept from 8-10 am (woke at 9 am but got herself back to sleep) and 
is now on her afternoon nap which started an hour ago and is still going.  So 
far so good.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed and sticking to this game plan.

Kyra

P.S.  Of course, everything will change again next month! and the month after
that, and the month after that...

    Sounds like a good game plan to me. Best of luck
    

    re: .34
    
    why are you waking her up at all for a feeding?  why not just let her
    wake up on her own when she is hungry?
    
    my 5 month old son has been sleeping through the night since he was 8
    weeks (8-12 hrs per night).  I just feed him whenever he wakes up.  He
    is not lacking for food as he is in the 95% for weight and height.
    
    am I missing something?
    

    re .36
    
    I can't speak for .34 but I did the same thing. Around 2 months Ryan
    was on basically a 6, 10, 2 feeding schedule. He'd go to bed at 6/7
    p.m., I'd wake him at 10/11 for a feeding, and HOPE that he'd gradually
    get rid of the 2 a.m. feeding - he did, but it was at age 4 months. We
    eliminated the 10 pm. feeding at 6 months.
    
    FWIW, Spock and others suggest this routine as a way to help babies
    organize their sleep, and lenghten that one sleep period at night....
    
    .36, you're very fortunate (and rare!) to have a baby who slept through
    that early.
    

re: late evening feeding (sorry I know this is a tangent)

My daughter does nurse every four hours on the 6, 10, 2, 6, 10 schedule 
(sometimes it's 7, 11:30, 4, 9:30) and I wake her for the 9:30/10 pm feeding 
to *ensure* she doesn't wake again before the 6 am feeding.  And the times
she has only nursed 3 times in the day I have to wake her for her late
evening feeding because her doctor said she should have at least 4 feedings a 
day at her age.  She is almost 4 months old and has been doing this for almost 
2 months and so now I am working on eliminating the 10 pm feeding.  I am doing 
this according to her doctor and Dr. Spock.  And my daughter is only in the 
40th to 50th percentile on weight so that's another reason I have to wake her 
to feed her -- she needs it.

While I'm here, here's an update on the sleeping issue with Michelle (it's
been about a week):

She goes right to sleep for naps and bedtime (without a whimper!) about
90% of the time and the other 10% she cries for only about a minute or two.
She has been waking up at night about every other night (usually towards about
4 to 5 am) but usually putting the pacifier back in puts her right back to
sleep.  Now if I can just get rid of that pacifier (I'll have the read the
other topics on that one!).

Kyra

    This is my first time as either a reader/noter to this conference. I've
    perused the preceding entries and didn't find anything that helps much
    in our situation.
    
    Jay, our youngest of three just turned 2.  He has a brother age nine
    and sister age 6.
    
    Jay has been always been a night owl...usually getting to bed between
    8:30-9:30.  Over the past few weeks his protests at being put to bed
    are becoming both louder and long.....so long (half hour - two hours
    of screaming/crying) that invariably we "give-in" and take him out of
    his crib and let him join us in the family room. Then he'll either
    hall asleep in our lap or on the floor with his "blankey".
    
    Now, the problem is compounded by his getting up in the middle of the
    night (1:30 - 4:00). He'll stand in his crib and yell to mommy or daddy
    .."I want out".  We've tried letting him yell/cry himself back to sleep
    but he will continue (for an hour or more) until he's picked and joins
    mommy and daddy in their bed (I know.....a big NO-NO); once he's joined
    mom and dad he'll settle down and go to sleep. Now the problem is further
    compunded that we can't just ignore his protests....last night he climbed 
    out of his crib and proceeded to pound his fists on his bedroom door...
    still protesting that he "wants out". Since our bedrroms are "upstairs"
    theres now the concern over his new found freedom!
    
    BTW, Jay does typically nap 1/2-2 hours a day.  However length of nap
    seems to have little impact on his sleep pattern. Yesterday, he had a
    very busy day, lots of outside activities, only napped a half hour
    during a car ride.....fell asleep in the family room at 10:30 in the
    evening and woke up at 1:30 AM to start his protest. At 4:00 AM he made
    his first "escape".
    
    With our other tow children, we were able to "wait-out the storm" and
    eventually they would tire and go back to sleep.
    
    Any suggestions???
    
    Thanks-
    
    Jonathan

    I think you mentioned the cause when you said that finally you give in
    and take him out of his room etc. I believe he knows that if he fusses
    long enough you WILL let him out. As long as there is nothing wrong
    other than his wanting to get out I believe you should hang in there
    and let him fuss until he quits trying. This make take a number of
    nights of listening to it. If he damages things in his room because
    of temper I would treat that as a seperate issue. If he breaks toys,
    remove the toys etc.  The bottom line: He is being rewarded by your
    giving in.  
    
    I repeat again: I assume that there is nothing wrong other than his
    wanting to stay up. Obviously you should not ignore a health or safety
    issue. 
    
    I used the method above to keep Matt under control at bedtime. He
    knows (at 3 yrs old) that with rare exceptions that once he is put
    to bed he is to stay in his room playing quietly if he is not
    ready to go to sleep yet.   Jeff

    RE: .41
    
    You're probably right.......though after two hours of relentless
    screaming, crying, sobbing WE tend to relent on our steadfastness.
    
    The escapes from his crib are a new twist and the crib matress is
    set as LOW as possible and the rail as HIGH as possible. This seems
    to pose a different problem in so far as our being able to ignore
    his "antics"....now we have to be concerned over his safety when he
    climbs out of his crib.  Should we stick with the crib or get him
    a bed so he doesn't hurt himself climbing out of the crib in the dark?
    
    Ah.....those terrible two's !!!!!
    
    JBS

    I think number one would be to truely childproof the room so you don't
    have to keep 'breaking the embargo' by having to check on his safety. 
    If his falling over the high rails of the crib is an issue maybe it
    does make sense to put him into a bed. Some of the things I watched
    for in Matts' room were:
    
    Outlets and switches all covered with no electric cords to rip out.
    
    The curtain pull on the venetian blinds (hanging hazard) 
    
    All chemicals/soaps etc. out of the room. No medicines either.
    
    Breakables such as cute porcelain toys, mirrors removed. 
    
    What Matt has is almost a padded cell. The floor is carpeted and (I
    hope) all the hazards removed.  He has his checked for small pieces
    toys, and things like that but he has to work at getting into trouble.
    
    We do have a child monitor (with covered outlet) in his room so that
    we can hear him at all times.  The tone of the screeching is imporant.
    Its easy to tell if he is mad or hurt by the tone if his voice.
    
    So.... Dad sits downstairs and listens... if he is in trouble which
    is rare I can go rushing up... but temper, I want OUT! stuff falls on
    deaf ears.  Since we have handled bedtime firmly from the start I think
    heknows that prolonged temper crying will fall on deaf ears, so he
    doesn't bother.  
    
    You know, that since I have given you all this advice from 'an ole
    bedtime pro'  Matt will give me HELL going to bed tonight.
    
    I may be coming across to some as heartless... 'how CAN he suggest that
    he just ignore his poor sobbing son?'  Obviously my rigorous regime
    is tempered with judgement and compassion. 
    
    Jeff

    Steven used to do this, too. Changing his bedtime routine helped a
    lot.  We set it up so that he had a time by which he had to be in
    his room, but he could read or play quietly if he wasn't sleepy
    yet.  Most nights he'd go to sleep at around 9:30 or 10 -- still
    does -- and wake up bright and early (6-6:30) the next morning. 
    Sometimes as early as 4:00. 
    
    We found that at 3 years old, he needed barely 8 hours of sleep.
    Taking any nap at all disrupted his sleep cycles totally.  
    
    For Kat, making it so she could get out stopped her from waking up
    and "escaping".  She had a crib whose side lowered in such a way
    that its lower edge made a sort of ladder, which made it quite
    safe for her to climb in and out on her own.  (I couldn't afford a
    bed in those days.)  As soon as I left the side down, she quit
    climbing out and started sleeping through the night.  
    
    Basically, you can't keep them locked up forever.  You have to
    teach them how to cope with the dangers, sometimes from before
    they can really understand the idea of danger.
    
    --bonnie

    Hello all, It's been a few weeks since I've accessed the notesfile.
    My baby is now 6 weeks old and I was wondering if any one had any tips
    for babys sleeping through the night? I know it's probably a silly
    question but maybe you could help. Right now she doesn't go to bed at
    the same time every night. Sometimes 8:30 other nights 9:30 etc...
    But I find her making noises off and on all night and it gets me up
    2 or 3 times just to check on her. She went one whole week without a
    middle of the night feeding, but woke up two nights ago at 2:00 am to 
    eat. Also, she is still in her bassinet. Should i move her to her
    nursery now in her crib? Usually when she does sleep through its not a
    solid sleep, especially for me!! And its anywhere from 6 to 8 hours off
    and on. Any advice?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Sandy 

    Is she near you during the night?  If so, maybe you should move her
    into her own room.  Babies are noisy sleepers.  You need your sleep. 
    She needs to learn to settle herself during the night.  Basically, a
    baby will sleep during the night when their big enough to consume
    enough to last them thrr the night.  For most this is 11 lbs.  She
    should sleep thru the the night consistantly, if she is not ill, unless
    you teach her to wake up by getting her up each time she makes a noise. 
    IF she needs you, she'll let you know in no uncertain terms.
    
    You have to teach her a sleep schedule - bedtime & naptime.  It's hard
    at first.  But, by around 8 or 9 weeks you could be on a regular
    schedule.  It's best to get her to sleep in her own room. I.e., don't
    rock her in the den and then put her down in her own room.
    
    When she 1st rolls over she may not be able to roll back.  Then she
    will
    call (roar) for help.  DON'T pick her up.  Roll her back - smile - coo
    - pat her back - give her her favorite crib toy - then LEAVE the room.
    She will teach herself to settle her self.
    
    If you help her learn bad sleep habits, you may reach the point where
    you will go to a sleep disorder clinic and pay big bucks for their
    help.
    They will tell you pretty much the same as I.  I know people who have
    gone this route.
    
    It's hard not to pick up your baby every time she seems to ask for it.
    During the day I held my daughter a LOT.  But at night I felt that she 
    needed to learn how to sleep well.  I'm glad I did.  We all ended up 
    happy and healthy.  It was only 3 weeks between the time that she first
    slept through the night until she slept consistantly and well through
    the night.  Sometimes she would wake all the way up - but she would
    play and then go back to sleep without calling me.  I kept a night
    light on in her room so she wasn't afraid of the dark.. It doesn't
    disturb her sleep.  At one point she would wake up thirsty and want
    water.  The fact that by the time she got her water she was all the way 
    awake anoid her.  So I put a bottle of water on her night stand.  If
    she felt thirsty, she would reach for it and then put it back!  This
    blew her pedi away.  But it made her happy.  Between 1 and 2 at the
    time.  ONce she learned to sleep through the night, she didn't want to
    wake up.
    
    Of course, every child is different.
    

    BTW, I forgot to mention, she sometimes goes to sleep with that naasty
    old pacifier! Bad habit i suppose, but i think maybe she gets
    comfortable with it an when it falls out she wimpers. I will try not
    giving it to her at bedtime, but she loves to suck on things as most
    infants do. Also, you mentioed about the 11 pounds, she is just about
    11 pounds now, and eats 6 oz. every four hours, I should give her a
    little more than that berfore bedtime, maybe she will sleep better if
    her belly is fuller.
    
    Thnks for the advice....
    Sandy

    I can well remember the months of wishing that Ryan would sleep
    through. It is indeed true that each baby is different. Try not to
    succomb to the many stories you will hear of babies that slept through
    from the day they were born. Spock firmly believes that no 9 lb. baby
    needs a middle-of-the-night feeding. Apparently my son never read Spock
    :-).
    
    What DOES help though, is to put your baby to bed awake but sleepy.
    Also when and if you get up for a middle-of-the-night feeding, keep it
    boring. Use a night light in the dim room, don't change the baby unless
    they're soaked and/or poopy (yes, babies will do fine til morning in a
    damp diaper); and don't talk or chatter. You want the baby to know that
    mid-night feedings are quick and boring and then it's back to sleep.
    
    best of luck - it'll seem like ages, but it does pass.
    

    p.s.
    Re the pacifier
    
    Ryan was a big sucker from the moment he arrived, and and avidly sucked
    his paci for days on end. At bedtime, I'd let him have it, but then
    pull it out after he'd gone to sleep and leave it near him if he needed
    it during the night. At 2 and 3 months, he still uses a paci in the
    crib.
    
    Do what feels right for you.
    

Just a comment on .46

Babies are so different in their development.  Don't feel that your baby 
"should" or "has to" about sleep anymore than you would feel that way about
walking or talking.  Some kids aren't ready to sleep through the night for 
many months while others do almost from birth.  Some of that depends on other
values you have like whether a pacifier is good or if your child can count on
you for any need 24 hours a day or just when they are supposed to be awake.  And
as I write this, I recognize that some people don't think that a night snuggle
is a need but rather a bad habit.  We all have different ideas and I like to
encourage people to make a free choice rather than do what "everyone" does.  
Having been exposed to people who choose not to set schedules for their below-
school-age kids I know that kids can grow up to have healthy sleep without a
set routine.

And in just my short time of networking with other parents I have come to see
that many kids have sleep disturbances of one sort or another during various 
times of their infancy and toddlerhood.  It appears to me that working through
a period of teething or nightmares is tiring for us adults but worth it for
the child.

Wishing us all a good night with our kids tonight,

=ss

All babies certainly are different!  My son was still waking up at
night @6months and is not a great sleeper @age 2 and 1/2.  Of course
I am a terrible sleeper too, so maybe sleeping through is hereditary?

My daughter is almost 5months old and just started sleeping through the
night this past week.  When she wakes up she sucks her thumb which is
great because we haven't used a pacifier in two months but there are
drawbacks to thumbsucking too....   

Now that Allison is sleeping through I still get up with Stephen once a
week or so. Stephen woke me up at 1:00AM last night and asked if it was 
time to get up yet.  He can't tell if it is morning since it is usually dark 
@6:00 when he gets up.  

Well, I am envious of all you parents with good sleeping children.
Cheers,
Karin

    RE: .40
    
    Thanks for all the input and experience sharing.  We have made 
    significant progross with Jay and can now find that he is pretty
    much sleeping through the night (9:00-6:00) again, sometimes he
    awakens once, to be reunited with his Nuk or blanket.
    
    These are some of the "changes" we adopted, some at the suggestion
    of our pediatrician:
    
    o quiet reading time for half hour before bed-time.  Dr. suggested
      maybe Jay was getting overly "stimulated" by horseplay with ciblings 
      or watching TV.
    
    o we are now leaving a night light on in Jays room....it dimly
      illuminates his room so that he can feel visually "safe"
    
    o in addition to his demanding his special blanket....Jay has
      coicidentally developed an attachment to a stuffed Teddi bear.
      Jay and "Teddy" are read to together and then go to bed together.
    
    o we are trying to limit his naptimes to 1-1.5 hrs. in the early
      afternoon and follow a fairly "regular" nightime schedule.....to
      establish a routine.
    
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Jonathan
    

This has been touched on in previous replies, but I need some 
reassurance here....

Alison is 18 months old and has always been a fairly good sleeper.  
For the last year or more we have had no problems with bedtime and 
for the last six months she has been good about naps too.  The routine
is carry her upstairs, cuddle for a few minutes, hand her her favorite toy 
and comforter, say "night night, sleep time" etc and walk out of the room.
Alison then obligingly goes to sleep ..... well that's what used to happen 
until three days ago.

All of a sudden she decided that she doesn't want to take a nap or go to
bed at bedtime.  The moment we get into her room she starts to cry.  I put
her in her cot and she starts to scream.  I've tried Penelope Leach's 
advice - go back into her room every five minutes, say good night again, 
and go out.  P Leach says this takes about a week to work - I don't know
if I can survive that long!  Last night was the worst.  We had an hour of
going in every five minutes, during which Alison cried so much she made
herself sick.  Eventually my husband decided that Penelope Leach didn't 
to listen to our daughter crying, so he went into Alison room, took her 
out of her cot and rocked her to sleep in his arms.  

I'm not sure what to do for the best.  Should we perseve with the P Leach 
advice?  At the moment, "comforting" Alison every five minutes just makes 
her more angry rather than settling her down.  I HATE doing it, because I 
I can't bear to listen to her crying.  Should we give up and rock her to 
sleep instead?  (we stopped rocking her to sleep about a year ago).  If 
we do that, will she start waking up in the night?  

Some further information:

She has never used a pacifier or needed a bottle to get her off to sleep.
She has never had any problems with teething.  Alison has 16 teeth through
and I can't see any sign of the last four molars.  She doesn't appear to be 
ill - she's very cheerful and lively during the day.  When I try to put her
to bed I know that she IS tired - she displays all her usual "tired" signals.
We haven't changed the bedtime/naptime routine recently.  There have been
no major changes/upsets in our lives recently.

Help, help help !!!

- Janet
     
    

    18 months was about the time that we added slightly to Ryan's routine -
    we started reading 1-2 books, and at 2+ have recently added short
    prayers to the ritual.  Reading the books seemed to lull him somewhat
    into a relaxed state....
    
    Can you ask her what she's upset about?
    
    best of luck
    

    re .53  When we went through the not wanting to go to bed routine, we
    had the same problem as you did.  If we kept going in it only made
    matters worse.  You can only take advice so far and you know your own
    child.  We finally just let her cry without going in and she settled
    herself down.  I think that when we kept going in she thought that
    "maybe this time they'll pick me up".  It was too disconcerting for
    her.
    
    I definately know the temptation of going in to help her settle herself
    down.  But in our experience, it only made matters worse.  Even now, if
    somehow we get in that pattern (my husband is worse than I am when it
    comes to going in) she'll push it to the limit.  Each night it gets
    worse and then we have to start all over again.  If we're consistent
    about saying goodnight once, she settles down immediately!
    
    Good luck, I know its hard.  The story routine suggested in -1 was
    good.  Now we only have to worry about "one more story, Mom".
    
    Susan

    I tend to agree with both the last two replies.  She probably needs a
    more extended and elaborate bedtime activity/ritual.  But you should
    also hold a hard line on extemporaneous extensions.  At the like age,
    my boys both got what was known as Story-Song-and-Moon.  I would tell
    them a story (classic or made-up-on-the-spot), sing one or two songs,
    and recite Goodnight Moon.*  Absolutely predicatable and guaranteed
    available and uninterrupted.  And almost-without-exception guaranteed
    to settle them down from whatever state they'd started in to near or
    actual sleep.  There was rarely any need for further attention, but
    when supplied it was designed to be reassuring but -> unbelievably
    boring <-.  Plagerized, as I recall, directly from Penelope.  As the
    boys got older, increasing pieces of the ritual were replaced by
    reading aloud.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    *Since each boy got Goodnight Moon for roughly two straight years, with
    almost no exceptions, my recitations counted well into 4 figures.  It
    got so that _I_ could easily fall asleep halfway through yet proceed to
    the end without pause or error.

    I will suggest the books as well. Justine sounds like your daughter.
    She goes to bed quite well by herself %98 of the time, and like you we
    have a fairly regular routine. Occasionally she will start to protest
    as I put her in her crib and I have found the easiest thing to do is to
    say, "okay let's read some books". Then just one or two short books
    later I just suggest "kiss Daddy good night" and she off with no
    complaints.
    
    I think what happens is the extra minutes of cuddling give her a little
    more control over what is happening, as said before, a change to wind
    down.
    
    good luck

    Thanks for the advice - it's very reassuring to know that other
    people have gone through this and survived!  
    
    We do have a fairly elaborate bedtime routine (bathtime, jammies 
    on, downstairs, cup of milk, read two or three books, upstairs, 
    cuddles, lullabies, and lots of repetition - ie I always say the 
    same "ritual" things while going upstairs, tucking Alison in, etc.  
    The only change to this routine in the last year or so was three 
    months ago when I substituted cup of milk for bottle of milk 
    (no problems there) and introduced the bedtime stories.
   
    Perhaps I ought to cut out the downstairs stage and take her straight 
    from the bathroom into her bedroom (even though the atmosphere 
    downstairs is very quiet and subdued, so it's not as if she's 
    suddenly whisked away from excitement and bright lights).  Oh well, 
    I suppose anything is worth a try!

    I definately agree that going in every five minutes does not seem 
    to help at all.  I can understand it - it must seem like teasing, 
    when she's expecting Mum to pick her up and cuddle her - but what 
    does Mum do? - she walks out of the room again.  No wonder she's
    furious!

    Can I ask her what is wrong?  Oh I've asked, believe me, I've asked! 
    Unfortunately Alison is not articulate yet - she can say many 
    individual words (all nouns apart from hot, cold and gone), but she 
    can't talk in sentances yet.  Probably part of her frustration is 
    that she can't express what she's feeling.  When I've asked her what 
    is wrong, she doesn't say anything.  All she does it hang on to me, 
    so I believe the problem is that she doen't want me to go.  

    Anyway, thank's for reassuring me that this too, eventually, will pass.

    - Janet

    (somewhat calmed down now, after a day's "break" at work!)

    I've been reading with interest all the replies to this note but none
    of them seem to cover the problem we're having. Mathew is our second
    son and is now 4 weeks old. He sleeps soundly during the day waking
    only for his feeds at regular 4 hour intervals. His last feed is
    generally around 11-12 pm but after this he will not sleep again until
    aroud 7-8 am except for the occasional 10 minute doze. During the time
    he cries when put into his cradle. We have tried pacifiers (we call them
    dummies in this part of the world) but he will not keep them in his mouth,
    we have also changed his formula but again without success. The only thing
    which works is to lift him out of the cradle and nurse him.
    
    Our eldest son Ryan did not suffer any of these problems, from birth to
    around 9 months he woke only once during the night and from 9 months on
    he has been sleeping from 8pm-7am. We have done things much the same
    for Mathew insofar as feeding times etc. Ryan is now 2.5 yrs old.
    
    I was particularly interested in replies .15 (storysongandmoon) and .29
    (5-10-15) but would be glad of any other advice.
    
    Sean

Four weeks is very young and as you've discovered, all kids are different.

I hate *advice* but would mention that I think it's reasonable to respond to
what your tiny one needs.  Nurse him if that's what he needs.  Make it easier
on you by nursing him lying down so you both can get some rest.  And I would
take heed of the adage "Sleep when your baby sleeps" no matter how odd the 
timing.

When you are a bit more rested, then you might want to try shifting his feedings
by just a little bit, waking him gently during the day to start to introduce
him to more normal hours.

It is my *opinion* that it damages the parental bond of trust to let a baby
cry alone at night.  I do not believe they understand why they are not being
responded to.

Some people think their kids "sleep through the night" because when they wake
they are able to comfort themselves with a pacifier, blanket or stuffed animal.
If a baby wants the real thing for comfort, well that's your baby and I don't 
find it strange to provide what that child needs.

It could help to look at it this way - lots of kids in utero are most active at
night when mom rests and effectively stops rocking him/her to sleep by her 
constant motion.  Those babies aren't going to automatically change the 
schedule they have maintained their entire life just because they are born.

Hope you get some rest,

=ss

    re: 59
    
    I've heard an old wive's tale (I hate that term!) that you can
    shift a baby's sleep cycle by summer-saulting the baby physically!
    I know, it's crazy.
    
    Is it possible to try to keep the baby up a bit more during the
    day to gradually shift his sleep patterns?  Or, does he just zonk
    when he's ready?
    
    cj/

    Re: 59
    
    Nicole had her days and nights mixed up for the week after she was
    born.  The pediatrician suggested just tickling her under the chin
    enough to wake her up during the day.  I think we did it every 1/2 to
    every hour, and it worked beautifully - she slept that night !  
    
    It may be worth a try !
    
    -Joy
    

Are there any other parents out there who have used the door-closing
technique from "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem" (by Ferber)? I'd
like to hear your experiences.

Our 3-yr-old has been having a really hard time both going to bed and
staying in bed during the night. We began the door-closing a week ago,
and at first it seemed to be working, but now things have gotten worse.
We have been as conscientious as we possibly can in following the method,
but I'm beginning to have doubts and wonder if anyone has used it 
successfully on a tough case. We're all exhausted...

Lucy
                                                    

re: .63

> Are there any other parents out there who have used the door-closing
> technique from "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem" (by Ferber)? I'd
> like to hear your experiences.

I've never read Ferber, but I've closed the door.  Can you be say what 
Ferber's technique is?

Clay

    Clay,
    
    Ferber's technique for kids who climb out of bed at bedtime and during
    the night is to first put them back in, then if they get up again, hold 
    their door closed for progressively longer periods of time. He spells it 
    out very specifically. You are supposed to be kindly about it (no 
    yelling, threatening, etc), talk to them through the door and keep 
    stressing that if they stay in bed, the door stays open. You do this 
    every time they get up until they learn not to do it, using the schedule 
    he provides.
    
    This is great in theory, but for us it hasn't worked out so far. Daniel
    has just become more determined. We are all going to the pediatrician 
    tomorrow to talk about it (and make sure there's nothing physical going
    on).  
    
    Lucy

    Lucy,
    
    Some kids are afraid of being shut in -- being trapped in a fire,
    perhaps, or just claustrophobic.  I don't know if this might apply
    in your case, but that turned out to be my nephew's problem
    several years ago.
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    We used the Ferber door-closing method successfully with my daughter
    when she was just under 2 years old and I was 7 months pregnant with
    my son.  Previous to that, Jessica  would not stay in bed to fall asleep 
    or if she woke up at night unless I was sitting next to her and she was 
    holding my hand.  Some nights this took up to 1 1/2 hours.
    
    The first week 'doing Ferber' was the most difficult with tantrum time 
    lasting about 1 to 2 hours each night.  After about a total of 10 to 12 
    nights, she was happy to go to bed and stay there as long as her door was 
    open, as this was her measure of success.  Even now, 2 years later, she 
    has to have the door open to go to bed, but most nights she stays with no 
    problem.   
    
    I know personally 2 other children that the Ferber method has worked
    with so it can be done.  I found, for me,  it took lots of patience,
    the ability to talk soothingly thru the door while inside your heart 
    is breaking, the conviction that the original situation has to change 
    and, I feel most important, a support person to hold your hand and
    watch the clock while you hold the door shut tight with the other hand.
    
    If you want to talk more details off line, give me a ring.  Best of
    luck to all of you.
    
    Donna 
    
    

We also used a version of Ferber (without ever having heard of Ferber) in 
circumstances similar .67.  The due date of #2 was rapidly approaching, and #1 
was not going to sleep unless she had a back rub that lasted up to 45 minutes.

I'd like to emphasize what Donna said in .67

>    I found, for me,  it took lots of patience,
>    the ability to talk soothingly thru the door while inside your heart 
>    is breaking, the conviction that the original situation has to change 
>    and, I feel most important, a support person to hold your hand and
>    watch the clock while you hold the door shut tight with the other hand.

For us, it took roughly a week.  The first night, it took 2 hours.  The second 
night it took 1 hour.  The third night about 30 minutes.  We had a relapse the 
fourth night when the *&*&%%$ phone rang just as she was getting to sleep.  In 
about a week, she was going to bed and staying there with no problem.  

Good luck.

Clay

    So many times it seems like the "won't stay in bed" problems start
    shortly before the birth of a new baby (this was our case - David
    started this stage when I was 7 months pregnant).  I wonder if there's
    a connection?  Or is it just that often the new baby arrives when the
    older child is around 2-3 years old, and this is the normal age for
    bedtime problems?  I found dealing with the bedtime problems really
    difficult, because I was tired myself at the end of the day, and I just
    physically couldn't handle carrying a 35-pound child back to bed
    numerous times every evening.  I was *so* glad when that stage ended!
    I remember often wishing that he had chosen some other time to go
    through the phase, when I could have coped with it better.

								cheryl

    My son (19 months) has been sleeping in a bed for about two months now.
    When he was in the crib, he'd sleep right through the night (and if he
    did get up and start crying, it wouldn't be long when he'd fall back to
    sleep. Our problem is that because he's in a bed, he walks into our
    room (kind of crying, fussing) and gets into our bed. Can someone
    recomend a solution to fix this problem? I don't know why this started
    all of a sudden. We just had another baby aboutxx

re: .69

Just to clarify something, in our case, it was not that the sleeping problems 
started just before the birth of our second child.  The back rub, sit by the 
bed ritual had been there for some time, and had gradually gotten out of hand. 
We didn't like the length of the ritual, but we tolerated it.

It was US that changed.  With an impending birth, we realized that we 
wouldn't get much sleep, and we just couldn't afford the 45 minutes to an hour 
(in ADDITION to the bedtime story etc.).  Lara was NOT amenable to shortening 
the backrub, so we decided that we needed to eliminate it.  We only took what 
for us seemed like a drastic step after a consultation with our pedi.

Clay

My daughter who is almost 3 does the same thing.  Same
situation -- minimal problems getting her to go to
sleep in the crib, but the bed is a different story all 
together.

Rayna has a series of things she tries to get us to take her
into our bed.  Typical things are "Mommy, my stomach hurts", 
"Mommy, I have to tell you a secret", etc.

I think she's just a little frightened about being in her 
own room without the security of her crib.

I've tried these things, and they generally work.

-  Reassure you're child that you're close by
-  Establish a relaxing nightime ritual.  With Rayna it's
   a warm bath, a couple of books read to her in HER bed,
   and then a bedtime prayer.
-  Make your room not as inviting.  In our case it means 
   turning off our TV, and not doing a lot of talking until
   we're sure she's asleep.  Once she's sure that Mommy and
   Daddy aren't having more fun in their room than she's 
   having in hers, she generally falls off to sleep -- most
   nights anyway!

Good Luck! 

    Thanks to all who replied to my door-closing note. It helps to know
    that so many others have had the same problem. 
    
    Over the weekend we modified our approach. It seemed the Ferber method
    was just driving Daniel into a spiral of anxiety and tantrums (although
    I never felt he was fearful or panic-stricken, just very pissed off.) Now, 
    every time he gets out of bed we hold his door closed until he gets back 
    in by himself, pulls up the covers, and settles down (no complaining, 
    howling, negotiating, etc). This has taken anywhere from 40 minutes to two 
    minutes...it all depends on his willingness to get back in bed and 
    stay there.  
    
    We're still in the thick of it, though, because he is still getting up
    three or four times a night. But I feel that we all are clear on what 
    we're doing now. I just hope he can give up the night-rising habit
    sometime soon.
    
    Lucy
    

    (hi, lucy !)
    
    my son (3 in april) went into the big bed a few days after
    christmas. he didn't ask to but his waking early and asking to
    be taken out of the crib was getting to us.
    
    we are having a battle getting him to stay in the new bed.
    he sneaks down the hall and sits on the stairs where we can't
    see him and just sits there...grinning in the dark i think...
    but we do hear the little pitter patter. he also sneaks across
    the hall and burrows into our dark bedroom if we are still 
    in the living room.
                                              
    what we did do that helped was to move the still-assembled crib
    into another room and we tell him that 'one more time and you
    go into the crib for the night'... this seems to work make him
    stay in his own big bed...but not everyone wants to keep the crib
    around as an threat.
    
    the first morning he woke up in the big bed he still called
    for us...we answered across the hall that he could get up on
    his own and he did with some whimpering.
    
    the real hard part is that i enjoy having him come across and
    get into bed with us so we don't discourage it as much as we
    should.
    

    
    
       My son, Matthew, will be two years old next month.  Sleep time
    has always been a real chore for Matthew and it has taken a real
    toll on my husband and myself.  The problem we have had lately,
    aside from his not wanting to go to bed and crying at the bedroom
    door, is that every night like clockwork, between the hours of
    3am and 6am, he wakes up and goes to the door crying.  All it takes
    from my husband or me is to go to his room and tell him to go 
    back to bed.  He gets right in bed and doesn't say another word.
    Although this is a simple solution, the fact that we are still awoken
    everynight is very annoying since it is sometimes very hard to go
    back to sleep.  Do others still have this middle of the night waking
    syndrome problem with toddlers?  What do you think the problem is?
    Does he fear that we are not in the house and just needs to see
    our face??  Could it be nightmares??  He has had a nightlite since
    birth, so the room certainly is not dark enough for him to be afraid
    of the dark.  Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Lorain
    
    
    
     

    
    I have a 4 month old, so I haven't had to deal with this one yet.
    But my mother told me when I was little I used to wake up crying around
    the same time every night if I didn't go to the bathroom before bed
    time. If your child is not already potty trained, than this does not
    apply but if he is try making sure he goes before bedtime. I heard on
    What every baby knows, Dr. Brazelton said sometimes reading a good
    bedtime story before bed helps. I don't know how but, it was his
    suggestion.
    
    
    
    Good luck
    
    sandy

    Hi Lorain,
    
    If you haven't done so already, I'd recommend reading Ferber's
    "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem" (in paperback, ~$10 I think).
    I don't know if this specific problem is addressed, but there 
    are alot of similar scenarios detailed.   Worthwhile reading 
    in my opinion.
    
    Carol

Lorain,

My son (also Matthew) did this quite a bit, too, only he never got out of
bed. He would wake up crying just about every night, and would go right 
back to sleep as soon as one of us went in his room to comfort him.

It ended when he was about 2 yrs. 5 months.  (Now he's 2 yrs. 7 mos.)  Now
he wakes up once in awhile (about once every 2 weeks) crying, but it's 
because of a nightmare or because he's kicked all the covers off and is cold.

� �ori �
(a.k.a. Lorraine)

    Steven used to get up in the middle of the night, too.  He thought
    that when he woke up, it was time to get up and start the day. 
    Once we told him that it was still the middle of the night, he'd
    go right back to sleep.
    
    After three kids, I've just learned how to go back to sleep
    promptly most of the time . . .
    
    --bonnie

    Brian woke up each night until he was just over 2.  He was still in his
    crib so he couldn't get up, and he was still in diapers so having to go
    to the bathroom wasn't part of the problem.  He stopped eating at night 
    at about 6 months, but he continued to wake up (usually only once, but 
    sometimes twice).  All he needed was a hug and to be layed back down. 
    Maybe he just had to be reassured that someone was still there.  Who
    knows?  Hopefully your child will outgrow it soon.  In the meantime,
    try not to let yourself wake up too much.  If settling him back down
    can become more routine, maybe you can do it in a semi-awake state and
    be able to get back to sleep more easily.  Good luck! 
    
                                                      Tracy 

    Jason woke up every night, once or twice till he was about 2 1/2, and
    then one night it just stopped.  About a week later we said "Hey, Jason
    hasn't woken up at all this week!".  Each night all he wanted was (I
    think) to know that someone was there, cuz he'd go right back to sleep.
    
    Could you try just calling to him and tell him to go back to bed?  At
    least then you won't have to get out of bed.
    
    I believe, in the book that was referred, the basic theory is that your
    child has not learned to confort himself at night, and is depending on
    you to comfort him.  To break the 'cycle', you do something like;
    Night 1: He calls/cries.  You wait 5 minutes and then go comfort him
    Night 2: He calls/cries.  You wait 10 minutes and then go comfort him
    Night 3: He calls/cries.  You wait 20 minutes and then go comfort him.
    Night 4: He comforts himself
    
    I may not have the times right, but that's the basic theory behind it. 
    They say it REALLY works --- I could never bear to listen to my kid cry
    for 20 minutes, plus after 20 mins of crying he'd NEVER go back to
    sleep (nor would me or anyone else in the house) so I never tried it,
    but we did find sometimes that if we just left him for a few minutes
    he'd stop and go back to sleep on his own.  Personally, I vote that
    he'll grow out of it.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty
    

    If you're in a two-parent household, you can trade off which
    parent goes to comfort the child.  If Mother goes in tonight,
    Father goes in tomorrow night.  That way neither of you is running
    on consecutive nights of interrupted sleep.
    
    --bonnie

 
 Don't listen to bonnie!  The first thing to try is pretending you are sound
 asleep, so that your spouse will always deal with the problem.  But that
 probably won't work.  So then you need to learn to go in and resettle the
 child without ever waking up.  Most parents master this no later than their
 second child.  I don't know why bonnie is keeping it secret.
 
 		- Bruce

    I have to thank all the contributors to this note for two things ...
    one, now I know I'm not alone in the middle of the night when Ben will
    not be comforted; and two, for giving me some suggestions for coaxing
    him back to sleep without nursing/rocking/singing/drinks.
    
    As a result, we have had three consecutive nights' sleep and feel
    really refreshed. Long may it continue.
    
    The first change I made was to put him in his cot awake. Night one I
    let him cry for five minutes, then returned, tucked in his covers
    again, reassured him that I was around but told him it was time for sleep. 
    I then intended to follow the book's guidelines and not check on him
    for a further 20 minutes, but after fifteen minutes he was asleep. (I
    have never left him to cry for even five minutes before ... but maybe that 
    has been my (and his) problem all along).
    
    Night two he whimpered for only five minutes; night three he gurgled
    quite happily when I put him in his cot and was asleep by the time I
    had run my bath (such optimism on my part, too, to plan a
    bath so early in the evening!).
    
    Perhaps the biggest difference is in my change of attitude ... it
    took reading this note and replies, and the book, to convince me that
    it was okay to let Ben cry for a few minutes. It's amazing how much
    you can accomplish around the house in 20 minutes when you're not laden
    with guilt, sitting out of sight on the floor at the foot of the cot
    rocking it and crooning yourself silly.    
    
    Ben is 10 and a half months.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Yours in anticipation of another night's sleep.
    
    May j.
               

Michelle has a strange habit now.  For the last 2 weeks, at 5 a.m., give or
take 10 minutes, she wakes up but does not cry.  Almost every time she just
makes a lot of noise like she's playing and then gets herself back to sleep
until her normal waking time at 6:30 a.m.  But a couple of times if I still
hear her at 5:30, I go and put her pacifier in and she immediately falls back
to sleep.  Is this too weird?  I guess I'm not complaining too loudly, because
as soon as it started, I started going to bed at 9 p.m. to account for waking
so early (I just started back to work about that time and found that when I
was woken up at 5 a.m. I couldn't stop thinking about anything and everything
enough to get back to sleep!).

Kyra

P.S.  I wish someone had told me to not put your baby's room within earshot
of your own!  Michelle's is right next to ours and I hear every peep!

    Kyra,
    
    No, that is not "too weird"!  Steven started doing this about
    the same age as Michelle, and now at 14 mos. he still does it.
    He seems to love to play in his crib and since he isn't always
    a good napper, it's nice to know that when he wakes up from 
    a short nap he is content in his crib for awhile.
    
    Steven seems to go in stages of waking early and playing for
    awhile and then going back to sleep for a few hours.  So 
    hang in there, she may not do this EVERY morning.
    
    Linda

                    <<< Note 135.85 by INFACT::HILGENBERG >>>

>Michelle has a strange habit now.  For the last 2 weeks, at 5 a.m., give or
>take 10 minutes, she wakes up but does not cry.  Almost every time she just
makes a lot of noise like she's playing and then gets herself back to sleep
>until her normal waking time at 6:30 a.m.  But a couple of times if I still
>hear her at 5:30, I go and put her pacifier in and she immediately falls back
>to sleep. 


Good Grief ! I could have written the above.. word for word...


Graham has a strange habit now.  For the last 2 weeks, at 5 a.m., give or
take 10 minutes, he wakes up but does not cry.  Almost every time he just
makes a lot of noise like he's playing and then gets himself back to sleep
etc etc

Graham is 10 months old.. (how old is Michelle?)... 

Perhaps this is an organized action! maybe
babies have better trans continental links than we do!!


I'll agree with the placing of their room too.. we get to hear every
mutter

    A question on the Ferber method, when you hold the door shut should or 
    should not the room have a night light?
    
    My question comes from the fact that a few months ago we had a *major*
    discipline problem with AJ (who was about 3-1/2) and the pyscologist at
    the ADHD clinic who had done his evaluation pretty much made the same
    points, which was to put him to bed and make sure the door stays shut,
    even if this involved holding or locking (which I heartily disapprove)
    the door shut.  He has a small 5 or 7 watt nightlight, and it stays lit
    all night.  Exception to this rule is if he is still, as we put it,
    "partying" after an hour he is warned just once that if he makes any
    furhter noise and isn't asleep by the next time we check him (we say 5
    minutes but what sense of time does a child have anyway?) the
    nightlight will be taken away.  We've only had to enforce this rule
    less than 4 times in a year.  At first he became hysterical in the
    dark, and the last time we took it away he initially yelled and
    suddenly became quiet.....we thought he'd finally given up and gone to
    sleep, the little sneak had gotten up and flipped on the lamp and was
    flipping through books!  Of course the carpet meets the door so tightly
    that we couldn't see any light under the door and never imagined he'd
    be so clever!
    
    Anyone want a *real clever* kid???
    
    Lyn

    for me personally .... I don't 'believe in' night lights.  Our kids
    have always had VERY dark rooms, and they seem to be fine with it.  It
    helps a lot when they need to sleep at someone's house that DOESN'T
    have a night light.  Of course, we usually leave their bedroom door
    open a few inches till they fall asleep.  If it was closed all the way
    it wouldn't be a big deal.  Or maybe I'm just too lazy to have to
    hassle with having one more thing 'just perfect' before bedtime.

    When we were doing the door-closing, we put a very low-wattage (2 w)
    nightlight in Dan's room. I didn't want fear of the dark to complicate
    what was already going on. It has a shade on it that directs the light
    down to the floor. It's probably going to be a permanent part of his
    decor now.
    
    Lucy
    

    In re: .89 "I don't 'believe in' night lights."
 
 Pretty clearly, night light dependency is induced.  Having a night light on
 is a great help to parents who frequently check and/or service infants and
 toddlers.  The kid becomes used to, and eventually dependent upon, having the
 light.  But I'm not sure it's particularly unfortunate, at least for most
 kids.  Mine have had no trouble occasionally sleeping in some different place
 where there were no night lights.  And as they've gotten older (and used to
 turning their light on and off routinely, anyway) they seem to adjust easily
 to the night light disappearing.
 
 The long-term dependency is mine.  I put a night light in the bathroom when
 Aaron started using it on his own, and I think I will keep it there forever. 
 With it and another in the livingroom, I can navigate practically the whole
 house in the wee hours without turning anything else on (and without bashing
 my shins or stepping on a cat).
 
 		- Bruce

    I don't think nightlights are particularly a "bad" dependence to have.
    I do wonder, though, why you would threaten AJ with the nightlight
    being turned off - it just doesn't seem like a punishment to fit the
    crime of still "partying" as you put it. And, the fact that he was
    hysterical without it suggests to me that another repercussion might
    have worked a little better.  Perhaps you could ask for some more
    suggestions from your counselor at the clinic?
    
    

re: 5 am wake-up

Michelle turns 7 months this Saturday.  And she's still doing it!

Kyra

Hi,

My daughter, 21 months, hates to go to bed. She screams, she wails.
Our problem is now she can climb out of the crib. When we go
visiting, we put her in a travel crib that she can now climb
out of quite easily. What do we do now? Is it easier to get
them to go to bed when they are older and can communicate with
you? 

Do I just have to let her roam around until she's too tired to
complain about going to bed?? I won't be able to enforce a
bed time anymore...I try to make her go to bed around 8-8.30. She
used to settle in and play (I left a night light on) for a little
while until going to sleep. But I don't know what will happen now....



Thanks for any help you can give me.

Elizabeth

    re .94
    Put together some night time rituals and then stick to them. Giving
    notice that bedtime is in 10 minutes is one that really helps... kids
    need to know that things will change in a few minutes to something
    else.
    
    Ferber's book, mentioned elsewhere in here, might be of help to you.
    good luck,
    

    I second the rituals and 'The Warning'.  It also gives the kid a chance
    to remind you that you forgot to do something you said you would do
    (make a tower with my leggos - whatever).  This probably isn't a
    problem for you yet though.
    
    We usually cuddle up on the couch and read a book or watch t.v. for the
    last 15 minutes of 'up time', and then when bedtime comes, it's
    bedtime.  I feel it's important that you are strict about KEEPING them
    in their room once they're put to bed.  If they stay up past bedtime,
    that's one thing, but if you let them come out of their room to get a
    drink or say goodnight 'one more time', then they won't take you
    seriously.  INSIST that she stay in her room once you put her there. 
    She may be too young, but if she can conceive the notion of losing a
    privelege, you may consider giving her warnings 'If you come out of
    your room one more time, you won't be able to {whatever she likes to
    do} tomorrow.' -- but you have to stick with it tomorrow.
    
    I've been fortunate that my kids have never fussed too much about
    bedtime, but I can offer how we've handled them and their room.
    
    Another idea may be to make her room someplace that she LOVES to be ?? 
    Maybe occassionally take a book or something in there to read with her,
    or a toy to play with her.  Of course I've also heard opposite that
    says the bedroom should ONLY be introduced as a place to sleep.  My
    kids have a lot to say about how their room is arranged, where things
    are, what things can go in there (within reason, of course), so they're
    very comfortable in there.  It's the one place in the house where they
    don't have to worry about things 'looking "RIGHT"', and they're free to
    make their world what they want.
    
    Also, about that age, both of my kids much preferred to fall asleep in
    mommy and daddy's bed.  Since we don't go to bed till much later, it
    was never a big deal to move them into their own bed when it was our
    bedtime.  I wouldn't make a habit of it, but once in a while, I'm sure
    it's comforting to them.  
    
    Is there a reason why she hates going to bed so much??  If you can find
    that out (I know, at 21 mos, you're probably laughing!), you'll be able
    to solve the problem much faster.  Maybe there's something in the room
    she's afraid of?  Maybe she's afraid of the dark?  That shadow?  Maybe
    she just misses mommy and daddy when she's _ALONE_ (which is a *BIG*
    deal to a 2 year old) like that.  Or perhaps she's afraid that you
    won't be there when she wakes up??  A little reassurring (I love you,
    see you in the morning!!) can help that.  My boys won't go to sleep if
    the closet door is open.  They're petrified.  NO IDEA why, but once
    it's shut, they're out like lights.
    
    FINALLY (sorry, I didn't mean for this to get so LONG), the times when
    they're really fighting me about falling asleep, it does seem to help
    if I explain my side of the situation, which is usually something
    like;
    
    Look, you guys should've been asleep a long time ago.  Mommy's very
    tired, and I'm starting to get angry.  If you don't get some sleep
    soon, you'll be grumpy tomorrow, and then we'll ALL be grumpy.
    
    or the old;
    
    BE QUIET!!  I'm trying to go to sleep and you're keeping me awake
    
    seems to work wonders.  Kids don't think that parents go to bed until
    about 5 mins before the kids wake up .... let them know that YOU want
    to go to bed TOO!
    
    Of course, we've always said stuff to them like "I WISH I could go to
    sleep now, I'm SO tired!!", so they don't see bed as anything that you
    shouldn't _want_ to do.  
    
    and the disclaimer to all this reasoning is that my boys are 5 1/2 and
    almost 3, so I can reason with them quite well.
    
    your mileage may vary.   GOOD LUCK!!
    

    Are you sure she's tired at 8 o'clock?  I ask because you said that she
    used to play in bed before falling asleep, but now that she can get
    out instead, she does.  It sounds like she's just not tired enough when
    you put her in.  
    
    When Brian was that age, he didn't go to bed until 10 o'clock, got up
    at 6 in the morning, and took a 2 hour nap in the afternoon.  That's
    it.  Some children just don't need as much sleep as others. 
    It was tough on my sister and brother-in-law because they didn't have
    much (any?) quiet time to themselves, and they were sometimes envious
    of the parents whose kids slept 7 to 7 plus naps, but that was just the 
    way Brian was.  Now that he no longer takes a nap, he's ready to start the
    bedtime rituals at 8:30 instead.
    
                                              Tracy  

    HELP!
    
    My daughter Ilona is nearly 4 months old.  She was 5+ pounds at birth
    and is just now over 10 pounds, maybe 11 (she was full term at birth,
    and she'll be weighed Wednesday).  I nurse her from 7 pm to 6 am and
    she gets formula the rest of the time.  She sleeps 5 or 6 hours after
    going down at 9.  I wish she would sleep at least 8 hours.  I am
    exhausted, working full time and commuting.  Is she ready for stern
    measures?
    
    Ferber says "most" can sleep through at 3 months and "all" at 6 months.
    I've been letting her go until she gained more weight.  Maybe now is
    the time?
    
    Her bedtime routine consists of nursing about 7pm-8pm, bath at 8:15 or
    so, massage and change, and nursery rhymes book, sitting in my lap, in
    the rocker in her room, until 9 or 9:20.  Usually she settles ok with
    up to 10 minutes of crying or rocking her head back and forth. 
    Sometimes I have to nurse her again, either in my bed or in the rocker. 
    Then she falls asleep while nursing.  Weekdays I take her to her
    babysitter at 6:30 am, and she is often sleeping and still in pj's.
    
    The problem is the middle-of-the-night awakening.  She is often wet (we
    use cloth diapers, trying disposables didn't help).  I change her, no
    nonsense or lights.  She doesn't usually open her eyes or shed tears,
    but she keeps crying.  I then take her to my bed for 10-40 minutes of
    nursing.  Then move her back to the cradle until morning.  She's
    sleeping when I move her.  I much prefer to feed her in bed, because at
    least I usually get some sleep.
    
    She slept 7 hours in a row for 5 nights (non-consecutive) 4 weeks ago,
    but went back to the 5 or 6 hours routine.  G-d, I am wiped out.
    
    Should I go to Ferber 101?  (5-10-15 minute intervals) Would consistent
    use of disposables help?  (She hated wet diapers since birth)  I'm
    trying to avoid starting with a pacifier, and she does suck on her
    hands .  Should I give a  pacifier?  Does she need that night feeding
    still?  I'll have the doctor's opinion Wednesday but I'd like the input
    of some experienced parents.
    
    Thanks
    Laura
    
    

Laura,

While I endorse much of what Ferber writes, my instincts
tell me that she is too young to impose a rigid
schedule - and too small as well!

I would advise against the pacifier - I made that
mistake with my first and that is her best friend (she
will be 2 next week) and I'm sure she'll walk down the
aisle in it!  While I do give my 2nd a paci sometimes,
I don't do it at bedtime.  I think if you did that,
you might be constantly getting up to put it back in
her mouth!!!!!!!!!

Do you change sides in the night feedings?  If so,
how about just letting her nurse one side just enough
to take the edge off of her hunger?

Kristen

    As .99 says, this will end, we promise--and something else will start! 
    
    We use cloth and double-diaper at night-time.  This might help you with
    the wetness problem.  Take a second and fold it into thirds, wrap it
    front-to-back between the baby's legs over the regular diaper, but
    under the diaperwrap.
    
    At four months, going from 8pm to 5pm (your desired eight hours from
    9pm) is a long time without food.  Perhaps you could swap the evening
    nursing and the book-reading, which means you've shifted the meal to
    just before going to sleep rather than an hour before?
    
    When our son was four months old and woke up in the middle of the night
    we went for the easy solution:  put him in the bed with us, let him nurse,
    and all go back to sleep in the one bed.  It worked, and had the least
    impact on our sleeping of the other ideas we had.  There was no trouble
    moving him back to sleeping on his own later, which may not be true
    for all babies.
    
    As for "Ferbering", it may be too early or not, but I know it's hard on
    parents--if you are going to do it, you must be committed to following
    through, as a failed effort will only make re-Ferbering harder in the
    future.
    
    			-John Bishop

    Sounds to me like Ilona is doing pretty much exactly what she should be
    doing at 4 months.  I think a middle-of-the-night feeding is fine until
    about 6 months.  I think for a 4-month-old to sleep 6 hrs. straight is
    great.  I know it's tough getting up every night when you're working
    full-time, but it's much too soon for Ferber.  I think infants of that
    age really need to eat in the middle of the night.  If she's still
    crying to be fed by the time she's 6 months old, then you can start
    trying to get her to sleep longer.  Marc got up every night until he
    was about 5-6 months old, and I tell you, that first month back I was
    just a zombie!  

    Does she sleep much during the day? At 4 months, our son was in bed by
    6:30-7:00 pm but come h#ll or high water I woke him at 10 or 11 for a
    feeding, trying desperately to get him to give up the 2 am feeding.
    Which he did do at just 4 months.
    
    I remember reading Spock and thinking I had a weird child since Spock
    claimed that any baby 9 lbs. or heavier should not need a feeding
    during the night - HA! They eat when they need to, regardless of what
    the books say.
    
    Although we used cloth diapers, we did use a disposable at night. I am
    amazed at the number of people who get their baby up and change them
    during the night - once Ryan stopped pooping during feedings, I'd leave
    his diaper til morning - a wet diaper certainly won't kill them.
    
    Definitely try just nursing one side. 4 months was also when we went to
    a bottle in the middle of the night so my husband could alternate
    nights with me, and we decreased the amount from 4 oz to 3 to 2.
    
    good luck,
    

Four months was when I started giving Kat a nighttime feeding of cereal.
That seemed to help her a lot.  She was also quite small for her age and
her height, and had a weak stomach muscle, so if she drank too much, she'd
throw up.  The more concentrated cereal let her pack more energy into less
space with less upset, and helped her sleep better and longer.  I know
pediatricians say solids don't help a child sleep, and that starting solids
for the purpose of increasing sleep is a bad idea, but it sure seemed to
work for us.  You might want to check about it since 4 months isn't that 
young for solids anyway.  

With the two younger ones, we found that doing as Lynn suggested in .102 
and putting the baby to bed around 7, then waking him up at our bedtime
around 10 or 11 worked well.  They'd barely wake up for the feeding.  

--bonnie

    All these different approaches ....!  We started Jason on cereal at
    about 3-4 mos, and whoever said it doesn't help them sleep, never met
    Jason!!  He was definitely small for his age, so this helped.  He was
    getting up 2 times every night before the cereal, once (to eat) after
    we switched.  Don't get too excited - until he was about 2 1/2 (and
    occassionally now), he was up at least once a night to be 'comforted'.
    
    I would definitely switch to _SOME_ different diapers to help her stay
    drier at night.  I doubt it's wet as much as it is that she probably
    gets cold.  Maybe if you try a larger size of disposables, and/or
    include a doubler.  
    
    We used to keep them up till about 11 or 12, which let them sleep till
    about 5, which helped (but was REALLY rotten at 11 or 12!).
    
    GOOD LUCK!!!  This too will pass, and one morning you'll wake up and
    realize that she's slept through for a few days - you were just too
    tired to notice (-;

    Well, like they say, just when you can't take it anymore things change.
    
    For the last two nights she slept through with no change in our bedtime
    routine!  The first night she slept from 9 to 10, woke up crying, got
    reassured 3 times, nursed for 10 minutes (she was very sleepy) and
    allowed to cry another 20 minutes before she slept until 5:30 am.  Last
    night she slept from 9:40 to 5:40.  Course I had to scramble to feed
    her a little while rushing around getting ready for work, just tiding
    her over until daycare, but that's a small price to pay.
    
    I'm holding my breath hoping this is permanent (until she teethes, or
    gets sick, or we travel, or ...?).  Catching up on my sleep.  7 hours
    seems like a luxury now.  Reassuring my husband I haven't forgotten
    about HIM.  Seems like maybe we can enjoy being married again. Who
    knows - maybe #2 will come along?
    
    Laura                            
    
    Thanks for the advice, but especially for the support.  It really has
    meant a lot to me and helped a great deal.

    
    Hello,
    
      Maybe I am expecting way too much,for only being a new father for 
    1 month but I am looking for info as to what your experiences were
    with your new born and his/her sleeping habits ?  Our little Nicole
    just does not seem to like sleeping yet.  She is feeding on ISOMIL,
    cause SIMILAC didn't work out.  My wife is home for 3 months (DEC
    leave) and is quite happy but tired.  Nicole usually sleeps from 10pm
    to about 1am, we feed her, change her and she goes back to bed.  But
    like clockwork, she is awake every hour until my wife gets up for the
    day which is around 7-8am.  If we are lucky, she will sleep 1-2 hours
    during the day, but mostly she seems to just rest her eyes until you
    walk in the room...  Maybe we are feeding her too much ??  She eats
    about 4-6 ounces about every 3 hours and then she is very content.  She
    will sit there with pacifier and just look around with her wicked big
    blue eyes.   If this makes any difference, she is changed at least
    every 2 hours, and gets lots of huggs and kisses.   The doctor said she
    has "COLIC" (sp) but it is not very bad at all.  She has her spells of
    this but it is not enough to be concerned, at this time.  Any of your
    experiences or advice would be appreciated....   
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Don
    
    P.S.  I have read this note almost from the start but am looking for
    more info on newborns.
    
     
    

    RE: .106
    
    I'm confused.  Are you feeding Nicole every hour between 1am-7am?
    or does she just wake up and cry a bit?   Are you burping her
    thoroughly after the 1am feeding?   Maybe if she isn't get a 
    good burp up, she is having trouble settling after the 1am feeding
    because of stomach gas.
    
    Carol   

    
    Hi,
    
      Yes, the wifeand are are trying to burp Nicole after every feeding
    but sometimes she doesn't burp after an hour of back patting, lating
    her on our knees, etc.....
      From 1am to 7am, wakes about every hour to hour and a half.  We
    change her, turn her on her side/stomache, give her pacifier, rub her
    back, hold her, etc and then resort to feeding since this is what 
    quiets her down and then she will sleep...  OK, maybe we are feeding 
    her too much.  Her eyes pop out of her head when she gets a bottle.
    It's kind of hard not giving her one this often.  We don;t always 
    listen to the doctor, but he said as long as formula is going in 
    an coming out, don't worry too much...  
      The wife and I are new to this parent thing, but are willing to
    listen.  Yes, the wife and I have read 2-3 books about newborns and all
    the things to see/know/expect/anticipate, but there is nothing like
    actual experience.
    thanks
    don
    
    

    Don,
    
    Sorry I don't have any great pearls of wisdom.   However, you might
    consider *not* changing her during the night if the diaper is
    only wet (esp. if using disposables).  The undressing will probably
    totally wake her up....
    
    FWIW,
    Carol

Another possibility is to experiment with the sleep position and the
amount and kind of bedding and clothing.  

Some babies (Kat, David) sleep better on their stomachs.  Others (Steven)
sleep better on their backs or their sides.   

If you have an average warm U.S. house and keep it at an average temperature
overnight, and then put her in a heavy sleeper or under blankets, 
she might be waking up because she's too warm.  Try a lighter sleeper, 
fewer blankets, or both.  This is quite common.  Conversely, if the house 
is chilly at night, or if she's like my oldest and gets chilly easily, she 
might be waking up because she's chilly.  Try a warmer sleeper or another
blanket.  

Try with/without a nightlight.  

Try background noise -- an air cleaner, a humidifier, something like that.

I agree with not changing her every time unless she's very wet or dirty.
The extra activity really wakes a baby up.  Also, if you're both going
in together, she might take that as a signal of playtime.  

Some babies just don't sleep much.   My second one didn't.  If this is 
the case, you don't have to worry -- she'll still be an insomniac when
she hits six, and then you can join us in the dubious pleasure of going to
bed while the kid's still reading to his stuffed animals. :)

--bonnie 

    
    To expand a bit on something Bonnie mentioned, do try to be as 
    boring as possible during the nighttime wakings.   For example,
    we did not talk to Jason *at all* during the nighttime feedings
    when he was a newborn.   

    There really is no such thing as feeding too much - babies take in what
    they want and then will stop drinking. You don't mention her weigh but
    especially if she's small, she may need to eat more often because of
    having a smaller stomach.
    

    Jason was a tough one to get burped .. the only thing we found that
    worked well (and this will sound weird...) was to tip him upside down.
    
    This was basically the routine we used;
    Wait about 3-5 mins after feeding (without trying to burp).  Then
    burp the baby for about 1-2 mins, then sit the baby on your thigh, facing 
    your other thigh, your hand (the one opposite the thigh she's sitting
    on) under their chin, your pinky under their armpit, heel of your hand
    on their chest.   Hold your other hand firmly on their back, spread your 
    legs, and tip the baby down slowly and smoothly (between your legs) until 
    they're as upside down as you can stand, maintaining a *FIRM*
    grip.  Hold the baby there for a few seconds, sit her up, let her
    'rest' for a few seconds, then try burping again.  Repeat as needed, up
    to 4-5 times.  If that doesn't work, we would give up.  A lot of times
    when it didn't work, the next time he started sqawking, we'd pick him
    up and he'd burp AS we were picking him up.  
    
    This is what worked for Jason.  Christopher was only too happy to burp
    at the prescribed intervals ... it's amazing how different they can be!
    
    If you decide to use this, please _BE CAREFUL_.  Make sure you have a
    firm grip on her and not just her pj's.  She's pretty much sandwiched
    between your hands, but those clothes can be slippery!
    
    And, YES, you will get a full night's slip sometime, it DOES get much
    better, it's _certainly_ all worth it, and most importantly;
    
    If you think that you're doing something 'wrong', keep in mind
    that she doesn't know the difference!!
    
    Welcome to the wonderful world of parenting - it's the most
    frustrating, rewarding job you'll ever love!
    

Don,

It took us just a few weeks to decide that both of us need not to
participate in the feed ing of Sammy. We agreed that I would feed
sam after midnight and other support duties; ie burp him and
change him. Judy would do the honours before midnight.

It worked well for us since I am a morning person and enjoyed
getting Sam his feeding. We are blessed with a very considerate
child. Ay 6 weeks, he was sleeping from 11:30pm to 5AM. I just
had to heat up his Isomil and he was happy until Judy woke up at
8 to give him his second feeding.

Enjoy the closeness that feeding your baby; they grow up SOOO
FAST.

calvin

    Those of you with slightly older children will understand .... and
    those without, be forewarned!!
    
    Reprinted without permission - Reader's Digest, February, 1991
    
    Gozilla vs. the Sandman
    Condensed from "Dave Barry's Guide to Marriage and/or Sex"
    Dave Barry
    
    Children are nature's very own form of birth control.  To illustrate
    the way they perform this function, let's look at how my wife and I put
    our 6-year old son, Robert, to bed on a typical evening.  To make sure
    that we have some time to ourselves, we try to have him tucked in by 8
    p.m. which means we start the procedure a full hour earlier.
    
    7 p.m.: We announce "Robert, it's time to get ready for bed."
    
    7:04, 7:09, 7:23, 7:14, 7:17, 7:18, 7:22, 7:24, 7:25, 7:26 and 7:27: 
    We announce to Robert that he really has to start getting ready for bed
    Right Now and we are Not Kidding.
    
    7:28: Robert goes to his room and actually starts getting ready for
    bed.
    
    7:29: Robert notices that his rubber Godzilla doll is missing.  How he
    notices this is a room containing roughly 78,500 toys, nobody can
    explain, but he does.  And, of course, all other activities must cease
    until we can resolve this matter because God forbid that a child should
    be required to go to bed without his rubber Godzilla doll.
    
    7:43: We locate Godzilla, and Robert begins taking off his clothes and
    putting on his pajamas.  He can do this All By Himself.
    
    [note the time]
    
    9:27: So far, All By Himself, Robert has removed his shirt and one
    shoe.  I go in to help him.
    
    9:30: Now in his pajamas, Robert has his teeth brushed, which is the
    signal for him to announce that he is hungry.  We tell him that this is
    his own fault because he did not finish supper, that he absolutely
    cannot have any more food, no sir, forget it, not a chance, it's time
    he learned his lesson.
    
    9:57: Robert finishes a bowl of Zooroni and submits to having his teeth
    brushed again.
    
    10:02: We read a bedtime story, "Horton Hatches the Egg", by Dr.
    Suess.  This takes a while because we must study every page carefully
    in case there is a tiny detail we might have missed the previous 267
    consecutive nights we read it.
    
    10:43, 10:47, 10:51, 10:54, 10:56 and 10:59: We announce that it really
    is time to go to bed Right Now and we are Not Kidding.
    
    11:03: Robert actually gets into his bed.  We tuck him in, kiss him
    good-night and creep silently out of the room, alone at last.
    
    11:17: Robert falls asleep, but is awakened by a terrible nightmare
    caused by being in bed with a rubber Godzilla doll.  We remove it.
    
    11:28: We kiss Robert good-night and creep silently out of the room,
    alone at last.
    
    11:32: Hearing noise from Robert's room, we return to find him sobbing
    loudly.  Barely able to choke out the words he explains that the
    mother bird in "Horton Hatches the Egg" loses her baby in the end and
    even though she was terribly mean, she is probably very sorry and very
    lonely by now.  We try to explain that this is not at all the point
    that Dr. Suess was trying to make.  But Robert is inconsolable. 
    Finally we agree to let him climb into bed with us - just for one
    minute.
    
    2:47 a.m.: We return Robert to his bed, kiss him good-night and creep
    silently from the room, alone at last.
    
    3:14, 3:58, 4:26, 5:11 and 5:43: The household goes on Red Alert as
    various routine nightmares occur, each one causing us to stagger
    half-asleep down the hallway, like actors in a scene from "Night of the
    Living Dead Parents".
    
    6:12: Dawn Breaks
    
    Whenever I read newpaper stories about people who have, say, nine
    children, I never ask: "How do they manage to take care of them all?" I
    wonder: "When did they find time to conceive them all?"
    
    ****
    
    I hope you enjoyed this as much as we did - it's nice to know you're
    not alone!!
    

    Thank-you everyone for your encouragement and ideas.  We will be trying
    all of them in the next week or soomer.
    
    Please don't get me wrong about our lovely little (10 lb.) daughter. 
    We love her with all our hearts and give her tons of hugs (if only this
    made her sleep longer ??).  Yes, this is the most frustrating (to say
    the least) yet rewarding time of our lives, and we are trying to
    video tape most of it.   Nicole is healthy, WIDE awake little person 
    for which we are very thankful, believe me.  She is only 36 days old
    and changes seem to be happening overnight.  Hope she won't grow up to
    fast.
       To get back, the only time we both are involved with her are during
    the day when we are playing or doing daytime stuff.  When it comes to
    feeding/changing at night, one or the other does it.  her diapers only
    get changed, cause they are full of u know what...  Otherwise, she is
    left alone.  And changing helps occasionally, to put her back to sleep
    without a bottle....  Oh yeh, the wife likes to sing/talk when feeding 
    but I'll tell her to to try it without the noise.  Nicole seems to love
    sleeping on her tummy, and play time seems to be best on her back.  Oh
    yeh, last week we put her to sleep on her side with a pillow on her
    back, and when my wife went to take care of her in the middle of the
    night, she was on her back.   WOW.....  The kid has strong arms, I
    gotta tell ya......  
       So, I'll take all this info home to the wife and see what we can
    figure out.  We'll keep you all informed.
    
    Again, thank you very much for the answers/questions, you all probably
    know how helpful this notesfile can be
    
    don/donna
       

We have used the Ferber technique for three nights now, with great success.
Our goal was to have our 3 months old daughter go to sleep on her own, without
the 1-2 hours of rocking and walking.

We started a bedtime ritual, beginning at 7:30, consisting of bath, going
downstairs to kiss the other parent goodnight, then upstairs for 5-10 minutes
of rocking while reading a story or just discussing our day's activity.  Then,
into the crib, a final goodnight, then lights off and Mommy/Daddy leaves the
room. (We leave a night-light so we can see in the night if we need to).

The first night she cried for 35 minutes.  One of us comforted her at 5 minutes,
then 6 minutes, then 7, etc.  That was Tuesday night.

Wednesday night, same exact ritual, but with the other parent.  She cried for
less than 10 minutes, with one visit for reassurance.  (She quieted down very
quickly after being reassured; perhaps testing we were there?)

Thursday night (last night), same ritual, no crying at all.  And in addition,
she slept from 8PM until 6AM for the first time.  I ran in this morning to make
sure she was breathing.  (There was always one night feeding until last night.
She'll probably wake tonight to eat, but I take this as a sign that sleeping
thru is coming very soon.)

This was a very good experience for both my daughter *and* me.  I learned three 
things about being a parent.  First, that she is ready to start doing some
things for herself.  2-3 times in the last couple weeks she cried because she 
wanted to go to bed, instead of being rocked.  Her daycare provider had also 
noticed this at nap time.  As her awareness of the world increases, she seems 
to need more structure and schedule, perhaps to help her feel in control.  So 
I took this as a sign that *she* was ready to take over the job of going to 
sleep and that *we* should provide structure and schedule for her to work 
within.

Second, I learned that it won't kill either my daughter or me if she cries.
Before this experience, I jumped whenever she cried, sometimes when I shouldn't
have.  If there is nothing she *needs*, then it is either something she *wants*
or she is communicating something.  The crying she did the first night had a 
"What's going on here? I don't understand" sound.  The second night it sounded
more like "No rocking? Just like last night!"  Then, no crying the third night.
I didn't like leaving her to cry, even for 5 minutes, but we survived it.

The third thing I learned is that we *have* to set limits for her and then let 
her have free rein within those limits.  I knew this intellectually, but it's
hitting home now.  Having her put herself to sleep is just setting limits and,
geez, is that hard....

    We have an eight month daughter who was born 10 weeks prematurely, which 
    means that developmentally she's closer to a 5 1/2 month old.
    
    My wife and I are a bit concerned about the amount of sleep she gets
    and how she falls asleep.
    
    She's been sleeping through the night for 6-8 weeks now. For
    her, through, the night is from about 9pm to 6am.  Does that seem
    sufficient?  She naps between 2-3 hours during the day.
    
    Also, most nights, she'll cry for 5-10 minutes after we put her down. 
    Any suggestions about how we could eliminate the tears ... or whether
    we should bother trying.
    
    thanks,
    
    Gene
        

    -1  Her sleeping patterns sound very normal to me.  Actually, you're
        probably lucky she sleeps straight from 9-6.
    
        I don't know about eliminating the crying.  It doesn't last
        very long although I know I'd hate to have to hear it at all.
    
        Doesn't sound like too much of a problem at all!
    
        Donna
    

    re: .118
    
    Is your daughter happy and responsive during her waking hours?
    If yes, then I'd bet that she is getting enough sleep and that
    her sleep requirements are just less than the "average baby".
    My son (18months) has been like this since birth.  He sleeps
    from 8pm-5am plus one nap that varies from 1.5-2.5 hours.  He
    dropped from two naps to one nap at about 10 months but that total 
    amount of sleep didn't changed (about 11-12 hours/day) and hasn't
    since he was about 3 months old.   Unfortunately, some kids don't 
    seem to require much sleep (even if their parents, like me, do!)
    
    Earlier notes in this string have alot of good ideas with respect to
    creating a bedtime ritual.  These may or may not help with the bedtime
    tears.
    
    Good luck,  Carol

Chelsea, now almost 13 months, had been going to sleep around 8 at night and 
sleeping through to between 6:30 and 7 every morning, until this past week.
About 3 weeks ago she developed a double ear infection, vomiting and diarrhea, 
all of which excepts for the diarrhea cleared up in about a week after the doctor
put her on Augmentin.  Since she got well, she has also not taken her usual
morning and afternoon naps.  Sometimes she takes both, sometimes only one.  We
assume that she is beginning to phase out one nap.

Anyway, with that history, for the past week she has been going to bed a little
earlier, about 7-7:30, but has been getting up, crying, at 5:00-5:30, and 
sometimes as early as 4:00- 4:30.  This is doing nothing for Mom and Dad.  This
morning she was up at 4:21, and our plan was to just get her and try to rock 
her back to sleep, but she was screaming for her bottle. (We usually give her a
bottle when she first gets up), and then was wide awake.  To try to get some more
sleep for us, we experimented with putting her back in her crib with some of her
favorite books, and lo and behold, she fell back to sleep, and we got an extra 
hour in.

By the way, she appears to be getting her eye teeth in also.

Our question is , is she just waking up hungry and should we give her a snack 
before bed in addition to the bottle she gets, or is it her teeth bothering her, 
or is it just a phase she is going through?

Mark

    If she's waking up screaming, maybe she has another ear infection....
    they often recur, and getting more teeth is a prime breeding ground.
    
    Give lots of mashed bananas if they give you Augmentin again - it
    totally avoided the diarrhea for Ryan and he was on Augmentin many many
    times.
    

    Ok, this may already be in here somewhere, but I just don't have the
    time to read all the reply's. 
    
    Here is the problem. My daughter is 21 months old and all of a sudden,
    she is 'partying' when we put her down. What I mean is, even though she
    is tired, we put her in the crib, and she is doing high-pitch screams
    and giggles and talking to all her friends (her stuffed animals), I
    mean at her age I know she chats away all day and it must be hard to
    just stop it abruplty for bed! But, the playing in her crib used to 
    only last 1/2 hr tops. Now, we put her in and tell her,"you go night-
    nights, ok?" She says, "ya". Then 20 minutes later we will go in and
    yell at her, and tell her enough talking, go to sleep. And this is
    repeated every 20 minutes, until she has been awake 1 1/2 sometimes,
    at this point my husband and I are trying to go to sleep and we are
    getting very angry with her. We don't believe in hitting, but after
    2 weeks of yelling, we started to give her a slap over the diaper
    and she kind of laughs while your yelling at her. Like it is a game,
    I cannot see how yelling at her could be funny, but It's almost as
    if she likes the attention. Then we have tried not going in for 
    almost an hour, thinking we won't play this game. Same thing happens.
    Her eyes don't even look, like she is tryingto go to sleep. This is
    starting to happen on her daytime nap now too. My husband stays home
    and has 4 daycare kids, and by the time they are ready to get up, she
    is just starting to wind down. We cannot give her 1 1/2 hr day nap 
    up, because she is so scrabby without it, she needs that 1 nap. 
    I even started trying to tell her, that she was a bad girl for 
    still talking and that I was going to take all her stuffed animals
    away, until she went to sleep. Including Ernie, her god of the world.
    
    Any ideas, we don't want to keep yelling at her. I don't want her to
    have bad dreams because she is being yelled at right before bed time,
    or making her bedtime a scary thing. 
    
    Charlene

    
    RE: .123
    
    Personally, the only problem that I would have with the behaviour 
    you describe is the high-pitch screams.   I don't think you can 
    force a child to sleep if the child doesn't want or need to; you
    can force quiet time however.   I don't think that scolding or
    hitting your daughter is going to solve this problem as you have
    probably noticed.   Establishing a bed-time ritual (snack, bath, brush
    teeth,read books,etc), if you haven't already, may help to wind her
    down before bedtime.   Limiting sugar before bedtime may also 
    help.
    
    Good luck,
    Carol

    I would suggest removing all her 'friends' except for Ernie if she
    doesn't respond to the first few warnings.  Try to take away whatever
    it is that is entertaining her ....
    
    

    
    RE: .123
    
    This is perfectly normal and acceptable behaviour. I would not remove 
    all her little friends nore would I yell or spank her. 
    
    At bedtime, put her to bed, say your goodnights, and turn off the
    lights. This is her time alone. It is healthy for her to play in
    a solitary environment that she trusts (with all her friends).
    
    My daughter, also 21 months, has been doing the same things as yours
    for several months now and my only response to her is an aggressive
    'Goodnight' when she gets to loud. (Of course this is the catalyst for
    the starts of a few rounds of back and forth 'goodnights' :^)
    
    Same goes for afternoon naps.
    
    Otherwise ignore it and relax. She's perfectly normal.
                                 
    Doug.

    Thanks for the advice, if I could get her to stop screaming that would
    be helpful though. It is pretty distruptive when you are laying there
    trying to go to sleep, and she is chatting away. 
    
    Thanks.

    re .127
    
    Looking at it from your daughter's point of view - she screams, you
    give her some attention - OK it's angry attention but she might
    consider that better than no attention at all, then she screams some
    more, and you give her some more attention .... and so it goes on long
    into the night ....   Perhaps if you just ignored her, and stopped
    going into her room to tell her be quiet, she might get bored and stop. 
    It may take a few nights to get the message accross that if she screams
    nothing is going to happen except that her throat will get sore, she
    may stop.    My daughter (nearly two) sometimes goes in for high
    pitched shrieking (fortunately only during the day!) and if I ignore
    her, she stops pretty quickly.  Shouting at her only makes her shriek
    louder.  
    
    Just an idea - hope you get some peace and quiet soon.
    
    Janet

Resource:

Parent-Child Sleep Guide
Dept. H.
P.O. Box 13
Washington, D.C.  20044

(Have not used them, but my daycare recommended)

    I figured it best to add this here, instead of adding a new topic.
    
    We've been having problems for, well this is the fourth night in a row,
    where AJ who's 4-1/2 wakes us up between 12:30 and 2:00am requesting a
    drink.  When we tell him he's old enough to get it himself without
    waking mom and dad he becomes whiney, and begins whimpering. Ususally I
    end up getting up and taking him back downstairs.  And in fact that is
    all he wants, just a drink of water nothing else including going potty.
    He takes his drink hops back into bed and we never hear from him again
    til morning.  And that's another problem, the mornings after he is hard
    to wake up and rather grumpy.  Up till now we've had only an occational 
    middle of the night event like this, but this has been going on almost 
    a week and we're both beat.  
    
    Is this a stage that goes along with the age?  Is it something to do
    with the fact that we've started leaving his windows open slightly at
    night, sometimes leaving a small fan on low?  He has had a mild asthma
    attack since last weekend, but nothing that should be disturbing his
    sleep  My husband and I are facing some personal problems, not marital 
    fortunately, but we've tried desperately not to involve him in this.  
    In fact any discussion are done either after he's in bed or out of earshot.
    But this situation is destroying us morally, and financially, and it our 
    termoil may be apparent to him.
    
    Anyway, advise with this would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks!
    Lyn

    
    What about putting a small cup of water on a bed-side table?   Maybe
    he's afraid of getting up and getting a drink himself in the dark.
    
    Carol

    My guess is that he's picking up on your tension -- you can't hide
    it -- and his imagination is doing far worse things than the truth
    ever could.  Quite possibly not at a conscious level.  If he's not
    sleeping very soundly, he might be disturbed more easily by sounds
    outside, or maybe bad dreams are waking him, and once he's awake
    he needs reassurance you're there.  Steven asks to have his
    temperature taken under the same circumstances.  
    
    I strongly suspect that it would be better for him if you can tell
    him something that he can understand -- not necessarily about the
    problem itself, but that there is trouble, that it isn't his
    fault, that mom and dad are worried but that's not his fault
    either, and that you'll always love him and take care of him.  
    
    --bonnie

Hi,

I'm currently enjoying and learning to be a new parent.  I have a 4-month old
daughter who just loves to roll over on her back.

For the first 2 or 3 months, it was very easy, put the baby to bed on her
tummy not too long after a bottle without having to worry that she will turn
over on her back and choke from her spit up.

Now, what do we do?  We used to tuck in the sheets around the side of the crib
to keep her from rolling over but I'm afraid that they can't hold her anymore.

Is there a safe way to keep her sleeping on her tummy in her crib?  Is it safe
to use pillows on her sides?

Should we be worried at all about her turning over on her back and choking if
she spits up?

/Mario

    I had a similar discussion with my children's orthopedist when the
    girls were going through fixing the girls' hips.  (They were both born
    with hip dysplasia.)
    
    End conclusion - Orthopedically speaking, tummy is preferable.  It
    puts the hips in a better position.  However, the amount of influence
    the sleeping position has on healthy hips is almost nil.  
    
    Should you be worrying about your child choking on her back?  In my
    opinion...no.  Unless there are serious respiratory problems, a four
    month old won't choke.
    
    My one year old spent the first 4 months of her life in a body cast
    sleeping strapped to an inclined plane.  Now she sleeps every which way.  
    The only time sleep position was an issue was when she was being
    treated for the dysplasia.
    
    In summation...don't worry, be happy.  
    
    LZP
    

    
    My sister-in-law, American, lives in Japan and has 2 young children. 
    In Japan, they have the baby's sleep only on their backs right from the
    start, rather than on their stomachs as we do here in America.  I found
    that to be interesting....

    My daughter is a confirmed back-sleeper.  She slept propped under one
    side until she started turning on her own.  I figured, if nature made
    her capable of turning, nature will provide for her not choking.  You
    can't stay up all night rolling her back onto her tummy.
    
    Laura

    We used to fret constantly that Christopher *MUCH* preferred to sleep
    on his back (and still does).  Convinced that he'd choke to death, we
    spent endless sleepless nights turning him back over.  By the time
    Jason was born, we were just too tired to bother, and he did fine.  I
    think if we had left poor Christopher alone, we'd all been much happier
    for it.  
    
    I think it's all a bunch of hype (unless, of course, the baby's
    obviously obstructed) .... just one more of those things for nervous
    moms!
    
    Patty

    I've always been of the impression that keeping babies on their side
    for sleeping is only suggested for the first couple weeks. After that,
    their natural sleep position should be used (back or front) and the
    likelihood of choking is not really an issue.
    
    

    When you're lying on your back, your head usually turns to one
    side or another anyway, so if you did spit up, it would be to the
    side, not straight up.
    
    Although anyone, child or adult, can inhale vomit and choke on it. 
    But it's a freak accident when it happens.  
    
    --bonnie

    I was hoping I'd never have to enter a note in the "Sleep Problems"
    topic, but it looks as though my luck has changed.
    
    Some background:
    
    Allyson is 20 months old and has never had sleep problems.  She
    began sleeping through the night when she was about 3 weeks old
    and yes, I'm spoiled.  What started happening this week is that
    she seems to be waking up at odd hours wanting to play.  Monday
    night I went into her room at 10:30 to turn off her air-conditioner
    and found her sitting in her crib with all of her animals lined
    up giving them a "lecture".  As soon as she saw me she wanted to
    get out and screamed at the top of her lungs until I gave in.
    At 11:00 she was still not showing any signs of being sleepy, so
    we let her sleep in our bed.  After 5 minutes my husband got out
    and went to sleep on the sofa in the living room.  Unfortunately,
    I had to stay and listen to her sing til 1:00.  Then my husband
    took over (I begged) and watched TV with her til she fell asleep
    at 3:00.  There was absolutely no other way to get her to go to
    sleep.  Then, last night she woke up at 3:20 yelling for me and
    when I got to her room, she demanded that I take her out of her
    crib.  She started dancing in her room and wanted to push around
    her grocery cart.  I started to cry...  My husband went back out
    on the sofa and I, once again, brought her into our bed.  This time
    she fell asleep after about a 1/2 hour, but I didn't dare pick her
    up to move her back into her crib.  Instead, I dealt with her little
    snore and her constant migration to my side of the bed.  One thing
    my sitter and I noticed though is that both times she woke up so
    energized was after she had shorter naps than usual during the day.
    This, I find very odd.  Her nap yesterday was only about an hour
    and a half.  On the nights she sleeps really well, she's had a
    3-4 hour nap at the sitter's house.  I would think it would be the
    exact opposite.  Any ideas for how I should handle this?  I truly
    do not want to create a pattern where she sleeps in my bed every
    night, but have I already screwed up by letting her do it last night?
    All I know is that I want to nip this in the bud...  NOW!
    
    Any advice is appreciated - sorry to be so lengthy.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Kathryn,
    
    The "solution" depends on what you view as the "problem"...I'll share
    what's worked for us.
    
    When Katie was born, I'd nurse her to sleep, and put her in her crib.  If
    she woke, I'd bring her into bed with us, and nurse her back to sleep. 
    She did not wake every night, and from about 6-15 months, almost never
    did.  Somewhere between 15-18 months, she started waking again, and,
    again, she'd come into bed and I'd nurse her to sleep.  About 18-20
    months, she started getting really squirmy, to the point where she was
    the only one getting a good nights sleep.  She was told that she had a
    "special spot" on the floor next to Mommy, and if she'd lay there, I'd
    pat her back...if she protested and wanted to get in bed, I told her
    she had two choices, her room, or her "spot".  After two nights of 2am
    arguments, she settled into it...and if she woke up, she came in to our
    room, and lay down in her "spot" without waking us.
    
    Around 2 1/2, she started going to bed by herself, when she was
    tired...sometimes in her own room, sometimes in her "spot"...she's
    three, now, and elects to sleep on the floor next to us about 2/3 of
    the time.  She generally goes to bed between 8:30 and 9:30, when she's
    tired.
    
    This works for us...some people might define this as "sleep
    problems"...i.e the child in your room is a problem...for us, its been
    the answer.
    
    So, for us, when "the problem" was child waking=mommy losing sleep...we
    brought her to bed...when that evolved to child squirming=mommy losing
    sleep...we moved her to the floor. (Some people get a bigger bed, or
    futon). 
    
    Just my experience.  Hope you get a good night's sleep soon.
    
    Susan
    

re: .140

>    I truly
>    do not want to create a pattern where she sleeps in my bed every
>    night, but have I already screwed up by letting her do it last night?

That ain't the question.  Even if you did screw up, that doesn't mean that you 
need to continue to screw up.

I think you'll probably get your answer from the previous 139 replies, and 
from some of the references that are mentioned in them.  But one thing I'd 
like to reiterate: 

	   Whatever you decide on, make sure that it has been
	   discussed thoroughly with your husband.  Hopefully,
	   the two of you will agree on the approach to use.

	   If you agree to let her "cry it out", you will need
	   the support to keep from (1) losing the handle, and 
	   going in and shouting or spanking her or (2) giving in.
	   Believe me that it is very, very, difficult to refrain
	   the first couple of nights.

	   If you don't agree, then at least there won't be a need
	   to "beg", and there won't be any need for midnight 
	   negotiations.  Either your husband will have agreed to 
	   help, or you will be on your own, and know it.


Clay

>	   Whatever you decide on, make sure that it has been
>	   discussed thoroughly with your husband.  Hopefully,
>	   the two of you will agree on the approach to use.
    
    Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  Following the Ferber method is difficult
    enough, but without your spouse's support, it's impossible.  Especially
    at 2 a.m.
    
    Also, another suggestion is to start any Ferber-type solution on a
    Friday night, NOT in the middle of the week.
    
    Deb

    .141 sounds like a great way to handle it (my kudos!) if that's how you
    end up addressing it.
    
    The few times Ryan ever did this - we'd whisper that it was night time,
    time to sleep and not play, and leave the room ASAP.
    
    A side note - I really believe that daylight savings times has
    something to do with it, especially with our approaching the longest
    day of the year.  Ryan's staying awake later in the evening, and waking
    much earlier in the morning - longer naps some days, but definitely on
    the grouch side. I'd say his time clock has gone awry, and I wuold
    hazard a guess that it might be plaguing your Allyson as well.
    
    best of luck,
    

    Lynn,
    
    Oh, I definately agree that daylight savings time played a part
    because ever since April, it's been impossible to get her to
    go to sleep any earlier than about 8:30.  Before then, she went
    to sleep faithfully every night at 7:30.  I don't mind her staying
    up later, though...  It's this wanting to play at 3:00 am that
    has me the most concerned.
    
    Deb,
    
    A Friday night would definately be the best night to put any plan
    into action, but if I know Ally, she'll wait til Sunday night to
    pull this stunt again.  It's almost like she knows...
    
    Everybody else:
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.  I hope I can work this thing out.  If
    it was an every night occurence, I'd feel more confident in handling
    the situation the same way each time.  But since she appears to be
    so sporadic in "working the night-shift", I'm just going to have to
    play it by ear.  Looks like my husband and I will be busy formulating
    plan A, Plan B, Plan C, etc...
    
    - Kathryn
    

    The pattern IS starting. I suggest you set the limits and stick with 
    them. Why does she HAVE to sleep?  She can only screech for so long
    before she learns it will have no effect on keeping you up all night.
    Of course it MAY keep you up some nights until she tires of it.
    
    I am not suggesting you ignore legitimate needs.  I am suggesting
    you ignore whiny manipuative behavior in the middle of the night.
    
    Jeff

    If it only happens on Sunday nights, perhaps the problem isn't
    sleep at all but some stress or concern about the coming week.
    
    Also, David, who is also 20 months and has also been a sound
    sleeper all his little life, has started not going to sleep very
    well and to get up after he's put in bed, etc., so it might be
    connected to the age.  He seems to have just realized that when he
    goes to bed, he's missing out on a lot of excitement. 
    
    He also recently switched to sharing a bunk bed with his brother,
    which is a little earlier than I really wanted to start him in a
    bed, but it's workign out well. 
    
    But hey, big brother is sleeping like a log all night and going to
    bed without a fuss for the first time ever.  He even slept through
    all this weekend's thunderstorms -- this from the kid who usually
    spends thunderstorms in a sleeping bag in our room.  Went to bed
    in the middle of a storm with never a peep.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    I found what Bonnie said interesting: now that her older son has
    company while sleeping, he'll even sleep through t-storms. 
    
    Saturday night my 3.5-yr-old slept over at his friend's house
    for the second time. In the evening we had a t-storm that wouldn't
    quit, and I was sure I'd get a call from the other family saying
    "better come get him, he's a basket case". (At home, he finds 
    thunder *the* scariest thing in the world.) Sunday morning I called
    them and found out the boys had gone happily to sleep in the middle 
    of the storm, and although they talked about it, neither seemed the
    least concerned. So it seems like having company did my son wonders,
    too.
    
    My son's experiences, plus Jeff Gilman's and others' experiences,  make
    me wonder whether some kids just aren't suited to sleeping alone. I
    think we set ourselves (and them) up for problems if we assume that all
    kids should be able to sleep alone all the time. 
    
    Lucy

    re: .148
    
    Lucy, 
    
    Yes, that's exactly why we decided to go for the bunk bed and
    convert Steven's room to a joint play room.  
    
    Steven used to go practically hysterical when he saw the
    thunderstorms coming (partly worried that the lighting would start
    a fire, his other big fear), but this time he didn't even notice. 
    He went to bed with lighting snapping and crackling outside, and
    was asleep in ten minutes. 
    
    We had tried to make allowances as much as we could for his fear
    and loneliness, but we like our own (marital) privacy too --
    having them willing to share was very nearly ideal.  Except for
    this slight problem getting David to go to sleep at night :)
    
    --bonnie

    Well, the news is good - so far, anyway...  It was kind of
    fortunate for us that my daughter decided to do her wake-up
    thing on Friday so we could put our plan into action.  My
    husband and I were in total agreement on how to handle it,
    so that when 12:30 am rolled around and Allyson started to
    cry, I waited a full 10 minutes before I went into her room.
    She immediately stopped crying because she thought I was going
    to take her out of her crib.  Wrong!  I very quietly explained
    that it was nighttime and she should be sleeping.  As soon as
    she heard the word "sleep" she went beserk.  It was all I could
    do to keep from laughing out loud.  She really was quite comical.
    Well, she cried for a solid hour and then just off and on from
    1:30 til 2:00, but then she exhausted herself and fell asleep.
    She didn't wake up Saturday night, or Sunday, or Monday.  I'm
    keeping my fingers crossed that we can put these episodes behind
    us.  One thing I have to mention though...  On Friday night after
    I left her room, she kept calling "Mommy!  Mommy!"  Then, when
    she realized I wasn't about to come back, she cried for "Daddy!".
    When it soon became evident that he wasn't going to rescue her
    either, she began to cry out, "Ernie!  Ernie!  Out, Out, OUT!"
    The Ernie she was referring to is the one we all know and love
    from Sesame Street.  It was around then that she fell asleep.
    Maybe Ernie rescued her in her dreams...  :-)
    
    - Kathryn
    

    I need help (and a good nights sleep :-))
    
    Bed time at our house is a nightmare.  I have a 3.5 year old and a 2
    year old.  The 3.5 year old will NOT go to bed alone.  Every night I or
    my husband has to lay down with her- when we think we finally have her
    asleep and we get up to leave she wakes up and not only cries but
    screams.  We've tried putting her in her room and letting her cry-
    she'll go on for 45 minutes to an hour!  This isn't always easy.  When
    she finally goes to sleep every night at about 1:00 or 2:00am she
    comes to our room and gets in the bed with us.  I've tried making her
    sleep on the floor, going back to her room with her, closing doors
    nothing works!  My two year old goes to bed between 8-8:30 and is 
    no problem at all.
    
    It seems we've created a monster!
    
    cindy
    

    re.151  -- Can you determine WHY she is crying?  Is she afraid, lonely,
    not sleepy, or what? Is this behaviour new?  
    
    Have you tried latting them sleep together in the same room?  The two
    kids I mean.  Perhaps that would help.
    
    

    You haven't created a monster, you've just got one of what I'm
    convinced is a large number of kids who don't like to sleep alone.
    Some of the other notes in this string record our struggles with
    our now-7-year-old insomniac.  He's now sleeping like a log every
    night with no struggles since we let him share a bedroom with his
    little brother.  Fortunately little brother seems to share the
    same attitude. 
    
    Would it be possible to experiment with having her share the room
    with her younger sibling?
    
    --bonnie

    .152
    There doesn't appear to be any reason for the crying.  At one point she
    was doing great going to bed with no hassle and staying all night, on
    these wonderful occasions we would "reward" her in the mornings.  She
    was so proud of herself and we made a big to do over it.  Then I'm not
    sure what happened- but it all started over again.
    
    .153
    I've thought about the two of them sleeping together, but to be real
    honest they don't get along real well (yet), they have their moments of
    sisterly love however they are few and far between.  I'm also afraid
    that the older one will keep the younger up and she'll get into this
    habbit.  Maybe I will give it a shot when I'm off for vacation.
    
    No, she has never been a real good sleeper.  We've had problems since
    day one!  We used to kid each other that maybe when she turns 10 she'll
    sleep through the night.  Last night we tried locking our door and
    putting the baby monitor in the hall so we could hear what was going
    on-needless to say she got up and walked into our door started
    screaming and woke up the baby- now the two of them are screaming at
    the top of their lungs!  I ended up laying in her bed with her and the
    baby fell right back to sleep.
    
    Cindy
    

    	re: .154
    
    We were afraid of that too (big one waking up little one) but so
    far it hasn't been as much of a problem as we'd feared.  A time or
    two Steven (the older) did wake David (the baby) up, and the first
    time it took David a while to get back to sleep, but after that,
    he just looks at his big brother, nods, turns over, and goes back
    to sleep.  David wakes up earlier in the morning, and sometimes
    wakes Steven up early, too, and I think that's part of why
    Steven's now going to bed a little earlier.
    
    They don't seem to need a whole lot of love to handle the shared
    bedroom, just enough lack of ill will to keep from deliberately
    waking each other up in the middle of the night.  These two are
    like any other sibling pair -- at any given moment, they're
    equally likely to be:
    
    a.  Hugging each other
    b.  Playing peacefully together
    c.  Trying to kill each other
    d.  Ignoring each other
    e.  Planning or executing some joint mischeif.
    
    Something that used to help Steven before he even had a little
    brother was if we left him to quiet himself down with some books
    and music -- he had his own record player and some records he
    could choose, and he could amuse himself until he got tired.  The
    rule was, as long as he was quiet.  That worked pretty well except
    on panic nights.
    
    --bonnie

    
    Re: .153
    
    >> You haven't created a monster, you've just got one of what I'm
    >> convinced is a large number of kids who don't like to sleep alone.
    
    So true ... 
    Here is my experience ...
    
    After two years and many many sleepless nights of fighting (coaxing, 
    threatening, ignoring, explaining, ferberizing etc. etc.) with Rasika 
    to have her sleep in her room, my husband and I told her that it was
    O.K. for her to come to our bed when she woke up in the middle of the
    night.
    
    Her sleep problems ended immediately. Before, she never wanted to go to
    bed and bedtime was a struggle every single day.  Now she goes to bed
    IN HER ROOM happily (unless we have company!).  When she woke up in
    the middle of the night, she used to cry rather loudly.  Now she just
    walks over to our bed, jumps in and goes right back to sleep. This is
    usually around 3 am.  She used to be up at 6:00 am. Now she can sleep
    until 8 am.  Before, she would wake up at the slightest noise.   We
    would tip-toe and whisper after she went to bed.  Now, she sleeps 
    soundly in our bed while we get dressed (hair dryer etc) around her in
    the morning.  Many nights, she sleeps soundly in her own bed all night. 
    What a change ... What a relief.
    
    By the way, Rasika is now 3 and we started this when she was 2. The
    funny thing is that we made all these changes about 2 weeks before  I
    was going to have a second child.  I have heard about children's
    sleeping habits deteriorating with the birth of a sibling.  We found
    that exactly the opposite happened.  All this has convinced me about
    what Bonnie said - some kids just do not like to sleep alone".
    
    The ironic part is that the family bed (until the child is about  6 or
    so) is a rather routine thing in many families in India (where my
    husband and I grew up). But, I had resisted the idea, based on what I
    was hearing from friends here and books that were anti-family bed.  I
    was trying to do the "When in Rome, do what the Romans do" philosophy. 
    Since then, I have found other documentation  that talks about the
    merits of the family bed.  
    
    Anyway, we have a system now that works for us and with which I am
    philosophically comfortable.
    
    By the way, the baby (Bhavika, now almost one) has always slept by
    herself in her crib in her room,  quite soundly thro' the night since
    she was 3 months old.  I did not do anything different with her that I
    did not do with Rasika.  I think they are just different.
    
    						Pam	

    My little boy Christopher is now 7 1/2 months old.... he's never really
    started   sleeping through the night (there were 3 nights when he was
    about 5 months... but no more ). For about 5 or 6 weeks he's not been
    wanting a night feed but his sleeping habits have become worse and
    worse.... generally asleep 8-8:30-ish, wakes anytime from 11pm to 1pm
    and then every hour (or maybe every two hours if we're really lucky!).
    
    When he wakes he's not hungry or wet, in fact there doesn't really seem
    much wrong with him at all.... all he seems to want is a very quick
    (like 4 or 5 mouthfuls of water) and sometimes his pacifier. I can hear
    the Ferber advocates thinking "well leave him to cry" but my experience
    is that if I get to him quickly enough and provide the required
    drink/assurance he goes straight off to sleep (well... temporarily),
    but if I leave him to yell then he will be wide awake within 5 minutes.
    
    In desperation (I've been back at work since he was 4 months old) I
    finally went to the doctor who said it sounded as if he was just
    forming a habit of waking and prescribed some medicine called
    vallergan. One teaspoon of this should help hime sleep through, and
    then having got out of his habit all should be well... so says theory!
    However,  in reality Christoper has  slept through til 6am once, and
    through til 4am once in the last 5 days... the rest have been as
    unpredictable as usual. I've spoken the the doctor who's told me to
    drop the medicine for 2-3 days then increase the dose and try again for
    another 2-3 days. I'm loathe to use the stuff but at the moment it
    seems like the only option.....  does anyone have any ideas or
    suggestions???
                             
    help!!!... a very sleepy Ann !
    
    P.S. I don't think Christopher is one of the babies needing very little
    sleep that you've menbtioned in earlier notes... if he has a really
    rough night he'll be asleep straight after breakfast and have another 2
    naps later in the day.

    
    Okay, so here's a Ferber advocate telling you what you already
    know :-).  If you get to him quickly enough every hour (!?!#*),
    you can prevent him from waking fully, but you are not correcting
    the problem and will probably continue to have to settle him for
    a good long time.  If you haven't actually read the book, I'd 
    suggest you do as it is a rather convincing one.
    
    I personally wouldn't give my child medication to help him sleep 
    through the night (with the except of cold medicines when he's 
    ill).   Again, you haven't really corrected the problem.
    
    For what it's worth, I've come by my opinions the hard way...we were
    up with our son near every night for 10-11 months!  In fact, I think
    I'm the author of this basenote!  Life is much sweeter on a good 
    night's sleep...
    
    Carol

    
    I didn't mean to sound sceptical of the Ferber techniques... honestly!
    
    Not having read the book could one of the "enlightened" amoungst you
    please explain whether leaving him to cry (even when this would
    probably leave me with   a very wide-awake little boy!) is the right
    approach? I find it very difficult to leave him crying because he gets
    into such a state and gets so hot and bothered... it also doesn't help 
    that he spent the first 3 weeks of his life in an intensive-care
    unit...I just feel so bad leaving him.
    
    Again, I'm not sceptical.. just curious.. there is a school of thought
    in books that I've read over here in England that states "going immediately
    to oa baby who is crying will not spoil the child... in fact, it is
    likely to make them cry less since they feel more secure" ... obviously
    that conflicts very much with Ferber... can anyone comment?
    
    Have any fellow Brits found Ferbers book over here? I'd certainly be
    interested to read it but so far I haven't managed to find it anywhere.
    
    Ann

    Hi,
    
    A few thoughts in response to you (nothing new, really):
    
    a.  Get Ferber's book.  It has an excellent scientific explanation of
    sleep in children that would help you understand what's happening.
    
    b.  Ferber extensively explains how to deal with sleep problems.  (Your
    child's problem is very mild, btw.)
    
    c.  By 7 months I don't think you have to be as fast in responding, at
    least not every time.  A child that age can begin to cope with some
    frustration, imho.
    
    d.  What Ferber says, is that children go through sleep cycles every 90
    minutes.  Between each cycle, the child nears awake consciousness.  It
    is common to actually wake briefly at this point.  (That's generally
    when we trot to the w.c., and don't even remember in the morning.)  The
    goal is to let the child learn to fall back asleep without help. 
    Basically, you let Junior cry 5 minutes, then go in and reassure
    without removing Junior from bed.  Then 10 minutes.  Then 20 minutes. 
    etc.  The second night, you START at 8 minutes, then go in at 16, then
    24, etc.  You want to acclimatize Junior to doing it on his own. 
    Within 3 to 5 nights (often sooner) he gets the idea and doesn't cry
    for you in the night.
     
    e.  Part of the problem is falling asleep with a pacifier.  When it
    falls out during sleep, Junior can't fall back asleep without it.  So
    YOU must do it.  Hence, if you can get him to fall asleep without the
    pacifier, you will go a long way to eliminating the problem.  That
    means no pacifier at bed time.  Junior must learn to go to bed awake,
    without a pacifier, and go to sleep with just his stuffed animal for
    company, or a favorite blanket, if anything.
    
    f.  I've been using these techniques, and they work.  My daughter's
    habit is to cry for up to 10 minutes before falling asleep.  As long as
    its under 10 minutes, and diminishing, I am not concerned.  I think she
    is letting out some excess energy before she sleeps.  She is also
    trying to get me to come back and pick her up.  Not much hope of that. 
    I guess she's ever optimistic, "dream on".
    
    g.  You must believe that your child CAN sleep through, that your child
    is old enough (6 months or older), and that YOU deserve a full night's
    sleep.  You owe it to yourself.
    
    Laura

    
    Laura,
    
    Good synopsis of Ferber's techniques.  Thanks.  There's other thing
    that I'd add that is probably in this note string somewhere and that
    is the bedtime ritual (you touch on it in e.)    Try to set up a 
    bedtime ritual for Junior that is the same, or very similar, each
    night....something like bath/wash-up, change into pajamas, brush
    teeth, read book(s), goodnight kiss, then put Junior to bed awake.
    
    Carol

    An advantage of the nightly bath-change-read-sing-goodnight routine
    (with minimal variations) is that Junior will travel well.  We keep
    this up as much as possible, and have had pretty good luck with Ilona
    sleeping in her cousin's crib in New York, and in a porta-crib at a
    party.  It helps minimize the differences in environment.  The only big
    variation is that I come back to reassure her after 5 minutes, since
    she is in a strange place and I don't want her to feel too frightened.
    
    (At the party, I didn't bathe her, but we did spend several minutes
    sitting together and singing.)
    
    Laura

re: .157, .159

     Thanks of letting us know where you're from.  Much as we'd like to
believe that 

     -    effective child rearing techniques are universal, and 

     -    that there's a "right" way to do things, just waiting to be
                discovered by a Ferber, Spock, Brazleton, or Leach, 

the reality is that there are lot of theories out there, very few of which
work in ALL situations.  Some of these theories become almost universal
practices in some geographies and/or cultures, but are debunked, or regarded
with horror in other geographies, and/or cultures. 
     We were successful with a Ferber type technique (at least I think so,
we still haven't actually read the book) with our then three year old
daughter shortly before the birth of our son.  Getting her to go to sleep
had become a very burdensome 45 minute to one hour ritual AFTER we had gotten
her in bed, read her a story, turned out the light, etc.        
     Note also that to some extent you are talking about YOUR sleep patterns
as well as your son's.  We went through a period of time when our daughter
would fuss when she couldn't locate her pacifier.  I don't remember the
intervals; it was a few times a night, but lessa than every every hour.
Well, we devleoped the ability to get out of bed, find the pacifier, put it
in her mouth, and go back to bed without ever fully waking up, sometimes
without even being concious of it.  And it's entirely possible that you would
wake up when your son fusses, whether or not you go in there and do anything
about it.
     One thing I would suggest is that you ask your pediatrician a little
more about "vallergan", or perhaps better still, get a guide to medicines and
look it up yourself.  "Vallergan" sound suspiciously like "Allergan" which
is an allergy medicine -- either an antihistamine or decongestant, or both.
For most people, antihistamines and decongestants tend to induce drowsiness,
so they are sometimes prescribed for this side effect.  But they affect some 
people differently.  Antihistamines make my daughter absolutely hyper, while 
they tend to make me sleep restlessly.
         
Clay

Our son falls asleep when his tired and we carry him and put him to bed. Last
night, for the first time (at 20 months) he dragged his mum into the bedroom
and asked to be put in his cot (crib to you U.S. folks).

We would never let him cry for more than a few seconds. For one he may have had
an accident (fallen out of cot, trapped in some way, etc..) or he may be sick
or just wants company. Same applies during the day.

/Dave.

    thanks for the replies everyone...
    
    		I think I may invest in "the book" - last nighing rather
    frustrated by about 4am. so I went into Christopher for the "last" time
    just to check that there was no real problem (earlier that night I'd
    found him head down his cot and almost sideways across it - needless to
    say this prduced screams because he was stuck!) and then deafened
    myself to his screams. The reassuring part for me was that the screams
    were definitely in temper (funny.. I never thought you could tell until
    I had him) and he would stop every so often just to listen out to see
    if I was coming back. So after 15 minutes he stopped and I just tiptoed
    in to chcek that he wasn't upside down again!
    
    I think someone hit the nail on the haed when they said that half of
    the problem was convincing myself that he CAN sleep through the
    night..... but I'm working on it!
    
    	Keep your fingers crossed that the improvement continues... my
    inlaws arrive at the weekend to stay for a week and my mother-in-law
    can make me feel totally incapable at being a mum without even trying.
    I'm hoping there won't be any confontations, but I just know that if
    Christopher wakes and she goes to him then he'll be up playing within
    the next 10 seconds!!!... it's happened before!
    
    Thanks again,
    
    	Ann

    Ann,
    
    Good luck with your inlaws.  I humbly recommend that you be firm with
    your mother-in-law, "Mother, I know that it is difficult to listen to
    him crying in his cot at night.  But Husband and I have decided it is
    time for him to learn to sleep through.  If you hear him cry, please do
    not go in because that will defeat the process we are working on.  We
    will listen to him, and if we think he needs checking, WE will take
    care of it.  He is old enough to learn this now, and I need my sleep
    very badly since I've returned to work.  If you are very disturbed, I
    would prefer that you wake me or Husband, rather than Baby."
    
    Laura

    Re in-laws,outlaws, or whatever...
    
    I have found that a statement such as "The doctor recommends..."
    depersonalizes and defuses the situation.  Its somewhat of a cop out,
    but it works fairly well with my mother.  She then talks about how the
    "experts" are always changing their minds, and it takes the focus off
    our differences.
    
    Susan

Anne,

	If you are questioning some of the methods described here, see if you
can get a copy of the U.S. program 20/20 from a few months ago. It is a news
magazine show. In the segment I am talking about, the film crew stayed with
a family for several days to capture the results of the "let him learn how
to go to sleep by himself" method (there is another note in here somewhere
discussing the show). As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Might also help with your in-law.

	I'd offer you my copy but it is loaned out already, with a waiting
list 3 deep.

						Mark

    Ann,
    
    I have seen the Ferber book in W H Smiths, so you can get it in
    England.  A friend of mine got the book recently - she was 8.5 months
    pregnant and wanted to stop her two year old from waking up three or
    four times a night, before the new baby arrived.  Apparantly she
    followed the advice in the book, and it worked, and now she also knows
    what to do with the new baby in order to encourage good sleep habits.
    
    I haven't read the book, but I think I understand the gist of it, and
    used a similar technique to get my daughter go to sleep without being
    rocked (I think she was about 6 months old at the time), and the
    technique does work. When I used this technique I didn't feel that I
    was leaving Alison to cry, because I keep going back into the room. 
    Penelope Leach sums it up in Baby & Child.  Each time you go back in
    you're giving the message "There is no need to cry, you aren't deserted,
    we will always come if you need us, but it's not playtime now, it's time
    for you to go to sleep".
    
    Hope this helps, and hope you get a good night's sleep soon
                                                
    - Janet

    Marc is almost 21-months and, with very rare exceptions, he always goes
    to sleep with no problems.  But lately, he's been waking up during the
    night once or twice.  After a few minutes of listening to high-pitched
    screams, interspersed with strategic pauses, and some Ma-Ma's thrown in
    for good measure, I go in to see what's going on.  He's always standing
    up in his crib holding his teddy bear, looking at the door.  As soon as
    he sees me, he stops crying.  He tells me everything is OK, he agrees
    that he needs to go back to sleep, I lay him back down, and he goes
    right back to sleep.  Occasionally, it happens again in a few hours,
    but usually not.  
    
    We're all getting very tired.  How do I make him stop doing this?
    
    We've noticed that the incidences of this behavior seem to increase
    after we get back from being away from home (not my husband and me, all
    of us) visiting relatives, etc.  Could this be related?

    I couldn't find anything about this topic, if it's out there
    please excuse. We are at our wits end concerning our soon to
    be 3 year old waking up in the middle of the night for sometimes
    2 to 3 hours screaming off and on to come in our bed, wants to
    get up. Calls out to Mom and if mom doesn't answer then it's dad
    who gets the call. I have tried ignoring, I have tried going in just
    one time to make sure she was allright. Nothing is working, and I 
    mean nothing. Last night was a nightmare and we started at 1:30 and
    she never fell asleep till 3:30. (note:she only takes a 1/2 nap to
    1 hour nap every day). Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    P.S. We also have a 10 month old who shares a room with the older one.
    She usually sleeps through the screaming, last night nothing doing 
    Both ended up screaming at the same time. 
    
    

    We experience this off an on for over a year now.  AJ is 4.5.  Usually
    just getting up after letting him lay with us for a couple minutes, and
    I mean no more than 5 minutes!  Taking him back to his room giving him
    a small glass of water, giving him the opportunity to go potty and a
    couple minutes of a backrub, while saying little or nothing to him, and
    in a low, quiet voice if you must speak.
    
    I'm guessing your 3 year old is still in a crib and not trained?  I'd
    suggest when you hear him screaming take a small cup of water in, and
    after he drinks it, lay him down (check or change the diaper if needed)
    and rub his back for a couple minutes.  Just a modification of what I
    do now.
    
    Has there been some change or turmoil in you life recently?  We found
    that his middle of the night awakenings usually coordinated with some
    tense period in our life, even something as silly as me being irritable
    from PMS, or an overheard disagreement between hubby and I.  I tend to
    use a loud voice when we disagree even over minor things it may be
    upsetting to him.
    
    Lyn

    This is for a neighbor who has 4 children, the youngest of which is
    13 months. She breast-fed all of them and the first 3 weaned themselves
    between 8-11 months without any problems. She's trying to wean Justin,
    (the youngest) and is having problems with him waking at night. She
    said he was up for 2 hours the other night just crying. She said he's
    only been sleeping through the night for the last couple of months. I
    asked how she used to get him back to sleep and she said she nursed
    him. She also still nurses him to sleep at bedtime. I gave her my copy
    of Ferber; any other suggestions?
    Thanks,
    Sue
    

    Thanks for the advice, she is actually in a bed and has been trained
    since 1 years old.... since I put this message in i put a night light
    in her room and we have stopped afternoon naps. Right now, we are 3
    nights into full sleeping. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
    

    re: .173
    
    I don't know if any of these apply to your neighbor's kid:
    
    When either my daughter or my youngest son did that, it meant they
    were hungry and hadn't had enough to eat the day before.  I made
    sure they had a snack (usually cereal, graham crackers, or a
    banana) before bedtime, and that usually solved the problem.
    
    Steven was just lonely or scared or whatever. He's a sociable type
    and if he woke up enough to realize he was alone, he'd cry until
    somebody came in to comfort him.  And sometimes he was cold.  
    
    --bonnie

    My little girl is funny. She's 5 months and a real creature of habit.
    She usually sleeps like a log with no problem at all. Well, a couple of
    weeks ago for 2 or 3 nights she tossed and turned and woke up a couple
    of times. She just couldn't get settled. She's had a bunny in her crib
    since she's been born and I had moved it to the bottom of the crib
    because she was untying the ribbons on it, etc. I put it back where it
    usually was and she settled down immediately and that was that. Well,
    last weekend I washed her bumpers from her crib and that night she did
    the same thing. She just doesn't like change. (She better never get a
    job at DEC : ^ ))))
    

    I have a 4 1/2 month old daughter, who needs to sleep on her stomach
    due to a REFLUX problem she has.  I have been letting her fall asleep
    either in her chair or on the couch with me. Due to the fact I need to
    lay her on her stomach.  I have read some of the
    other notes on sleeping and find that you should put your baby in 
    the crib before he\she is actually asleep.  Now, my question is what
    do I do?  I want her to start getting used to falling asleep in there.
    I am just nervous to let her sleep on her back.
    
    Any suggestions would be great!!!!
    
    
    Thanks Kim.
    
    

    If your daughter can fall asleep in her chair, I'm guessing you're
    referring to something like a Kangarockaroo, would you be able to put
    her in chair and all?  The hospitals frequently do this for both reflux
    kids, and the kids with breathing difficulties who need to sleep
    somewhat in an upright position.  Have you considered elevating the
    head of her mattress, perhaps by lowering the bottom part a notch or
    two?  Or what we used to do is "preheat" the mattress by putting a
    heating pad where she would be laying, on a LOW setting, and removing
    the pad just as you put her down, still somewhat awake, and rub her
    back till she went to sleep fully.  
    
    At least that's what worked for us, and our Reflux.
    Lyn

    HELP!!!  My 13 month old is waking once during the night
    at least 3 times per week -- this has been going on for
    the past 2 - 3 months!  First the pedi thought it was
    nightmares, then teeth, now we're completely confused--
    she's had numerous "ear checks" and she is perfectly
    healthy  (not to mention the fact that she hasn't gotten
    any teeth in the past 3 months).  We are now in the "letting 
    her cry it out"
    phase...which is driving dad and me NUTS! 
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions and/or is anyone going
    through a similar situation. 
    
    Thanks,
    Sheryl

    Help is Right ! The bad news is that my son is 35 months old, and still
    waking and coming downstairs 4/5 times per week. I, too, would be
    interested in any possible solutions !
    
    Leeann
    

    Ryanne (21 months) still wakes up atleast once, sometimes two or three
    times a night. She started this around 13 months.  At first I would get 
    up with her, hold her, rock her, whatever to get her to go back to sleep.
    Then I started doing some research.  
    
    Young children have different sleep patterns than adults.  Young children 
    go through several cycles of light sleep, deep sleep and waking.  I think 
    adults go through one cycle per night (parents excluded).  It is during
    the wake stage that Ryanne was crying out.  There was nothing wrong
    with her.  She was awake and was alone, hence she cried.
    
    It is VERY important that children learn to comfort themselves.  By
    going to her in the night, I was taking away from her the opportunity
    to learn this.  So, I helped her learn to comfort herself.  The
    first couple of nights were tough.  (Starting over the weekend helped.)
    
    Basically, when she woke up and started to cry, I went to her, talked
    to her for a minute to reasure her that she was not alone, covered her,
    gave her Ducky and left her.  I did all of this in the dark.  I would
    return to my bed and wait five minutes the first time.  If she was
    still crying, I would repeat my visit with her and return to bed to
    wait ten minutes the next time.  The point of the visit was to reasure
    her that I was in the house, and that if there really was something
    wrong, I would be there.
    
    The first night I was up three times, visiting her two or three times
    before she would settle back to sleep.  The next night was harder; she
    seemed to be rebelling, and would stand up in the crib, trying to climb
    up my arms.  The books all said DO NOT PICK THE CHILD UP.  So I didn't.
    Thankfully, Sunday night she was so tired she only woke a couple of
    times and went right back to sleep.
    
    After the first week or so, she settled into the sleep pattern she has
    now.  She goes willingly to bed and only fusses if there is a
    disturbance upstairs during that first half hour or so of settling in. 
    (Disturbance is defined as a light being turned on or a sudden noise.)
    She sleeps through almost any disturbance after that first half hour. 
    She cries out once or twice during the night.  I can now distinguish
    from the cry whether I need to help her find Ducky or if she needs
    covers or if she'll go right back to sleep.  She contently talks to
    Ducky in the crib in the morning for atleast a half hour, without
    demanding to get up.  During the week she almost resents being taken
    out of bed before she has her wake-up chat.
    
    While researching, I came across the following thought: 
    
    As parents, you can control only two things regarding your child's
    sleep: when they go to bed and when they are allowed to get out of bed.
    The child controls when they go to sleep and when they wake up.

I have a different view.

Evan was what our breastfeeding instructor called a "barracuda baby".
He ate and ate and ate, and ate quickly.  *whoosh!  He sucked down that
milk.  When he was in the hospital, his first week of life (when they are
not supposed to be hungry - HA!), I breastfed him during the day, but
at night they ordered me home (rough labor, I was pretty weak), and they
bottle fed him breastmilk from a friend of mine.  This newborn drank
over 40 ounces of milk in that time (they expected him to drink 2-4 ounces
at a time, and he drank 8 ounces at a time)!

Consequently, it wasn't too surprising for me to find out that as Evan
got older he would wake up hungry.  As a matter of fact, he seemed to wake
up only if he 1) was hungry, 2) had nightmares (rarely, but it happened), 
or 3) was too warm - and his "too warm" would have frozen me!

Since he was skinny (20th percentile most of the time) then I didn't worry
about feeding him too much.  When he woke up, I would feed him, he would go
back to sleep, and I got some nice alone time with him.  He didn't sleep
through the night until he was 9 months old, and then it was rarely.  It wasn't
until he was 2 that he started sleeping through the night more often than
not.

As soon as he was out of the crib, I would leave food and drink on the table
for him, and he would quite often drink, if not eat, in the middle of the 
night.

To me, it seemed that the thought of not comforting them if they wakeup
was not "teaching them to comfort themselves", but it was teaching them that
help wouldn't come to them, so they shouldn't bother asking.  I wanted to
teach my son trust, trust that I would come to him when he needed me.
Nightmares or other fears may seem trivial to us adults sometimes, but they
are real to the child.  I admit that I have had some nightmares as an adult,
and I *needed* someone to be there to help me through it so I could try to
go back to sleep again without the fear of the nightmare continuing.

With Evan, I found no harm in feeding him in the middle of the night, either.
He was skinny, and I wanted to take every opportunity to make sure that
he ate enough (worried mom).  :-}  He ate lots (obvious when I was no longer
breastfeeding), so it appeared that he really was hungry, not just hungry
for attention.  I did take the advice of other PARENTING noters and did not
play with him at night (*very* rare exceptions), and would tell him that it was
night time, not play time, that he could play with the toys in his crib alone
if he wanted, and that I would play with him when it was light outside. 

Soooo, my point is that if a parent becomes an ogre with lack of sleep then
it might be necessary to teach the child not to call him/her in the middle
of the night, but otherwise, I think it is an injustice to the child.
Teaching the child to take care of their own needs is fine when they have
the ability to do so (food accessible, some emotional maturity, whatever), but
until then I believe it is our responsibility as parents to help them take care
of those needs. 

       Carol

    
    I need some help and advice.  My daughter, Courtenay is 19 months old
    and isn't sleeping through the night.  This is relatively new since 
    she slept wounderfully when she was a small baby.  But since her molars
    have come into being she is now, what I believe is, in a routine of
    walking up a 1:00 in the morning. 
    
    The only thing that will satisfy her is if 'Mummy' and 'baby' lie on
    the floor on pillows and blankets.  She will then go to sleep and I can
    then put her in her crib.  
    
    At 3:00 am on this past Sunday morning I decided I'd let her cry
    herself to sleep.  Not my first choice since she sometimes gets her 
    knee caught between the bars of her crib and it takes two of us to
    release her. (the crib slats are very close together but they are 
    fancy - not straight - and she can get her leg through one part and
    wedge it into another). BUT, I gave it a shot and thought, 'I'll wait 
    a couple of minutes', it didn't take but 15 second for her to land on
    her back on the floor.  I called the pedi on call and he told me what
    to look for (in case of concousion (SP)).  Needless to say I felt/feel 
    awful.  She is fine but I am exhausted!
    
    I spoke to out regular pedi this morning and he suggested a few things;
    	1. Put her in the crib awake - let her fall asleep by herself.
    	(she currently has one bottle at night and falls asleep in my arms)
    	2. Lower the sides of her crib.
    	3. Lock her in the room or gate her in (to protect her from
    	wandering the house at night).  His suggestion is to put a chain
    	on her door so she can open the door to a point but not get out.
    	4. Put the matteress on the floor (safest in his eyes)	
    
    Not all of these sound to great to me.  Does anyone have any other
    things to make night time more peaceful?  I'm starting to loose my 
    patience, and I'm sure it is from lack of sleep :-( ! HELP!
    
    Rose Marie
    
    

    Jason didn't sleep through the night till he was well over 2.  It was
    really draining, but it was also pretty easy to get him back to sleep.
    For the most part, he'd just lost hold of his blankie or his 'puffer'
    (Puff-a-lump), so we could go in, give him his puffer, put his blankie
    by his face, cover him up, say "Shhhhhhhh - it's okay, Mommy's (or
    daddy) here", rub his back for about 1/2 a min, and he'd go right back
    to sleep.  Sometimes we didn't hear him till he was wide awake crying,
    but for the most part, he'd whimper, and if we got right up, he'd go
    right back to sleep.  Leaving him to let him cry it out never seemed to
    work - he just needed comfort - he needed to know that Mom and Dad were
    around, and that his puffer and blankie were still there too!
    I do believe it had something to do with his sleep cycles though,
    because it was always between 2 and 3:00 in the a.m.  Sometimes if I
    woke up, I'd stay up till he cried, then go back to bed, just so as not
    to be interrupted again.  Now he'll wake up maybe once a week, or once
    every other week.  I've never been one who could just listen to my
    'baby' crying out for me in the middle of the night.  I get worried
    that something might really be wrong - comes from having another who
    gets bloody noses, and from having a nephew who suffocated in the
    covers in bed.  You never know FOR SURE unless you check!!  And there
    are always those nights you go in to find them laying on a toy car or
    something else they smuggled into bed with them - or just an arm that
    fell asleep.
    
    I have also left out water/crackers for Chris when we was going through
    some pretty intense growing spurts, and he'd wake up STARVING.  I guess
    you do what you feel best with ...
    
    GOOD LUCK!!
    Patty

    As well as lowering the sides of the crib, I lowered the crib
    *mattress* (so she was taking a dive from a lower altitude  :-D ) and
    put a thick sheepskin rug on the landing zone (a quilt would work as
    well).
    
    Leslie

    re: .183  Rose Marie,
    
    We've been through a similar situation with Jason (though it didn't
    end with him falling out of his crib - OUCH!).   In my experience,
    the root of your problem is your bedtime routine (bottle and falling
    asleep in your arms).  
    
    In my opinion (which I've formed from our experience in combination with 
    reading Ferber's "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem"), Courtnay is waking 
    during one of her light sleep cycles to find that she is no longer being 
    cuddled by her mom and she won't fall back asleep until she is!   Ferber's 
    adult analogy to this is if you fell asleep with a pillow under your head 
    and woke up in  the middle of the night to find the pillow gone.   You 
    (probably) wouldn't be able to fall back asleep until you found out
    what happened to your pillow!
    
    What we did with Jason was to move the nighttime bottle up by about
    a half hour (at 19 mos, your daughter might not need it at all anymore)
    so that he finished it without falling to sleep.   Then we'd take him
    to his room and read a book, sing a song, give kisses/hugs etc. before 
    laying his down in his crib awake!  We'd reassure him that we would 
    be in the next room and for him to call us if he needed us, we'd go
    back in after 5-10 minutes so he'd know we were still around.  Lo and
    behold, within DAYS, he willingly went to bed and we had no more
    regular nightime waking all without nightime crying fits!  
    
    However, don't let anyone fool you that their kids go to bed willingly 
    every night and never wake up in the middle of the night for months on 
    end - but, when hiccups in the routine do happen they are also much 
    easier to handle once you've established a good bedtime routine. 
    
    I'd really recommend getting a copy of Ferber's book.  It's the best
    ~$10 I've ever spent and I've loaned it to at least 1/2 dozen other
    tired parents. 
    
    Good luck,
    Carol

Our Pedi suggested that we "toss the bottle" during her first year checkup.
Just the thought of it bothered Jim/I, although Juli drank from a cup,
loved her cup and NEVER took a bottle to bed (not even water).  Pedi said
the sooner the better AND chances are she wouldn't miss the bottle (since
it wasn't part of her bedtime ritual and during the day, she usually used a
cup).

Well, around 14 months of age, Juli made a grave mistake ... flung the
bottle in a fit of rage and the milk splattered all over the place.  Jim
gently picked up the bottled and calmly said "well, Juli ... looks like
you don't WANT your bottle ANYMORE ...".  Proceeded to get a plastic bag
and collected up ALL bottles (filled, empty, dirty, clean ... nipples,
caps, etc.) ... and Juli helped!  (probably not realizing what it all meant!).

The only time she seemed to miss the bottle was long daytime car rides
and we gave her ice in a training cup (it would melt gradually, avoiding
any big, major spills).

Ten days later, Jim got fed up with Juli's demands to be rocked to sleep,
talked to sleep or read to sleep ... tossed her in the crib and let her
wail.  First night: 45 long, heart-wrenching torture!, but by the fourth
night, she was a cupcake (sometimes asking for her crib!).

At 17 months of age she started attending a learning center.  They take
their afternoon naps on their very own sleeping bag (on the floor),
surrounded by all the other little-toddlers.  Well, it didn't take Juli
long to figure out she 1) wanted to sleep on the foor; and 2) she wanted
an adjancent sleeper or two or three ...

So, we piled blankets and pillows on her bedroom floor and she would
roll around, talk to her dolls, whatever ... and "eventually" fall asleep.
We'd move her to the crib.  Once a week (or so), she'd waken and protest
being in the crib.  We decided to let her sleep on the floor throughout
the night (and it worked just fine!).

Her 2nd birthday was in early September and Jim/I were concerned about
sleeping on the floor with fall/winter approaching.  We conceded and
switched her crib for a twin bed.  It worked wonderfully for a few nights
and then when the newness wore off, Juli decided to "jump in and out of
bed" and play with her toys.  I found myself falling into a trap of
"police"ing her (to make sure she stayed in her bed) !!! ... this is bad!
... Juli got used to my presence!  Now, we put her in bed and threaten
her if she leaves the bed.  She does!  We pick her up, but her back into
bed ... and we do this several times until she concedes.

Mostly, she'll play with her animals.  She does sleep through the night
... 10-13 hours nightly.

Glad we didn't have to fight the bottle and rocking habits ... had
enough trouble fighting the crib and "presence" issues!!!!

Good luck,
Dottie

    
    (.185) Courtenay's matteress is at the lowest position it can be.
    I should also mention that the pedi measured her at 34 inches at her
    18 month checkup. I think he is off a little I got 33 inches but anyway 
    she is tall.
    
    (.186) I thought I'd like to stop her 8:00 bottle but it was the
    easiest way to get her to fall asleep. I sounds like I may be doing
    more harm than good.  I'm going to try to implement some of these
    suggestions immediately.  The way I see it I'm not sleeping anyway,
    why wait for the weekend?
    
    Thanks for your help.  I'm going to buy that book asap, I'll try the
    library tonight and see if they have it available.
    
    Rose Marie

    
    Well last night was our first night of 'tough baby love'.  We took
    Courtenay off the evening bottle last night and my hubby put her to
    bed.  She cried and screamed for me, I sat down stairs and, I know I 
    shouldn't have but...I listen to the monitor and cried!  It was so
    hard, I felt awful!  I just can't describe it!
    
    She feel asleep about 1/2 hour or so later.  She asked my husband to
    rock her in the rocking chair, he did, after a while she pointed to her
    crib and he put her in 'awake' and she went to sleep.  
    
    At 12:46, as usual, she woke up!  He went to her told her it was time
    to go 'nite nite' and put her down with her snuggly and left the room.
    Needless to say she didn't stay down.  He stood by our doorway, which
    is next to her room, to glance in her room to make sure she didn't
    vault out of her bed.  She tried only once and not again.  The late
    evening ritual took 1 hour until she finally went back to sleep. Hubby
    did lie on the floor for a while and she kept glancing down at him and
    I've asked him not to do that tonight...but even he had a tough time
    leaving her.
    
    She slept until 5:00 am this morning.  I was in showering and hubby
    glanced in to make sure she didn't vault out.  Well she cried for 10 to
    15 minutes and went back to bed.  Could this be the start of something
    good??? Or is it too soon and this was just a coincidence?  I'm hoping
    tonight will be better than last night.  I ended up giving myself a
    sinus headache from crying so much. :-(
    
    Rose Marie
                

    
    Rose Marie,
    
    Sounds like you guys did great!   It will probably take a couple of
    nights before she adjusts to the new routine; but it will be worth
    it in the long run.   This is not to say that she won't have 
    occasional night-time waking that will require your attention 
    (illness, teething, nightmares, hunger, coldfeet, or just no concrete
    reason at all, etc)....but the routine waking should diminish. A
    good night's sleep does everyone well!
    
    Did you happen to find the Ferber's book?
    
    Carol
     

    
    I haven't found Ferber's book.  I looked in the public library and did
    find some others though.  I will have to pick it up this weekend.
    
    Update: I took Courtenay to the Drs yesterday to make sure she was ok. 
    She has been very cranky.  She has bronchitis.  No coughing, no
    fever just waking up at night and always wanting 'mummy'.  She feel out
    of crib again last night, so tonight the matteress goes on the floor!
    I'll remove ever dangerous thing from her room and gate her in. 
    If she does wake up, hopefully, the worst that will happen is that she'll 
    end up sleeping on the floor.
    
    Last night was tough though, finally my husband told her he was tired of 
    the game, wasn't going to play anymore, to lie down and go to bed, AND 
    SHE DID!  We were stunned! 

    Total exhausted,
    
    Rose Marie

    Since the birth of our daughter, 8 weeks ago, we've noticed that Chase
    has been having a harder time to remain asleep throughout the night. 
    Now he's getting to the point of awakening about 2 times a night for
    "tape".  Tape is his tape recorder which plays his favorite cassettes. 
    We put him to bed every night after his rituals (bath, story, dad & mom
    tucking him in).  He cuddles up with his blanket and we insert a
    cassette into his player that's on his bureau.  He's completely asleep
    within 5 minutes usually.
    
    We're torn between trying a new technique of getting him out of the
    habit of walking into our bedroom and saying "tape", and just jumping up
    and throwing a tape in.  The new infant is in our bedroom (in a few
    weeks she and Chase will move into a larger room that they will share),
    so we don't like to get into any arguments with him because it will
    wake her up and she doesn't sleep through the night yet.
    
    In the past, Chase had the monitor in his bedroom, so if he needed us
    we would hear him.  Now the monitor is in our bedroom (while the baby
    is in there), and I guess he realizes this, so walks in.  (Just an FYI: 
    if he calls to us from his room, we CAN hear him.)
    
    I don't know if the Ferber method applies here or not.  He used to
    sleep beautifully, but it's since the baby came that things have been
    different.  He's also left his one-and-only babysitter a few weeks ago
    and started at Daycare, but he absolutely LOVES it!  (I don't know if
    this even applies, but I wanted to be complete on what was/is happening
    in his life right now!).
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Dale

How old is Chase?  Is he old enough to operate the cassette recorder by 
himself?  Is the casette player a kids' model (that is easy to operate, with 
big buttons).  If he's old enough, I'd suggest teaching him how to start the 
tape himself.  Then if he comes in to your room and says "Tape," you can just 
say "Fine, Chase, go ahead and play the tape."  If you don't have a kids' 
model cassette player, IMO, they're a great investment.

That is essentially what we did with nighttime requests for drinks of water.  
We stopped getting out of bed to get the water.  After a few nights of "Fine, 
go get yourself a cup of water," our kids quit asking.  They either got it 
themselves, or decided they weren't thirsty.

Clay

    During our last visit to the pedi, I asked about crying out at night.
    Our pedi says there's two kind of night scares.
    
    Night terrors 	When the child cries out while asleep.  Children do
    			not remember these night terrors after waking.
    
    Nightmares		When they wake up, crying in terror.  This is
    			different then just waking up and crying.  With
    			this crying, you know they're terrified.  They will
    			remember these, and too many nights of this kind
    			of scare may require the addition of a monster
    			purge to the bedtime ritual.
    
    Ryanne had her first nightmare the night before we went to the pedi. 
    Thankfully she hasn't had any since.
    
    When her older brother went through the "monster in my room" stage, I
    let our dog sleep in his room, not his bed.  My explanation was that
    since Gypsy always barked to let us know if somebody was coming to our
    house, she would bark if any monsters came into his room.

    IMO, (re: -2) it's NOT the issue of whether or not he can operate the
    tape player himself.  Case in point, AJ will walk PAST the bathroom up
    the stairs to our room, wake us up to ask for a drink.  When we tell
    him it's OK and he can get the drink himself he launches into a panicy
    whine, and demands (sometimes he'll grab my hand and try to pull me out
    of bed) that one of us come with him.  Which is usually what I end up
    doing.
    
    Sometimes we've observed these awakening may coincide with an outside
    noise; the train whistle at 2 am, the dog up the street who's out all
    night, the man next door who leaves for work at 4am, and even sometimes
    about a half hour after my husband (the one who stays up late watching
    TV) shuts off the TV for the night.
    
    I wonder if he's discovered the pattern that when the baby stirs and
    cries she gets attention, so he's going to try the same routine to get
    his own amount of attention?  I wonder if he's feeling slighted?
    
    Lyn
    

re: .195

>IMO, (re: -2) it's NOT the issue of whether or not he can operate the    
>tape player himself.  Case in point, AJ will walk PAST the bathroom up    
>the stairs to our room, wake us up to ask for a drink.  When we tell him
>it's OK and he can get the drink himself he launches into a panicy    
>whine, and demands (sometimes he'll grab my hand and try to pull me out   
>of bed) that one of us come with him.  Which is usually what I end up    
>doing.

     Lyn, I don't think that it's the issue either.  What I suggest is to
REMOVE IT AS AN EXCUSE.  Then it's a matter of saying "OK, if you want to
listen to your cassette, start it yourself, go ahead."  You can't say that
if he doesn't know how to operate the recorder.

     We went through the exact same thing as you did, with the drink.  We
put up a dispenser of paper cups, made sure she knew which was hot and cold,
and next time told her to get it herself.  Yes, we got the whiny "you need
to do it", and yes, we had to put up with tantrums that woke up everyone, and
yes, oftentimes we went with her.  But after a while she started doing it
herself.  (I say she, because it was more of a problem with our daughter than
with our son).  And actually, sometimes it's not manipulative.  They need
someone to help them to have the self-confidence that they CAN do it
themselves, and to give them encouragement to TRY to do it themselves.

     I also think that you are right about the observations about the wanting
attention and feeling slighted.  Not an easy issue to deal with, because they
tend to "forget" any attention that they get during the day; but you
certainly don't want to re-establish infant sleeping patterns in a toddler. 
One thing we did try to do was to recognize it the next morning, like "Lara,
I noticed that you <got a drink> <went to the bathroom> <whatever> all by
yourself last night."  

Clay

    Holly -- almost 4 mos. -- has started waking up quite promptly
    at 3 a.m.  I've been giving her her pacifier and she generally
    goes right back to sleep.  She isn't crying, she's just awake
    and sounding mildly fussy.  She is getting over a cold.  My sitter
    said to not give her any medicine at bedtime, because sometimes
    it makes kids hyper.  Also, I was using Infants' Pediacare and 
    I think it might be making her too dry; she might be waking up because
    she's thirsty.  She's always slept like a lamb till this past Friday.
    Her ears were fine at her 4-month checkup on Thursday.  Does anyone
    have any ideas on why she would be waking up, and should I let her
    fuss herself back to sleep?  I don't think she's hungry -- she would
    NEVER settle for a lousy pacifier if she were! :-)
    
    Dying to get a good night's sleep again,
    Kate

    Hi,
    
         I bought "How to solve your childs sleep problems" everyone has
    talked about in here, after my daughter started doing the same thing.
    He suggests that they associate sleep with a bottle, pacifier, being
    rocked to sleep, etc. and when they wake up in the middle of the night
    they have to have it the way they fell asleep (pacifier). I did as he
    suggested and she started sleeping through the night again. We were
    very lucky, by the second night she fussed for about 5 minutes and that
    was it. She's sleeping throught the night every night now. I would
    recommend buying the book. It looks like it will be helpful with other
    types of sleep problems too.
    
    Good Luck,
    Sheree
    

    	I used to keep a monitor on in our bedroom even though our
    	daugher was only a few steps away in the next room.  Doing
    	that made all her movements, noises, etc. doubly audible and
    	caused me to lose a lot of sleep.  I shut off the monitor
    	and I sleep better...
    
    	In comparison, if you hear her and she's not screaming 
    	like a banshee, I'd let her be and hopefully she'll fall
    	back to sleep.
    
    	If not, go in and give her back her pacifier.  My daughter
    	was a "sucky" baby and until she was about 6 months old
    	really needed that bit of security.  Now she might start
    	off with it but she'll lose it in the middle of the night
    	and it doesn't phase her.
    
    	Another idea, and I don't know if you do this already is
    	to put her to bed while she's awake.  My daughter goes to
    	bed while she's still awake and falls asleep on her own.
    	If she should wake up in the middle of the night, she'll
    	be able to fall asleep herself.
    
    	I mean - don't you wake up in the middle of the night 
    	sometimes for no apparent reason?
    
    	/Kim

Our son David slept with us from 0 to 22 months. Since then, by his choice, 
he has slept in a single bed in his own room. No pain, no trauma, no books 
referenced, just what came naturally.

/Dave (UK).

    Ok, here's my current sleep problem.  We have no problems with Marc
    (2.2) going to sleep.  We put him in his crib, leave the room, and
    he falls asleep almost immediately with no objections.  I consider us
    very fortunate to have no problems getting him to sleep. 
    
    The problem is that lately he has started waking up in the middle of
    the night, and rather than crying, he shouts at the top of his lungs
    MOM, COME INTO MARC'S ROOM RIGHT NOW, PLEASE MOM!  He is wide awake,
    and will keep yelling until we come in.  He usually has some plausible
    excuse such as his blanket fell off, or he wants water, or he's too
    hot.  Sometimes all we have to do is tuck him in again and tell him
    it's the middle of the night, go back to sleep.  After we do what he
    asks, he'll just go right back to sleep.  
    
    It doesn't sound like much of a problem, but we're getting woken up
    more often than not at 3 or 4 a.m., and we feel like zombies the
    next morning.  
    
    Any suggestions other than simply ignoring the yelling?

    Our daughter does this as well, but she wears a hip brace to correct
    hip dysplasia, all night. At about 4-5am she wants us to take it off
    and she will call us to take it off. This happens every night. She does
    wimper in her sleep or talk in her sleep. We would react (more so a
    reflex action) and would run to her room. Now we have learned to tune
    her out unless it is a distinct and loud Mommy or Daddy call and she
    calls out repeatedly. We usually take off her brace and she is off to
    sleep quite quickly. 
    
    These days she wants to come into our room at about 5:45. When she
    calls out, and by the time we go to her room , she is already up and
    ready to go to "mommy daddy's room".
    
    We are used to it since she has been in a cast and then brace since 6
    months of age and she is now 2.5 years old. I know this is no solution
    but we are there each night.
    
    Shaila

    Deb, (.201)  Something occured to me early (it was 2:30 a.m.) this
    morning.  *IT* was my wonder child, he was standing beside me
    announcing he was scared.  I then realized what has awakened him this
    time and many times before was *external* noises.  Last night it was
    the extremely high winds rattling just about anything loose outside.
    When he was younger, I relized it was the train whistle between 2-2:30
    nightly, or the neighbors warming up their cars starting sometimes at
    4a.m.  We actually stopped checking on him before we went to bed at
    night, we discovered that we were actually waking him up, not
    completely but enought that a half hour after we went to bed, he was
    waking us up.
    
    Perhaps what is waking up your charming child is something outside of
    either the house or the bedroom?
    
    Lyn

    I have done a search and have read all of the entries which pertain to
    my question, but none have answered it. If anyone can redirect me i
    would be happy to check again. Otherwise, here is the question;
    
    My sister-in-law's 3 week old has slept virtually all day and stayed 
    up all night since coming home from the hospital.  I would assume to 
    reverse the schedule you would gradually try to keep the baby awake 
    during the day,  but this is very difficult to do with a new born. 
    
    Has anyone had this problem?  What were your experiences/solutions?
    
    I could not help because fortunatly,  my 6 month old never had the 
    problem. 
    
    Thanks,
    Janet
    
                                   

    
    Boy, does this note bring back memories.  My daughter, Alexa,
    was 4 1/2 weeks early and did this for about the first month or
    so.  We (at the advice of our pedi) did everything including 
    clap our hands to try to keep her awake or wake her up.  It was
    SO difficult to do and we felt sooooo cruel.  But eventually
    it worked out.
    
    Now (at 17 mos old) Alexa sleeps 12 hours at night and 1 -2 hours
    during the day.
    
    Sheryl

    
    Janet,
    
    	An interesting idea--my pedi said it is speculated that a lot of
    "preemies" have their days and nights mixed up because while in the
    womb they are rocked to sleep while the moms are up and walking about.
    At night the babies move around more while the moms are still.
    
    	I've decide to work 3rd shift the next time I'm pregnant!!!
    
    Sheryl

    It is also the right degree of commotion...they are used to dark, muted
    activities, and the day may be too much for them.  As awful as it seems
    for the first weeks, it passes, I remember being so proud that Nathan
    slept thru the night at 7 weeks, but in retrospect, it was not regular. 
    The (unwelcome, I remember!!!!!) moral of the story--these things take
    time!
    
    Adrienne
    

Tell me about it!  This seems to happen more than you'd believe!  Two
of ours did this, especially the middle one!

Try to ensure that the baby is not wrapped too tightly during the day
time so that he/she isn't too warm.  Hospitals often seem to overwrap
some babies, and the tendency is to carry on at home.  The idea is to
ensure that baby isn't too cozy comfortable during the day.  Baby
doesn't really require much more in the way of clothing / covers than
you; just avoid draughts etc.

Remember too that in hospital, nursery lights tend to be on all the time,
and there is activity all the time, so there is no sense of night and day 
there.  Then suddenly they get home and you try to impose a sense of
night and day.  Also, when the light goes out they suddenly feel alone
and want attention!


Stuart

    What worked for me is to rouse the little one hourly - just enough to
    make them squirm or even open their eyes in the crib (during the day,
    of course).  Then at night, when they squirm and wiggle don't run to
    them immediately - give them a few minutes to see if they doze back to
    sleep themselves - usually 3-5 minutes is enough.
    
    Also, a busy day will ensure a quiet night.  We found that on the
    weekends when we were running around most of the day the kids slept
    better at night.  Figures - we had a "husband has night duty on
    weekends" rule in our house!!  (then I wasn't a working mom...)
    
    Good luck!
    -sandy
    
    

    Back in version 1, I think, a bunch of people swore by this seemingly
    ridiculous procedure: holding the baby very carefully (natch; might
    take 2 people) rotate the baby in a somersault motion!  The old wives'
    tale says this is supposed to reset their clock.... Hey, I don't make
    'em up, I just report 'em!  It might work... doesn't seem like it could
    hurt, though I wouldn't try it when the baby had a full tummy.
    
    Leslie

    
    re. 210
    
    My brother in law said the same thing to my husband, said to spin him 
    around 3 times, and it would make him sleep through the night.  Well,
    it didn't work for us.
    
    Michael did the same thing (night/day reversed) the first couple of
    weeks. We did as others in here said, tried to keep him awake during
    the day more. I would wake him every 3 hours. I know its hard when they
    are so small, but it will get easier.  It seems to pass.
    Also, I found giving him his bath at night seemed to help him sleep
    better too.  To this day (3 mos old), he still gets wiped out after a
    bath and is always ready for a good long nap afterwards.
    
    He's been sleeping through the night now since about 8 weeks.
    
    Its funnny someone else mentioned "Daddy duty" on the weekends. Steve
    and I did this (still do).  While I was home, I would always be the one
    to get up in the middle of the night because Steve had to work the next
    day...and then on weekends it was my turn to sleep.  Seemed like
    Michael would always sleep "through the night" on the nights of Hubbys
    turn!  Those "bag" type sleepers are still Daddys favorite. Less
    conplicated at changing time.
    
    Chris
    

    When Sara was little I had the use of a cradle.  I made sure that
    daytime naps were in the cradle and nighttime sleep was in her crib.  I
    read somewhere that it helps the baby begin to differentiate between
    night and day.
    
    Also, I made sure that before bedtime I changed her into "jammies",
    even if it was another bag sleeper.
    
    Good luck!
    

    In the words of our wise pediatrician.... 
    
    	Room service in this hotel is very slow at night!

    
    	Do you think that 4 months is too early for having sleep problems?
    
    	I routinely get up every hour after 3 or 4 in the morning to feed
    this kid, and it is *really* starting to wear on me. I'm still nursing
    but sometimes I put a bottle in his mouth and he will finish it while
    he is asleep in my arms (takes forever).
    
    	Although the problem may be that he wants attention (but he will
    fall right back to sleep after he has eaten) I really think that the
    problem may be food related. He only eats about 6 ounces during the day
    and then starts powering food during the evening. (he weighs about
    18/19 pounds). Last night we gave him cereal for the first time and I
    had also thought that cereal would guarantee sleep for all during the
    night. Alas, not in this case.
    
    	Is there anything we can do short of inserting a tube into his
    stomach to pump the food directly, to get more sleep?
    
                         Wendy -z
    				 -z
          			   -z
    	

    re: 214
    
    My sister's 4 month old is about the same size as your son. She said
    that unless she gives him cereal at 10 pm, he will wake up for a 
    feeding at 3 pm. It sounds like you have the same problem. I'm curious
    to see what happens when he starts to sleep less during the day and
    goes down for the night earlier. I expect he'll be on more solids
    during the day then and will be able to 'tank up' before nightime.
    What time does Spenser go to sleep for the night? 

    I went through a similar problem with my son, Lee.  I returned to work
    when he was three months old.  He was not happy with a bottle despite
    weeks of trying.  I thought that once I returned to work, he would take
    it because he had to.  Wrong....  He adjusted his feeding schedule and
    began waking every 2-3 hours during the night.  During the day he
    would take just enough from the bottle to survive, about 6 oz total.
    Needless to say he wasn't very happy during the day.  I was pumping
    milk at work, so it was the same milk.  Talk about feeling guilty
    about going back to work and then add all of this on top of it.  He was
    gaining plenty of wait however and the doctor assured me he wuoldn't 
    starve.  I was able to switch to part time while this was going on.
    
       Things began to look up at about 4 1/2 months once Lee hit the
    everything must go into my mouth stage.  He then was much more
    receptive of the bottle and began to eat more during the day.  He was
    much happier for our sitter also.   At 7 months, he still didn't want
    to give up the night feedings (1 or 2).  I suspect it was more of a 
    habit than anything.  I bought the Dr. Ferber book and we are all
    living happily ever after.... I too reccomend this book highly.
    
       I am now in the process of weaning Lee.  He seems much more
    interested in the bottle than he is in me.  He gets very impatient.
    He is almost eight months old now.  
    
       But Wendy, I certainly can relate. I thought it would never end.
    Now the problem is that *I'm* no longer used to sleeping through the
    night and I wake up 2 or 3 times a night for no reason and can't fall
    back to sleep easily.
    
    
    				Mary

    Re: .-1... I agree.  I think it's entirely normal for a 4-month-old to
    need a middle-of-the-night feeding.  I wouldn't start to consider it a
    "sleeping problem" until at least 6 months or so.

    I can relate to this too. My daughter is now 6 months old and
    still wants one or two feedings at night. I just re-read Ferber and
    he thinks that by this age, it is a habit more than a true need
    to eat. Our pediatrician commented that they should be eating less
    frequently (but a greater quantity) during the day by six months, 
    and that there is no physiologic need for feedings after bedtime.
    
    So, I guess we are going to Ferberize her...in fact, we've already
    started, and she usually goes back to sleep within minutes of
    waking (after some backrubs from Dad), confirming my feeling that 
    she just needs help breaking the habit.
    
    Lucy 

    
    Wendy...  Does Spencer take a pacifier???   Michael has been sleeping
    through (thank god!) for about a month or so now, and occasionally
    wakes at 1-or-2-or-3am. I usually go in and "bink him" (as we call the 
    pacifier his "binky"). It usually works. Usually when he wakes, its
    about 3-4 hours since his last bottle, and would normally be his next
    feeding. I'm trying to get him onto the "thumb", so he can pacify
    himself, but no luck yet (3 mos).  
    
    I've been wondering about cereal at night too. Although I don't have
    the problem of Michael not eating during the day, I'd like to get 
    him to stop waking, and also waking SO early...(usually 5-6am). His
    first bottle runs right into my husband and I getting ready for work.
    He drinks about five 6 oz bottles a day...and a jar of fruit.  The
    nights I have given him cereal at night, he still seems to wake 
    (like last night..z..zz..zz).  ????  I thought the cereal would help
    him sleep better too?????     Last night he had cereal, ANOTHER jar of 
    fruit, and a bottle, and was still starving at 5:30am! (and I had to 
    get up 3 times between 1-4am to bink him)??  Maybe a growth spurt????
    His 4 month appt is in 2 weeks or so...
    
    Chris
    

    re -1

    	Wow. That seems like a lot of food. With Spencer nursing it's
    difficult to know how much he eats, but knowing that he eats only 5/6
    ounces during the day, it really seems that he is not getting enough to
    eat especially compared (I know that I'm not supposed to compare) to
    Michael (and yet this kid grows and grows... he's in 2T sleepers now!).

    	And re: the pacifiers, on occasion, Spencer will take a pacifier
    but for the most part if you put a pacifier in his mouth, he launches
    it into baby space.

    	Tonight I'll really work on the cereal (he liked it) and see if
    that makes a difference. Oh and his usually bedtime is anywhere from
    8-9:30, he's a night owl just like his mom (used to be). I think that
    I'll also try giving him some formula after a nursing session to see if
    that will hold him. I'm just concerned about the issue of force feeding
    him, I don't want to push extra food into him just so I can sleep (even
    though the thought is terribly tempting).

    	I'll let you know how things work out.

    			Wendy

    
    	Ah, heaven.
    
    	After feeding Spencer about two 1/2 tablespoons of cereal in the
    evening and letting him nurse and *then* giving him about 4 ounces of
    formula, he went to sleep at about 8:30 and slept until 2:00 and then
    went back to sleep until about 5:30.
    
    	I literally feel like a different person. Somehow (I still don't
    know how he did it) Marc was able to wake up and get the baby for me
    both times Spencer woke up, I never even had to leave the bed. This is
    the same man that usually wakes up in the morning and asks me how many
    times I got up during the night. (even with Spencer sleeping in our
    bedroom!)
    
    	It's just amazing what a little (and it still is little but hey,
    I'll take what I can get) sleep can do.
    
    		Wendy who is singing a different song today :-)

    
    Glad to hear it Wendy...Isn't it amazing what a little extra sleep
    can do?!!
    
    I think I'm back in your shoes now. Although I haven't had to "feed"
    him in the middle of the night, Michael has been waking 2-3 times a
    night all week, and I have to go in and put his pacifier in. This
    morning it was at 1am, then 3 times between 4-5am, and finally at 5:15
    he said "no more" and wanted to eat. And as you said (amazingly enough)
    hubby was the one to get up and feed him and I got to sleep an extra
    15 mins.. 
    
    I'm beginning to wonder if he's on a growth spurt... he's been
    "finishing" his 6 oz bottles each time for a couple of weeks now,
    (before he wouldn't always finish them, especially at daycare), but
    lately he's been "chowing" bigtime. Today we started the 8oz bottles
    and I'm going to see what happens.  I'd like to maybe get him to 
    4 8 oz bottles a day, instead of 5-6 6 oz ones. My pedi said anything
    over 32oz a day, that I should start cereal, etc..  Although he didn't
    want any part of the cereal last night...and the night before, the
    cereal STILL didn't make him sleep without waking.. ????? I'm
    confused!
    
    Just when you think you're starting to figure them out...BAM!
    
    Chris
    

    I need help.  My 8 month old son has never slept through the night.
    He is up on an average of 3-4 times a night.  The other notes in this
    file don't really apply to my situation.
    
    I've tried all the "methods".  They don't work for us.  
    
    When I tried just letting him cry...the next day or two I'd find out he
    had an ear infection.  So how do I know if it's pain or not....? And
    then the crying wakes my 3 year old...another story....
    
    Putting him in the bed with us doesn't work...No one gets any sleep.
    
    Diluting the formula doesn't work...he doesn't always want a bottle
    (some nights he wants one...some he doesn't)
    
    Pacifiers mean I have to get up 10 times and put it back in his mouth.  
    I've even tried glow in the dark ones...I've tried 2, now he HAS to 
    HOLD one and suck on the other!
    
    The "wind up" clock (tick tock) doesn't work.  Neither does:
    Lights on or off
    Solids before bed or not
    Same routine or not
    cold or hot
    different "PJ" fabric
    etc. etc. etc.
    
    I can not function on such little sleep.  Last night he slept from
    10:00 to 11:00 and 3:00 to 6:00.  Sometimes he wants to be held,
    sometimes a bottle, sometimes teething medi helps, sometimes nothing
    does.  
    Doesn't ANYONE have any advise.  Please don't say Ferber or
    Sears...I've tried......Now I'm looking for some good old fashioned
    wives-tales.....
    
    
    THANKS!!
    
    
    

    
    Here's a good one for you. Some friends of my mom's had that problem.
    They got a fish tank. I guess the sound of the bubbles and the water
    kept the baby asleep (womb noises??). They had the baby in their room
    and when the baby out grew it they found that they could not sleep with
    out it, now they put fish in the tank and keep it in their room so they
    can sleep.
    
    I have also seen at a store a vibrating device that you attach to the
    crib that gently rocks it to keep the baby asleep.
    
    good luck!

    Just a thought... how much sleep does he get during the day?  Maybe
    he is getting enough rest then and isn't tired at night??

    This sounds more familiar than I care to remember.  What finally
    worked for us was (Chelsey was about 9 months when we took action):
    
    a bottle before bed, cuddle time in a dark room and in a rocking
     chair
    took the pacifier away (never to be used again under any circumstances)
    checking the first couple of nights to ensure that Chelsey was not
     hurt, in pain, cold 
    letting her cry and scream
    
    After about 4 nights of real screaming, she started to calm down, and
    after about a week, Chelsey stated sleeping soundly.  Now if she 
    wakes up in the night and starts crying we are pretty sure that
    she is cold, or has a gas bubble, or that something is wrong.  It was
    a miserable week, but given that everyone gets to sleep now, it was
    worth it.  (I felt a mean old mom just letting my baby scream!)  
    
    We also have a 3 year old that would wake up due to Chelsey's crying.
    
    Good luck,
    Penny

Glad to see I'm not the only one :^)

My baby (8 mos in 2 days) also has never slept through the night, except
once last week while on a prescription cough syrup that "causes
drowsiness".  Well, he's better now, and sleeps from 10-2, 3-6, and if we
didn't have to go to work he'd also sleep from 6-8.

Last night, convinced he wasn't waking because of ears or hunger, decided
firmly that I would not nurse him back to sleep (which takes all of about 2
minutes).  Instead I rocked him, gave him a bottle of water,
and when he still wouldn't sleep I got his dad up for the old
standby:  Walking up and down the stairs carrying him in a cradled position
while singing the ABC song.  Don't laugh, it works.  Except that at 3 am I
just can't handle it physically (at 8 mos Graham weighs at least 6 tons!).

Tonight I'm also going to try getting him to sleep earlier - around 8,
hoping that'll help him get up for good at 6 which, unfortunately, is when
I need to get started during the week.  

I personally couldn't stomach the Ferber method, and rocking the crib has
never worked for us.  Nor has patting on the back, leaving a light on (we
keep a 15-watt bulb on which is just enough light to see, but still pretty
dim).  I also don't like taking him in my bed as then no one sleeps and I
end up with a stiff neck from trying to nurse lying down.

Other causes to consider:

-Too hot
-Too cold
-Too dry (tried a cool-mist humidifier yet?  They also make a nice soft
 hum that might help, although I can't swear to it).
-Thirsty (try giving a little water in a cup or bottle  - not as rich as
formula, and maybe the coolness will help, although I wouldn't go too cold).
-If baby's been in your room and you just put him in his own room, he may
 miss the sound of you and spouse sleeping (this is a problem for my
 sister-in-law now - we moved Graham out at 2.5 mos.).

Other suggestions:

-Have your spouse/S.O./other adult in the house alternate with you getting
up and taking care of baby so at least you can get a little more rest.

-Put baby to bed earlier, and YOU go to bed earlier in preparation for the
ups and downs

-Make sure baby gets *LOTS* of holding, cuddling, attention in the evening
after a long day of being away from mom and dad (if he's waking to be held)
Note that attention need not be "stimulating" - see next suggestion

-Start a routine to follow *EVERY* night that includes perhaps a warm bath
and reading a story (Graham actually does enjoy looking at the books - "Pat
the Bunny" and Richard Scarry chubby word books, I'm going to get
"Goodnight Moon" ASAP), to help baby wind down after a long day of
play/stimulation at daycare/sitter. Eventually, so the theory goes, baby
will come to recognize that these events mean sleepy-time is just around
the corner, and helping him to relax and ease into will help him get a good
night's sleep.

I spoke with the nurse at my facility today (her son is about a year old)
who said her 76-year-old mother said "They'll sleep through the night when
they're ready to".  Not encouraging, but perhaps true.  The thing I try to
remember is that ALL BABIES ARE DIFFERENT.  Even if 90% of all babies sleep
through the night by 2 months, that doesn't mean there's something wrong
with yours if he doesn't at 8 months.  Although that doesn't get you any
more sleep, for me it took the pressure off of trying to make Graham
conform to the "norm" I kept hearing about.

Good luck, and sweet dreams!

~Caryn

    Just a small idea but why try just two pacifiers.  Scatter a whole
    gross of them around the crib if it helps.  He's certainly liable to
    find one of them.
    
    ccb

    re: .227
    
    Caryn,
    
    What part of the Ferber method can't you stomach?   I'm assuming that
    it's the crying-it-out part.   I (the basenoter for this LONG string!)
    was also uncomfortable with that part but we were able to successfully
    help Jason learn to sleep through the night and fall back to sleep
    during the light parts of his sleep cycle without going through major
    screaming.   We chose to focus on the "sleep associations" chapter.
    Though you don't explicitly say so, it sounds like your nursing or
    rocking/walking your son to sleep at bedtime and in the middle of
    the night.  Ferber likens this to if you, as an adult, had fallen to
    sleep with a pillow under your head only to wake in the middle of the
    night to find it gone....you probably couldn't fall back to sleep 
    until you found that pillow again!   This was our problem with Jason.  
    We had to create a bedtime routine and learn to put him to bed awake; 
    both at naptimes and bedtime.    The crying was minimal and 1 1/2 years 
    later we have a very good sleeper!  
    
    However, if you are comfortable with Graham's nighttime wakings, then
    by all means, don't worry about it!   He'll sleep through the night
    eventually, I'm sure.   I personally was just too tired and had to do
    something about it!
    
    Good luck,
    Carol 

    I urge parents who can't stand the idea of using the Ferber method to
    reconsider. It really isn't so bad.
    
    I let my first child get into a really bad habit (actually, it was *my*
    bad habit) where he would ony fall asleep when rocked. If you do this
    every day, and your child likes routine (most do), then you create a
    situation where this is almost the only way they will fall asleep. 
    
    "Ferberizing" him was kind of traumatic because we waited so long to do
    it, but it worked. We found that you have to read the book and try to
    understand why Ferber uses the method he does. You can tailor it to
    suit yourself. If you can't handle 5 minutes of crying (it can seem
    like forever) start with one minute, then two, and so on.
    
    Our second child was heading down the same path (frequent wakings 
    at 6 months of age) so we Ferberized her then. It was much, much
    easier. We started putting her down awake (drowsy) at naptimes -
    this helped her learn to put herself to sleep. We stopped picking
    her up at night once we were sure she didn't need night feedings
    (Ferber believes that this is only a habit by 6 months, or younger).
    We had only one rough night and she has adapted well. She doesn't
    sleep silently through every night, but a few moments of back-rubbing
    now will help her get back to sleep. 
    
    It's really that the parents have to re-educate themselves, I think --
    I know that's the case for me. You don't have to treat Ferber's 
    book as the Bible as long as you respect principles he bases his
    method on. 
    
    Good luck, and tell us what happens. (This note has been a big help
    to me; people really *use* this note!)
    
    Lucy

    re: Lucy
    
    I remember 20/20 did a show on Ferber method.  At the end of show,
    it said the method should only be used on children that are 2 years
    and older.  I don't remember the reason it stated.  I personally
    have never used the Ferber method.  However, I do feel that 6 months
    is too young for this method.  Maybe someone that is familar with
    the method can clearify this.
    
    Wendy
    
    

    I have not had a good nights sleep for 2 1/2 years :-o... but they say
    it gets better.
    

    My son was still waking up 3-4 times a nigth at 7 months of age.  I
    read the Ferber book and then we worked with him very slowly at our own
    pace to get him to sleep through the night.  I used the book more for
    an understanding of what my son needed than as a checklist of things
    to do.  I waited until after the holidays so that he was on a normal 
    schedule with relativley little chaos.  I moved at a much slower pace
    than the Ferber book recommended.  I was nursing him back to sleep
    everytime he woke up.  The first thing I did was to cut down on the
    feedings and introduce a pacifier.  I know this is a no no but it
    worked for us.  We did this slowly until he increased the amount of
    food he was taking in during the day and was no longer eating at night.
    Now all we had to do was teach him to fall asleep on his own without
    the added complication of him being hungry.  I still used the pacifier
    but not all the time.  We let him get very tired and then put him to
    bed awake.  I only let him fuss for a minute or two at the most.  I
    never let him get into a full howl.  I just never had the resolve to
    listen to him cry.  It wasn't worth it to me.  After he learned to
    sleep on his own, we phased out the pacifier.  They are still around if
    he wants one, but he grabs them himself ( he's nine months old).  This
    all took 3-4 weeks.  We also charted him for a while, at home and at 
    daycare. (there is a sleep chart in the Ferber book)  I don't think
    this really did anything for us but it made us feel like we had a plan.
         So I used the Ferber book but modified the method.  He sleeps
    through the night but I never really had to let him cry.  If you are
    uncomfortable with the crying, you can still use the Ferber concepts.
    It took a little longer, but the end result is the same.  Every baby
    is different.  Do what you are comfortable with.
    
    
    				Good luck,
    				Mary

Wendy, 
 
    I have to agree with you that 6 months is to young.  My personal opinion is 
an infants need for assurance is greater than their need to learn the proper
sleep habits.  Of course its best if you can accomplish both goals at the same
time.  But at that age I would prefer to provide a bit more direct assistance
in helping a baby find a way to sleep.

    When my daughter was 4 1/2 months old I was having a problem in that she 
woke repeatedly at night searching for her pacifier.  At that time I attempted
the Ferber method for about three days.  It probably would have worked if I had
stuck it out longer, but I just didn't have the heart.  Fortunately by the time
she turned 5 months she matured to the point where she could find the pacifier 
herself and our sleep problems were solved without making her cry it out alone.

    Now she is almost two.  She has never needed us to help her sleep (since
she learned to find her binky on her own at 5 months).  But she does still need 
her binky.  I suppose one of these days we will have to take it away from her, 
and then I will have to give Ferber a shot again.  But I will feel much more 
comfortable letting 2-yr-old cry it out alone for 10 minutes at a time than I 
did with a 5 month-old.

    JMHO

- Carol

    To those who wonder if six months is too young to Ferberize -
    I urge you to at least read the book and see what he has to say
    before you decide.
    
    It depends somewhat on the child. I agree that young babies need
    hands-on comforting, and I have always done this. Our daughter, who had 
    slept well when she was three/four months old, had fallen into the 
    habit of waking 3 times a night by six months. So I knew she was capable 
    of sleeping better, and didn't need nursing/rocking 3 times each night.
    
    Ferber's book covers children from six months up to six years, roughly.
    He has a chapter about night feeding and how babies associate that with 
    falling asleep. What you try to do is gently dissociate feeding from 
    falling asleep, so they can learn to go to sleep without breast or bottle.
    
    For us, back-rubbing for about one minute has replaced picking up and 
    nursing - much better for mother and baby. Our goal was to have her
    not expect to be picked up when she awoke. We still go into her room
    to rub her back once a night most nights, and don't mind that at all. 
    
    Lucy                        

Lucy, I'm glad this has worked well for you.  This does not mean, however,
that it is the right thing for everybody.

I believe different things than those people who have let their babies cry
in the middle of the night or who have stopped feeding their babies at 
night.

Consequently, I fed my baby at night.  I comforted him in my arms.
I feel that this gave my baby a better sense of security, so it was worth
it *for me* to get up in the middle of the night.

Evan is now 4.  He sleeps well through the night.  He hasn't come to me in
the middle of the night but once in the last several months.  He is confident,
very sociable, and secure.  I can't know, of course, if he would be any less
those things had I not comforted him in the middle of the night.  However, I 
think I did the right thing for us.

     Carol

    My son Kevin (22 months) was always good about bedtime and sleeping thru
    the night unless he was sick.But the last time he had a cold 
    he got really insistent about being rocked back to sleep.He would
    then wake up 15 minutes later and we'd start all over again.
    
    This went on for about 2 weeks and I was at the end of my rope.I knew
    he wasn't sick anymore but I just couldn't seem to break this cycle.
    I read about the Ferber method in this notes file and decided to try
    it.It went much better than I had feared.It was only the first two
    nights that he even got upset.By the third night he had the idea that
    he wasn't getting out of the crib and mommy wasn't going to sit on his
    floor and sing to him all night.
    
    It was hard to listen to him cry but I'm glad we went thru with it.This
    doesn't mean I won't give him a hug if he seems to have a bad dream or
    sing him a song when I put him to bed.But it sure is nice to get a
    whole nights sleep again!!
    
                             Barbara
    

    It really up to the parents.  I personally believe that most
    children will outgrow their sleep problems by 2 year old.  If
    not, then it is time to use Ferber method.  My son is now
    3.5.  Before he turned two, his sleep pattern was pretty unstable.
    He could be a good sleeper for months, then suddenly started waking
    up 3 times a night.  After he turned two, he sleeps like an adult,
    seldom wakes up.  My daughter is 1.5 and same as my son at this age, 
    she has good days and bad days.  If she is over-tired
    during the day, I am pretty sure that she won't sleep well that night.
    And sometimes it takes days for her to get back to herself again.
    
    Wendy