Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Wow!!!
    
    Well, personally, I am going to try to remove myself from the "Gun"
    part of the issue.  I don't need to turn this into soapbox.  But the
    core issue here is that the camp is teaching your daughter something
    that you don't believe in. Now you have to decide, how important is
    this to you.  I see it two ways; either you are vehomently opposed to
    the use of firearms, or your not.  I remember being at camp and
    learnign to use a bow and arrow.  Dangerous (but not as dangerous as a
    .22, I admit).  I might have "shown off" after camp, but we didn't have
    a bow and arrow.  If your daughter is not going to have access to
    firearms (either at your house or her fathers house), the danger is
    probably no higher than if she didn't know how to fire it.  
    
    If she and a buddy find a gun at someones house (you know all the
    horror stories), knowledge of it's use or not probably won't prevent
    any accident.  
    
    But if this issue is a biggie for you, then call the director and speak
    to them about it.  And if you are still uncomfortable, then ask them to
    find an alternative activity for your daughter.
    
    My .2 cents!
    
    
    Sue

My $.02.

I went to a Boy's Club summer camp in NJ (run by a PA Boy's Club branch).
At that camp one of the optional activities was marksmanship with .22 cal
rifles.  Part of what was taught was reasonable gun saftey (ie: always treat
a gun as though it is loaded...).  That level of training (even if you never
get to shoot) is useful for all people.  Someone who is ignorant of proper
handling is less likely to do something stupid if they encounter a firearm.
I would also be much more worried about kids with bows than .22 rifles.  The
range may be longer with the rifle;  but at short range an arrow can do much
more damage.

In any case, I would hope that shooting (bows or guns) is an optional activity
whose participation both the children and the parents have a say in (both
should have the option to veto).  NO ONE should be forced to allow their
children to participate in an activity to which they have a strong moral
opposition.

Dick

    
    Thanks Sue,
    
    	You're right, it is up to how much of an issue I want to make
    of this.
    
    	The thing is too, I guess, lack of knowledge is what can hurt,
    I guess knowing too much doesn't.  As long as she has a respect
    for the weapon and realizes that it can kill someone, then she's
    learned a valuable lesson.  Even though I can't stand weapons and
    I'd never want one in my home.
    
    	I just wish I had known that the camp had this being offered
    before she went up there.
    
    
    						jean

To me, if your daughter had learned about firearm safety, THEN,
learned how to use the .22 rifle, then I think that it would be
ok. Let's face it, if use of guns were taught in perspective
then, it should be one less hazard of the any gun in her
posession, being discharged accidentally.

Later on in life, she'll learn about sex, but hopefully, you
would have taught the proper place and responsibility for sex
within the place of marriage. (Bit olde fashion, I am.)

calvin

    Artiliary and archery have always been "traditions" in the camp
    environment. That's all fine and well, but you are obviously bothered
    by 2 things; the fact that a "Christian" camp is advocating these and
    that you personally have a problem with the usage of firearms (or maybe
    it is just the age of your daughter being taught to use them). 
    
    I would question the director and even the actual instructors about the
    way the artilliary sessions are presented - are they marksmen skills or
    defense skills and is the seriousness and hazards of handling a gun
    also emphasized. That's where my initial concern would lie - making
    sure the correct message is given to my daughter, both from the camp
    and from myself. And that the utmost safety is used while practicing.
    
    You can't tell if you hit the target if you don't use real bullets or 
    real arrows. 
    
    Andrea     
          

Was there no fore-warning of this activity?  If there was a brochure of some
sorts, did they not list this activity in the brochure or literature?  If not
then you certainly have every right to complain.  If they did, then you should
have decided ahead of time whether you wanted to send her anyways and let her
participate, or try to remove her from that activity (which *could* be
embarrasing for her if all of her buddies get to do it).

I went to camp every year as a child.  We did horse-back riding, archery,
riflery, arts & crafts, back packing, etc.  (Needless to say it was not a
church camp!)   I loved archery and riflery but the thought never crossed my
mind to use those weapons outside of these types of activities.  And since
everyone at camp did it, I never considered it anything special to "show off."

Now days I don't like guns because of the potential danger, but I probably
wouldn't be opposed to Kati learning how to shoot one at a camp (better there
than from some friend who is showing off!)......

Kristen

An after thought. Ask your daughter if they teach gun safety
FIRST. Then ask the church camp director. If they did not teach
gun safety, then you do have a right to challenge the right of
the camp to let minors use firearms.

Come to think of it, why is a CHURCH camp teaching kids about
firearms?

calvin

    
    Hi,
    
    	In the brochure I received, there was no mention of firearms,
    or archery.  If I had seen it in there, I would have questioned
    it.  
    
    	Yes, WHY IS A CHURCH CAMP TEACHING KIDS ABOUT FIREARMS!!!???
    
    	I'm also trying desperatly to separate my feelings about this
    being her father's Church (not mine) and my feelings about the
    artillary.
    
    	Also, it does seem that they had some prior safety training.
    As she mentioned that this was the first day they were going to
    LOAD the rifle themselves...  I don't know, it just bothers me.
    
    	And, re: #? who mentioned discussing sex with your children
    before they engage in it.  I agree whole hartedly with that.  However,
    I don't send my children out with a loaded .22 everyday.  They do
    go out with loaded hormones though...
    
    
    						jean  
      

    I think that I'd also have lots of concerns about this.  One that
    hasn't been mentioned yet is the safety of the children right now, as
    they learn.  Even if they have been taught safety procedures, I sure 
    wouldn't want to be around 10 year olds with loaded guns -- accidents 
    just happen too easily.
    
                                                  Tracy

A .22 calibre rifle is not "artillery."  Hyperbole is fun, but not productive
in an emotional issue like firearms.  Why is a church camp teaching target
shooting? I dunno -- I'll bet they have a lot of non-religious activities like
swimming and weaving and things.  Target shooting is just a camp-type activity.

A reasonable thing to ask is if the instructor is NRA certified.  It's the 
same thing as asking if their swimming instructors are Red Cross certified,
and you ask for the same reason: to make sure the person in charge met some
limited standards for knowing what they are doing.  If they're NRA certified,
then they know about gun saftey, they teach safe handling before the kids
touch the rifles and they maintain a safe range.

You try to avoid letting a personal prejudice against firearms color your
handling of the situation.  Your daughter has to make her own choices.  If
she has a chance to learn about these things in a relaxed setting with a 
knowlegable instructor it can only be a plus.

As to what will keep her from killing everyone in sight now that she knows
how to shoot a gun... what keeps her from killing people with a table knife?
She does.  Her knowlege of what's right and what's wrong.  The hardware
doesn't make the decisions.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    First of all, a .22 caliber rifle IS artillery.  It can kill.  Period.
    Seems to me there's one of those Commandments that went something
    like "Thou shalt not kill."  Now, if this Bible camp wants to teach
    them "Thou shalt not kill" then shows them how, there's a bit of
    a mixed message in there, or is it me?
    
    Yes, there are other non-religious type activities.  Swimming, fishing,
    boating, ball playing, tennis, etc.  
    
    The question "What keeps her from killing someone with a table knife?".
    True, her values and knowing what's right and wrong (hopefully,
    that's number 1).  However, there are accidents - as others have
    mentioned.  Also, in anger a gun is a lot quicker.  How many people
    have you read about that have been shot lately as compared to those
    stabbed?  And in general, knives are a lot more accessable to everyone
    than guns.
    
    I'm against violence.  I don't want to see my daughter get hurt.
    
    
    						jean
    					

First of all it's "Thou shalt not murder" if you read any reliable translation.

Second, shooting at targets (or at animals if you go in for that) are both
practices that have nothing to do with that commandment.  As a matter of fact,
shooting at targets is an Olympic sport.

I for one don't go in for hunting (though I have no objection to those who do).
I would also not want my children learning about firearms at camp.  The level
of training of a typical camp counseler is the pits.  I would rather teach my
children myself (or have them taught by a state run program as is available in
PA).

As to the age level, you are aware that in many (maybe even most) states 12
years is the age at which a Jr. hunting license can be obtained.  This typically
limits to hunting with a parent.  It also usually requires a firearms safety
course.

As to whether safety was taught at that camp, just because they were not
initially allowed to load their own guns does not mean that they were taught
safety.  It may just mean that the camp does that for the initial convenience
of the counselers.  You should ASK EXPLICITLY WHAT WAS TAUGHT ABOUT SAFETY.
The WORST thing that could happen is for your daughter to become relaxed about
firearms without having proper safety consciousness.

Dick

Jean,

I am against violance also. As you know, most children reflect
their parent's actions and beliefs so if you are a peaceful and
serene person, the problem of weaponery will never be an issue,
whether they master the weaponery of choice.

It's really sad that the church camp identified that it's ok for
teaching kids about weaponery.

calvin

    
    
    .13:  Thanks.
    
    				jean

    This is something I've never thought about before...  I went to a
    summer camp when I was 12 and Riflery and Archery were offered.
    There were kids younger than I (down to 8, I think) who also took
    Riflery.  I do remember, however, that we were also taught about
    firearm safety.  My parents never mentioned if they had a problem
    with it and I know my mother was opposed to guns.  But as someone
    mentioned before, this was treated as a sport and safety was
    emphasized just as it was with swimming, canoeing, etc. and there
    were never any problems.  To my knowledge, none of the children
    I went to camp with ended up in jail...
    
    I do understand the seriousness of this issue, though.  Maybe the fact
    that the kids I was with turned out O.K. was just luck.  Maybe not.
    If I were in your position, I would *definately* contact the camp
    director and explain my feelings to him/her and ask if your daughter
    might be placed in an alternate activity while riflery is going on.
    I'd also discuss the issue with her, as well, and tell her how you
    feel.
    
    Good luck,
    Kathryn
    

I learned riflery and archery when I was at camp when I was 10.  We learned
the safety rules and practiced markmanship at targets.   Though I don't
like guns and will not have any in or near my house, I do think it's
reasonable to teach our children how to properly handle them.  Properly
supervised, it's as safe as swimming.

I do think that parents who are concerned should inquire as to how well trained
the instructors are and what safety practices are in place.

However, I do not share the astonishment of others that a "religious" camp
would be teaching the use of weapons.

				Steve

    Well, I think religion has even less to do with camping than riflery.
    
    And I agree that firearms safety *should* be taught - but at a later
    age.  Ten is way too young, IMO, especially when it's a crowd and not
    individual instruction.  13 to 15 is more like it (but that's
    subjective--I was 13 when took rifle instruction, given by the local
    police at their indoor range).  I don't care how many states give out
    licenses to 12-year-olds; it's still a boneheaded policy.
    
    I'd be furious with the camp for not including riflery and archery in
    the brochure, and (if this is the case) for not requiring written
    permission from the parent(s) before enrolling a child in either. 
    (Maybe the basenoter's former husband signed such a document.)  I would
    tell the camp to take my daughter out of that class immediately, and I
    wouldn't let her back in until I had determined (by personal
    observation, ideally) that it met with my criteria of safe
    teacher:student ratio, safe procedures, and firearm safety instruction,
    assuming I thought my daughter was mature enough for such a class in
    the first place.  Peer pressure for her to stay in the class might be
    unfortunate, but a firearm accident would be a h*ll of a lot more
    unfortunate. 

    
    Just wondering if the issue is more that she is at *that* camp.
    
    and the use of rifes a smoke screan
    
    ed
    

    
    re: .18 -
    
    No, the issue is not that she was at "*that* camp".  I don't mind
    that her father and his wife sent her to a bible camp.  (Is that
    what you meant?)
    
    Let me back up...
    
    I spoke with Juli's father on Friday and asked if he knew the camp
    he had sent her to offered riflery.  He said "no" but then his wife
    chipped in and said it was right in the brochure (which I never
    saw).  I asked if he had to sign a permission slip and he said "no".
    In any case, I expressed my concern to him about her using a rifle.
    
    Well, on Sunday Juli came home from camp.  (It was only a week long.)
    She said she had a wonderful time and learned a lot.  I guess there
    was mostly "camp type things", fishing, boating, swimming, ball
    playing...  and about 1/2 hour of bible study in the afternoon and
    "Chapel" after dinner for about 1/2 hour.
    
    It seems that the period of time Juli was doing riflery, archery
    and crafts were also offered.  Her first choice was crafts but it
    was full, so her second choice as riflery.  She said she LOVED it.
    (And she did very well from the looks of the bulls-eyes she brought
    home.)  Anyway, I gave her the lecture about NEVER picking up a
    rifle in someone else's home or anything like that.  I asked her
    where you point a rifle and she said "down range - always, even
    when you're loading it."  It seems that she was taught safety and
    realizes this is a weapon.
    
    I'm just still surprised that a Bible camp would offer riflery.
    Girl Scouts/Boy Scouts/whatever...maybe, WITH parents approval,
    but Bible camp???  Oh well.
    
    Thanks for everyone's comments.  I was glad to hear I wasn't the
    only person out there concerned about handing a .22 to my 10 year
    old.
    
    
    					jean

    When I went to a Boys' Camp in the 1950s' they certainly did, and still
    do teach rifelry and archery.  No one ever got shot that I know of.
    The controls on the guns while being used and stored were very strict.
    There were not any close calls that I know of either.  The discipline
    on the ranges was excellent.  I have never gained a wish to shoot
    people as a result.  If anything, the controlled use of weapons helped
    defuse my interest in guns.

    My parents and I choose whether I would take these activities.  I
    choose to take part.  I assume that if you object to your daughter
    taking part in this that you make your wishes known and get off the
    camps' case.  If there are VALID safety concerns then you may want
    to raise the points.  If the NRA supervises/supports this program it
    is probably well run. (No, I am not a member of the NRA). 

    I respect your right to not have your child take part in this. As
    an ex-camp counselor I saw my fill of irate parents all wound up over
    personal causes which they expected other people to make federal cases
    of.

I've just finished reading this note and all it's replies and I must say
I was shocked.  Initially by the base note - a 10 year old learning how
to shoot a gun at summer camp????  What is this world coming to?  And then 
by many of the reponses - "We had riflery at camp when I was a kid".  Wow!  
I must admit, I don't have too much experience regarding summer camp.  I 
only went once, and we definitely did not have target practice.  I guess in
some ways I'm still naive.

In a day and age where the town's skating rings no longer offer "free skating"
because the insurance premium is too high (in case someone gets hurt and sues)
it boggles the mind that a place would offer gun shooting to 10 year olds.  
What happens if there is an accident?  Are they insured?  What insurance 
premiums must they pay?  I know, I know, I'm getting off track.

In regards to <<< Note 113.10 by PSTJTT::TABER >>>
>					Why is a church camp teaching target
>shooting? I dunno -- I'll bet they have a lot of non-religious activities like
>swimming and weaving and things.  Target shooting is just a camp-type activity.

My question is why does any camp offer target shooting?  Camp is for fun and
exercise and learning.  Arts and crafts teach kids to be creative.  Swimming 
is great exercise.  They are both fun.  I don't see how target practice is 
fun or exercise.  It may BE fun for a child, but they shouldn't be viewing it
as such.

As far as the "learning" aspects of camp.  OK, I'll concede that learning gun
safety is important and I wouldn't have any problem with this being taught at
camp.  (Just like water safety and Bible Study.)  I DO have a problem with
teaching kids how to aim guns at targets and shoot.  Especially if they are
under 13 years of age.  I just don't see the point of it.  And why wasn't it
mentioned as an activity in the brochure?  It seems to me this would be an
important consideration to most parents.

� �ori

    re .21                                                
    
    As I mentioned, it was in the brochure.  However, I didn't get to
    see it.  Her father sent her to this camp.  (We are divorced.) 
    
    I just think that in this world where there are so many people shooting
    eachother (like in LA traffic!) for no apparant reason, it doesn't
    make sense to me to give lessons at a summer camp.
    
    
    						jean
    

    Fori, guns are here.  Aren't we better having our kids taught 
    proper safety measures regarding guns then having them potentially
    exposed to guns WITHOUT knowing the first thing about them?  What if
    your child sees or is shown a gun in a friends home by the friends
    CHILD and they play with it? Granted, that certainly SHOULD NOT happen,
    but this sort of thing happens daily with kids getting killed out of
    complete ignorance. My point is that appropriate training in a safe
    environment (such as at camp) might not only provide your child with
    a fun, yes fun, appropriate use of a gun, (target shooting on a range)
    while teaching safety and reducing the fascination factor guns have on
    kids.  When at camp as a boy in the 1950's we started with riflery at
    EIGHT years old.  There was never a problem that I saw with kids this
    young if they are PROPERLY supervised and trained.  I took riflery for
    many years at camp and I have not emerged loving war or having shot
    or wanting to shoot anybody. If anything the fascination in guns was
    reduced in me.  When an friend (when I was a teenager) pulled out his
    gun and showed it to me in his room I KNEW how to avoid getting shot
    with it.
    
    I do not dispute your RIGHT to keep your child out of shooting
    activities.  I do question the wisdom of hiding ones' head in the sand
    and pretending that guns don't exist will make problems with them go
    away.  The problems are with the people using them anyway.  As I said
    I shot in riflery for years and never saw anyone hurt at camp on the
    range.  Now DRIVING to camp..... thats another matter.  I don't know
    HOW many people I know who have been killed by motor vehicles.....
    
    Am I a 'gun nut'?  I don't think so.  I havn't shot in years... my
    interest in guns was satisfied at camp.
    
    For any other parents who send their kids to camp.  Riflery/archery are
    stock activities at MANY camps... be forwarned if you have a problem
    with it.   

>In regards to <<< Note 113.10 by PSTJTT::TABER >>>
>>					Why is a church camp teaching target
>>shooting? I dunno -- I'll bet they have a lot of non-religious activities like
>>swimming and weaving and things.  Target shooting is just a camp-type activity.
>
>My question is why does any camp offer target shooting?  Camp is for fun and
>exercise and learning.  Arts and crafts teach kids to be creative.  Swimming 
>is great exercise.  They are both fun.  I don't see how target practice is 
>fun or exercise.  It may BE fun for a child, but they shouldn't be viewing it
>as such.

The fact that you don't see how target practice is fun or exercise doesn't mean
it's not.  It just means that it's not a sport you care for.  However, it is
a sport -- as someone pointed out it's an Olympic sport and it is featured in
many other sporting events.  I remember that when I shot targets I found it a
lot of fun, it required a lot of study and it also required a lot of exercise
if you were going to be any good at it.  It's a pretty traditional thing for
summer camps that have the wherewithall to pay for the equipment, and the
insurance is not very expensive (at least for camps running NRA certified
programs) because there are few accidents.  Certainly there are more injuries
from other sports than the shooting sports. I know of more fatalities from 
swimming than from target shooting.

The subtext in most rants against shooting sports is a fear of guns used for
illegal activities.  It's pretty unrealistic in that it's based on a fear of
the hardware and not on the person who is using it.  Guns themselves do nothing.
And it's pretty rare to hear of a sportsman involved in criminal activity.
The things to fear are criminals and loonies -- and they are dangerous with
everything, guns, knives, cars, bare hands, you name it.

So I don't think there's anything wrong with a camp providing rifle instruction
in a properly supervised setting. Kids usually enjoy it and get a lot of self
confidence from being able to hit the target.  On the way, they learn safe
handling of firearms and respect for them.  Informed respect is far safer than
ignorant fear. 
				>>>==>PStJTT

RE:                      <<< Note 113.23 by DISCVR::GILMAN >>>
                         -< Stock Activities at Camp >-

>    Lori, guns are here.  Aren't we better having our kids taught 
>    proper safety measures regarding guns then having them potentially
>    exposed to guns WITHOUT knowing the first thing about them?  ...

Reread my note.  I think you missed half of it.

� �ori

    Gee, I think that the camp is showing extreme responsibility
    in teaching shooting (and apparently gun safety).  In fact,
    I'd venture to turn things around a bit.  Instead of asking
    why a Christian camp is teaching young people about guns, I'd
    ask why other Christian camps are being irresponsible by
    NOT teaching about guns.
    
    Seems to me that in today's violent world responsibility
    requires us to make sure our kids know as much as possible
    about the proper approach to the tools of violence.  And ditto
    about drugs and sex, and so on.
    
    I don't recall anything in my Catholic upbringing that forbids
    knowing about such things.

    There is a geographical element being ignored here.  Guns for kids is
    much more common in some parts of the country than others, and
    doubtless there are parents there who _assume_ camps teach shooting.
    No camp I've known did so, though.
    
    Historically, weapons and religion are a wonderful match.  After all,
    war is "His fateful lightning and His terrible swift sword," and most
    slaughter has been carried out in His name.  St. Francis was not
    necessarily the typical Christian.  
    
    If kids are to be given guns, they certainly need training.  But the
    notion that accident prevention through gun training is an important
    service is, unfortunately, nonsense.  A recent study found that the
    third most common cause of death in youth under age 20 is suicide
    (intentional, not accidental), the majority with guns.  The study,
    conducted by the Center for Disease Control, specifically recommended
    "reduced access to firearms" to reduce fatalities.  Not more training;
    less access to guns.  (They also endorsed air bag use; half of all youth
    deaths come in auto accidents.)
    
    Guns don't kill people by themselves (much).  People using guns do. 
    People like us, much of the time, not some separate, identifiable group
    of "criminals and loonies."  Guns are pretty safe as long as they
    aren't given to people.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    p.s.  Artillery, by definition, means large caliber weapons that are
    mounted.  22. calliber rifles don't qualify.

    A person bent on suicide is going to find a way to do it.  Guns do tend
    to be a handy tool. If a child isn't given the opportunity to learn
    gun safety then the possibility that they or someone else is going to
    be accidentally killed increases greatly when that child does run up
    against someone showing them a gun, especially if it is another kid
    which has found her fathers or mothers run stash.  Whether the guns
    SHOULD be available to the child is not a matter for debate, of course
    they shouldn't be.  The fact is they often are available. An uninfomed
    child may well be in trouble as Bruce suggests is the case with drugs.
    Should all children be trained in gun use, no, but training those who
    want to be an an appropriate camp program should not be a federal case
    either.   Jeff

This moderator would like to gently urge the participants in this discussion
to refrain from using it as an opportunity to branch out into their opinions
about guns and gun control as general societal issues.  

The desirability of firearms education for children seems sufficiently
relevant to the original topic that I have changed the title of the base 
note from "Weapons at Summer Camp???" to "Weapons at Summer Camp??? -- and
Gun Training for Children"

    I have a four year old who is very interested in guns and shooting
    "badmen" like the cowboys do. I have not bought him a gun yet as I am
    trying to teach him that guns are not toys(even toy guns). I was hoping
    to eventually run across someone who would teach him gun saftey and
    possibly take him to a powdershoot or some other form of target
    practice to let him know how responcible people use guns.
    
    It's entirly possible I am making a big deal out of believing that
    toy guns should be treated like real guns(never pointed at anyone)
    as a method of training children the hows and whys of gun safety.
    
    I have no interest in guns personally but I do respect them and 
    dont know how to teach the respect and still let him enjoy using them.
    
    I havent heard of rifelry being taught at the local girl Scout Camp but
    I do know they teach archery and I learned archery in gym in high
    school. 
    
    janet
    

< Note 113.27 by RDVAX::COLLIER "Bruce Collier" >
    
    
    p.s.  Artillery, by definition, means large caliber weapons that are
    mounted.  22. calliber rifles don't qualify.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^

But 22 mm does, Bruce, qualify as artillary. 8)  I KNEW you meant
.22 mm.

calvin

    	Kids do not appreciate what guns can do until they see a real
    	one in action, or until they see REAL results from a gunshot.

    	My first exposure to guns was at a boy scout summer camp.  It
    	was a 22 rifle, and I was amazed to feel the kickback that those
    	little bullets could create.  (It wasn't all that much, but I
    	didn't expect anything.)

    	Then the instructor had us all watch what types of damage different
    	types of shot can do.  He shot a 22 into a watermelon.  Then we saw 
    	larger caliber bullets literally explode the watermelons where the
    	22 just passed through.  We also saw him demolish a watermelon
    	with a shotgun.  And seeing the kickback he got on those larger
    	rifles also showed us something.

    	I have seen my kid develop a respect for bullets and guns as well.
    	Having grown up on a diet of A-Team and GI Joe, he never saw
    	bullets as potentially damaging.  They were things to dodge, like
    	snowballs.  But then he saw a documentary on PBS about the JFK
    	shooting.  They did still frames of that home video showing him
    	getting shot.  He was mortified to see Kennedy's head literally
    	explode.  It was his first real exposure to the reality of bullets.
    	He had nightmares for a week.  He was 6 at the time.

    	Now he is almost 9.  He is going to a cub scout day camp, and one
    	of the activities is BB shooting.  He has finally had the
    	opportunity to touch a real gun, and he finds it one of the most
    	exciting activities there.  I am also happy for him to be able
    	to see how a gun works, and what it can do.  And he is better
    	able to understand what the act of pointing a gun at something
    	(or someone) really means.

    	Joe Oppelt
    	

    re .32   Exactly what I have been trying to say Joe.  TV violence while
    increasingly realistic in recent years still lack the element of
    reality which a supervised session on a range can teach a kid. I did
    play Cowboys with toy guns with my friends when I was a boy in the
    1950s'  I also took riflery at summer camp and I NEVER failed to 
    appreciate the difference between playing with toy guns vs. firing
    real ones.  I played with toys guns (and pointed toy guns at friends too)
    as a boy.  None of us were ever hurt physically or emotionally as far
    as I can tell.  An OBVIOUS essential element regarding guns is that
    people appreciate the difference between toy guns and real ones.  I
    know, "how does the kid know whether he/she has a real or toy gun?"
    Maybe if he/she took a supervised course he or she would know and, how
    to act appropriately. Yup, Bruce the problem is the people end of the
    gun usually. I think that you will find people killed by guns for 
    three main reasons.  Murder, Suicide, Accidents.  At least training can
    help reduce the accidents.  Murder and suicide problem lie with the 
    people committing them.  Eliminate guns and the problem goes away. Not
    a bad solution... how do we DO it? I havn't figured out a way
    personally. When my son is an appropriate age I would ok his
    participation in a approved camp gun course.  At least he will
    understand the risks and methods of reducing them.  

    I have a question: how do the anti-riflery parents feel about
    martial arts instruction (karate, judo, wrestling, etc.) at
    summer camps?  Such activities can be both exercise and fun.
    
    I did riflery at a summer camp when I was very young (6? 7?),
    in Cambridge, Mass.  I remember enjoying it, but prefering other
    more physical activities, like dodgeball.
    
    		-John Bishop

                      <<< Note 113.34 by MINAR::BISHOP >>>
>>>>I have a question: how do the anti-riflery parents feel about
    martial arts instruction (karate, judo, wrestling, etc.) at
    summer camps?

John,

Martial Arts does not include wrestling. I hardly believe that
some church camps will have Martial Arts since the art
incorporates a foreign philosphy to fundamental Christianity.

cal

    .35 > I hardly believe that some church camps will have Martial Arts since
    .35 > the art incorporates a foreign philosphy to fundamental Christianity.
    
    Well, the question wasn't about CHURCH camps.  In any case, I find it
    strange to say that karate and judo need have any kind of a "foreign
    philosophy."  I was a judo whiz as a kid (long before anyone had
    invented the silly term "Martial Arts"), and there was no
    "philosophical" element to it.
    
    However, wrestling, karate and judo are all indoor sports (requiring
    mats, etc.) that seem best left to appropriate indoor seasons (at least
    for casual learners).  Camps should probably concentrate on summer
    things, like capture the flag, tennyball, canoeing, and catching frogs.
    
    			- Bruce

    I watched "America's Most Wanted" last night regarding the gang drive
    by shootings in LA and other American Cities with horror.  I certainly
    can see why people get so turned off to all guns in all contexts.  Our
    Society would be better off without them, but they are here.  Do I want
    my son learning "skills" at camp which are the tools of the trade which
    gangs use? Of course not, but I do want him to understand guns and
    respect them so he has a full appreciation of appropriate uses and non
    appropriate uses.  A gun program at a summer camp is one way for him to
    acquire the information about guns which WILL teach him the values I
    want him to learn.  Jeff
    

    Bruce,
    
    The boy next door goes to Karate camp in the summer.  Also, they
    *do* get into the philosophy of the sport which I believe is a
    real good thing.  While I realize that the original question 
    regarding offering Martial Arts at camp didn't suggest a Bible
    camp, it is a good question as Karate, Judo, etc. are all based
    on the philosophy behind it.  I think they're too broad to have
    at the traditional type of summer camp being discussed here and
    are best left to camps that specialize in the Martial Arts.  The
    one our neighbor goes to is primarily outdoors.
    
    - Kathryn
      

    
    I clearly remember going to Catholic church sponsored camps as a
    child and having riflery as an activity. I read this note yesterday
    and went home and looked at the pile of brochures from
    Christian/Catholic/boy scout/girl scout/generic camps that we
    considered for our children this year. Not one of them DIDN'T offer
    riflery. The Boy Scout camp my son has attended since he was in
    first grade has always offered riflery. The controlled environment
    with a well trained staff that teaches safety as part of the activity
    tends to mean I don't really worry about it. But then I always find
    someone who has attended and ask lots of questions before I decide
    where my kids go.

    
    Well, one thing I just found out yesterday which made me feel somewhat
    better about her learning riflery was that she said that anyone
    who shot anything other than the paper targets (live animals) had
    to skin them and eat them!  I guess that was enough to turn the
    kids off of trying to shoot at the animals.
    
    I'm still concerned about just handling a weapon, though.
    
    As far as taking karate, judo, etc., I think that yes, she is being
    taught something which is healthy and fun, however, is also being
    taught to use her body as a weapon.  However, it's my understanding
    that these are used in SELF-DEFENSE.
    
    And I feel that the "art" of shooting an arrow is something of an
    accomplishment.
    
    It's just that when you read (fortunatly, I haven't seen, yet) what
    happens when someone opens up an automatic weapon it makes me sick.
    I haven't read about people getting killed by someone going crazy
    with judo on them or spraying arrows around.  However, I have heard
    all too often, of nuts out there with automatic weapons spraying
    bullets around school yards.
    
    
    						jean

>    As far as taking karate, judo, etc., I think that yes, she is being
>    taught something which is healthy and fun, however, is also being
>    taught to use her body as a weapon.  However, it's my understanding
>    that these are used in SELF-DEFENSE.

The martial arts taught by sport establishments are not really good for
fighting or defense unless augmented by learning that shows how to 
adapt those skills to that purpose. Those skills are used in self-defense 
(if they are) as a choice of the individual.  Those same skills can also be 
used offensively if the individual chooses.  There are some sick individuals 
who misuse them that way, and yes, it can result in fatalities.  

Guns are the same.  The sport that is being taught at the camp is a SPORT.  It 
is meant to be used as a sport.  What they learn is not especially useful for 
self defense or offense, but with a little adittional training, it can be 
used that way.  The fact that people CAN misuse what they learn should not
be used as an argument for not teaching at all.

The question in not how can information be misused, but rather is it common
and/or proper to teach shooting sports in camp?  I believe the answer is yes,
providing it's properly supervised/sanctioned etc.  I don't think dragging
in automatic weapons or sociopathic individuals has any bearing on the 
subject.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    .40  Do you think most children would attack others with automatic 
    weapons if they were given training on the operation of the weapons?  If
    you do then it may not be appropriate to give them any weapons
    training.  But I dare say that if someone is bent on killing people
    he/she will find a way to do it whether they have been trained on
    weapons use or not.  As a boy at summer camp taking rifelry, I NEVER
    saw another boy joke around with a rifle pretending to shoot others.
    We KNEW that guns were serious business and we treated them
    accordingly even though when I first started we were eight years old.
    When on the range there was no kidding around.  We payed attention.
    
    I am 47 years old now and occasionally enjoy paper target shooting
    with a handgun as a sport on a range.  I have never pointed a gun
    at anyone or shot or killed an animal either, so my weapons training
    as a boy didn't in my case lead to a savage killer shooting kids on
    playgrounds.  I submit that you will find that people who do shoot
    others in killing orgies are people who are self-taught and are
    mentally imbalanced.  I think you would not be able to link summer
    camp shooting programs with subsequent killing sprees when the kids
    become adults.  Jeff
    
    

    I have two daughters and two sons. I started them training with real
    firearms at age three since target shooting has been a hobby for years
    A day at the range is a real enjoyable relaxing family activity. It 
    also teaches them responsibility and gun safety. You never know when
    your kid is libel to encounter a gun at a friends ir find one laying
    around. I handeled my first gun when I was about ten. Someboby dumped
    several rifles and handguns with ammo and black powder in the woods
    near where i lived. Some were black powder some centerfire, all
    antiques. All functional. It was only shere luck i didn't get hurt.
    My two daughters are now age 31 and 24. both own their own handguns
    and are good shots. My grandaughter started shooting at age 4. My two
    sons are age 11 and 14 and are also good shoots with both handguns and 
    rifles of all types. My Two sons will often invite a friend along when
    we go to the range. I always get the parents permission and no parent
    has refused to let his son go and they started inviting their friends
    when they were in kidnegarden.