Conference moira::parenting_v3

My daycare has had 3 increases in 18 months, amounting to less than 4% total
increase (I started at $95 per week, and it went up several times ending at
$99 per week - but last week I moved to the toddler room at $79 per week).

The percentage of the increase sounds awfully high to me, unless they are going
to add a great deal of additional services.  However, after travelling back 
east several times the dollar amount sounds CHEAP compared to their rates!
(lower ratios)

Kristen

    Hi Andrea:
    
    Just for the record, I pay 60 pounds (around $108) per
    40 hour week for my
    childminder, who delivers personal care to my daughter. The
    three babies in her care are 11-15 months old. 
    I'm sure her rates are competitive, as most childminders here are charging
    around that amount or slightly higher. She does not provide lunch,
    but she does provide tender loving care.
    
    I think the cost increase at Tinitots is an outrage. If my
    childminder raised her rates by 40-50% (and before a full
    year was up, as well) I'd be searching for a new childminder
    and/or thinking of quitting my job. Anyone who has to raise
    rates that much must have miscalculated overhead costs at the 
    start. (Or, must have calculated very cleverly about the timing of
    raising rates after hooking parents into a childcare arrangement...)
    
    All the best, Barbara 

    Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart.  I think is issue is not
    so much what is reasonable as what will the market bear.  My caregiver
    recently raised her rates to 3.50/hour to be competitive with the
    market.  That means for a full time 50 hour a week rate would be
    $175.00/week.  Ouch!!!  She has agreed to keep my rate at the $140/week
    rate as I was about to remove my daughter last year and place her
    at the Y program which was most more reasonable.  
    
    As long as parents pay the $175.00 fee, the rates will stay high,
    similar to the real estate market.  However, unlike real estate,
    you can't decide just not to buy right now.  The daycare dilemma
    is a tough one.  
    
    Bobbie

The daycare my son is in has never raised the rates for as long (2 yrs)
as we've used them.  What they do to get around this is they raise the
rates for new, incoming children, while maintaining the rates for the
children that are already there.

for example:
	  1988      1989

infant   $140/wk    $150     If your infant started in 1988, you paid $140/wk.
toddler   120/wk    $130     In 1989 you'd still pay $140/wk, but parents of
			     infants entering would pay $150.  This is still
			     only about 7 or 8% increase.  Then when your
			     infant moved into the toddler program (in 1989)
			     you'd pay $130/wk, so the price actually went down.

Maybe they know that Digital is giving comparable pay raises :-}.

Sounds awfully high to me.  My daughter's daycare (Children's World
in Colorado Springs) raised her tuition by $1. per week a while back.
It's all of $71. per week for the 2.5 - 3.5 year old group.

Keep us posted!

    If you divide the price by the number of hours of care, you may
    rethink opinions of "too high".  We pay far less for child care
    than it is worth.
    
    I think what happens sometimes is that the provider doesn't know what
    the costs will be, and prices their service too low.  Then they find
    they can't support the business and must raise prices.  It is, of
    course, dependent on the local economy.  Here in Nashua, I pay about
    $110/week for preschool/kindergarten.  Infant prices are higher.
    
    			Steve

    >If you divide the price by the number of hours of care, you may
    >rethink opinions of "too high".  We pay far less for child care
    >than it is worth.
    
    It depends on how you look at it.  For a 1:1 ratio that is entirely too
    low.  But say the ratio is 1:6.  Take the rate that 6 people pay per
    week and divide it by the number of hours the caregiver watches the
    child, and it is probably a decent number.
    
    I think the profit margins grow tremendously when the children get
    older and the ratios can increase significantly.  Most daycares don't
    make money on infants, even though they charge an arm and a leg - but
    they are building up their customer base for later by allowing infants.
    
    Kristen

    People seem to often times mention that daycare providers don't earn
    very much at all.  Then someone else has to remind them that these
    people are watching 4, 6, 8, etc children - which certainly does
    add up.  If they charged rates comparable to what we (or even
    a McDonalds worker) earn, then they would have no business because
    no one could afford to pay them that much.
    
    Donna

    I think the percentage increase from this year to next is irrelevant. 
    As Steve suggested, they apparently found the rates insufficient to
    cover expenses.  If they had been in business 10 years and then did
    this, it would be another matter.
    
    The new rates mentioned are still much lower than those at Eric's
    preschool, which also pays quite low rent (in a former school) and has
    much equipment donated.  But I'm not sure comparisons between UK rates
    and USA rates are very meaningful.  What are other local rates like,
    and what are the wage levels of the staff?
    
    I think you should withhold judgement until you attend the meeting.  I
    would be very surprised if Digital hasn't approved the new rates as
    justifiable (as they do, for example, with Tobin food prices).  I bet
    they will give a full explanation at the meeting.
    
    As to the broader question of what daycare is "worth," there is a
    genuine tension between keeping rates low enough so that typical
    working families can afford them, and keeping wages high enough so that
    capable, motivated teachers can live on them without vows of poverty. 
    I think we (society) have so far erred on the "cheap" side.  If we pay
    BurgerKing wages, we'll get high turnover and low skills.  I believe
    that the impact and responsibilities of pre-school teachers are
    comparable to those of elementary teachers (though vacation schedules
    are not!), yet around here they make something less than half as much
    money, even with the same level of training.  It stems in part from the
    unfortunate historical assumptions that daycare is custodial, more like
    babysitting than like teaching, and that staff are women who we can
    expect to "really" live on the salaries of their hisbands.
    
    		- Bruce

By the way, my son's daycare expenses nearly doubled within the first two
years he was there.  But I believe the initial rate was artificially low,
and is now reasonable.  Part of the increase was that the center was taken
over by a company whose business is child care (from a real-estate developer),
and they have a policy of paying their staff higher than average wages
and providing a decent benefits package, something few centers do.  The
decrease in the staff turnover rate once this went into effect was
astounding.

A single caregiver who is looking after 6 or more kids without support is
not providing quality care, in my view.

				Steve

    Just some comments from the base noter...
    
    My understanding is that this is not the first creche that the company
    has run. It may be the first that is privately held for a particular
    company. 
    
    To answer Bruce's question about wages...I was told when I took my job
    here to expect between a 25-50% DECREASE in wages. The UK pays that
    much lower in general. The kicker is that "things" generally cost about
    25% higher as well. I don't know how most of these people survive, even
    considering how many single-income families there still are!!
    
    Apparently DEC did approve the increase. We are meeting with DEC
    representatives first to find out what DEC's role exactly is in this
    creche. It was supposedly in "consultation with Digital Senior
    Management" - who ever they are!?!
    
    I don't argue that it is still good value for the money and if the
    increase are going to keep my son's favorite providers there, then
    that's great. I honestly don't think the level of service can get much
    better - they have excellent staff, facilities, and a darn good cook
    too. I think most of the parents are just shocked at such a jump.
    Besides the fact, the parents who go into the creche after its
    initial opening (myself included) were not told that the increase was
    planned for August but the literature states that annual increases
    would be expected - I figured January. Even the new literature states
    that "prices are set to reflect the local market rate for a similal
    service and are reviewed periodically in light of changing
    circumstances". The letter sent about the increase states "all things
    being equal I do not anticipate the necessity to increase fees again
    until August 1990". Which do you believe??
    
    My second will start at 3 months old come next April. The cost will be
    $245 per week. There are no breaks for subsequent children and we pay 
    50% for our 2 week vacation. I have 6 weeks vacation this year so I'm 
    paying an extra month's fees for services I don't get. 
    
    A few parents have stated that they will have to seek alternate care if
    the fees go up be the set amount and DEC doesn't help out. Maybe this
    could be a trail run for some DEC sponsored daycare in the States!!!
    We can only hope, right? 
    
    I'll keep you posted.
    
    Andrea 
                                     

>    People seem to often times mention that daycare providers don't earn
>    very much at all.  Then someone else has to remind them that these
>    people are watching 4, 6, 8, etc children - which certainly does
>    add up.  If they charged rates comparable to what we (or even
>    a McDonalds worker) earn, then they would have no business because
>    no one could afford to pay them that much.
 

   Before you think that home daycare is a big money job, please realize
that 40% of what you pay to your provider (home daycare) is paid back in
self employment taxes to the state and federal government. Sure you can 
claim expenses and part of your mortgage against this, but that's only a drop 
in the bucket.

  If a provider takes a vacation or holiday or sick day, they don't usually get 
paid (like we do at DEC).

 Also the state of Massachusetts only allows for 6 children in a home daycare 
at one time (including those who live there) and only 2 of them can be under
the age of 2. Not everyone is full time and if you have kids out because 
they're sick, the provider usually takes the loss of income. Then's there's
the parents who just pull out. ("took the buyout package, good-buy" , or
"just got laid off, sorry") try planning a steady income around that.


 Then there's the insurance issue, all kinds of liablilities.....


 Sorry to rant and rave but when I hear people whining about how overpaid
daycare providers are and speculating about how lucrative the business is, 
I have to present the views from the other side.


 Bob

    In re: .12
    
    "The cost will be $245 per week" seemed at first to apply to the 3
    month old alone, but reviewing .0, it's clearly for both kids.  Rates
    in the centers I've used are about 50% higher, but that still is a lot
    in relation to British wage levels (I mean the parents') from what I
    know of them.
    
    As to the literature, "prices are set to reflect . . ." sounds like
    content free prose provided by "Digital Senior Management."  "I do not
    anticipate the necessity . . ." sounds like it's from the Director.  I
    would believe the latter.  It sounds as if their fiscal year starts in
    August, and that is probably when staff salary increases are awarded. 
    But if in doubt, go ask the Director.
    
    		- Bruce (who has spent 5 years as Treasurer of 2 centers)

    Bob,
    
    I never said daycare providers are overpaid, nor do I remember anyone
    else saying so.  I never said they make big bucks.  BUT, when people
    say, "if you break it down they only make $2.00/hr which equals
    $100 for a 50 hour week", that isn't completely accurate unless the
    daycare provider is only watching one child.  If the daycare provider
    has 3 or 4 full timers and several part timers here and there, they
    do make better than $100 per week.  THAT is what I was saying.
    
    Donna
        

    re.6 -- your CW is only $71/week?  is that full or part time?  my 2.5
    year old is costing us $155/week as of june 1 -- full time!  even my
    part-time kindergartener was $90.  maybe we'll move west.......
    
    sandy

	Nah!  Move South.  We pay 55/wk for our daughter.  It'll drop to 51/week
when she moves from the infant room to the toddler room next week.

:-)

Tracey

         <<< Note 112.16 by ASABET::HABER "kudos to working mothers" >>>
              -< how much[read little]is your children's world?? >-

>>    re.6 -- your CW is only $71/week?  is that full or part time?  my 2.5
>>    year old is costing us $155/week as of june 1 -- full time!  even my
>>    part-time kindergartener was $90.  maybe we'll move west.......
    
>>    sandy


Yep, $71 for full time in the 2.5-3.5 year old room.  And at that they
do all sorts of wonderful activities like field trips almost every
week, swimming every Wednesday (for the summer in their little plastic
pool), etc.  Two snacks a day plus lunch, pot lucks for the parents,
etc.

Colorado Springs IS a wonderful place to be.

    Re previous by Bruce Collier on tensions between high and low pay.
    
    I don't see why there can't be more than one kind of day care
    offered: some which is expensive but provides all sorts of enrichment,
    and some which is cheap and merely custodial.  After all, that's the
    way the house or college or car market works.
    
    The existance of taxes makes the whole thing difficult: a parent
    pays with post-tax dollars but the day-care person is getting
    pre-tax dollars, driving a wedge between the price paid and the
    value received.
    
    			-John Bishop

    re .19, can you IMAGINE the conflicts which would develop with parents who
    chose the inexpensive 'economy package' daycare for their children? 
    That would set up a class structure all by itself.

    Why should there be any more trouble than we have with housing,
    where some people chose "plain" and some "fancy" or "extra fancy"?
    I guess the answer is "No, I can't imagine the conflict".  Please
    give me an example.
    
    As for class structure: we've already got one.  It's been around for
    centuries, and it's not going away.  So don't worry about setting one
    up.
    		-John Bishop

    I had a poor choice of words John, perhaps conflict would have been
    better replace with scorn.  "What type of daycare do YOU provide
    for YOUR child, first class or economy?" Whats my point?  That
    still another quality care issue is all we need. 

    Compare with "What kind of clothing/food/housing do YOU provide
    for YOUR child?"--how many of us buy top-of-the-line in all those
    areas?
    
    And it's not just an all-or-nothing choice: daycare can come in
    many varieties and grades, just as clothing and food can.
    
    If you don't like making quality choices, you have a problem: the
    world is full of such choices, and (unless you have infinite resources)
    you must make such choices every day of your life.
    
    I still don't see why scorn or conflict are indicated.  Please spell
    it out for me.
    			-John Bishop

    What a wierd conversation. You argue as if we all have these
    straight forward decisions, with an over abundance of childcare
    available, and we only need to decide just where and how to spend
    our childcare "budgets."  The reality is so very different than
    this! We struggle to find suitable childcare arrangements and 
    we rearrange our financial lives to pay for the childcare.
    We add miles to our commutes. We add hours to our work days.
    It often isn't worth it financially for us to return to work.
    Because of the low pay and low status of childcare work,
    we can't depend on our arrangements and often have to
    rearrange them several times a year. We struggle to
    make sure our children are happy and safe, and sometimes
    are forced to accept compromise. Every day, women make
    major career, financial, emotional decisions based on
    childcare difficulties.
    
    This moot point discussion is insulting. All parents deserve quality
    childcare options at reasonable cost.
    
    -barbara 
    
    

    re .24  That IS the way it is, for me too.  And, thats why I have 
    emphasized the business part of finding quality childcare as an
    important consideration.  One DOES have to rearrange ones financial
    life to pay for daycare.  Its also very important that the child
    receive quality care. Thats WHY I point out repeatedly that as 
    customers (not employers) we have a right to expect fair treatment
    back from the daycare providers, and that not have the resources of
    large corporations that we don't owe the daycare providers health
    care packages, paid vacations in addition to paying for and finding
    substitute care for our child while the daycare provider is on paid
    vacation, etc.  It should work two ways. Yes, we do owe the daycare
    person an amount of money which is fair for the services provided,
    but as you pointed out, reality intervenes, paying full working wages to
    the daycare provider for EACH child is not possible for most of us.

    My earlier point about criticism over whether a parent bought the best
    daycare possible for his/her child is ridiculous.  I hereby drop the
    issue.

    .24 > What a wierd conversation. 
    
    Agreed, substantially in line with the rest of this paragraph, . . . but
    
    .24 > You argue as if . . .
    
    I'm not sure who in this string gets included in "you."
    
    .24 > Every day, women make major career, financial, emotional 
    .24 > decisions based on childcare difficulties.
    
    I'm sorry, but that is pointlessly offensive, and can't pass without
    comment.  On the one hand, Jeff Gilman and I, both men, have been
    having at each other here, and disagree aplenty.  Yet nobody who has
    read a paragraph of our exchanges could seriously suggest that we don't
    both experience deep finacial and emotional dimensions concerning
    childcare issues, regardless of disagreements about implications.
    
    On a more personal level, I spent an extended time on part-time status
    when my spouse could not; due to chance and circumstance, I spent
    hundreds more hours than she dealing with daycare providers, and many
    thousands more miles transporting kids to daycare.  These circumstances
    have had no less impact on my career, finances, or emotions because I
    am male than if I had been female; perhaps the opposite.  Do you really
    want to be so alienating?
    
    .24 > This moot point discussion is insulting. All parents deserve quality
    .24 > childcare options at reasonable cost.
    
    Well, thank you for sharing your opinion.  What have you done about it? 
    Have you worked for political candidates who agree?  Have you served on
    the Boards of non-profit childcare centers?  Have you contributed to
    them in time, materials, equipment?  Have you thought about who might
    be insulted by what you say?

    For anyone who might still be folloowing the original intent of this
    note...an "agreement" was finally reasched after much struggle with
    Personnel and the other committees that there would be a phased in
    approach to the increase, starting with a 25% increase for all ages and
    the second increase for the under 2's come November.
    
    The parents of the daycare facility are still a little uneasy because
    of many contradicting statements made by Personnel. Things like the
    cost increase was to bring things in line with the other local daycares
    and the going rates. The increases are to make the facility
    self-supporting by January. They then tell us that after an in-depth
    struy that the costs will be evaluated and another increase is planned
    for February. If the 2 increases are to make it self-supporting by
    January, why another increase in February and when were the cost raised
    without an in-depth study and only on the recommendation of the daycare
    management. 
    
    Another major point is that Digital never intended to "subsidise" the
    facility. It was "always intended for it to be self-financing and
    non-profit making". How many daycare centers are set out to be
    non-profit making, really?? 
    
    There are still many unanswered questions. We have finally gotten a
    meeting scheduled with the management of the daycare and personnel in
    one room. It shall be interesting. I hope Digital is learning a lesson
    from this - I know all the parents sure are!! Maybe when daycare
    finally comes to the US, it will be alot smoother!
    
    Andrea

    I have a 5 year old son who will be entering kindergarden in September.
    My mother-in-law watched him until he was 2. He then had a home day
    care provider who charged $2.50 an hour and who in the 2 years he was
    going to him went up to $3.00. He has been in a Nursery School since January
    and I was paying $100.00 for 40 hours ($2.50 an hour). I'm in the process 
    of finding him home day care where he would need an hour before school an 
    4 hours after school 25 hours total a week. I'm finding that
    the cost is more like $4.00 an hour (just when I thought the expense of
    day-care would start to go down!) I'm looking for a play group
    type atmosphere as he will be going to school all morning. I'm just
    curious to know what other parents are paying for the same
    care I'm looking for. Do you think $3.00 an hour is unresonable for
    what I'm looking for? I live in Holliston Ma. I know alot depends on
    what town you live in. I'm in the process of finding out some
    information from the Day Care Referal Service but I was just wondering
    what others are paying for the same care for that age. Also if any
    happens to know of anyone in Holliston they can recommend they can
    reply to me off line. Thanks for any info.
    
    Andrea

    The day care my boys went to charged $40 a week for before and after
    school care (unlimited hours).  I just got a notice from their school
    that they charge $20 a week for after school care.  $100 seems
    unreasonable.  You could do better.  One option might be calling his
    school to see if they offer after school care.

    
    North Andover charges $80 a week for afterschool care.
    
    Instead of using the town after school care, the nursery school
    my daughter went to has a kindergarten class and I just send my
    girl to half day kindergarten program there. It's cheaper that
    way and better quality.
    
    I personally would not send my daughter to a family daycare for
    after school care. 
    
    
    Eva