Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I forgot to add my dtn 264-2139, and my first name is Sue.  Also, I
    am looking in the Wilton, Milford, Amherst (around 101A) area.  If
    anyone knows of a good center (or a bad one for that matter), please 
    let me know.  
    Thanks,

In addition to any replies you may get here, check note 10 and its replies.  
There were some excellent lists of questions (or maybe I should say lists of 
excellent questions), but I can't remember the specific notes.  Then go into 
the Parenting V2 and consult the notes.

Clay

Drop in unannounced several times, at different times of day.  Watch how the
teachers handle the children and how the children respond.

Is it clean?
Are the children happy?
What kind of food is being served?
Do they wash hands after diaper changes?
Is there enough room?  Light?  (Dark --> depression IMO)
What is the ratio (care givers to children)?

Obviously there should be some times of the day when things seem hectic, but
observe how the teachers handle it.

Also ask their philosophy on things like

Discipline
Holding (do they let children cry, or hold them when they cry)
Progression
Learning

Ask other parents who are dropping off/picking up, what they think.  What do
they like MOST about it?  What do they like LEAST about it?

What are the hours?  Penalty for arriving late?  (Some are very stiff)
Curriculum?
Requirements for teachers?  (xxx hours of childhood development training?)
Turnover?  How long has each teacher been there?

Also observe the rooms of ages HIGHER than your child, to make sure you would
be satisfied for the long-term.

Thats all I can think of now....
Good Luck!
Kristen

    I would _not_ make unannounced visits.  They might not even be in the
    room, and some centers have policies against this.  If possible, I
    would not bring my child along.  I would try to arrive pretty early, so
    I can see how they interact with parents.  And I would just sit quietly
    watching for quite awhile, talking to the teachers only when there are
    lulls (or if they let me help out).  I would probably want to visit at
    the end of the day, too, since the staff and program may be different
    (though I didn't think of this myself).
    
    If anything puzzles or bothers me, I would definitely discuss it with
    the teachers, for two reasons.  1) It may be normal behavior I am not
    used to, such as mini-separation-traumas at the begining of the day. 
    2) Feeling comfortable discussing things with the teachers is probably 
    the most important factor in your happiness with the center; good
    teachers will even be a wonderful resource for problems you may have at
    home.  I mean less that they have the "right answers" than that they be
    approachable and open, willing to discuss why they do things they way
    they do.  If nothing has in fact "bothered" me, I would try to come up
    with some concern to discuss with them, anyway.
    
    Experience in the first year of enrollment will be most crucial for you
    and your child, so I would heavily weight the quality of teachers in
    the initial room.  But I would also want some comfort with the director
    and the overall staff quality and stability.
    
    		- Bruce

>    I would _not_ make unannounced visits.  They might not even be in the
>    room, and some centers have policies against this. 

Bruce,

Why in the world would they NOT be in the room???  I would be very concerned
if the teachers were not in the room, or not maintaining sufficient ratios
for the age and number of students.   If you call ahead they can always prepare
for your visit and be "on their best behavior."   If you stop by unannounced you
see what it would really be like during the day when you are not there (nor are
you expected to be there).

In the literature that I have gotten (from the childcare referral service and
on my own), that is one of the top suggestions.  Another suggestion is that
you don't even consider a provider who does not allow parents to visit AT ANY
TIME FOR ANY REASON.   Maybe I don't give enough credit (my center is for profit,
and not run by the parents) but I heed this advice!

Kristen
 

    Yikes!  I didn't mean to alarm you, Kristen.  I just hope that
    everybody (kids and all) disappears periodically.  Nature walks, a
    visit to a different playground, an expedition to the local doughnut
    shop . . .  Two of the 3 sites I've used were surrounded by woods and
    fields, and did this all the time.  The other site was more urban, but
    they went to a duck pond, or for stories across the street at the
    public library, etc. . . .
    
    The other reasons centers like to schedule it is so that they will
    only have one or two visitors at the same time, so that there can be
    some time to answer questions.
    
    I don't buy the "best behavior" argument.  If you come at 8:30, and hang
    around until 10:00 or 10:30, you'll see a fairly typical slice of a
    day.  The parents and kids have no reason to pull the wool over your
    eyes, and the teachers will not be able to wave a wand and create a
    constructive cooperative atmosphere out of what is usually rancorous
    chaos.
    
    I do agree that a center that would not ALLOW a parent to visit at any
    time for any reason would be alarming.  But two observations.  It's
    very different to allow any non-parent visitors at any time for any
    reason; if I was a parent I would want outside visitors rather well
    controlled. Second, as a practical matter, it is often rather
    disruptive to kids to have a parent visit in the middle of the day, and
    then leave again; even those who have no separation trouble in the
    morning may have it later, if they aren't used to mid-day visits (this
    happened to me last week, after a mid-day class picnic).  So I
    personally wouldn't drop in unannounced unless there was some real
    change of plans, or I was really suspicious about something.
    
    		- Bruce

Yes I totally forgot about the off-site activities (Kati being only 17 months,
doesn't really participate in too many of those yet, just picnics on the
playground, and splash days on Thursday).   Our center has a schedule of events
each month so you know when the field trips are, but that doesn't help one
who doesn't already have a child there.

Perhaps you could call ahead and ask the schedule for the day/week/etc., and
ask if there is anytime that is *not* convenient to drop in, and why.  Then
decide on a couple of times to go, but still unannounced.  (I agree they can't
make the kids behave differently, but they can sure clean up the room, hide
unsafe or dirty things, and make *sure* to wash hands or wash little faces
before you arrive.  I know I would, even if I thought I had the perfect center!).

Yes that is a good point about separation anxiety.  If your kids are used to
going with you everytime you show up, it can be very disturbing to show up in 
the middle of the day and not take them with you!

Thanks for reminding me that not everyone has an infant!

Kristen

    Kristen -
    
    Your second paragraph seems to me to describe a reasonable (though
    slightly paranoid) way to proceed.  But I still find the underlying
    concept ("secret time") implausible.  Schedules vary so much that 
    _whenever_ I pass through there are a couple of other parents around,
    picking up kids, or whatever.  Indeed, I know no center where there
    aren't teacher's with kids as students.  I don't buy the idea of
    centers who hide the fact that their snacks are poisoned, or their
    staff homicidal (I am overstating this).  These are false questions,
    triggered by unneeded fears.
    
    Pre-school choices _are_ important, but the question is whether the
    teachers are "good," and I think parental instincts on an extended
    visit to a center are pretty valid on that question.  Without sneaking
    around.
    
    		- Bruce
    

	Bruce,
	
	I don't think that Kristen is suggesting that that they would be 
deliberately doing anything mailicious.  It just that  when things get hectic, 
people have a natural tendency to to cut corners.  Especially in states
where the allowed kid to teacher ratio is higher, its important to see what 
they do when things get hectic.  If you announce your visit, they 
can plan it so that you do not show up during a time that tends to be hectic.
I don't think this is deceitful, just the human tendency to put our best foot
forward.  (Don't we wear suits/dresses to interviews, whether or not that's our
"normal" attire?)  The problem is, as responsible parents we need to see what
it is *likely* to be like, not best case.

	In my case, I had several good friends whose judgement I trust and whose
kids are being raised well (as far as I can tell) that use the center that we 
decided to go with.  So I wasn't as paranoid as I might have been going in 
"cold".  I called the center director ahead of time and she did not require me 
to schedule my visit, just told me to drop in any time.  So I did and I saw a 
normal hectic afternoon and was pleased with what I saw.  

	Bear in mind that Mass has LOW student to teacher ratios.  I believe 
infant are 4:1?  Well S.C. the legal limit is 8:1 !  (Our center has a self-
imposed cap of 5:1 (but they usually maintain closer to 4:1).  But it is 
definately the exception in this area.)

Tracey

They daycare center we used informed us ahead of time if the children would be 
off site.  Frequently, the mechanism was a parental permission slip.  IMO, 
that is as it should be.  There are valid reasons that a parent might want to 
know where a child is, and there are valid reasons why a parent might not want 
a child to participate in a specific activity.  Sometimes those reasons may 
not be obvious to the daycare provider.

Also, they daycare center we used stated in writing that parents were 
encouraged to visit during the day, and made no mention of any requirement for 
advance warning.  They did say that if you came, you might be asked to help, 
and that the teachers may be occupied, which seems fair to me.

There are very few rules that are universal, and I think that the need for 
unscheduled visits are one of those that may or may not be necessary.  But
I also think that NOT making unscheduled visits shouldn't be a universal rule 
either.  It's a decision that a parent needs to make for him/herself.  If 
Kristen feels the need to, then she should do so.

I personally found that it was unnecessary to intentionally make unscheduled 
visits.  The fact that there were a fair number of times that either my wife 
or I had to make an unscheduled visit to deliver something we had forgotten in 
the morning, combined with the facts that the daycare center had parents in 
and out at all times during the day and that they did not strongly discourage 
visits during the day was enough to make me feel comfortable.  

Even if a parent does find it necessary to make occasional unscheduled visits 
to a daycare center, I can't imagine anyone having the time to do it often 
enough that it would become a burden for the daycare center.  So I don't 
think that the fact that there is any particular reason for discouraging a 
parent from occasionallly doing so.

Clay

    Tracey (.9) - I don't much disagree, and I would certainly want to know
    the number of kids and teachers at all times of day and week, whenever
    I was going to visit.  The ideal might be to spend a full day there,
    but in lieu of that, I would argue for peak arrival time as most
    important (and then hang around a couple of hours, as I said before),
    for 3 reasons.  1. I think teacher relations with parents is real
    important, and this is the point when most of that communication takes
    place, so you can see what it's like.  2. For some number of kids (and
    parents!) the point of separation will be quite stressful, and it's
    good to see how the teachers respond.  3. Partly because of 1 and 2,
    this time usually IS the most hectic time of day; kids are probably at
    peak number, plus there are parents (and siblings?) running around and
    wanting to talk to the teachers; teachers are probably trying to
    transition kids from free play to some more structured activities, etc.
    
    Clay (.10) - no, no.  The question was unscheduled visits by
    prospective parents, who of course have not filled out permission
    slips, or checked the announcement board at drop off time.  The only
    concern I've ever heard about mid-day visits from current parents at the
    centers I know is that it may upset the kid when the parent leaves
    again.  Having an unexpected reason to pick a kid up early is rather
    different, and happens fairly often, in my experience.
    
    		- Bruce

    I'm going to come down on the 'make an unscheduled visit' side of this
    one.  Over the years, my son was in 5 different group day care
    arrangements.  I visited unannounced at all of them, sometimes before
    and sometimes after his enrollment, and I'm really glad I did.  The
    centers were, in my experience, *very different* when parents were
    there and when they weren't.  I had one experience where I was left
    feeling that the center was going overboard on the safety and doing
    everything 'by the book' approach, but left my son there 'cause he was
    thriving.  I had another experience where after visiting in the middle
    of the day I picked my son up and took him home, never to return to
    that center.  (Long story, and 13 years old now.)
    
    Alison
    

    Well, I started this note, and I have been to 3 centers since then.
    I liked 2 of them.  I am going to bring my son by tomorrow (sort of
    unscheduled, I just said "tomorrow afternoon I will drop by").  I 
    feel better being unscheduled myself because of the "best behavior"
    issue.  I have faced this with my nanny, dropping back in after leaving
    for work and finding her doing something I specifically asked her not
    to do (microwaving formula).
    
    I am not sure how I will go about deciding between the two, or maybe 
    even checking further.  One of the places was set in a split level
    house, seemed to be very organized, the "living room" is the playroom,
    they have a wooden gate with a latch on the stairs, they have one of
    the "bedrooms" set up as the infant room.  She doesn't have any infants
    at this time (she took over in april and fixed up the house (tore out
    old carpeting, painted walls, put in new carpeting on hardwood floors). 
    Other rooms were full of toys, and the downstairs level was set up for
    a kindergarten she plans to start in the fall.  The woman were
    "mature."  There was a huge back yard to play in and the woman's
    husband is going to build a fence (this Friday) to separate infants
    from toddlers, etc. while outside.  This place looked very organized
    and the people were nice, and the one child I saw (Tues at about 5:30)
    seemed to be very happy and was singing God Bless America as they had 
    learned that day.   She is planning to buy strollers and more high
    chairs and porta-cribs as the infants come in.  She said she had 4
    infants (the state limit) scheduled to come in but the infants room was
    not ready yet.  They found other places to go.
    
    the other center I visited this morning was very different.  It was one
    big open room, with a felt board separating the toddlers' activity room
    from the main large floor.  There was a separation also for the infants
    sleeping room and a separate space which was like a kitchen.  this one
    does not provide hot meals like the other centers I spoke to.  The
    women working were young (20's, 30's).  There was a large yard with a
    not so great fence but it was totally shaded and sort of an out of the way
    area anyway.   It was very clean and the woman I spoke to was very
    excited about the place (she was not the director who I plan to meet
    tomorrow).  I got the impression that most of the kids were
    part-timers, (mothers who don't work?).   I will get more info on that
    from the director.  
    
    I think I sort of answered my own question while I was writing and
    going over this in my head.  Maybe my opinions came through?  In any
    case, I intend to "drop by" with my son tomorrow afternoon, around say
    4ish?  
    
    Anyone think I should check out more places?  (by the way, the first
    one I checked I did not like at all, it seemed dirty or something).
    Thanks
    Sue

re: .11

Thanks for remiding me what the original question was.  I personally would 
have a concern if a daycare center even ALLOWED unsupervised, unscheduled 
visits by adults who they don't know.  However, the past couple of notes have 
made a valid case for "suprise" visits.  I guess I'd have to say they are OK, 
but the should be preceded by at least one scheduled visit of sufficient 
length to get a good overview and to give the daycare center a chance to get 
to know you.  I also suggest having a visit overlap peak dropoff/pickup hours, 
as Bruce suggests.  That's when they are least likely to be able to be putting 
on an act, it's when many "situations" happen, so you can see how they handle 
them, and it allows you to see how the daycare center folks interact with 
parents.  I like .13's approach.

One other thing that occurs to me.  Remember that many daycare centers have a 
different program in the summer than in the winter, driven by weather, and by 
the fact that some, perhaps many, of the students go from part time to full 
time status in the summer.  Also, when you visit a place this time of the 
year, remember that in bad weather, that the inside has to be suitable for the 
children to be in full time.

Clay

    
    I'm just about to start looking for a child-minder for my 15 month old
    daughter, Rosie, (only for two mornings a week) and feel in need of 
    some good tips as to the type of questions to ask, what to look for in
    a child-minder, number of children Rosie would be mixing with etc. etc.
    Our local authority Social Services Dept. have provided a list of their
    registered child-minders, but it's up to me to ring round and find a
    vacancy etc.
    
    Please can anyone point me to an appropriate note in this file or offer
    any advice?  I'm in the UK by the way.
    
    Thanks in advance for any help.
    
    Ali
    

    I am interviewing potential full time babysitters for my 15 week old
    baby on Friday evening.   Could anyone tell me what sort of questions
    to ask, to make sure I pick the right person.
    
    Daniel has been minded by my parents up to now, but owing to ill
    health, they have to stop minding him.
    
    In Ireland full time babysitters are not licensed and Digital do not
    have the helpful information to get babysitters that they have
    in the States.
    
    Any help will be gratefully apreciated.
    
    
    Bernie

    Bernie,
    
    I'd ask a childminder (which is I think the term they use here in the
    UK) the following questions:
    
    * any professional qualifications (the UK has something called the
      NNEB, I think it stands for National Nursery Education Board. All
      nannies and nursery nurses must have this qualification)
    
    * if no professional qualifications, how much experience has he/she
      with babies of your son's age.
    
    * How many other children is he/she going to look after at the same
      time?
    
    * will he/she look after him in your own home or in his/hers?
    
    * how does he/she propose to spend the day with your son? Does he/she
      have other contacts (i.e. other childminders) in the area?
    
    * does he/she have First Aid training with emphasis on babies/infants?
      e.g. resuscitation etc.
    
    * can he/she give you references? I would follow these up in person,
      not over the phone. Body language can sometimes tell you more.....
    
    * Once you've made up your mind, I'd also go along to the local police
      station and have his/her name checked out. I know this sounds
      terrible, but we've all heard dreadful stories on the news about 
      childminders being known by the police as child molesters, something
      that could have been avoided if only the parents had bothered to
      check with the police.
    
    And finally I would let myself be guided by my instinct and by my baby.
    Let them spend some time together, let's say while you are making some
    coffee and see how the childminder reacts to your son and how Daniel
    gets on with him/her.
    
    Practicalities are:
    
    * which hours can this person work? How flexible are they, i.e. if you
      come back late because of a meeting or because you get stuck in
      traffic.
    
    * has he/she got backup in case of sickness? (You may be lucky and tap
      into a group of childminders who can cover for each other!)
    
    * is this person willing to babysit the occasional evening? Less
      stressful for Daniel if he already knows the person watching him.
    
    * has this person got their own transport? Useful for outings and
      essential for emergencies.
    
    * then there's a whole story about payments. I don't know the tax
      situation in Ireland, but here in the UK you have to be careful how
      much you pay your childminder before you become liable for National
      Insurance payments etc. Maybe a Mum from Ireland can fill you in on
      that.
    
    
    The above is just off the top of my head. I have just returned from
    Maternity Leave and my daughter Katrina is almost 7 months old. I'm
    very lucky - Digital here in Reading have a creche, s I didn't have to
    go through the selection process, but some friends of mine (all new
    mums) did, and I remember our group passing on tips and hints on how to
    find a reliable person.
    
    I wish you luck and hope you find an absolute treasure!!
    
    Kind regards,
    
    Gilla
    
    
    
     

    In addition to the questions listed in .17, I'd also ask a few others:
    
    Is this a non-smoking environment?
       This may or may not matter to you.  I refuse to send my child
       anywhere where the people smoke.
    
    Do you have any guns in your home (if that's where your child will be)?
       Again, a personal decision, but I don't want my child in a home
       where guns are kept because children are curious and in spite of
       good safe-keeping, lots of children are killed each year.
    
    Do you have any pets...if so, are they kept in the house while your
    baby is nearby?
       We happen to have 4 small dogs and 2 cats.  Only 1 of the cats is
       allowed in while our daughter is downstairs.  She can see and pet
       everyone of the pets, if we're there, but due to the nature of OUR
       pets, they could hurt her at her age, so we separate them.
       I'd prefer no pets at my daycare place, unless the caregiver is
       very careful that cats won't claw my daughter in the face (this has
       happened already), etc.
    
    What is your style of caring for babies? 
      By that I mean, my first daycare provider wasn't affectionate at all
      and tended to leave her own baby, and mine to themselves most of the
      day.  I never saw her hold them unless they were having a bottle.  We
      like to hold and kiss our daughter a LOT, so I was happier with our
      current daycare person, who happens to be very loving and
      affectionate.
     
    I'm not trying to start any heated discussions by mentioning these
    questions, because everyone has their own strong opinions, but you
    might want to think about them...and choose the type of person that
    matches your own viewpoints.
    
    Good luck,
    Robin

    Thanks for all your help, I will ask these questions tomorrow and
    hopefully get the right person.
    
    Re:: .18   This might seem a silly question, but how do you know
    the daycare provider is affectionate, can't she try to fool me by
    being all over Daniel while I am there.    I want to get a very
    affectionate person for him.
    
    
    Bernie

    Bernie,
    
    I don't know how you got your short-list of babysitters, but I strongly
    recommend getting in touch with the Social Services who hold their own
    lists of Registered Childminders and contacting one of these.  I myself
    am a registered childminder, it took me a year of careful vetting,
    police checks on both me and my husband, having my house inspected and
    where necessary modified before giving Registered status.  I have a
    contract with Social Services which sets down rules about how many
    children and of what age I can look after.  Also the Social Services
    provide Childminders with Insurance.  As for knowing if someone is 
    affectionate, I would ask to see them in their own environment, rather 
    than at your house, and if she has looked after children before, I would 
    ask for the name and no of one who could provide a reference for you.   
    Anyone with nothing to hide would be happy to do so.  Beware of the one 
    who is not happy in giving out this information.
    
    Also make sure you have a contact drawn up between you and the
    childminder (again also available from Social Services), stating things
    like how many days notice the childminder will give you if she wishes
    to have holiday etc.  In my contact I have to provide the name of a
    backup childminder who, if I was ill at short notice, would be able to
    temporarily look after the children, therefore not leaving the parents
    in an awkward situation.
    
    If you want further information about Registered Childminders please
    feel free to talk to me off line (USH_FACILITIES @USH) or 7849 3200.
    
    Barbara Hough
    

       Hi,
       Moderator:  Please move if discussed somewhere else.
       I've recently joined the notes file - I"ve looked at all the
       keywords, and even perused the thousands of topics in previous
       versions of parenting...  I've seen related notes but none 
       answering my question:
    
       I'm interviewing Day Care providers.... I'm new at this.
       My son is 2months old.
    
       I'd appreciate advice on what to ask, look for,  What distinguishes
       the best from the mediocre?  Ideal number of infants per Adult, etc...
       Also a women has been referred to me (I respect the referral's
       opinion) but the women is not liscensed - What does liscensing
       insure (I'm located in Mass.)   
    
       Feel free to share your experiences in how you found the 'best'.
    
       /peter

      Thanks to the moderator for pointing me to this topic..
      Also a quick thanks to the participants who sent me mail.
    
      Sounds like the best advice I've gotten is to schedule a visit
      at the day care site.... and then conviently get the time wrong
      and show up an hour or so early!
    
     ... A little devious but effective?
    
     /pete