Conference moira::parenting_v3

The center my son attends, which is now Bright Horizons but was formerly
run by Flatley, used to close for two weeks, one usually around July 4, and
one week between Christmas and New Years.  We were not required to pay
for those weeks.  About a year or so ago, they changed to being open all
year, and you were required to pay for all the weeks, whether your child was
there or not (for example, if you were on vacation).  Perviously, they also
allowed a child to be taken out for two weeks per year without needing to
pay if you let them know two weeks in advance.  That too is no longer in
effect.

I'd say you'd better get used to it, because once your child is in grade
school, it's going to be a LOT more than two weeks per year!

				Steve

My center is closed only on major holidays.  We are allowed to take two weeks
of "vacation" (where we don't pay) each year, but I would have been willing to
pay for those two weeks - after all, they give their staff PAID leave, and I
get paid while I'm on vacation.

I would have a problem with the closings, but it seems you knew about them
so that's really not an issue.

Kristen

BTW - my daughter goes to Children's World.

    My daycare is open all year except for the usual holidays.  BUT - you
    pay for the whole year regardfless of when you take your vacation. 
    Their instructors take their vacations when they please, with
    substitutes filling in.  The policy is tho' that if you take three or
    more weeks in a row, they will negotiate subtracting that from the fee
    schedule.
    

    The day care Steven went to for 2+ years (Hobby Horse, Nashua) was
    closed for Christmas.  One year they closed for one of the spring
    break weeks, but last year they didn't.  They charge half price
    for those weeks and for the weeks when you're on vacation.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    The one my daughter goes to in N.Andover opens year round and we
    can take 2 weeks off without paying, during the school year.
    In the summer, they run it like a summer, signing up and paying
    by the week.
    
    
    
    Eva.

The daycare center my son goes to requires you to pay for 52 weeks,
regardless of whether your child is there or not.  They close on the
major holidays (about 10 per year).  Two holidays do not coincide with
Digital's holidays (President's Day and Columbus Day) and we have to
take those days off from work.

The staff there is allowed to take their vacations when they please (I
think).  Unlike other centers mentioned in these replies, they don't
hire substitutes when staff members are on vacation.

� �ori

Of the three situations that we used the most, these were the practices:

	- Home daycare situation: we paid only for days our children were 
	  there.  She didn't even charge us for days on which we canceled 
	  at the last minute, because one or both of our children were sick.  
	  I think that this last provision is unusual, and we generally
	  insisted on paying, particularly in light of the fact that her
	  rates were well below market.

	- Daycare center: we were allowed two weeks vacation per year,
	  for which we did not pay.  There was a requirement of advance
	  notice, but I don't remember how much.  They were open year
	  round, but took holidays, for which we paid.  Some of those
	  holidays were not Digital holidays.

	- Extended day program: was open only when school was in session,
	  which means that they were closed during the school holidays.
	  Rates were stated on a monthly basis, so I guess you could say
	  we paid for the vacation weeks.  The monthly rate didn't vary,
	  even for June, when they were open only a little over half of
	  the month.  But they did give a half month discount for June
	  if you paid on time.

We live in the greater Maynard area.

Just as a side note, when evaluating the cost of daycare, I think that it's 
best to look at the cost of daycare over the entire amount of time that you 
need it, and not sweat out the specific practices.

Clay

    The daycare center that my son goes to, opens year round and only
    closes on major holidays (about 10 days per week).  Some of these
    holidays are not Digital holidays, we have to take a day off too.  
    We are allowed to take two weeks of vacation per year which we 
    don't pay.  The staff at the center are allowed to take vacation
    any time and the center will have substitiues.
    The center is located at Hudson, MA.
                                                  
    Wendy  

�    closes on major holidays (about 10 days per week).  Some of these

Gee, I wish Digital gave 10 holidays per week.  :^)  ;^)  :^)

Clay 

    Eric's preschool closes the last week in August, and there is no
    tuition rebate. Parents who require care can arrange it from
    substitute staff, but pay extra.
    
    Having been treasurer of both this pre-school and Aaron's extended day
    program (both non-profit) for several years, I know there is no "right"
    approach that avoids misunderstandings.  It is clearly simplest to have
    uniform billing that ignores varying month lengths, or when closings
    fall.  But parents are apt to think they are getting ripped off.  At
    the pre-school, there was prolonged concern from a few parents about
    what came to be called "The Monday Problem" - the perception that there
    are a lot more holidays falling on Mondays than other days of the week
    (e.g. Memorial Day, Labor Day, . . .), so that families with Mondays in
    their schedule were paying the same for less service than families
    without Mondays in their schedule.  For some particular year I tallied
    every holiday, and it turned out that there were about two more
    holidays on Monday (that year) than the average of Tuesday through
    Friday.  Now, it seems to me irrational to arrange your life schedule
    around so trivial a difference, but enough families did so that we were
    somewhat under-enrolled on Mondays (apart from needing to discuss this
    "Problem" year after year).  So we eventually switched to billing that
    reflected actual holiday experience.
    
    At extended day, people can understand the opposite approach.  School
    days per month fluctuate a lot, of course; low, for example, in
    December, February, April, and June.  Yet we just divide the annual
    tuition rates into 10 equal payments.   Similiarly, staff on salary get
    uniform pay, regardless of the calendar.
    
    		- Bruce

	I'm in Greenville, S.C.  Our daycare only closes on major holidays.  
They are even open on days that I don't have to work.  (I.e. they'll be 
open, if needed, the day after Thanksgiving but I don't have to work then.)
(I say, if needed, because they poll us ahead of time.  If no one needs them 
they will close.  If a limited number of people will be in, they will 
open a few rooms, (combine the 2 year old and 3 years and so on) and give some
of their staff the day off._)

	We pay for the days they are closed.  We are allowed to take one
one week vacation a year without having to pay for it. 

Tracey 

    My son is in a home daycare arrangement.  We do not have a contract
    and have not discussed some of the issues raised here (maybe we
    should :-) !)   As yet, his daycare provider has only asked for
    a couple of days off for dr appts or whatever and we have made up
    the time  (I work a 4 day week, so we just swap days).   I pay her
    for all DEC holidays and for whatever time we take off as vacation.
    I am open to paying her for a week of vacation of her own but it
    hasn't come up yet.   I guess that I feel I'm just passing on the
    benefits that I'm offered at Digital...she's good to us, so we try
    to be good to her!
    
    cj/

    My infant son is in homecare and we are entitled to two weeks vacation
    where we don't have to pay, but we also have to pay them (two sisters)
    for one week each (of their chosing) - so it balances out, if you
    will.
    
    My daughter is in a daycare situation and during the summer months,
    it's pay as you go.  If she only goes two days in a week, than we
    just pay for two days, three days=pay for three days, etc.
    
    Good childcare is so hard to find so I don't mind paying whatever
    it takes, if the people are good.  I agree with a previous noter
    who says if the overall yearly pay is within ones budget, don't sweat
    the small stuff.                                 
    
    -ali
    

    My wife started a home daycare after trying to balance career and the
    2nd child.  We have seen this problem from both ends.  We decided that
    if daycare is provided you get one week off at no expense.  Above that
    most people are still compensated and so should the provider.  Your
    expense doesn't change.  However when daycare isn't provided (she goes
    on vacation and you find someone else to mind the little tikes) you
    don't pay.  Why should you have to pay double for daycare that week.
    Lisa doesn't get payed vacations.
    
    This applies to sick time also.  Lisa doesn't get sick time.  It hurt
    us financially especially when we go on vacation but life goes on.  
    One mother pays Lisa for sick time anyway (thanks Mary).  
    
    A good daycare is hard to find, don't abuse it by fighting over money.

    re:.14
    
    The only thing I can say about home daycare and vacations is that
    when you open a home daycare, you go into business *for yourself*.
    That usually means that you don't get paid vacations - period.
    The parents of the children you watch are not your employer, but
    simply someone who is paying for a service that you provide.  I
    was in business for myself for a long time as a free-lance computer
    graphic illustrator and *nobody* paid for me to take a vacation.
    That's just one of the things you have to accept about going into
    business for yourself.  My husband has his own business and
    consequently no paid vacation time.  That's just life.  If my daycare
    provider decides to take a vacation and I have to pay her AND another
    person to watch my child while she's away, then I'd switch providers.
    Now, I don't want to start all kinds of arguments here - that's just
    my opinion.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    I don't think that I'd be willing to pay 2 people.  However, I would
    try to arrange our vacation to coincide with my daycare provider's
    vacation (if she took one and if she had a real preference for when)
    and would pay for the week.   I think that would be a simpler 
    solution - for me and baby - then trying to arrange a one-week
    filler.
    
    cj/

    The reason I replied here is because just last week my daughter's
    sitter told me that she'd like to have the last week of July off
    and asked if it would be too inconvenient to find alternate care
    for her.  Asking me to pay her for that week never even entered
    her mind.  Also, (again, my opinion) I work hard to earn my vacation
    pay.  Why should I take my vacation when my daycare provider takes
    hers and hand her over the money I worked for?  The way I see it,
    no service = no pay.  I realize that it's not this way in daycare
    centers and that's one of the reasons why my daughter isn't in one.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    If your sitter and you see eye to eye, then that's all that
    counts!   However, your note almost implies that you work hard 
    for your vacation pay, but that your sitter does not.  I guess
    that I'm of the opinion that our daycare provide works hard and
    deserves some vacation pay as well.  Agree to disagree?
    
    cj/   

    I never said that my sitter doesn't work hard.  She just happens
    to work for *herself*.  She is her own employer and employers are
    the ones to give vacation pay.  I never expected my clients to
    pay me when I worked for myself.  Yes, I suppose I do agree to
    disagree however contradictory that statement is to me.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    My daycare provider is of the frame of mind that she's working for me. 
    That's what she tells all her friends, and truthfully, I kind of like
    it.  She's always willing to do things the way I want since not only am
    I the mom, but I'm also the boss.  When I "hired" her, we agreed that I
    would take x number of vacation weeks, during which time I wouldn't pay
    her.  (I don't think _she's_ taking any vacation).  She agreed to
    this, but sometime later asked me if I got paid when I took vacation. 
    I said "oh yes, Digital pays me for 4 vacation weeks a year".  She said
    well if you get paid vacation, why don't I.  I reminded her we agreed I
    wouldn't pay her for the weeks I was on vacation, but I _did_ feel like
    kind of a jerk.
    
    As someone said a few replies back, good daycare is hard to find so
    don't blow it by making too much of a fuss over money.
    
    I'm thinking of giving her a raise after six months since she's doing
    such a good job.

Our daycare provider has approximately 6 children, encompassing only about 
four families (it used to be more).  Two of us have two children there.  

The agreement when we signed the contract was we get two weeks unpaid per year,
and that we have the discretion as to when those two weeks occur.We can either 
not pay her when we are on vacation, or when she is on vacation.  She is also
very considerate and tries to schedule her vacations very far in advance, or
if it looks like almost everyone is going to be gone, she'll do it then.   

When you think about it, everyone puts together a budget on a yearly basis, 
and you have to have something to base that on.  In our case, we realize that 
when our family goes on vacation, we reduce her income for that week by almost
thirty percent!  Imagine doing that for anytime we take vacation.  I would not
think that that is free. 

In reference to past comments about being 'self-employed'.  While you may not
overtly pay someone for 'holiday' time when you are selfemployed, the rate that
you do charge is usually based on a function of expected  billable 
hours, and expected expenses, over a full time period.  Therefore, we are, 
really paying any self-employed person for vacations/holiday, becuase the rate
is adjusted for that. 

Anyway, my point is that I have no problem contracting with my daycare provider
to pay here $5,000/yr per child.  Digial agrees to pay me a yearly amount - 
how they distribute it is a logistics issue - as long as I receive the same 
amount every year.  

    re:.15
    
    	Kathryn,
    		I agree.  If we don't provide service you don't pay.  The
    	service is provide, however, when you are on vacation and the daycare 
    	provider isn't.  You don't have to pay two people when service isn't
    	provided.  That is what I stated in re:.14. I believe that this is
    	an equatable situation. 
    
    	I disagree with the employer issue.  What the difference if
    	your service (provided full time 40+ hrs/wk) is for Digital or an
    	individual.  As long as everything is agreed upon up front. 
    	Benefits are offered to make people want to work for you.  
    	One benefit a daycare provider can have is expecting payment for
    	a certain number of weeks per year.
    
    	Dave

    Now that I've re-read an earlier response of mine, I realize that
    I wasn't completely clear.  The way I have worked this issue with
    my daycare provider is that when *she* wants to take a vacation,
    she doesn't get paid.  I can either take my vacation then if I
    choose, or wait til later.  If I take it later on, then I feel
    obliged to pay her in order to keep a slot open for my child
    because she is "on duty" so to speak.  If she and I take time off
    simultaneously, then I get a break because she's not available to
    watch my child.  But I do pay her if my child is sick even though
    she doesn't require me to.  From the very beginning, she told me 
    that she charges hourly and I am only required to pay her for the
    hours my child is in her house.  What I really intended to say earlier
    was that I don't feel that my daycare provider should dictate when I
    take my vacation just so I can avoid paying two people for one job.
    
    - Kathryn
    

When I was in Seattle, I looked at day care for Sammy if I needed
to care for Sam should Judy need to take care of my sick mom. I
found that there is a waiting list and that tuition is paid
upfront, if you take the child out during that month, your space
remains and that you don't get the money back. If I tell the
center that I will be taking Sam for a week during Thanksgiving,
say, then I am not charged for that week.

Now in areas like Colorado Springs, we take Sam in and out of Day
care and they only charge us for the days that he's there. I
think the variations in differences in Daycare places are very
much business driven; what's right for Boston area may not be ok
in Bosie, Idaho.

calvin

    I find this controversy a little strange.  Caretaker A charges $96 per
    week, 52 weeks a year, including during her 2 week vacation, and your 2
    week vacation.  Caretaker B charges $104 per week, but her 2 weeks of
    vacation and your 2 weeks of vacation are "free."  Whichever provider
    you choose, you get the same service, and pay $5,000 per year.  So who
    cares?  
    
    If they both charged the same rate per week, of course Caretaker A would
    be slightly more expensive (about 8%).  You could decide if there was a
    corresponding difference in quality to justify this.
    
    I think the only important issues is having a clear understanding up
    front.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    p.s.  I find it slightly unfortunate that a number of entries seem to
    assume that the "right" vacation time for a provider is one week per
    year.

    Bruce,
    
    You forgot to add on the extra amount you would have to pay a
    replacement sitter.  And, in my case, my sitter takes off roughly
    three to four weeks per year.  That would be an additional $600.00
    per year for me to pay.  Maybe it's not a lot to you, but I can
    think of a lot better things to do with $600.00 than to pay someone
    for time that they're *not* taking care of my child.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    re: .27
    I still don't get it...why not make a reasonable effort to make
    some of your 4 weeks align with her 3-4 weeks.   It would seem to
    be the best all-around solution unless you have specific vacation
    plans that aren't flexible.   I think I'm missing something....
    
    

    re:-1
    
    I get two weeks - not four.  I like to take one in the Fall and
    one in the Winter.  She takes her time in the Sring and Summer
    when it's not convenient for me.  The whole thing is, my sitter
    doesn't have a problem about not getting paid when *she* decides
    to take a vacation so this works out for me.  The last thing I
    will say on this matter is that I will *not* pay someone to take
    a vacation and also pay someone else to watch my kid.  I can't
    afford it.  If I could afford to throw money away like that, I
    wouldn't have to work.  Also, I do not not work in order to support
    my babysitter.
     

    My daycare provider considers herself "my employee" with many of the
    benefits a corporate employee should get at my expense, "since I
    work for a big Corporation".  Therefore as far as vacations go she
    takes two weeks off and we pay her for one.  During the summer she
    expects our son to be picked up an hour early so she can 'spend more
    time with her family' which of course does not involve a corresponding
    decrease in price... she still gets paid for a 40 hour week even
    though she is working 35 for us during the summer.  If we keep our
    son out of daycare (at our choice) she still get paid full rate.  There
    is some give and take in the sense of hours.... that is if we want to
    shift the hours a bit she does bend some.  We pay her $ 95 per week.
    She cares for 4-5 kids at the same rate.  She makes darn near as much
    as I do total and on the average works LESS THAN 40 hours a week for us.
    Does she provide 'quality care', yes for the most part.  Is it worth
    it? We have little choice about the whether of daycare... our choice
    involves WHO provides it and they all have their plusses and minuses.
    Jeff

    In re: .27
    
    Let me try the example again, tailored to your circumstances.  As I
    understand it, you are (approximately) paying $125 per week for each of
    52 weeks per year; total: $6,500.  This includes 2 weeks when you are on
    vacation, and 4 weeks when she is on vacation.  You also must pay $600
    for a replacement sitter; grand total: $7,100.
    
    Now, if another sitter offered equal quality service at $125 per week
    for only the 46 weeks of actual service (no charge during anybody's
    vacation), you would pay her $5,750.  Factoring in the $600 replacement
    cost gives total costs of $6,350.  You would be paying $750 less, or a
    10.6% savings.
    
    More likely, the other sitter would charge $141.30 per week for each of
    those 46 weeks (since her expenses, taxes, desire for profit, etc. are
    the same, she basically needs the same gross income).  Cost to you:
    $6,500.  Cost including replacement sitter: $7,100.  Savings: $0.
    
    The only real questions are the total annual costs to you, and the
    quality of the service.  It is essentially irrelevant whether you
    spread your payments to the primary provider over 46 or 50 or 52 weeks. 
    It is irrelevant whether there are some weeks when you are paying two
    different providers (except to your temporary cash flow).  I feel you
    are making a mistake if you turn this into an emotional question about
    what is _fair_, rather than an arithmetic calculation of the relative
    total annual costs of different alternatives.
    
    		- Bruce

    re: .26
    
    Bruce,
    
    Why do you find it unfortunate that people think 1 week is the
    "right" amount of paid vacation?  (I'm not sure who all said 
    this, but suspect I might be one of the people).
    
    My take is that I'd be willing to pay for one week of daycare
    provider's vacation choice in addition "our" vacation choice
    (probably 2 weeks per year).   
    
    What do you think is the "right" amount?  Or, what is the intent
    of your comment?
    
    cj/

    You raise a couple of valid point Bruce, they are thatwhat really
    counts is the total cost per year and the quality of the care.
    
    My darcare providers rational that since I work for a big Corporation
    and get a paid vacation she is entitled to the same benefits at my
    expense is equivalent to my saying that since President Bush earns
    X dollars per year and since I am a taxpaying citizen that I should
    get the same salery as he does. She MAY be entitled to a paid vacation,
    but not BECAUSE I am.
    
    But the two mains points mentioned in my first sentence do help ease
    the quirks of daycare.
    
    Jeff

    I don't know how to determine the "right" amount of vacation for anyone
    (Europeans typically get much more than Americans).  But I can't really
    see why daycare providers deserve (need) less than virtually any other
    job.  It seems as if there is a tendency to just think of care
    providers as substitute parents, and since there are no paid vacations
    from parenting, why should there be any for providers?
    
    Again, the issue is not whether they are compensated on a
    "self-employed" model.  If they do not charge for the weeks they
    are on vacation, then they are fully justified in charging more for the
    weeks when they are providing service, so that they can afford to take
    unpaid vacation.
    
    Even if a some do get "paid vacation," they are basically self
    employed, without fringe benefits.  They have no health insurance,
    retirement program, disability coverage, group life insurance,
    employer-paid social security, etc. etc.  The value of such benefits
    could quite easily amount to 50% or more of their gross income;  they
    are correspondingly underpaid if compared to a more conventional job on
    a $/hour basis.
    
    Is the vacation benefit that Digital provides "too much"?  Do homecare
    providers deserve less for some reason?  I helped to get Eric's
    pre-school to offer its teachers exactly the same vacation time as DEC.
    
    		- Bruce
    
    

    I agree with your point Bruce, that is that daycare providers are as
    entitled to a vacation as anyone else.  I think the issue with me was
    in the WAY she worded her 'request'.  She, as I basically chose the
    respective jobs we are employed at.  Each of those jobs has advantages
    and disadvantages.  I don't 'owe' her anything except paying her weekly
    salary for my sons' care and being a reasonable person regarding
    business issues which come up regarding my sons' care.  Business in the
    sense that her providing the care is a profession and I am the customer.
    If she wants a job which has package benefits such as DEC provides
    perhaps she should get out of the daycare business and join a company
    that provides them.  I don't use examples of my work as justifications
    as to why I should pay her less.  If the daycare profession needs to be
    updated so that the benefits match other industries then she should
    clearly state her requirements and see if the market will bear it
    instead of whining as to why I get X vacation SHE should get X
    vacation.
    
    I probably come across cold in the above statements, I don't mean them
    to be.  I am trying to say that when I hear people whining about their
    jobs and justifying increased costs to be BECAUSE I have a decent job
    I take the postition I took in my earlier note. i.e. Because President
    Bush makes more money than I do doesn't mean he OWES ME a better
    salary just because I whine "you make more than I do, therefore I want
    more money". The daycare provider came across that way when she
    'requested' her vacation time.  A better approach would be a flat
    statement of what her requirements were, then I could choose to satisfy
    them or not.   Jeff

    Wow, I am really surprised at some of the attitudes here!   Very 
    good daycare is difficult to find.   If we take the attitude that
    daycare providers should just find another job if they want some
    benefits, there won't be anyone *good* left to provide this service.
    
    If I entrust the care of my child to someone, I must have a lot of 
    confidence and respect for that individual as a daycare provider
    AND as a *person*.   As such, I WANT to compensate her fairly with
    $$$, benefits, and respect.
    
    Guess I'm just a softie.....cj/

    We haven't needed daycare on a regular basis as yet, but may do this
    fall for my wife is contemplating starting work after many years at
    home.
    
    I do find this conversation peculiar too.  I must admit I tend to
    take Jeff and Bruce's stances ... but the problem with it all is
    that for many homecare providers, they tend not to feel that they
    are in business in the traditional sense, and many care requestors
    have the same attitude.  "It's a cottage business and doesn't really
    count".
    
    There are two ways for a daycare provider to be in business ...
    
    One as your employee and therefore the t&c s must be worked out
    on that kind of basis ... This makes most sense where you are the
    provider's sole client.  You must provide him/her with vacation or  
    vacation pay and whatever other benefits you negotiate between you 
    on a fair, legal, and reasonable basis.
    
    The other is that the provider is a company providing a service.
    In this case, you should pay for service provided ... if the
    provider or you take a holiday, then they are not providing the
    service and you shouldn't pay.  Now, when you are on holiday, they
    may choose to charge a retainer to maintain the space.  When they
    are on holiday, they should not charge you for service, unless
    they provide an alternative.
    
    In practice, what obviously happens is that in most cases, the
    distinctions become blurred ... very few are truly in the first
    category since you would be truly an employer with all that that's
    involved and very few fall in the second category, except centres.
    Add to that the fact that you are dealing with individuals on a face
    to face basis rather than with faceless corporations, whereupon
    "negotiation" takes on emotion.  Remember, the care provider is a
    business and it is up to them to work out their t&c s.  Their
    t&c s are what is fair to them ... it's up to you to decide if their
    fees and t&c s are fair for you ... not for them.  If their t&c s
    work out unfair on themselves, then that is not your problem until
    such time as the provider changes them.  A daycare arrangement is
    a business ... The provider's skill, personality and so on are a
    part of the service and should be used to determine if the service
    is providing quality care ... it should not be a factor in
    negotiating t & c.
    
    So, for a provider to determine their fees, they must determine
    their total desired 52 week income, including providing their own
    benefits as required and other costs and produce a per week charge
    by dividing it by the number of weeks they are expecting to provide
    service for, or dividing it by 52 and producing an equalized per
    week charge.  The advantage of the equalized cost to the care giver
    is obvious ... regular income.  To the service requestor, it may
    or may not work out to their benefit depending on when and how many
    weeks holiday you take.  Remember that while you are on holiday,
    any fees paid can be looked at as a retainer.
    
    I would prefer the "pay for service" used approach, but as long as the
    equalized payment scheme is used and the cost is the same or lower
    than the annual pay for service cost, then I have no objections, taking
    into account the additional cost of providing care while the provider
    is on vacation.  In fact, I would expect equalized payment to be 
    marginally lower because of the guarantees it provides to the provider.
    
    But, in the end, only you can decide if you are getting value for
    money.
    
    Stuart

   I've stayed out of this one - since I am not using any of the
   services described here I didn't have much to say.  But I think
   Stuart has just about summed it up:

>>     <<< Note 97.37 by KAOFS::S_BROOK "It's time for a summertime dream" >>>
    
>>    But, in the end, only you can decide if you are getting value for
>>    money.
   
   I agree that this is the bottom line - business in general only
   works when both the business owner and the client believe they are
   receiving fair compensation - the owner wants to receive fair
   payment for goods and services provided, and the client wants to
   receive fair value for the dollars paid.  If you can come to that
   point when negotiating arrangements, then by default, I believe its
   a "fair" deal.
   
   - Tom
   

    The noter who started out "Wow" points out the impression I thought
    people would hear loud and clear. That is they hear mainly that my
    position is purely business and to hell with the human factor and
    how it affects the kids.  OF COURSE the human element and the
    atmosphere are of paramont importance, so much so that many noters
    seem to forget that it is ALSO a business arrangement and money is
    involved.  I view daycare in two ways.  1. Is it a quality atmosphere
    I want my son in on a daily basis?  2. It is also a business
    arrangement and the business part must suit both me and the daycare
    provider.  I was addressing the business part only with regard to
    my comments about benefits and vacations. 
    
    I get upset when the daycare provider throws in bennies as an
    afterthought at my expense which hadn't been worked out before.  Such
    as, a week before the event. "oh by the way I am going to be on
    vacation the first half of July, you must still pay me full salary,
    and you will have to find a sub while I am not available".   
    
    I object, and the reply is "Well, YOU get a paid vacation, why
    shouldn't I?! |   Thats not the point. Maybe she should get a paid
    vacation but lets deal with it up front and be clear about the details.
    
    In fairness to her this is the exception and generally I am satisfied
    or my son would not be there anymore.  

    I have used the same Provider for the last eight years. My oldest
    child only goes for the Summer  and some School Holidays.
    
    Over the years the Day Care Association in this State has been trying 
    different ideas about how to keep Good Providers in the business and
    prevent them from burnout. Some ideas that have been tried in our
    circle of friends and day care Providers is training each of the
    parents to do subcare and having them take one day per child in care 
    and do subcare for that time. This gives our Provider a week of paid 
    Vacation for the other weeks she hires a sub to do care in her home
    while she is gone.
    
    This method has draw backs but some of the +s all benefit the child.
    Care is done by people known to the child.  i.e. Emmy's mom or
    Devin's dad. The kids see these people for a short time everyday
    when the playmates get dropped off and picked up.
    Cathy is also careful to pick co-clients that she could trust leaving 
    the children with(Remember she is in this business to stay and referrals
    are what keeps her full when current clients grow out of care.)
    WE also know the people who are doing care as we run into them every
    once and a while
    
    This last year I could not take time off when she wanted to go on
    vacation so she started to offer that we pay the sub for that day 
    that we would have had to work. We were very happy with the option 
    and now prefer to pay the sub to work for us. When every one pays
    either pays the sub for them or works the day and use a vacation
    at work the price of giving the Provider a well deserved vacation
    is not as high.
    
    I do look at my Provider as a co-parent. She has helped me with 
    behavior problems and in a pinch will do care on a week-end.
    This year for a birthday present she gave me and my husband
    the offer of doing an overnighter(for free) as a birthday present.
    She considers all aspects of my family in her business and has given 
    my children better coping skills because she knows me and my parents
    She is a wonder.
    
    I did give her her first raise when digital gave me mine. She was
    pleased, and very surprised. Every raise I have received she has been 
    given part of it.Lately the raises are farther between but I can do
    other things to show her I appreciate her. Like bring over the extra 
    milk that I forgot to tell the milk person we would not need this week
    or make a special snack ECT. I found out that other clients were 
    giving her bonuses at Christmas time. I asked her if she would
    would like to have a Digital Stock. It has become a tradition
    for me to take one of my stocks each October or November and 
    get it transferred to her name. 
    
    Over the years she has remembered birthday parties and when children
    leave they get a farewell party, She always makes sure that the children
    feel loved even when they have made a mistake. She teaches them its not 
    bad to make a mess or a mistake just do your best to clean it up. I was 
    so impressed when a small child probably 1 went up and hit my daughter
    2 or 3 yrs old at the time and my daughter gently took the child's hand
    and guided it and said "No, No, Sally use a gentle touch... Like this... 
    This is a gentle touch...." She had modeled behavior taught by the
    Provider.
    
    Benefits to me and my child:
    
    I have someone who loves my children like her own and strives to
    teach them the same values and morals I respect and strive to teach.
    I have a Provider who looks out not only for the best interests of my
    child but my family's best interests.
    I have a Provider who asks about my oldest on a regular basis and is
    delighted to see her when she comes with me to pick up her brothers.
    She has taught my daughter the value of working what is and is not a 
    nutritious meal (the older children always help prepare the lunches 
    and snacks and make juice ECT.)  
    She is complemented more when she is in care than when she is with me
    because I expect to much from her and My Provider reminds me that she
    is very mature and responsible for her age.
     
    She has taught me alternate methods of teaching and behavior
    modification skills and been the single steady thing in my daughters
    life when I have gone through two divorces in the last 10 years.
    My daughter has learned about birth and babies and death. This is more
    that a school or daycare could possibly offer. This is real life family
    living and learning how to get along and how to help those you love.
    
    I think that this is the next best thing to being home myself. It's 
    better than I would have expected to find when I went looking for daycare 
    over 10 years ago.
    I stumbled onto a GEM!!!

    The business side of Day Care is in a Contract that both of us read
    through together and make adjustments too. So no one is surprised
    about what happens if this comes up.Her commitment to supporting
    our family is in the contract in general terms but you cant describe
    all aspects of genuine love.

    janet 
    

    As a new parent, I'm facing this issue for the first time.  One of the
    interesting things about the last several replies to this note is that
    while there's a "willingess" to pay for vacation time for the daycare
    provider (family day care, in my case), there's not much discussion
    about the issue of paying for a substitute provider while the primary
    is out on vacation.  Is this common for people?
    
    The reason I ask is that when we initially set up our "agreement" with
    our daycare provider, we agreed to pay her vacation time, and she
    agreed to arrange for backup through her own network of providers.  no
    money was discussed for this, and we (erroneously) assumed that the
    network shared this responsibility amongst themselves.  This group of
    people gets together to discuss ALL aspects of being a provider in our
    area, including policies, contracts, pricing, etc.  Now, it feels a bit
    like dealing with a union...
    
    We like our provider, and will no doubt end up paying for the backup
    sitter, but it doesn't feel right.  The "terms" of our agreement seem
    to have migrated to our paying 52 weeks/year, no matter what happens
    (our vacation, her vacation, her sickness, our sickness, holidays,
    etc.).  Seems like they're not a "cottage industry" anymore....
    
    ajw

    >  Seems like they're not a "cottage industry" anymore....
    
    That hits the nail right on the head ... people still want to treat
    day care as if it is a cottage industry ... but let's be honest ...
    I don't exactly call working all year, year after year, a cottage
    industry, where people rely on you and you rely on the income so
    generated.
    
    There are many day-care providers out there who still work on a
    cottage industry basis ... but they are becoming rarer if they
    are into full-time day care ... and let's be honest, they have to
    become more business like if they are using it to generate income
    as opposed to "pocket money".  Add to that things like liability
    insurance, zoning by-laws, licensing and so on and you have to
    treat it as a fullscale business.
    
    For the occasional provider, things are different ... they don't need
    so much formality.
    
    As to paying, as has been mentioned many times now, if you only paid
    for 50 weeks while instead of 52 to cater for vacations, then you would 
    undobtedly pay more.
    
    For the provider's illness, then it really is questionable if you
    should pay ... it really is service not provided and the provider
    should have budgeted that in.   Many companies do not pay workers
    when out sick say more than 1 week a year ... maybe some similar
    clause could be worked out.
    
    Stuart

    re. 41  "It doesn't feel right to me".  This was regarding paying for
    the backup as well as the providers vacation.  I agree with you
    absolutely.  One OR the other.  Either I would pay for the providers
    vacation, OR the backup NOT both.  This smacks of double dipping to me.
    Whether the daycare business is a 'cottage industry' or not is a moot
    point.  What counts is whats fair to both provider and customer.  Why
    is it that so many people on this net are forgetting the customer and
    supporting the providers to the point where it makes me wonder where
    the balance is.  The customers are working people just as the provider
    is.  We are not large corporations able to supply corporate type
    benefits to the providers.  I expect the providers to produce decent
    service for a fair price WITH quality child care.  If that is too much
    to ask maybe the provider(s) is/are in the wrong business.   Jeff
      

    Jeff,
    
    What's the big deal?   I think that many, many people have said that
    it is up to the individual to decide what is a good value to THEM
    in terms of daycare.   If you don't want to pay both the providers
    vacation and backup, then don't.   I had suggested that my work-around
    for this would be to have myself or my husband or both of us try
    to line up our vacation with our providers.   Nobody like that 
    idea (it seemed) but it works for *ME*, and it seems fair to *ME*.
    
    I do believe that daycare provider's deserve vacation...whether
    it be paid or unpaid (the cost per year is probably what should
    be looked at).   I can't imagine not having a vacation personally...
    in my opinion, it is essential to have a break to stay fresh and
    motivated on the job, whatever that job may be.
    
    I guess my point is that you need to come to an agreement with 
    your provider that feels right for both of you ... and don't sweat
    what "so many people on this net" think.   Make sense?
    
    Carol
    

    Carol, I never implied or said that the daycare provider shouldn't have
    a vacation.  I questioned the fairness of paying the provider for his
    vacation, and, paying for the backup too.  THAT is double dipping IMO.
    I also agree that it is between the provider and customer as to how
    they work it out.  I did want to make it clear that those that think
    the customer should pay for both the backup and providers vacation that
    I think they have tipped the fairness scale too far the other way.
    "Don't sweat what the others think".  This whole note series is an on-
    going debate with people presenting their points of view.  So while I
    am not sweating it... I do want to offer my opinion.   Jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    I can't find anyone who said that they would pay two people.
    Can you help me out?
    
    Thanks,
    Carol

    Hmmmm, I thought someone said it.  Maybe it was implied and I read it
    as someone who had done it.  I think what bothered me was that people
    seemed to be considering paying for both.   Jeff

    I think I'm the one who said it, in the similar discussion in
    Parenting v2.  I've been staying out of this discussion because I
    really don't want to start a fight.  Please understand that what
    follows is only my own opinion of our own situation and isn't
    intended to be a judgement on anyone who doesn't agree with me.  
    
    We're going to pay David's daycare provider for two weeks of
    vacation -- already paid for one of them, which happened to
    coincide with one of ours.  We're planning to take vacation time
    to stay home with the baby while she takes her other vacation, but
    if that won't work out, then we'll pay for alternate care.  
    
    We don't consider it double-dipping.  We consider it fair
    employment practices.  We're the employer in this case, and we
    don't care to exploit the people who provide what is essentially
    household help, even though the location is our house, not hers. 
    
    Historically, one of the main characteristics of cottage industry
    is that people do a tremendous amount of work for very little pay
    and no benefits -- benefits that the buyer would have to provide
    if the workers did the same work in the buyer's factory.  Bluntly,
    it was often a way around paying a fair wage, and I don't care to
    lump myself with that kind of exploitive employer.
    
    David's daycare provider is pregnant.  I'm even thinking about at
    least a couple of weeks of paid maternity leave.  Radical, huh?  
    
    --bonnie

    I commend your responsible attitude toward your daycare provider
    Bonnie.  I hope that you are watching out toward what is fair to
    your family too.   

    (I wrote this once already but it didn't sound right, so I'll try
    again..)
    
    I guess that makes two bleeding heart liberals, Bonnie.   Your
    reply expressed my opinion much better than I am able to myself :-)
    
    I suspect that some of the difference of opinion arises from the
    fact that some families simply can not afford the extra expenses.
    
    Carol

    Jeff, one of the points that you seem to be missing is the simple
    idea that if a day care provider did't actually charge you for the
    agreed on holiday time, that the weekly rate would have to be higher
    to still be able to afford that holiday.
    
    Bonnie, I wouldn't class myself as a day-care provider's employer ...
    but rather as a customer ... by calling yourself an employer opens
    up a legal can of worms, like tax witholding, insurance, and numerous
    other things.  The care provider is in business for her/himself and
    therefore should provide in their terms and conditions of business
    such details as rates, vacation agreements, and so on.  This has to
    be the fairest and most business like way of doing it.  
    
    Away from the legal aspects, calling a provider your employee suggests 
    some subserviance and that you are the major dictator of terms.  This
    is surely backwards with reality!
    
    Stuart

    The Day-Care provider and our family have a very good relationship.  I
    think there is a great deal of understanding between as far has
    finances in concerned.
    
    I know that the money we pay her is her only means of an income and she
    realizes that it is most difficult for us to come up with extra money
    for a second provider.
    
    In our situation, if she is going to take a vacation we are given ample
    time to find a back-up provider.  We therefore, are not asked to pay
    for her time.  However, if we are going to take a vacation, she has
    been asked that we pay for that time.
    
    I understand what she is saying, she has planned in her budget one week
    of unpaid vacation.  But is unable to meet her financial obligations
    with any more.
    
    It has also been discussed if there is an illness (associated with the
    Daycare provider or family) and the children are unable to go to the
    house for Care, the parents are not responsible for payment.  If our
    children are ill, the Daycare must be paid.
    
    These terms and conditions were discussed prior to enrolling our
    daughter in this Daycare.  We also signed a contract stating that we
    were in agreement with these terms.
    
    We knew what we were signing for and agreed to it.  To this day we are
    very glad that we did for our daughter receives love, care and a
    feeling of family from the provider. 
    
    Cheryl

re: .51

Yes, the key is how much you pay over the course of the year, not how many 
payments you make.  I tried to say that and Bruce tried to say that; thanks 
for doing it again.

If you object to it purely on principle, as Jeff seems to be doing, and as 
another noter (who had previously been self-employed) did earlier, that's 
fine, but please don't assume that just because a daycare provider charges for 
vacation that you will pay more for daycare over the course of the year.  

I don't understand the "double dipping" comment.  It certainly would be double 
dipping if you had to pay twice for the same week _to the same person_.  
If you go on vacation and your boss replaces you with a temporary person (for 
which they have to pay), do you think _you_ are "double dipping"?

Clay

    re: Carol and Jeff

    Yes, I'm very much aware that not everyone can afford to be so
    generous, which is why I was trying to emphasize that what I was
    saying applied only to myself and our present situation, not to
    what anyone else works out with their own provider.  Trying to
    drive a hard bargain in our present situation would seem selfish
    and stingy to me. 
    
    And frankly that's why I'm hesitating about the maternity leave. 
    In principle I want to; in practice I'm not sure I can afford it
    now that I'm only working half time.
    
    re:  Stuart
    
    Yes, it does imply the potential for lots of things like tax
    withholding and Social Security taxes and workman's compensation. 
    Right now they aren't required for someone who takes care of my
    child in her home, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.  If I
    ever have enough income from my writing to hire a secretary to
    come in and type my drafts for me (and answer my fan mail :) ) I
    would expect to pay things like insurance and Social Security
    taxes.  I don't feel that child care services are really that
    different.
    
    I also don't see that hiring someone to provide household
    services, be it painting my siding, mowing my lawn, or helping
    raise my child, has to imply any subservience, any more than
    Digital's hiring me to write their software manuals means I have
    to be subervient to my manager.  Any good employee-employer
    relationship takes into account the needs of both parties; neither
    party dictates the terms.  
    
    --bonnie

    I realize that a while back I said that I was out of this discussion,
    but I really wanted to say just a few more things.  I feel as though
    in my last replies that I sound to some of you as a real unfair
    meanie or something, but the way it is is...
    
    This week my daycare provider went on vacation.  Now, I have no problem
    with that.  She really *needed* this vacation.  I know, because I need
    one too but I'm knee-deep in work right now and won't be able to take
    any time off til either late August or early September.  Anyway,
    Allyson is with an alternate provider and I'm paying her what I
    normally pay my regular sitter.  I realize that over the course of
    a year, a paid vacation for my regular sitter wouldn't add up to very
    much, but I can't seem to live "over the course of a year".  I live
    from paycheck to paycheck and if I was paying both sitters this week,
    I'd have to either not pay my Visa bill or forego the groceries.
    I don't see myself as an "employer" to my sitter the way DEC sees
    me as an employee.  The difference is that I provide a service for
    DEC that ultimately makes a profit for the company.  In other words,
    they're buying a service from me that they can make money from.  The
    service I buy from my sitter simply ends there.  I can't make money
    from her - only pay her.  If I go to the store to buy pork chops and
    they're all out, I don't pay for them anyway.  This is the way I see
    the daycare situation.  I will, however, pay my sitter as soon as I
    can get out of here for a vacation!
    
    - Kathryn
    

    re: .55
    
    I don't think you, or anybody else, sounds like an unfair meanie.
    We all have to make our choices and do what we think is right, and
    just because I wouldn't do the same thing you do doesn't mean I
    think there's soemthing wrong with you!  And if it's a choice
    between paying the sitter and buying groceries, I would buy the
    groceries, no question.  
    
    --bonnie

    re: .55
    
    I sympathize with and understand your position on simply not being
    able to pay two people.   In your case, there is no choice and 
    you're doing what's best for your family.   
    
    However...(there's always that "however")
    
    I'm not following the argument about doing a job that the company
    can make money from.   Do you think that DEC shouldn't offer paid 
    vacation to people who work in non-revenue-generating positions 
    (i.e. site services, libraries, etc.)?   I don't understand the 
    idea of placing more value on one job than another but suspect that 
    if I were to run a company, it would fail miserably!      
    
    carol

    Carol,
    
    I may have not communicated properly what I really meant to say...
    I don't think anybody's job is "less important" because it may
    be non-revenue generating.  What I mean is that DEC as an employer
    "makes money" from their employees as a whole.  If I'm considered
    my sitter's employer, then where's my profit?  See what I mean?
    I'm just paying money out that I have to get elsewhere.  That's
    really the only way I can think of to put it.  Perhaps someone
    else out there knows a better way to say it.
    
    At any rate, what everyone here seems to be in agreement about is that
    the "right" way to handle the daycare vacation issue is to discuss
    everything upfront with the provider and reach an outcome that is
    fair to all.  I'm comfortable with the relationship I have with my
    sitter and it sounds like everyone else here has the same situation
    too - although they may differ slightly.  I think it was Sheryl a few
    replies back who has the exact situation that I have.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    RE: - a few
    
    Concerning the issue of Social Security tax, workman's comp etc.
    If the provider is running a business and reporting the income, then
    SS tax is paid to the tune of 13-14%.  Workman's comp is paid only when
    the provider has employees.  When the provider is alone, the situation
    is considered the same as a sub-contractor.  This means that the
    provider is responsible for all "benefits" and taxes that may arise.
    
    RE: The vacation issue:
    
    My wife has just started a daycare business.  While processing the
    licensing paperwork ( reams and reams of meaningless $#@$...), we
    talked to some local agencies to find out what their policies were. 
    Many of the agencies have more than one provider so the issue of the
    provider taking time off wasn't an issue.  In this situation, your
    vacation would be charged at either full cost or at half cost depending
    upon the center.
    
    A quick survey of in-home providers showed a little more creativity. 
    The vacations for the provider were not charged and the parents
    vacations were charged at 50% or 100%.  I personally feel that the 50%
    level is best and call it the "reservation" cost.
    
    As long as all charges are outlined up front and agreed to, there
    shouldn't be a problem.  Keep in mind that the provider must have a
    resonably steady cash flow.  The reservation charge tends to lessen the
    "cost" to the provider of client vacations without taxing the clients
    too much IMHO.
    
    Dan

    Kathyrn - I don't see why profit is relevant.  Did I not deserve
    vacation or other benefits during the decade I worked at a non-profit
    corporation?  In any case, I suspect you earn more money in your job
    than you pay out in daycare costs - at least most people do.  The
    daycare is then more directly and obviously enabling you to "make a
    profit" from the service than most jobs at DEC do for Uncle Ken.
    
    To others - the "double-dipping" argument is again strangely
    converting arithmetic into rightious morality.  I might pay my Provider
    $5000 (per year) for 50 weeks' service, $200 for 2 weeks vacation, and
    $200 for her to pass along to a colleague for vacation coverage.  Or, I
    might pay her $5000 for service and $200 for her vacation, and myself
    pay $200 to someone else for vacation coverage.  The total service and
    costs to me are identical.  So why why say one is fine and the other is
    immoral double-dipping?
    
    		- Bruce

    re: .59 
    
    Social Security is only paid when a provider (or any business) has
    employees.  Then 7.51% is paid for out of the employees wages and
    the employer must match that for a total of 15.02%.  A person who
    is in business for himself is responsible for his/her own pension, 
    if he choses to have one.
    
    -ali

    .62 is just plain wrong.  Earned income of the self-employed is subject
    to Social Security taxes (and benefits) up to the same maximum as for
    those with salaries.  Yet since they are essentially both "employee"
    and "employer" they get to pay at about twice the rate of the wage
    earner, roughly 14%.  Better yet, they are paying income tax on this
    full 14% which may boost the S.S. bite to about 18% (if in 28% bracket
    with no state income tax).  Social Security taxes for the self-employed
    must be reported and paid along with income tax filings.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    RE: .62 and .63
    
    .63 is correct.  Being self employed means you pay about 14% for SS.
    The boundary is $400 of NET profit (this is as of 1989 tax year).  I
    made $450 net from a side construction business during 1989 and ended
    up paying approx $65 in SS tax... My real net was <$400.
    
    If still in doubt, consult a tax accountant.
    
    Dan

    re: .64
    
    Actually, this was explained to me by my accountant.  Looks like
    I better find a new one!  Or one specializing in taxes...
        
    thanks - didn't intend to spread false info
    
    -ali

    
    Something to ponder-40 hours a week for you at Digital equals 47-50
    hours a week for your sitter.  See. they don't get a lunch break and
    are there while yu are going to and from your place of employment. 
    Some of the replies in here have really surprised me on how money
    oriented people are without regard to quality of care.
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    RE: My last-Not that they don't want quality care, but it was implied
    (to me anyway) that it was not the primary concern.  It also has to be
    remembered that the home daycare providers are getting paid peanuts to
    provide one of the most valuable services rendered.  
    
    RE: Social Security-If you do not pay a certain amount of social
    security tax, then you do not recieve the benefits when you become of
    age.  
    
    Peace,
    
    MIke

    Mike, the rusty hinge gets the oil.  That is: If I had a big problem
    with the quality of the care my son would be pulled out FAST. I do
    have a bit of a problem with the hours/benefits she works/gets vs.
    the money I spend and I have told her so.  A compromise resulted, but
    its still a bit of a beef with me.  She increased her prices in Sept.
    by 15 per week and cut her hours from a 35 hour week to a 32 hour
    week with all the bennies. Such as paid vacations/holidays.  But she
    IS flexable with changing hours around as long as they don't exceed
    the above limits.  This in a private home Daycare situation rather than
    commercial place.  She smokes, which is a minus, but she is good with
    kids and is reliable.  I don't believe one can ever find a perfect
    daycare setting.... there are always compromises to be made. At home
    is as perfect as you can get.  But you did reg flag my biggest beef
    which is service rendered vs. pay.  Thats why you hear me complain
    about the money. So why not put him in another daycare setting? Two
    reasons, my wife is happy with this place and chances are we would
    wind up swapping one set of compromises for another (perhaps worse)
    set.
    
    Jeff

>    	- If so, how do you deal with the situation if their vacation week
>    	doesn't coincide with your vacation plans? Who minds the kid(s)?
    
    I'm interested in how people handle the above question from the
    basenote.  What type of backup daycare arrangements do people have? 
    What do you do when your family daycare provider is sick?

    Hi Deb,
    
    My daycare provider's sister-in-law also does daycare, right next door. 
    So they provide vacation and sickday backup to each other.
    
    When I was shopping for daycare, I asked about this.  Many of them had
    a regular relationship with a backup.  Have you asked your provider?
    
    With the awful economy, many providers have openings.  If your usual
    provider can't suggest someone, perhaps you could inquire through
    friends, neighbors, or this notes file, for a local backup person.
    
    Laura