Conference moira::parenting_v3

    We have a two year old and a 4.5 year old.  We bacame wimps last
    year and bought a pop up tent trailer.  It makes things easier,
    especially since we also take our large dog along too usually.
    We have found that with little ones it has worked out best to
    go somewhere where there are places to visit.  We went to Mystic
    last summer and visited the aquarium.  Either that or a campground
    with a really good playground.  We went to a place on the Cape
    for Labor Day weekend with a good playground and a place for the
    kids to ride their bikes.  They had a great time.  They tend
    to get bored hanging around the campsite for too long and it's
    impossible to bring enough toys to occupy them for long.
    
    The only real problem we had last year was that my daughter was
    only a year old and it was all new to her.  So she decided to 
    stay up till midnight the first two nights, playing peekaboo
    through the curtains.  She got over it by the last camping trip
    though...
    
    The kids love it and we enjoyed it too, after the first day of 
    setting up and getting into the swing of things.
    
    Robin
    

    I wouldn't hesitate to take a tot camping as early as on any other kind
    of trip.  I think we did a weekend when Aaron was about 4 months.  We
    started going for up to a week when he was one year, and have gone off
    and on since.  I suppose there may be kids who don't like camping, but
    I don't think I've met one.  If you have any trouble, it will probably
    be from the city spouse, not the young'uns.  Have fun!
    
    		- Bruce
    
    Addendum after reading 81.1.  Each to his/her own tastes, but if I
    wanted playground time and kid-bike-rides I'd probably stay home.  I
    would get AWAY from the familiar, so that they (and you) will have some
    new experiences.  If you're out and about in exciting (novel) places
    during the day, they'll be tired enough to fall asleep an hour early. 
    My advice: look for a campsite that is no more than 200 yards from the
    nearest toilets, and no closer than 200 yards to the nearest
    electricity.  If you can arrange to be 400 yards from the nearest other
    campsite, great, but you'd better keep the place secret.  Be no more
    than 1/2 hour away from someplace to do things inside in case of
    prolonged rain.  

    Bruce, do you have any particular places to recommend?  
    
    --bonnie

    I'm not sure I'm much good on places, for a funny reason.  When I was
    little, my brother and I went to a school that didn't start until late
    September.  Our family pattern became starting camping trips around -
    or after - Labor Day, so that we missed all those other yucky People. 
    The habit persisted, and my adult camping was mostly May or September
    (or in Canada!).  I don't think I've _been_ camping since Aaron started
    elementary school.  And places are quite different on, say, 15 May
    versus 15 July.  Sorry.  But I guess I can now profit from anyone
    else's answers.
    
    			- Bruce

    G'day,
    
    
     As a parent who took his boys camping from a reasonably early age, I
    have a couple of comments born of experience...
    
    Make sure that they are going to stay either totally dry - ie full
    waterproofs OR make sure that they get only one set of clothes wet -
    have a nice dry towel to hand and make them change when coming in (into
    dry clothes) and out (into wet clothes). Yes wet clothes will not harm
    them, providing it is not cold or windy. Most young kids love to run
    around in the rain, because Mum won't let them do that at home...
    
    
    Make sure that at night they stay WARM... Even on a warm summer's
    evening, there can be a fair temperature drop by 4 or 5 am. So good
    sleeping bags or even blankets and a duna (duvet)(eiderdown) do pretty
    well for little ones.
    
    If the tent has a couple of rooms, place a low light between the
    youngster and the tent wall where the grownups are going to sit and
    have their nightcap.... This way the grownups don't cast shadows on the
    tent wall that scare little ones, and they have a comfort light....
    
    
    Dont use GAS lamps in the tent as light unless tied up high - and put
    them oUTside at night - they are noisy and get hot... And they can leak
    gas when turned off which might not affect a grownup, but may a little
    one.
    
    Do have a warm drink for the kids before they go to bed - milk or cocoa
    or chocolate or a favourite soup - helps them get that nice cosy
    feeling when going to bed......
    
    
    Take the favourite cuddly soft toys for bedtime too...
    
    
    Put more under than over... the ground can feel hard if you are not
    used to it.
    
    Do have some routine programmed for the day. Kids like their food at
    the normal time...
    
    Take time out to look at the trees and birds - get a book on them and
    see how many you can spot and flowers too - maybe take time to build
    daisy chains....
    
    Remember lilos (inflatable air beds) roll and let the cold be drawn
    through them. And draughts get under camp beds...
    
    
    kids (and grownups) will probably eat more at camp. Breakfast should be
    bigger than normal and include something warm, even on a summers day.
    After a night under canva, young bodies need a pick-me up...
    
    
     Hope these ideas help some. 
    
    
    Derek
    

    I have friends who have camped at JellyStone Park in/near Sturbridge.
    It's a camp area aimed at families and kids.  Don't know much more
    about it, but it might be worth checking into.  
    
    I THINK the name is Jelly Stone - else, it's something to do with
    Yogi Bear
    

    re: .6
    
    It would almost have to be called JellyStone. . . though having
    grown up where "let's go take a drive through the park" meant a
    Sunday excursion through the geysers and wildlife of the real
    Yellowstone Park, I'm not sure I could stomach a Yogi-Bear theme
    campground . . .
    
    re: .5
    
    Thanks, Derek, that's great!  You include a bunch of things I
    wouldn't have thought of, like the shadows . . . 
    
    --bonnie

	This note might be long. We have done a lot of camping with our kids,
	now 6 and 9. Larry and I did a lot of backpacking before the kids so
	buying a 10X10 8 foot high roadside tent and camping at campgrounds
	has been a new experience. Campgrounds range from rustic to
	overblown (we avoid the overblown ones but that's our preference).

	It's harder with really young kids, because of the sleeping
	arrangements.  Be prepared to go to sleep when they do, and
	use a flashlight (get the kind with the fluorescent tube) to
	read inside or go outside after they have fallen asleep.

	Have a tarp by the tent door and train your kids to take off shoes
	away from the door and come in with clean feet, and to never leave the
	screen open!

	Our kids like brookside sites.
	Be prepared for noisy neighbors in spite of the quiet rules.
	Be near a flush toilet.
	Keep clothes in a closed car to keep them from getting damp.
	With a kid backpack for the 9 month old, the adults and the 6 year
	old can manage some easy hikes.

	We usually camp in the Whites.  Let me know if you want more
	info about the Whites.

	By the way, I would highly recommend:
	AMC (Appalachia Mt. Club) Cold River Camp in Chatham, N.H. (on the
	Maine border) for a non-camping but wonderful experience.  There
	are rustic cabins (no electricity, running water), with
	modern shower/toilet buildings, a large all-facility lodge where
	you eat your huge meals and bag a lunch, and a wonderful family
	atmosphere.  Some people have been going for years.  You must
	sign up for a week (usually on and by April 1).  We went there
	when our first was 1 1/2 and then 2 1/2. These couple of sentences
	can't really do the experience justice.

	Eileen

    We started camping two years ago when my youngest was 8 weeks
    old.  The boys are now 2 and 5.  We have a tent and we have never
    gone with less then four other families, which usually means there
    are about ten kids in total amoungst all of us.   
    
    The first summer of camping was GREAT.  The baby slept all the time
    and we didn't have to entertain the older one because with that
    amount of children around they entertained each other.  The second
    year was awful because the baby was now just learning to walk and
    got into everything that he wasn't suppose to.  Nothing is child-
    proof in the wilderness!!  It was very hard to enjoy myself.  Now
    this year we have already done one camping trip and once again it
    was a fun and we have two more trips planned over the next four
    weeks.
    
    I was an inexperienced camper when we first started, but have since
    come up with my own list of "musts" when we plan a trip:
    
    1) Always book at a camping area that has a beach on a river or
       lake.  (My boys are half-fish)
    
    2) Always bring 3 times the normal amount of clothes for the boys.
       (Ex: If you are going for 2 days bring 6 days worth of clothes)
    
    3) Try to bring dark colored clothing. (Navy, black, brown)  The
       kids will get dirty!!
    
    4) Always bring blanket sleepers for P.J.'s even if it is 95 degrees
       and the middle of July.
    
    5) Bring two pairs of sneakers and one pair of boots for each child.
       The dew on the grass in the morning will immediately soak the
       first pair of sneakers for the day.
    
    6) We always get at least one campsite amoungst the families that
       has water and electricity.
    
    7) Always go to a camping area that has HOT water showers and
       flush toilets.  The showers are for my benefit, but the flush
       toilets are for the children.  We have found that at the potty
       training stage and a year or two older that the kids have a fear
       of the "out house" type of toilets.  
    
    8) Musts for toys:  FLASHLIGHTS for each child (the best camping
       toy ever invented!)  Coloring books and crayons.  A couple of
       board games (Candyland/Checkers).  Trucks, pails, shovels for
       the beach. (Don't forget your beach towels!)
    
    9) Always pack the Fisher Price tape player and tapes.  When I put
       the kids down for the night, I always put on a long playing soft
       sounding cassette.  I, also, always leave either a flashlight
       turned on in the tent or we have our propane camping lantern
       lit OUTSIDE the tent on a nearby picnic table so that it casts
       light into the tent.
    
    10 Pack marshmellows.  Supervised toasting of marshmellows can provide
       a hour of entertainment.  Let the kids toast marshmellows for
       both themselves and the adults.  They love it.
    
    11 Sleeping problems were never an issue, in fact, they sleep better
       then at home.  I even give them naps during the afternoon.  With
       all the children around for playmates, the kids are exhausted
       by bedtime and more then happy to go to sleep.
    
    12 My last piece of advice:  I found that when I used an air mattress
       under the boys sleeping bags, that they inevitably rolled off them
       during the night and would become scared and disoriented until I
       turned the flashlight on and soothed them.  What works better is
       to put an unfilled air mattress down (for dampness protection), then
       a couple of blankets (for softness and warmth), followed by their
       sleeping bag.
    
    Hope this helps.  Enjoy!!
    
       
    

         Here are some more helpful hints.  Take along a playpen to put the
    baby in during the day when you are cooking or something and can't keep
    a good eye on him.  Then, at night, it is a bed and you don't have to
    worry about the baby crawling all over the place.  Also, bring the baby
    swing!  I did when we went camping with a then 7 week old baby and it
    kept him happy when he started to get fussy.  If your baby is still on
    formula and you use the powder type, buy the ready mix in cans to avoid
    having to boil water each day.  For each day you will be there, bring
    two sets of clothing.  Kids get dirty real fast and if you want to
    avoid doing laundry, the extra clothing does help.  
    
    Diane
    

    Bonnie,
    
    I don't know where you're located but I think that node TLE is
    at Spitbrook road(?).  I take my boys, 1 1/2 and 3 camping a 
    few times a year.  I bought a used pop-up a couple of years ago
    but a tent would have worked out fine.  
    
    A great place in Southeastern NH is Pine Acres.  They have lots of 
    play areas, ongoing activities, a water slide, recreation hall etc.
    all the stuff needed to take kids camping.
    
    If you want to give them a call their number is 603/895-2519.
    (All they had left yesterday was 10 tent sites [no water or
    electric] for this weekend).
    
    I'm trying something new this weekend, a friend and I are each 
    bringing our 2 boys (2 men and 4 young boys!) to P.A.  I'm psyched!
    
    Have a blast!
    Tom
                                              

    Bonnie,
    
    I used to love sleeping in the yard or on the screened-in porch.
    Maybe a back yard camp out will satisfy Steven and then you won't
    have to worry about it!
    
    There is a camping area a mile or so down the road from my house
    in East Derry, NH called Hidden Valley Camping.  I don't know
    what kind of facilities they have but I've seen a few RV's headed
    in that direction.  I think it may have some water frontage and we
    usually hear the kabooms of fireworks which we assume come from there.
    Hidden Valley is about 45 minutes from Nashua, about 5 miles from a
    shopping center (Shaw's, Ames, etc.) and very near my house if you
    get the urge to visit  %^).
    
    Ruth

    Bonnie,
    
    Where would you like to go?  We just returned from Kezar Lake in
    Lovell, Maine.  There was a playground, camp store, canoes, paddle
    boats, motor boats and pontoon boats for rent.  The beach is sandy. 
    The owners are great.
    
    We have also camped at Yogi Bear's Jellystone Park in Sturbridge, MA
    and Ashland, NH.  They both are great for children.  It may sound a bit
    corny but they do cater their activities to the children.  My daughter
    is 18 months old and as soon as we drive into the camp road she says
    "YOGI".  I recommend the NH campground over the MA but I like them
    both.
    
    You may also want to look into the RV notes file.  They have many
    campgrounds listed.
    
    Good luck and have fun.  It brings the family closer together.
    Cheryl

    Thanks for all the ideas!  This is great.  Yes, I'm in Nashua. 
    Sorry, I thought I said where we were thinking of going, but I
    guess I forgot.  Southern NH or northern Mass, perhaps southern
    Maine or Vermont if it was a really nice place.  
    
    --bonnie

    G'day,
    
     I have to ask....
    
     Do you own a removals truck? 
    
    The main idea of camping is to get away from it all, NOT to create
    work, effort, laundry, panic and fear.... Camping is FUN and a real
    change. Kids are far more adaptable than we give them credit for. So
    the kid runs around in some dirty clothes... so what? Its their holiday
    too....  If its warm, then the less clothes the better, within sanity
    reason (ie if there's a lot of sun, then cover up) So maybe clean
    clothes to go into town in, then back and into camp gear - the oldest
    and (maybe) scruffiest clothes.... 
    
    
    And regarding gum boots - they should be banned in camp! Sure a dry
    spare of sneakers to replace the damp ones.. But in all the excitement
    of the day, the gumboots won't get changed - results - hot sticky feet,
    blisters = discomfort. No, sorry - one pair of sneakers to start the
    day and if they dry out on the feet, no matter, elsewise a change after
    breakfast.
    
    The exception is night time when it can and does get chill. There is
    nothing worse than being cold in bed in camp. Hence most of my early
    comments were about this. Kids will go to sleep in the daytime if they
    need it - even teenagers and even if its not so comfortable: but at
    night THAT is another story.
    
    So by all means take adequate clothes, etc. But do take two bags... one
    with the clean clothes, and one for the dirty ones. Next time you go,
    take only those that came back in the dirty bag....(duly washed, of
    course ;-)) 
    
    Having been involved in Scouts since 1958, much of this is based on
    experience that has been hard won......
    
    Derek
    
    
    
    

    Note 3 in the RV notefile is a place that campers talk about where
    they've visited.  GENRAL::RV is the camping notefile.  As the 
    name implies, its slanted toward RV owners.
    Camping areas vary as night and day from the simple state park area
    with only pit tolits at a cost of $10/night, to full resort camping
    where you are pampered at a cost of $40/person/night.
    people in the notefile have reported good/bad things about each
    campground.
    
     When the kids are older [mine started at 6] you can hike up into the
    White mountains for FREE.  thats a different topic -backpacking.
    ed
    

We went on a 3 week camping trip last year - from Colorado to Michigan,
and everywhere in between.  Evan was 17 months old.

One of the best things we did was to buy a 2 room tent.  This gave us
privacy and helped Evan go to sleep better.  If he could see us, he 
would have stayed up forever.  As it was, he knew we were there (we left
it unzipped, so he could see my legs but not my face) but he couldn't
get a game started with us.  I would just quietly read, and later when
I wasn't so paranoid, Shellie and I would slip out after he fell asleep
and sit outside together.

We also had Evan in his F-P portacrib.  It worked really well as a bed
for him, allowing him to sleep in what he considered safety, and allowed
me to know he really was safe, that he wouldn't slip out in the middle
of the night past us.  Once he learned how to unzip the tent, it got a
little scary.  It was really hard one morning at a populated campsite
when Evan got out while I was still mostly undressed, and then he walked
onto a camp road.  Scared the daylights out of me, even though the road
was not much travelled.  Here I was worried about my modesty, when my
son could have been in danger.  I became much more careful in the future,
and will not let modesty stop me next time if he gets past me anyway.  :-}

All in all, we each enjoyed camping together.

         Carol

    Aaron just got slurped into a sleeping bag.  The first time, at 12
    months, it wasn't clear if he would roll around too much, so he went in
    a 3 inch slice off a good sized cardboard box.  He didn't roll, so
    after that he and the bag just went on the floor, ground, whatever.  He
    still uses the same bag today, at 8 years.
    
    		- Bruce

What great advice in here!  I'm ready to go!

I'd add/second:

	Lots of dry clothes - sweatclothes are good because they feel so cozy
	and warm when you've been wet and they can double as pjs if the
	weather turns cold.

	Lots of sneakers for kids - learned the hard way.

	With little kids going in and out of the tent all day, don't roll out
	sleeping bags until the last minute.  Then the sand/dirt/mud ends up
	on the floor, not on your bedding and there's one less restriction on
	the kids.  

	Two small kids can share a rollup mat - one on each end.  

	Get specific when chosing a site if you can.  Ask to see the map and
	tell them you have little kids.  One place gave us a four-site clearing
	for our two families (3 kids), away from everything else but not too
	far from bathrooms.  It was so perfect that we've booked the same for
	this summer!

	Playschool (I think) makes a kids flashlight that turns itself off 
	after a while - a great battery saver and you don't have to nag the
	kids.  (and use rechargables)

	MOST IMPORTANT: Keep the tent zipped at night! Last summer, we had
	all but the botton zipper closed while the grownups sat by the fire 
	and the kids slept.  A SKUNK WENT STRAIGHT IN AND WALKED AROUND OUR
	KIDS!  I will never forget it!  We lured it out and all was well, but
	we'll never make that mistake again. [ don't tell the kids, there is
	a 15-year gag order on this story, with 14 years remaining ]


Bonnie, We really like Greenfield State Park.  We went there for our trial run
with kids last summer.  There is a separate beach just for campers and the
whole campground was simple, clean, and well run. 

Our other trip was to Silver Lake Family Campground in Barnard, Vt.  This was
my first experience with camping in a non-State/National campground and it was
great (except for the skunk).

Have a blast!

Jane

    Bonnie,
    
    We used to camp three or four times a year minimum at Greenfield State 
    Park and loved it, however, we haven't been in two years.
    
    If you do go I'd appreciate an update.  
    
    Tricia
    

There are many good suggestions and tips in this note.  One thing that I
discovered when my daughter got to be about 5 or 6 was that the moment we
pulled in to our campsite, she wanted to go exploring in the surrounding
woods while I set up camp.  I have heard so many tragic stories of children
getting lost while camping, and it's *so* easy for a city dweller of *any*
age to quickly lose their bearings in the woods.  The compromise I made
with Emily was to first have her help me carry some things out of the car, 
then I looked around the campsite and established boundaries using unusually
shaped trees or bushes; I let her explore alone within those boundaries
until I had the tent set up to the point that I needed her help.  Actually,
we made a game out of my calling her every 10 minutes or so, just so she
could prove that she was "in range".  She would run in to camp, tell me
about her findings, then take off again.  Eventually I would call her to
help finish the tent, and then we went exploring together.  She really 
enjoyed showing me the places she had found on her solo investigation.

RE: .0, let us know how the trial trip turned out.  If things go well
enough that you want to venture further away, a place we have enjoyed is
Wildwood campground, west of N. Woodstock.  We especially enjoyed spending
an afternoon at Lost River, which is nearby.

Sarah

    This note is an extract from the RV notes file, tailored for this
    conference.
    
    We spent last weekend in the White Mountains.  I highly recommend a 
    weekend in Jefferson at the Lantern Motel and Campground.  It is across 
    the street from Santa's Village, a miniature golf place, and two 
    restaurants.  The campground itself has the largest playground I've seen 
    in a campground, as well as a small game room, store and pool.  
    Everything was really clean.  On the way home we did a quick hike at
    the Basin and then visited Lost River.   BTW, if you go to Santa's
    Village after 3:00 in the afternoon, the next day is free.  To us that
    meant driving up on Friday afternoon and having Friday free.
    Of course this trip was not really "camping" but it is a fun trip to do
    with children in a tent or RV.  We prefer the RV with our newborn.  No
    hunting for a clean place to change diapers, and no bathroom stops for
    the older kids.
    
    

	re dark clothes

	Depending on where you're camping, you might consider bright
	colored clothing for the younger ones.  It makes it much easier
	to loacte them in the woods (the darker colors tend to blend in
	with the trees, etc.)

	Too, when I first started taking the kids camping, I'd issue them
	each a whistle (plastic's much better than metal for winter -
	no stuck lips) and taught them the "three blasts =s the help signal"
	rule.  Give itto them a day before so they can blow it to their heart's
	content at home, not in the woods.  The whistle helps give them a 
	sense of responsibility.  They've each got their own in a pocket
	of their backpacks and is one of the first things they go for
	once we get out of the car.

	If you're going backpacking (or just a day hike), the small ones
	should be given an appropriate sized backpack so they get to carry
	something, too.  For one thing, it will get them used to carrying
	stuff on their back and another they do want to participate in
	most everything you do.  Be careful not to overload your kid/s.
	A stuffed toy or light sweater may be all they can handle and
	you might get to carry that most of the way.  Do get them used
	to carrying something or you'll regret it later on when they
	skip along the trail while you are so overburdened, you're
	ready to just go to WallyWorld and skip the whole camping
	experience.

	I started both my kids out pretty young (4 for Jenny & about 2
	for Mike).  They're 12 & 8 res., have their own external frame
	packs and carry most of hat they'll need for a weekend summer
	backpacking trip.

	AA

    
    	I'm hopping on getting some ideas on places to go camping.....
    
    	I've got two kids...both boys, 6 & 7.  We like to fish, swim,
    play pinball or the sort there of, boating, laying in the sun, hike,
    camp fires.....  I plan to camp this Memorial day week but haven't
    deceided on a place yet.  I've been thinking of th cape or northern
    NH.
    	Any ideas, names, phone numbers etc.
    
    	Thanks in advance...
    		Hal
    

    I've enjoyed reading the information in 81.* about camping with kids. 
    This summer my sister and I are planning to take our two 8-year old
    sons, a 10-yr. boy from N. Ireland and my six-year old daughter camping. 
    I'm sure the kids will love it.  We have no equipment!  And my
    experience goes back to when I was a kid and slept in the back yard or
    at the beach in a sleeping bag.  Suggestions on
    where to purchase or rent a tent(s)?  Is a regular sleeping bag
    adequate?  I think I know the answer to that questions, so OK, what do
    we look for in a sleeping bag?  We'd like to go up to Maine to
    Acadia/Cadillac Mtn in July or August.  It'd probably be for 4-7 days.  
    What should we get to put under the sleeping bags?  What other
    equipment should we bring vs. what might campgrounds provide?
    
    Kelly
    

    A lot depends on how much money you want to spend.  Eureka makes good
    quality, inexpensive tents....but "inexpensive" is relative!  If you
    plan on doing lots of camping in the future, Eureka is worth it.  If
    not, try to rent (as you suggested), or get something cheap at Penneys
    or Spags.
    
    Ridge Rest pads are inexpensive foam pads that go under sleeping bags.
    They are not very thick (i.e. nothing like a mattress, just some
    protection from the lumps, bumps and cold).  Some people prefer the
    Camprest pads....these are self-inflating 1" thick pads but they cost
    around $50.00 per pad.  And, some people use air mattresses....you can
    buy ones that are specifically for sleeping on...I have no idea how
    much they cost.....we've never used them because they're too heavy for
    backpacking.
    
    Sounds like a great trip!  Have fun!
    
    Diana
    
    Sleeping bags, again, depend on how much use you'll get out of them and
    how much $$ you have.  If you'll only go camping, at most, once per
    year, buy something cheap and then take a couple of extra blankets,
    just in case.  If you plan on doing lots of camping but only in summer
    months, look for a "summer" bag (good to 40 degrees or so) at a camping
    store (like REI, or Eastern Mountain Sports).
    
    You might want to get either a Coleman lantern (I find them too brigh)
    or a Duracell or Eveready Flourecent "Flashlight"....these provide an
    adequate amount of light inside a large tent (you really shouldn't use
    a lantern inside a tent due to gas buildup).

My sister-in-law skips the sleeping bags altogether and just brings blankets!

Sleeping bags are important if you're going backpacking where you carry all
your own stuff, but for "car camping" (driving to a campground) that you 
may not be doing often, you could do fine with a bunch of blankets and your
own comfy pillows!

This can apply to everything: we bring mess kits because, well because I 
think they're so cool, but you could just bring some plates from home (or
paper plates) and the cooking pans you need.

I have a whole checklist if anyone's interested, but I'm almost embarassed to
show it - it's so long!  I was brought up with the notion of carrying every-
thing up the mountain, so now I feel like I'm just short of patio lights and
the portable TV!  (although some people call that camping, too)

Camping with kids is so much fun.  It's like joining them at their level and
throwing out all the grownup/indoor rules!

Have a blast!

    Yes, I'd love your checklist (.27).  Thanks for the response.

I'll enter the checklist early next week.

    If you are going Maine, and up in the mountains, be prepared
    for COLD temperatures at night.  It can get very cold, even in the
    summer, so a good, warm sleeping bag, and warm socks/sweats/
    etc. are necessary. . . 
    
    Val

    For those campers from outside New England who are coming here to
    visit, a word of warning about the BUGS.
    
    Black fly season is in late spring, early summer.  They are very tiny,
    swarm, and their bites yield nasty welts.  They heal more slowly than
    mosquito bites, are ugly, and are more prone to infection due to
    itching because they heal so slowly.
    
    Their density varies from spot to spot even in one locale.  They breed
    in melting puddles of snow.  This year should be a bad year for the
    flies (good for us humans) due to light snow in most areas.
    
    You need a mighty repellent to fight off the flies and the nasty
    mosquitoes that come with summer.  The most allegedly successful is
    Avon's Skin So Soft.  Don't leave home without it!  For babies, they
    are best put in a screened enclosure.  If you use bug repellent (or sun
    tan lotion) on them, be very careful they don't get it into their
    mouths or eyes.  That means don't apply to their hands.
    
    The most effective ways to prevent black flies from slaughtering your
    kids, is to cover all skin with clothing.  That includes the neck,
    ankles, and wrists.  I would bring cotton neckerchiefs, well-washed for
    softness.  They can be used many different ways.  They are sold in
    camping and some army-navy stores for about $1.   Plan on 2 per person. 
    Bring shirts with collars that can stand up, buttons at the neck, and
    buttoned cuffs that reach the top of the hands.  Also socks, long
    pants, and rubber bands to close to cuffs of the pants.  Cotton
    turtleneck shirts provide warmth on cool evenings and keep bugs off.
    
    Despite clothing, bugs can bite right through.  A light spray of insect
    repellant over clothing helps.  Be sure to spray behind kids ears.
    
    Certainly plan on having a screened enclosure for eating.  You'll be
    grateful.  The bugs are worst at sunset when you're eating dinner.  I
    don't think electric bug zappers help much.  Citronella candle-lights
    are popular.  Campfire smoke works but I'd rather sit inside screening
    myself at day's end.
    
    The most practical way to plan clothing is in light layers that can be
    added on.  Cotton turtleneck shirt, cotton shirt with collar and cuffs,
    bulky cotton socks, sneakers, cotton pull-over sweater, slacks, a nylon
    windbreaker with hood, neckerchiefs for neck and head, or a cap/hat,
    down vest if it's really cold.  I packed this way for a trip to Arizona
    in June and needed all my clothes when it snowed at the Grand Canyon. 
    Also, shorts, t-shirts, sandals, bathing suit, a loose skirt for Mom
    for the hot days, sleeping clothes.  The kids may be happy wearing a
    t-shirt and underpants to bed.  Keep pants and shoes handy for midnight
    trips to the Facility.  Also a flashlight.
    
    I also like to bring items for care of fingernails.  They get pretty
    gross (dirty and ragged) camping, and if I can keep 'em relatively
    nice, I'm much happier.  A little stick and brush for cleaning out the
    dirt makes a HUGE difference in my attitude.  Baby wipes should be very
    handy for quick hand cleans before cooking or eating.
    
    Bring plenty of plastic bags in different sizes for all kinds of uses. 
    Plan on a bag of some sort for carrying toiletries to the Facility.
    
    Have fun.  I've enjoyed camping in much of the States.  Now our
    challenge is adding the baby to the equation.
    
    Laura

    Aw, come on now, .31, it isn't THAT bad!
    ed
    

    Hey .32....it's THAT bad!!
    
    We spent yesterday, now mind you it's still the *early* part of April
    in Beautiful Southern Worcester County...and came away with not just a
    good sunburn on exposed arms, necks and knees, but hubby was stung by a
    hornet while changing the screen in the front storm door, my son killed
    at least two he found napping, I spent the aftenoon swatting at little
    black bugs, and the cats had a heyday doing what we term "bug patrol".
    
    Let's not forget that the pollen seems to have hit an all time high, my
    son's asthma attack late last week will attest to that, and the
    "experts" are predicting a real bad influx of mosquetos that carry the
    Equine Encepholytis (SP?) disease.  (In fact I remember killing a
    mosquito yesterday too!!
    
    Is this summer in New England already...
    My idea of "roughing it"....I'll take my travel trailer anyday!!
    
    Lyn

	Get some decent sunscreen and use it.  If there's to be any standing
	water (lake, creek , even puddles) nearby, take extra changes of
	clothes (and maye a back-up to that) as the kids do love to get
	wet no matter how much they stay out of it. ;-)

	The reply about the screened in area is right on if you've got
	biting bugs about.  They'll eat the little ones alive.  You want
	the first trips to be as enjoyable as possible and being eaten ain't.

	Depending on how independent yours are, they may want to sleep in
	a separate tent from the grown-ups.  Let 'em.  You may get to stay up
	all night but it will be more fun for them (if they're the independent
	types).

	A flashlight for each will give them endless hours of fun once it's
	dark.  If they have to share, you'll be breaking up fights all night.
	If it's a cheapy flashlight that breaks every time you turn it on,
	you'll be fixing flashlights all night - no fun for you or them.
	Especially if they get into the camping bit, forget their normal
	bedtime and let them enjoy the dark and all it brings.  Night is
	a very special time (and part) of camping.  Allow them to enjoy
	it as much as you want to wind down the day.  It's their trip, too.
	Get away from the lights if you can and show them the stars if
	it's clear - take a night hike if you can.  Doesn't have to be
	too far.  Lights over water at night seem to especially delight
	the kiddos.

	Good quality (and relative inexpensive) sleeping bags can be found
	through some catalogs and some outdoor shops but are sometimes hard
	to locate.  North Face has a good one (LittleFoot to 5'2"/20 degF) and 
	Campmor catalog another (Polar Lite to 5'/5 degF).  If you're car
	camping and with limited funds, go for the blanket routine (have a 
	coupla extras in case - put them in their tent so you're not making
	runs to the car once they're down for the night).  Kids seem to sleep
	warmer than do adults but better to be on the safe side. 

	Rainwear is real handy or you'll get to entertain them in the tent
	which can be very exasperating if you don't have the patience/your
	own attitude squared away or the fun stuff to do inside.  Cards,
	fave board games, dice games (small, lightweight, etc.) can help
	burn away the hours.  Plan on them getting soaked if it rains. 
	Remember, water conducts their body heat away 24X faster than if they
	are dry.  Watch for hypothermia.  50 degF wet weather can be deadly,
	'specially with a bit of wind.  A good tent rainfly will prevent
	the weather from getting into all your stuff.  A wet sleeping bag
	is about the worst thing at the end of a tired day.	

	Most kids (and adults) love a good campfire.  Don't forget the
	marshmallows, etc.  Let them feed the fire, etc. so they get used to
	fooling with it.  Most kids will and allowing them (training them)
	to do it right will only make them better for the experience.

	Remember, anything that bugs them will certainly get to bug you. ;-)

	Oh yeah, bring some band-aids.

	AA

One word of caution here.  Beware of heaters in closed tents.

Five members of a family who were camping near Cape Cod died in
their tent, apparently due to carbon monoxide poisoning from a
space heater.  Space heaters in confined areas are VERY dangerous.

Clay

    Since we're doing words of caution here, check out the propane gas line
    if you have a trailer.  A second trailer explosion in as many years
    occured over the weekend in Central Mass, again the probable cause was
    a gas leak from faulty piping.
    
    So guess what we did over the weekend? yup we spent it checking out the
    water and gas lines of our newly acquired, but not so new camper
    trailer.
    
    And oh yes Don't forget the fire extinguisher, even in a tent!!
    
    Lyn

    
    I would like some info from folks who have camped out West.
    We will be spending 2 weeks in August visiting the Grand Canyon, 
    Bryce, Zion, Sequoia and Yosimite national parks. We'll probably 
    be spending 1/2 the time camping outdoors. There is our first 
    camping trip outside New England. We have a 6 yr. old. 
    In New England, we worry about bugs, and rain. But, what 
    should we worry about out there? Someone mentioned we should 
    get sunblock 1000 ;-). Would thin cotton long sleeves work better 
    for sun protection? Would big rim hats help? Should we worry 
    about dehydration more? 
    
    I am also debating if I should get my daughter a pair of "pseudo"
    hiking boots, since we (the adults) would like to do some hiking.
    We also have to stock up on camping supplies, would it be cheaper
    to get them in MA/NH or should we wait till we get to Las Vegas?
    
    Any info will be much much appreciated.
    
    
    Eva
     

    Rattlesnakes.  Don't worry, just watch where you put your feet,
    and don't go on the shady side of large rocks or clumps of grass.
    Snakes being coldblooded will overheat in the full sun, so they
    try to get into the shade during the day.  
    
    Flash floods.  If you see clouds over the mountains uphill from
    you, stay out of the gullies, even if the mountains are twenty
    miles away.  The runoff can rush downstream for many miles.  
    
    Yes, get some sturdy shoes if you're going to do any hiking.  I'm
    not sure whether western sandstone shards are worse than eastern
    granite shards, but I wouldn't wear sneakers hiking in either. 
    
    Yes, wear a hat.  The places you're visiting are at 5000' or more
    altitude, and you have 5000' less air filtering out ultraviolet
    and other harmful rays.  You will sunburn even if you have a very
    good base tan.  Yes, most Westerners who have to work out in the
    sun a lot prefer thin long-sleeved white cotton shirts and hats --
    cowboys don't wear those big hats for show.
    
    --bonnie, from Montana

    
    Bonnie,
    	Thanks so much for the pointers. I just can't wait to 
    go out there...
    	
    
    
    Eva

For the rattlers, also make sure you don't put your *hands* where you can't
see them when hiking up a rocky area.  "Handholds" and snakes places are
very similar.  Remember, too, that rattlers are scared of people.  If you
make a lot of noise, they have a chance to "run" away from you.  Singing a 
song as you walk along is a good way to have fun and scare them away at
the same time.

Definately get the big hats.  You *will* need them.  I have found that hats
are best if they are higher than just the crown of your head, else your head
can get really sweaty and hot.

<    I am also debating if I should get my daughter a pair of "pseudo"
    hiking boots, since we (the adults) would like to do some hiking.<

Definately.  Get sturdy shoes with good traction.  High around the ankle
won't hurt, either, and it can protect her foot better.

<    Would thin cotton long sleeves work better for sun protection? 

Yes, and they are better protection in general if you hike through brush. 
Otherwise, I usually wear short sleeves, but lots of sun block. 

<    Should we worry about dehydration more? 

I don't know anything about "more" or "less".  However, we always take water
with us when walking/hiking.

Do you horseback ride?  Bryce is fun for that.  Zion is very green and
pretty.  Yosemite is a great place for hiking, or just sitting with a book
and resting.  Lots of critters come close to you if you have been still for
a while.  Look in the early morning for deer.

Here in Colorado Springs, it is over 6,000 ft up.  People get really tired
much faster than they are used to in lower elevations.  People can get
"altitude-sickness", too, although I never got it.  Take it easy if you go
to a high elevation fast.

BTW, there are still bugs in the west, too, just not as many of them!
Have a GREAT time!  You're going to some nice areas!

      Carol

    The symptoms of dehydration that I notice first are different in 
    New England than they were in the West.  In New England, I am
    likely to feel thirsty fairly early into dehydration.  In the
    West, this was for me a fairly advanced symptom.  Early symptoms
    were tightness in the chest, low-level fatigue that should not
    have been there, and sometimes a slight light-headed feeling.  It
    felt a lot like a mild allergy attack, actually.
    
    Carry quite a bit more water than you're used to.  The rule of thumb
    for desert areas is that you'll need at least 1/2 gallon per person
    per day if you're doing anything strenuous.  (The rim of the Canyon
    is at 7000' elevation -- walking may be strenuous for you, depending
    on how you react to the altitude.)  Gatorade is very good as a fast
    antidote for dehydration, if things get a bit out of hand.
    
    One other precaution regarding snakes and bugs:  Just keep your tent
    zipped and don't roll out your bedding until you're ready to climb in.
    That way, you'll be sure you don't have company.
    
    Beth

    
    Bring along warm clothes for evenings.  Unlike some places, it usually
    cools off at night.  I've worn mittens and a down jacket at night one
    summer when we were camping at North Rim.  Don't forget the binoculars,
    the views are spectacular!
    
    3 weeks till Yosemite for us!
    
    Rochelle

    
    Thanks everyone. I wouldn't have thought of snakes... 
    and down jackets....
    
    Keep the advice coming...
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    	If dehydration is a concern, add a pinch of salt and a pinch of
    sugar to a pint of water. The body can then absorb it much quicker.
    	If your're buying clothing, a down or hollofil body warmer may be a
    better general purpose garment than going for a duvet jacket (and
    cheaper!).
    
    		Ian G.

    You may also want to check the RV notes file at GENRL::RV for
    suggestions on routes, and campgrounds in the area.
    
    Donna

    	Dehydration is a very likely occurrence, especially if you
    	are coming from the humid east coast.  The air is drier here.
    	And at higher altitudes than you are used to, the air is
    	thinner -- making you breathe more heavily.  Each time you exhale
    	you breathe out moisture.  You may not sweat, but you will
    	lose more moisture than you would hiking at sea level.
    
    	I notice dehydration when I start getting chapped lips.  (Oh
    	yes, bring lip balm.)  More frequent small gulps work better
    	for me than infrequent long drinks.  It helps keep my mouth
    	and throat from drying out.
    
    	BTW, kids seem to be less affected by the thinner air than
    	adults do.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

re:  clothing


Yes, you need warm jackets, but also make sure that you have "in between" 
weight things like flannel shirts or "chamois" shirts that you can wear over a 
light shirt.  In other words, dress in layers -- that makes it easier to 
adjust to wind, sun, and temperature conditions.

Clay

    
    re. 47
    
    This is making me nervous...;-( 
    How cold does it get?
    I kind of expect the nights to be in the 50-60's...Is that too
    opimistic? 50-60's is excellent sleeping weather in New England...
    For my daughter, I plan to bring a fleece lined wind breaker,
    some sweats and then all summer clothes and a sleeping bag.
    But it sounds like we'll need more than that...I am counting
    on the thick New England blood to fight the chill...
    
    
    Eva
    

I think low 50's is what you will get.  I remember that as a Southern
Californian that was *cold* to me.  Now, as a Coloradan, it's not so bad. 

      Carol

    
    Yes, 50-60's is down jacket/mittens weather for this Southern Californian!
    
    
    Now, about my definition of traffic...
    
    
    Have a good trip,
    Rochelle
    

    We just got back from 3 weeks of hiking in Rocky Mountain National
    Park, Arches, Bryce, Zion, and Grand Canyon.  We had an 8 year
    old and an 11 year old (still have actually -- we didn't lose
    them ;-) ).  The kids had no trouble with the idiotic
    hikes we did (like into the Grand Canyon all the way to the river
    and back as a daytrip (16 miles)).  The heat was a problem (it
    was 120 at the bottom at the hottest part of the day).  We took
    towels and wet them at every stream and put them around the kids'
    necks.  We also took off their clothes and wet them.
    
    Arches (in Utah) was actually my favorite place.  Grand Canyon I
    felt was pretty useless unless you do the ridiculous hike.  Grand
    Canyon rim was crowded and unpleasant.  I don't think there are
    any interesting shorter hikes in G.C.  Arches is a very weird
    and beautiful place.  Like being on another planet.  And the
    hikes there aren't too strenuous.  There are strenuous hikes
    (like to double O arch), but there are also plenty of hikes less
    than 1 mile that take you to incredibly impressive arches.
    And even just driving around is really weird.  All these huge
    shapes out of red rock.  Like being in a world of giants.
    
    Oh, with all our hiking, we just had ordinary sneakers and did fine.
    I've never managed to get used to hiking boots, and they're hot and
    heavy.
    
    The Navajo Loop trail at Bryce was great.  Just 2 miles, round trip.
    At Zion, most of the hiking
    was scary (inching along a cliff with a huge drop on one side).  I'm
    in reasonable shape but I don't do well on scary stuff.
    The worst part was watching the kids running along the cliff edge
    not paying what I thought was sufficient attention.  I finally realized
    I couldn't watch them, so they went ahead with Daddy.
    
    And always carry water.  The only bugs we met were on the 15 mile
    round trip trail to the Kolob Arch in Zion.  That was a miserable
    hike.  A lot of trudging through sand with no shade and vicious
    deer flies that bite.  We did it to see if we thought we'd survive
    Grand Canyon.
    
    Have a great time!
    
    Radia

    
    re. .50 
    
    Thanks for clarification about temp. I know what you mean, I visited
    my sister (a LA longtimer) years ago, we went to San Diego at 
    X'mas time. I had a blast in 70 degrees weather, I mean, I was wearing
    short sleeves and trying to get a tan and my sister had a winter
    jacket on.
    Have fun at Yosimite.
    
    re. 51
    
    Thanks for the info.
    It sounds sooo gooood. I can't wait...11 days till the trip.
    
    I don't think we'll try the Grand Canyon hike with my daughter.
    I wonder if it's possible to get a donkey ride without any advance
    reservation. We would love to hike down, but we just don't want
    to get stuck half way with a tired kid. 
    Did you do any camping? Any pointers on that?
      
    Eva

    Re: Grand Canyon hike... I've hiked in the Grand Canyon several times,
    and the rangers STRONGLY recommend against attempting to hike to the
    river and back in one day.  They will cite any number of cases of
    people who try it (especially in the summer, where the inner canyon
    temps are well above 100) and have to be "dragged" (i.e. helicoptered)
    out, at your expense.  It's not necessary to go all the way to the
    river anyway.  Just walking down the trail a little ways will provide
    some beautiful views.  A good hike is to walk to the Mile-and-a-Half
    Resthouse (so named because it's 1 1/2 mi. below the rim) and back. 
    This will probably take about 2 hrs. round trip.
    
    Re: mule rides... you can probably get reservations when you get to the
    Canyon, but I think kids have to be at least 4' tall.  They might also
    limit it to age 12 and up, not exactly sure.  Check with the mule
    desk in the Bright Angel Lodge.

    re: Mules...  If you're really interested, I recommend calling the
    Canyon now.  At some times of the season, they're booked 6 months in
    advance.  They can tell you what their requirements are too.  (I know
    there's an upper weight limit of around 200 pounds.)
    
    Beth

    I *love* Arches too.  It's just spectacular.
    
    --bonnie