Conference moira::parenting_v3

    No answers, maybe just some suggestions that helped us out (or at least
    I think they did).
    
    I had a few books for my son that we occasionally read. The one in
    particular that he loved (and will still ask to read even though he is
    trained) is "Once Upon a Potty". You can get real animated with it in
    one part about the potty being a hat, a milk bowl for the cat, a flower
    pot, etc. And then Joshua "sat and sat and sat and sat......." (a whole
    page full of "sat and sat". Every now and then I hear "Is it a hat?
    Noooooo it's not a hat" from my son. I think it helped. 
    
    My son was also very scared to poop on the toilet. It wasn't until he
    developed diarehea and I saw him walking around practically doubled
    from cramps and wisked him to the toilet and he really let lose. It
    scared him that he could do that in the toilet but he was so thrilled
    to not have to be put into the tub and cleaned up (if it was smeared in
    a diaper or training pants). There are a number of suggestions in the
    old parenting notes conference (PARENTING_V2) about things to do to
    help get over the fear.
    
    Does your daughter know that she cannot go onto the next room at
    daycare until she wears underwear? Not that you want to add extra
    pressure on her, but she might see it as an incentive if she realizes
    she is bored.  
    
    Maybe ask her to wear underwear after she wakes up and has that morning
    tinkle and then put her back into diapers after an hour. Or better yet,
    she can ask for the diaper when she has to go. She can then
    go in the diaper if she has to. Then the diaper comes off and back into
    pants. I used to tell my son he could ask for a diaper when he wanted
    to poop. He didn't really want to be in a diaper so he had the
    occasional accident in training pants when I didn't get to him fast
    enough and he was "assuming the position" to go.
    
    What I would do is say absolutely nothing about diapers, underpants,
    toilets, etc for a while. Sometimes it's the constant reminder that
    gets them real frazzled (especially if you are changing their world for
    them). Then maybe try again.
    
    Good luck. It will come in time.
    
    Andrea

    If Katie is going to be three this August I wouldn't be overly
    concerned.  I know that the general rule is that girls are trained
    earlier than boys but Sam had no interest until he was three and
    a half and then it was so easy!
    
    Sam would always go off to do BM by himself too, usually under the
    kitchen table!  You may also be right about the disposables
    being to absorbent but I'd wait a little while to push her into
    training pants if she really isn't interested.  I strongly believe
    that if you put then into 'big girl/boy' pants before they want/
    are ready for it YOU get trained not them!  Besides enjoy a couple
    of more months of not having to worry about where the closest bath-
    room is!  Two or three more months could make all the difference
    in the world in Katies's attitude towards training!
              
    
    Good luck!
    
    Kathy

    If you're interested in books, you might want to try the Mr. Roger's
    book "Let's Talk About Going to the Potty".  He's got a whole series of
    "Let's Talk About..." books out, and although I haven't read this one,
    the "New Baby" book is great.  My nephew Brian loves Mr. Roger's and
    that book was a big help when Neil came home.  Good Luck.
    
                                          Tracy
    
    P.S. You can get any of the Mr. Roger's books at the Early Learning
         Center.

    Katie and my daughter Aisha are just a few months apart (Aisha was
    born in November). They sound alot alike. Aisha did all of the same
    things Katie is doing now. I had resigned to not even mentioning
    the potty to her, because she would pitch a fit or run. But, she
    knew when she had to poop, and when she had to pee. She would tell
    me she was doing it (she was another one for standing in a corner
    and yelling at anyone who asked her if she was pooping).
    
    We switched to cloth diapers a few months back...not for potty training
    reasons, but for environmental and monetary ones. Just a few weeks
    later she bagan using the potty at the sitters (her little 4 year
    old friend was there as a good example for her). I think it was because
    of the way the cloth diapers felt...either she felt wetter faster,
    or they felt more like underwear and she didin't want to get them
    dirty. This may have been just a coincidence, but I don't think
    so.
    
    I would do as the last note suggested. Tell her that she needs to
    use the potty in order to move to the older kids' room, and then
    don't mention it anymore at all. Leave her potty accesible at all
    times for her, and don't dress her in clothes that are hard to get
    off so if she gets the notion, she can go to the potty all by herself.
    
    Good luck!
    Dot

    My daughter was completely potty trained at 18 months.  What we
    did was to get her the potty seat that set right on top of the toilet.
    It has a step so she could get up on her own.  We did not force
    her to use it, she just did it on her own.  We always made a big
    thing out of it when she used the potty.  Made her feel like a "big"
    girl.  
    
    I had stated in another note about potty training how we were in
    Florida and my niece who is the same age as Adrienne was already potty 
    trained when we got there.  Adrienne thought it was really neat and
    was a little embarrassed to wear a diaper in front of Amy.  We told
    her it was okay, but she wouldn't wear one.  We had to go out and buy 
    her panties and from that day on she never wore a diaper.
    
    We also had the "Once Upon a Potty" book.  We/she loved to read
    it and look at the pictures.  I think that book is great for the
    potty training period.  It comes with a little doll named Prudence
    and a potty that looks like a little cup.  To this day she still
    likes to read the book.  Also, Prudence has a little panty type
    thing on that is removable.  Adrienne loves it.
    
    Good luck :-)
    Denise      

    re .0
    Well, we don't all have children who were potty trained before
    reaching 3.  Our son Tobias wasn't until 3 years and 10 months.
    He still wears a diaper at night.
    
    We didn't really force the issue.  Finally he said he wanted
    to wear pants and not diapers, and that was it (except for the
    inevitable few months of accidents).
    
    For quite a while before he was trained he'd object quite a bit
    about having his diaper changed.  We'd tell him that if he learned
    to go to the toilet like mommy and daddy he'd not have to wear
    diapers.  I don't know if that helped at all or not.

    I know what you mean about early training stories!  Steven showed
    zero interest in potty training at age 3, and even less awareness
    than your daughter is showing.  It was like he didn't even know
    that part of his body existed.  We had tried some of the standard
    techniques at around 2 1/2 but gave them up because all it was
    doing was upsetting him, and it seemed like the worst possible
    thing was to get too much emotional baggage associated with the
    business.
    
    Then suddenly, quite out of the blue, when he was about four
    months past his 3rd birthday, he decided he wanted to stop using
    diapers.  One accident and that was it.  
    
    I would interpret her anger when you ask her about it as an
    indication that she's not ready.  I wouldn't worry yet -- since
    her moving up to the other room is an issue, I'd make sure she's
    aware of it.  I'd make sure I wasn't doing anything to
    inadvertently interfere with her ability to use the potty if she
    wants (easy to manage clothes, accessible bathroom, that sort of
    stuff) and make sure the great-grandmother understands too.  And
    then I'd do my best to forget about it for a while.  She'll make
    up her mind when she's ready.
    
    --bonnie

    Thanks for all of the responses!  
    
    As far as making her aware of the preschool condition, she is aware of
    that fact we have told her.  Infact she is verryyyyy close to someone
    in her class that has been training for quite a while now, he will be
    moving on in Sept. hopefully that change will impact her.
    
    I dress her in easily removed clothing, when I shopped for her summer
    clothing I kept it in mind.
    
    I think she's just plain stubborn, has her own mind (and uses it very
    well).  It's just hard for me to deal with (I know get over it).
    
    It's funny, before I had her, people with kids that were whiney, I
    would say I hope I never have a whiney kid....guess what I got.. a very
    whiney kid.  Said same thing on the diaper issue too....
    
    Oh well, I'll just have to wait and see ......
    
    Thanks again,
    Karen

  Yipee!  I just had to announce that Matt had his FIRST potty experience
  last night!!!!!  (He's 2 yrs. and 1 month)

  He's always been interested in his potty.  First he started out sitting
  on it with his clothes on.  Then about 3 weeks ago he sat on it bare-
  bottomed before his bath.  But he never produced anything on it until
  last night.  I can't believe how excited I felt!  :-)

  The only catch is he only wants to sit on his potty before bath time
  (every other evening).  He likes sitting on it 'cos he'd rather sit on
  it than take his bath (which he usually loves!).  Then we usually have
  a hard time getting him off of it.  Other times when I ask him if he'd 
  like to sit on the potty he replies "NO!" and I usually say "OK" and let 
  it drop.

  1. Do you think I should continue to ask? Or will it sound like nagging to
     him?  
  2. Now that he's had his first success, will he have the idea? Or should
     I assume it was a fluke!  I don't want to push him, but I really feel 
     he is ready.
  3. How should I proceed now?  His pedi suggested we put him in training
     pants while he is outside. Isn't it too soon for training pants? (She
     suggested this at his 2 yr check-up after asking if he showed any 
     interest in potty training.)

� �ori

    re: Lori
    
    I think it is still too early to put Matt in a training pant.
    I didn't put Eric in the pant until he came to tell me that
    he wants to go and his diaper is dry all day.  However, you
    should definitely keep talking about it.  Read him books that
    talk about potty, and encourage him to use the potty.
    
    For Eric, his potty training go through the following stages:
    
    1.  Started to show interests
    
    2.  Willing to sit on the potty but didn't go
    
    3.  Willing to sit on the potty and will go most of the time
    
    4.  Tell mommy that he wants to go but most of the time he
        alreay went in the diaper
    
    5.  Tell mommy that he wants to go and can hold until sit
        on the potty (by this stage, his diaper is dry all day)
    
    
    
    
    It took Eric about 1 month to go through these 5 stages (he
    was 21 months then).  It can take Matt less or more time.
    Did you talk with his daycare teacher about potty training?
    If he is ready, his daycare teacher should be aware it and
    start to work on this issue too.
    
    Good luck, Wendy

    I remember starting Kat by putting the training pant on her during
    the middle of the afternoon, a time when her diaper normally
    stayed dry and she seldom had a bowel movement.  She only wore it
    for those few hours, then I'd change her and put a diaper on for
    her afternoon nap, when she always wet.  She was very concerned
    that the world would end if she went in the pants, so letting her
    start with only a couple of hours helped give her  positive
    reinforcement that she could wear these things successfully.
    
    She never seemed to interpret this as "mixed messages". 
    
    --bonnie

    My experience:
    
    Aaron's pre-school had a trained-before-promotion rule.  Eric's school
    does not.  Because of that, and first-time-through parents, Aaron got
    potty encouragement, books, etc., from probably age 2 on.  In Eric's
    case, we put a potty in the bathroom, and told him what it was for, but
    otherwise ignored the matter (as he ignored the potty).  As it played
    out, they both got "trained" at almost exactly the same age: 2 years 11
    months.
    
    I don't think parental encouragement (it was pretty relaxed) did Aaron
    any harm, but I don't think it did any good, either.  I think readiness
    is mostly physiological, and has fairly little to do with understanding
    or motivation.
    
    The two experiences were rather different for the _parents_, though. 
    In Aaron's case, we spent a fair amount of time encouraging him, which
    turned out to make little or no difference.  In addition, there was a
    huge difference in the worst phase of toilet training: the _almost_
    stage.  This is where they are out of diapers, but not out of
    accidents, and can't anticipate by more than 30 seconds when they will
    need to go.  Parent's are constantly lugging around extra clothes, and
    organizing their lives and attention around the location of the nearest
    bathroom.  It's no fun.  With Aaron, this phase lasted a couple of
    months.  With Eric, it lasted a couple of days.
    
    I have also concluded that pre-schools should not have a trained-before-
    promotion rule.  Mostly what it does is make parents needlessly
    worried.  For kids where motivation and understanding may be somewhat
    of a factor (few, in my opinion), it appears that much the most
    effective mechanism is peer example and peer pressure.  Keeping a
    late-trained child back with younger kids who are completely in diapers
    does the _opposite_ of what you want.  The last couple of kids in
    Eric's age-group who were not trained before they moved up became so
    within a couple of weeks after they moved to the "big kid's room."
    
    So, I'd say:  1) relax and wait.  2) talk to the pre-school about
    whether they really have a rigid rule, and if they do, whether they
    wouldn't like to change it(!).
    
    		- Bruce

�    I have also concluded that pre-schools should not have a trained-before-
�    promotion rule.  


I doubt that it has anything to do with a benevolent desire to see kids potty 
trained, or belief that a trained-before-promotion rule aids in the potty 
training process.  IMO it has more to do with the convenience of the daycare 
center and the preference of the teachere.  I agree that it doesn't serve any 
useful purpose from the kid's or the parents' point of view.

Clay

    Hi Karen!  My two cents . . .
    
    One of the things I did for Molly when she was about 2 1/2 was to get
    her some really pretty underwear  - I mean silky feeling, or with
    dancing bears on it and put them in her drawer with the rst of her
    clothes.  Every once in a while we would look at them and talk about
    how nice they looked/felt and how she could wear them when she was a
    "big girl".  When she was willing to try using the potty, I would put
    them on her right after a BM or pee for an hour or two and then put her
    back in her diaper.  After a short time she started to fight having the
    diaper put back on. I also let her pick out the underwear she wanted.
    
    And remember - as my Mother would say - nobody ever walked down the
    aisle in diapers!  It'll happen when you least expect it!

         <<< HELPME::DISK$HELPME_AUX:[NOTES$LIBRARY]PARENTING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Parenting >-
================================================================================
Note xxxx                 Toilet Training Advice Please               No replies
SCAACT::COX "Kristen Cox - Dallas ACT Sys Mgr"       27 lines  25-JUN-1990 09:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this morning may have been the start of toilet training for Kati, but
I'm not sure.

She has been "letting me know" when she has to go potty lately (holding her
crotch and saying potty, and usually squatting down), but if I put her on the
potty she never performs.  Usually I'm not close to her potty, so I have to put
her on a big potty, and she's always afraid she'll fall in.

This morning she wanted to go, so I took off her diaper and sat her on her
own training potty.  She sat there for a moment, then stood up and went all over
the floor right in front of her potty.  When she was done she wiped, etc., and
didn't seem to even realize she missed.

Is this how it usually starts?  I got overzealous when I found out I was 
pregnant again - and bound and determined not to have two in diapers - went out
to buy a toilet for Kati (then 12 months!).  She has always liked her toilet,
but more for watching tv, reading, and storing things in, and never knew what
it was really for.  Only in the last few weeks (she is now 16 months) has she
shown an interest in it for going potty.  Was today just a coincidence, or
could she be learning?  And if she is learning, how does one get her to go on
the potty?

Thanks in advance,
Kristen

P.S.  Last night she slept 10+ hours and a dry diaper too!  Something is
definitely weird......

    Kristen,
    
    I think this is a good start for toilet training.  However, I wouldn't
    push it.  Eric went through the same stage too.  He would tell me
    when he is peeing in his diaper.  What I did was, always ask him 
    does he want to sit on the potty even he already went in the diaper.  
    If he says yes, I will sit him on the potty, show him the wet diaper and 
    explain to him that he must tell me before he went.
    This lasted about serveral weeks then gradually he started coming
    to me ahead of the time and will go in the potty.   Another thing
    I did was, when some potty-trained kits came visiting us, I will
    take him to watch them go potty.  And expained to him, what's
    the potty is and how should he do it.
    
    Hope these helped.  Wendy

    In re: .15
    
    My guess:  Maybe (real helpful, right?).  Younger kids really have no
    idea what's going on, what a full bladder feels like, for example, or
    how to consciously control excretion.  So it is common (universal?) to
    have some confusion and poor timing in the early stages; but just
    paying attention to sensations at all is what gets it started.
    
    On the other hand, Kati is still awfully young, and things often don't
    proceed linearly.  Aaron showed similar interest and behavior at about
    age two, but then lost interest again for over half a year.
    
    So, just follow Kati's lead, and don't hurry things.  A child who is
    95% toilet trained is MUCH more hassle and aggravation than one who is
    still 100% in diapers.  The awful ALMOST-trained stage is much shorter
    when the child is fully ready.
    
    		- Bruce

    Then I guess James is kind of little for training?  The reason I'm
    wondering is because he is soaked to the skin most mornings (this
    is even with watching his fluid intake after dinner -- I know I
    said I'd never limit them, but I'm not 100% convinced that he
    needs 4 cups of juice between 7 and 8 p.m.).  In fact, he is starting
    to wake up at 4 or 4:30 fussing, and I wonder if he's saving up all
    his pee!  Seriously, he was drenched from armpits to ankles almost
    every morning last week.  I don't know if it's because his bladder
    capacity is growing or if it's because he has a cold.
    
    James is 27 months now.  He's always been interested in "pees and
    poops."  I've begun the psychological warfare -- "well, you wouldn't
    need to have your diaper changed if you knew how to use the toilet."
    
    On the other hand, the other day I said "potty-training," and he
    went "Choo-choo-choo-choo!"  So maybe he is a little young.  Any advice
    out there.

    Hmmmm.  Sounds like he has positive associations with railroad
    bathrooms.  Do you perhaps live near an Amtrack line?  Many people find
    the clackety-clack soothing while trying to sleep; why not at other
    times?
    
    		- Bruce (who actually took 24 hour train rides back and
    			 forth to college)
    

    .19 "Why not at other times"  From personal experience I find
    REPETATIVE noises soothing, intermittent noises sleep destroying.
    For example waves on the beach would be soothing.  A CONSTANTLY passing
    train would be ok.  But noises such as a dog barking, a loud party,
    an occasionally passing train (intermittent) would probably wake me up.
    A fog horn on the Maine Coast, where I grew up was LOUD and close but
    it never bothered me.  I noticed when it STOPPED OR STARTED but quickly
    got used to the new condition.  I suspect that he child sleeping near
    train tracks might experience a similiar reaction to mine.  Jeff

    
    
    Well here are my 2 cents worth.  When my oldest daughter went into
    preschool for speech problems she was 3 1/2 and sorta trained. 
    Meaning she was not dry at naptime or night time most of the time.
    Also she was still having occassionally accidents.  I will never
    forget when the school took me aside and told me they would have
    to 'kick' her out.....because she wet at naptime.  What a failure
    I felt like......   Through alot of work on my part and the teachers
    part she was finally dry most of the time.  (In other words we were
    trained to wake her up, remind her, generally chase her around)
    
    My son (number 2 child) trained night and day within 2 weeks at
    2 1/2.  I couldn't figure out what I had done so right with this
    kid, but thoaght it might have been him copying the little boys
    at the daycare center.
    
    My 3rd child, Megan, is now 2 3/4 and we are trying to train her.
    She sounds very much like the child in the base note.  She knows
    what she is suppose to do, does it on occasion, but also pee's or
    pooped in cloth diapers, paper diapers, and underpants without any
    problems.  Mostly she likes to be naked..........  One day she tore
    through the kitchen.... without underpants on......  pooped....
    then slid across the kitchen floor in it .....  Pretty gross, (also
    pretty funny in hind site...great story for her future husband)
    
    At anyrate, the oldest is almost 15 and is definately potty trained.
    I expect Megan will be too....  with little to no help from me.
    Then we will start training number 4 who is 20 months old....  I
    believe my oldest child just didn't feel when her bladder was full
    until it was too late.  Megan seems to wait to the last moment,
    grab herself between the legs and pee...saying...I'm peeing...
    
    So my wisdom is that the child will potty train when they are ready.
    If you happen to be fortunate enough to have that happen at age
    18 months, great, but don't worry until the child is 4-5 range.
    Then check with a physician to rule out any physical problem. I
    wish daycares didn't it into a 'graduation' require.           
    
    Susan C. (mom of 4 - 2 trained and 2 in diapers)
    
    

    I hope I'm not cursing myself but....... Katie seems to have made some
    progress.  Her attitude is much better, wants to try, and we've even
    used the potty several times.   I know I have a ways to go, but I feel
    better knowing we seem to be on the way.   It seems something is
    finally clicking in that connects the brain to the body.  
    
    Well, I hope we continue in the same path!!!
    
    Thanks for all the support.    
    
    Karen

    I've got one who several weeks ago looked at me and told me she needed
    another teddy bear.  So I said, fine, when you can stay dry all day in
    big girl pants, I'll get you another teddy. (She's 2 3/4 and has been
    using a potty for about a year while still in diapers; we tried
    training pants for a while last month and I think she got more
    frustrated than we or her day care teachers did and now refuses them,
    although she talks about them all the time.  We just take the diaper on
    and off -- lots of scotch tape some days!).  Well, she likes to come
    into the bathroom with me, and when I went the other day, looked at me
    and said,
    
    "Good girl, mommy!  You can get a teddy!"
    
    I love it!!!!!
    
    Sandy

    Hi everyone, thought I would catch you up on my original note.   
    
    The good news is....Katie is now potty-trained.  Everyone was
    right it seemed to happen pretty much overnight (with a little help).
    She had gotten a real bad yeast infection, that pushed things along 
    a bit.  She still wears a diaper to bed, but there have been nights
    where she has woken me up to us the potty.
    
    I do have a question though (not a very pleasant one).  When she first 
    started she did both BM's and Urinating w/o a problem.  She was 
    constipated (may still be) and now doesn't want to do her bms on the
    toilet, I've given her some Milk of Magn. and cut out the milk from her 
    diet to help loosen things up.  I'm not really convinced that's still
    the problem, more psychological now.  So anyways, didn't know how I
    should be handling (emotionally) this with her.  It's pretty gross, and
    it's getting rather annoying having to wash out lots of pants.  
    I talked to her about getting "rewarded" for doing her bms in the potty
    not sure if it's going to work.  Any suggestions/experiences would be
    welcome.
    
    Thanks!
    Karen

    Doing BMs on the potty usually comes later than urinating.... she could
    now have a fear of letting go of it... perhaps because it was a bit
    painful at one time, or whatever. I would suggest you don't make an
    issue of it at all. Just suggest that when she's ready to do a BM to
    let you know, you can put a diaper on, and then take it off when she's
    finished. At some point, she'll be ready to do them in the potty.
    
    BTW, my 2 year old son is just the opposite - he's been doing BMs on
    the potty for 4 months now, but pees any- and everywhere but!
    

Dear Karen,

I wish I had read your note back when you wrote it.  My daughter Lisa sounds
like a twin to yours!  I almost feel like pasting your note here to describe
my own daughter.

Lisa doesn't seem to have any developmental problem, so I don't think it's
related to that.

She did the same stuff:refuse to go potty, go off to somewhere for a bowel
movement, leave the same diaper on all day (again, no rashes wouldn't bother
her.  I also wanted her to use the bathroom because I had enrolled her in
nursery school way back when, but they don't do diapers.  I was afraid I would
loose the spot.

After months of trying to get her to use the bathroom, I finally came upon
this piece of advice: You haven't seen a 5 year old going to kindergarden in
diapers, right?  I made this my motto, because I realized I was trying hard 
enough and I none of this was my fault.

To answer your specific questions:

1) I never tried cloth diapers.

2) I did ignore it, and just wait until she told me she wanted to go.

3) I also wondered whether the fact that Lisa was home three days was slowing
her down.  Don't keep yourself up with this one.

4)  I did try just putting her in training pants, but ended up with pooped and
pee'd pants, and also frustated, so I gave up.

Of course, while adopting my motto kept me calm, it didn't solve the nursery
school problem.  I just resolved to loose the spot if I had to, because Lisa
and I were happier in every other respect.  As it turns out, she will be 
starting nursery school next week, potty trained!

And yes, it is very frustating when every body else tells you their kids
were going potty when they were two.  I even did this to myself!  My older
daughter was trained when she was 2.3 years and in two weeks.

Stay calm--- Mari :-)

I second 50.25's suggestion.  This might reassure her and might take the 
pressure away.

It might not be an option because of the nursery school?  Let us know.

Mari

    She has just (this week) started in the pre-school room at daycare.  
    I really don't believe that's the reason why she has this problem.
    I think because of the constipation before, now she's having a hard
    time.  I have to say that the "presents" she leaves aren't the right
    texture (this is so gross) that's where I'm thinking the problem is.
    
    Boy, sometime's these discussions we get into are really something, oh
    well where else can you find such a large spectrum of
    opinions/experiences?
    
    Thanks, K

    You might try apple juice or applesauce, unsweetened.  That always
    helps loosen my kids and seems to promote the bowel movement, too.
    
    --bonnie

    prune juice also is quite effective, tho kids often don't like the
    taste.
    
    if you increase the amount of fruits in the diet this is often more
    effective than relying on milk of magnesia.
    
    also show her various ways to push....if she is on the big toilet
    with a potty seat she won't be able to push with her legs which
    is a big help with slightly constipated movements.
    
    Bonnie

    I feel funny telling you this, but I suppose I should end the story....
    SHE DID IT...LET LOOSE....finally.  Katie is feeling much better now.
    On Tuesday (her Nana day) nana gave her a little bit of prune juice
    mixed with another juice, Katie kept saying she had to go...seemed to be
    very upset.  Nana took her in the bathroom said, stand the way you 
    used to when you wore diapers (Katie would stand/hide when she used to
    do it in her diapers) and start to push it.  She did and as soon as she
    started, Nana had her sit down on the toilet.    Leave it to Nana!
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions....
    
    K
                                   

Sammy's been dry (training pants that is) for the last 5 weeks.
Now, how do we tell when he's ready for the other number (poop)?
He's dry through the night (we have been using diapers on long
trips and night time).

He does tells us AFTER the fact when the evident smell is
present. I understand that some children, poop control comes
first like my nephew; he potty trained on poop but he still have
a hard time controlling his urine.

cal

    Cal,
    
    You may have to rely on Sammy himself to tell you when he's ready
    to use the potty for pooping. My son used the potty for pee for
    three months before he began using it for poop too. (In the interim
    he would ask for a diaper for pooping.)
    
    I kept urging him to try pooping on the potty and got nowhere. But
    he did it for his sitter and at nursery school, and finally just 
    started on his own at home too. I guess the laissez-faire method
    really can work. Good luck to you!
    
    Lucy
    

Lucy,

This last weekend, he started crying every time he pooped. We
thought that he had problems with bowel movement so we asked him
why he was crying. He said that he wasn't going to watch
choo-choo (the train short videos from the Ringo Starr narrated
series on Shing-Time station).

We had set up this reward system for him to keep his pants dry. A
dry pants warrants a dynasour cookie; a dry pants warrants a 5
minute segmant of the train-video and or "poppa-corn". Little did
we know that it would cause him stress.

cal

Traveling time in the middle of potty-training. We're going to
Grandma's and Grandpa's tomorrow. What to do about potty while
enroute?

My sister and mom said they didn't so I have no reference. Judy's
folks didn't travel while the babies were potty training.

We have a FP convertable potty so we plan to have that along,
along with a shovel and kitty litter to control the smell.

any more ideas? I'll fill in on how we did next monday.

cal

    Cal, 
    
    For the first child, we bought a pocket-sized foldup seat, which worked
    everywhere.  You can get these a some department or baby stores for
    about $8.  This worked on the plane and everywhere else.
    
    For the second child, we just held her in place!        
    

    When we traveled long distance by car we brought the whole seat.  When
    we were just on a quick 1-2 hour trip, we used the trusty potty bowl
    (for those little boys who stand) or a small glass jar.  Only had to do
    this once.  IMHO - boys are much easier to travel with than girls.  
    
    -sandy
    

jane,

He's so used to being able to go when he needs to. He's able to
hold his pee all night most days in the last 5 weeks.

My boss has a Dodge Voyager so they had the potty seat in the van
and Heather just gets into the potty even enroute. We have a
station-wagon and it's a little more complicated. I intend to
pull over and let him out of the car seat and sit on the potty.
We do have one of those seat adapters for toilets.

Like I said, we will post our experience here monday next.

thanks so far.

cal

    
    What we really have here is reinforcement of the idea that trying to
    hurry toilet training ain't worth it.  It primarily lengthens the
    unpleasant transition period when one is constantly nagging the kid
    about the state of his/her bladder, and obsessed about the location of 
    the nearest bathroom whenever out of the house.  Arron taught us
    this lesson, and the timing was left completely up to Eric; he got
    through the difficult period in about one week.
    
    		- Bruce
    

We had a very successful trip to and from Grandparent's house; 9
hours each way. We made frequent stops and stopped when Sammy
said he needed to go potty. It worked well enough that he was
able to use his portable potty when there wasn't any road stops.

We were in our Jeep Cherokee and he was able to sit in the potty
just behind the seat. I stopped every time since we do not allow
him to move around when the car is moving; he MUST stay in the
car seat, strapped in.


cal thankful for a big boy!

Hi,

Advice please.  My son is now 2� months old.  He's been interested in his
potty for a very long time.  At around 20 months he's sit on it (clothed).
Around 22 months he'd sit on it bare bottomed.  Even "went" in it once. 
Around 24 months he'd go in it occasionally.

In July and August (he was ~26-27 months old), he always went in the potty.
Note, he wasn't trained (still went in his diaper), but every time we put 
him on the potty, he produced. (Even poops!)  We encourage him, and gave him
an M&M as a reward.  His daycare did nothing to help him along with his potty
training at this point, even when I suggested they try. They said they didn't
want to "nag" him, because everytime they asked him to sit on the potty, he'd
say no.

We changed daycares at the end of September with no problems. He still went 
fairly frequently on his potty, but wasn't trained, and rarely went on the 
potty at daycare. (In other words, he'd made no progress since July!  If 
anything, he may have regressed a bit because he won't make poops on the potty,
and sometimes refused to sit on the potty)  Last month I asked his teachers to 
start helping me with potty training, and they agreed he was ready.  They 
suggested getting him some training pants (which I already had) or some 
underwear.  I let him pick out his underwear (DuckTales) which he really 
liked, and he'd wear them over his diaper.

They put him on the potty 3 or 4 times a day, but he almost never produces!
One day last week, he let out a small poop and got very upset and wanted to
finish in his diaper. They gave him lots of praise and had a talk with him 
about going poop on the potty, and put him in a diaper.  I don't know if that
incident had anything to do with this, but now he almost never wants to use
his potty at home.  The only time he'll try is after his bath.  Everytime I
ask if he wants to go potty, he ALWAYS says no.  He still tries at school, but
never produces.  (He always wakes up, morning and after nap, with a dry diaper,
but either won't sit on the potty, or sits for a long time without producing!)
He also doesn't want to wear his underwear anymore.  He asks me to put him in
Onesies.

Last night I decided to put his potty away and not mention "potty" to him for
awhile.  (Give him a breather).  I don't want to put pressure on him, and I'm 
starting to feel frustrated at his lack (or backwards) progress, so I thought 
it was best.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?  I expected potty training to take 
about 6 mos, but it's been 6 mos. and we're no closer!  When will this happen??
I'm so SICK of hearing from parents, neighbors, friends, relatives, and EVERY-
ONE who asks me if he's potty trained, and then insist that all THEIR children 
were trained by 2!!!

Please, if your child was trained at 18 mos., I don't want to hear from 
you! ;-)

< Note 50.41 by CHCLAT::PROTEGE "If you wish upon a star..." >
                       -< Potty training down the drain >-

>>>My son is now 2� months old.

My, at 2� months, he's using the potty. I know others claimed
that their kids were potty trained at 18 months. 8)

I know that it was just a typo (I hope since all the other
references were for an older child.

Sammy started to show that he could "produce" by sitting on the
potty about 26 months. Judy started to buy a potty and training
pants by end of september. We went through mid october wonder
when he will but he started to hold his pee and had been
successful since beginning November. We have a reward system;
dynasour cookies or rasins for keeping the pants dry between
periods of 30-45 minutes. We also have a tape of
Thomas_the_Tank_engine narrated by Ringo Starr as areward since
he loves trains. We used a kitchen timer for a while so
that he would go sit on the potty every 45 minutes or before if
he needs to go. That helped him identify what the urge is about.

We are still working on the poop part. He had two success so far
in two weeks. Trains, cookies or what ever, we are still working
on the potty training.

They will come around to it in their own time; a lot of praise
and rewards will help.

calvin

    Brian didn't begin using the toilet until right around his third
    birthday.  It was never pushed on him at all.  The potty chair was in
    the bathroom and he'd occaisonally sit on it before or after his bath,
    but that's it.  He also had some training pants that were shown to him
    when they were bought (at about 2 1/2) and then put in his drawers.  We
    waited until he asked to start wearing them.  He only had a few
    accidents during the day and within a week he was staying completely
    dry.  He kept his night-time diaper for another month or so.  When he
    asked to try without it, we did.  He had a few accidents in the new two
    weeks and then started to stay dry.
    
    For us, the key was just waiting until he was ready.  I'd much rather
    change diapers for a longer time than have a six month period of having
    accidents.  Luckily, he was ready before kindergarten!
    
                                                Tracy

    My third child, Megan, turned 3 in October and was fairly consistanly
    daytime trained in September.  She is still in Diapers at night, as she
    has only had 2 nights of dryness since October.  Megan still has
    accidents if she is particularly interested in something and busy. 
    
    Heather, my 4th child, was 2 in October and is trying to train now.  It
    child is ready at a differant time in thier life.
    
    
    susan

    I feel that toilet "training" is largely mythical.  Every kid has a
    pre-programmed age at which s/he is ready.  The length of your training
    period will be the interval between when you start and when the kid
    is ready.  My boys were both programmed to be ready at 35.5 months.  The 
    first went through a (useless) "training" period of several months.  The
    second was left alone, and "trained" himself in about one day, at the 
    exact same age.  Of course, nobody who really knows will tell you what
    age your particular kid is programmed for, so you just have to wait
    and see.  But as any pre-school teacher will assure you, it is NOT going
    to be as late as Kindergarten.  In fact, if you check your warrantee, 
    you'll see that any child who waits that long may be returned for a 
    replacement model at no charge.
    
    		- Bruce

    Gee Bruce you're realllllllly funny today!  I'm sure there's a question
    on college applications about standing up in the bathtub.  :-))))

    re .41:
>Last night I decided to put his potty away and not mention "potty" to him for
>awhile.  (Give him a breather).  I don't want to put pressure on him, and I'm 
>starting to feel frustrated at his lack (or backwards) progress, so I thought 
>it was best.

I'd recommend leaving the potty out (unless it's a real nuisance because
you're always tripping over it or something), rather than put it away.  What
worked for us with David was to set the potty up, buy the "Joshua and his
potty" book (wrong title, but I don't have the book right now), read it with
him every so often (usually on his request), and then just sit back and
wait for him to "train" himself.  We used *no* rewards, *no* special
encouragement techniques.  Over the space of about 5 months (starting several
months after we bought and set up the potty), he gradually used the potty
more and more often, until he reached the point of never wearing diapers
during the day (he still wears them at night).  We had almost no accidents
(less than 10, I'm sure) during that 5-month period.  The whole process was
totally painless for all of us.

Getting criticism and sneers from other people is hard to deal with.  I had
none of that, even though my mother said we were all trained by 2 years old.
(She just stated it as fact, didn't imply that we were bad parents for not
doing the same.)  Perhaps get some ammunition from your doctor (and this
conference!) on why it's generally not believed that "early" toilet training
is in the child's best interest nowadays, so that you can bury 'em in facts. :)

							cheryl

    I agree with Bruce . . . 
    
    Steven showed no interest in toilet training -- in fact, next to
    no understanding of the concept, despite books like Joshua and the
    potty, until just after his third birthday.  At which point he
    decided he was ready for regular underwear.  He had one accident
    the first day, and another the following week, and that was it. 
    No trouble, no phase-in, no nothing.  Quite a contrast to Kat's
    youth, when I was still experimenting and didn't know all this
    stuff . . . sometimes I wonder how the first one even survives.
    
    --bonnie

    I second the advice to ignore the pressure from other people -- they
    are not your child's parents! When people used to ask if my son was
    trained yet, I'd say "he's not ready" or "no, he hasn't trained me yet"
    or something light.
    
    My son trained himself starting at about 33 months. Now at 3, he's 
    still using a diaper at night and for some naps. We know two
    3-year-olds (one boy, one girl) who are not interested at all yet.
    I also second Bruce's advice to let the child show you when he's
    ready; otherwise you drive yourself crazy. 
    
    Good luck, it WILL happen!
    
    Lucy
    

    Three out of four of mine were potty trained at 3 years old.  I think
    that most pre-schools are reluctant to even try to potty train your
    youngster before about 2 1/2 due to the fact that most kids are not
    trained until they are 3.  
    
    I also take parent's insistence that THEIR child was trained at 18
    months or so with a HUGE grain of salt, and a large degree of
    skepticism.  They may have started training at that age, but in all
    likelihood their chiild was truly trained anly by the age of 3 or so.
    
    And usually they learn to urinate first, solids come later FWIW. With
    my twins I didn't attempt to train them till they hit 3.  I kept
    waiting for a "sign" that they were "ready".  Finally I just took away
    their diapers and put them in UPs and they were trained in about
    10days.  But they were 3 at the time I started.  With my third child I
    started at about 32 months introducing the potty etc.  He was trained
    at about 3, just like the others.  Number 4 child is only 15 months, so
    we have a ways to go.
    
    Try to be patient, try not to push.  I know it's tiresome not to
    mention expensive to use diapers when they seem capable of using the
    potty.  He'll get there!
    

    I was just wondering... Penelope says that at about 1 year it doesn't
    hurt to buy a potty so your child can get used to seeing it in the
    bathroom, and maybe even sit on it.  She's not implying in any way that
    potty training should start that young, just that having the potty
    there will get the child used to seeing it.  Did any of y'all expose
    your child to a potty seat that young?
    
    Steve

RE: -.1
>>  Did any of y'all expose your child to a potty seat that young?
    
I bought my son's potty when he was about 1 yr. 3 mos.  He LOVED it because he
thought it was a little chair just for him.  After awhile, he had more fun
taking it apart and putting it together (it's a Fisher Price potty, with 3
pieces).  So I put it away for about 6 mos. and then put it in the bathroom
when he was 20 mos.

BTW, in my previous note I said I was going to take the potty away for a few
days. Well, my son ASKED for it the first night, so it's back out again.  I
rarely mention it to him.  He asks to use it at night after bath (on bath 
nights) or at p.j. time (on non-bath nights).  I'll just let him lead.

    re: .50, I think -- 
    
    It all depends on the kids. Some kids can control their bodies
    much  younger than three.   My son's daughter was trained at a
    year.  No backsliding, no problems. And both my kids who have gone
    through the training stage got control of BM's well before the
    bladder control.  
    
    As soon as you set down a "rule" for how toilet training goes,
    you'll find a kid who did it differently. 
    
    --bonnie

    re .53:
    
>>>    much  younger than three.   My son's daughter was trained at a
                                      --------------

uh, Bonnie, need another cup of coffee?  I *know* your sons are too young to
have offspring of their own.  :)  :)
				cheryl

	Katie had her 18mo checkup yesterday and the doctor brought up Potty 
training.   He said that although we'll hear a lot of parents bragging about 
their prodigious potty trained 18mo olds, that's really a bit early for most 
kids.  Their (our pedi group's) guideline is to start training the spring/summer
after the child's 2nd birthday once the child shows some awareness of the 
functions.  He did also say that it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and get a potty 
so she can be exposed to it.

Tracey

	

    re: .54
    
    Ooops.  That's my BROTHER's daughter.  
    
    --bonnie

    Well, Matt at 3.2 years old shows NO interest in potty training.  I am
    beginning to wonder if I will be changing diapers for the rest of my
    life, (and his).  Yes we do have a potty seat and have regularly
    exposed him to it. We have placed very little pressure on Matt to use
    it.              Jeff

At daycare this summer, they decided that it was time for Evan (2.4) to be potty
trained because he did so well there with dry diapers.  We had them hold
off for a month because we were planning a long (car) vacation.  Then we
all sat down (Shellie, daycare provider, and myself) and had a long talk.

At home, Evan did not like to go potty.  We didn't want to push him.  We
*learned* from what you folks said, and didn't want the hassle.  So we made
an agreement.  They could train him at daycare, as long as *Evan* agreed.
If he pitched a big fuss, they would have to stop.  We, on the other hand,
weren't going to worry about it.  If he wanted to go on the potty, we would
encourage it, but we wouldn't require it.

We took him to the store to pick out "big boy pants."  He wasn't the slightest
bit interested.  We took him to daycare in big boy pants that morning, along
with changes of clothes.  He did perfectly all day.  We took him home in
big boy pants, and decided to keep him there unless he refused to go.  He did
fine.  After that we just decided that he has an option: he goes potty when
we suggest it, or else he wears diapers.  

The result is that he became potty trained (poop and all - they were surprised)
almost immediately.  He *still* fusses at home when we tell him to go potty,
and we have learned that he can hold it *forever*, so we don't insist now
unless it has either been 3 hours (or more) or else we are going to be in
a car for more than an hour or so.  At night he sleeps in Huggies pull ups.
We also use these on long car trips occasionally, just in case.  Except when
we were still insisting, it was very easy.  Evan is now 2.8 years (birthday
March 11).

       Carol

P.S. Oh, yeah.  Sometimes we cheat.  We get his pants off and wait a minute
before we suggest he goes potty.  When that cold air has been hitting him for
a minute or so, he usually *rushes* into the bathroom!  Also, he noticed one
day that when he urinated in the toilet it made bubbles.  Now he enjoys
"making bubbles".  :-)

    In re:.58.  Carol:  I bet it's not just bubbles.  Although he might
    seem to suffer from having no direct role model in this business, I bet
    it is far more important to Evan as a source of pride and self
    satisfaction that no one else in the household can stand up to (with)
    him when it comes to  this functionality.  We all make bubbles, just
    some of us can watch them easier than others.
    
    In re: earlier.  Although age 3 seems typical, I sure some kids are
    ready much earlier.  I think having potties around is great, and
    talking about the whole business will be easier for some _parents_ if
    started before the kids know how to understand (!).  Playing at things
    they can't yet do is a standard way for tots to plan ahead.  Just don't
    try to twist their arms about starting to use it for real before they
    want to.
    
    In re: Jeff Gilman.  If concerned, see my earlier entry about your
    rights under warantee.
    				- Bruce

Carol

"Making bubbles" brought a giggle in a sad day for us. Sammy's
term was making bubbles also.

Why the sadness? Transition is quite a shocker after 6 years in
the same group and now looking for new work. Yup, Sammy's daddy
is looking for work.

calvin

    Sorry to hear that Cal.
    
    Carol - what are Huggies pull-ups?
    

I'm sorry to hear that, too, Cal.  If you are interested in the CSC here,
why don't you send me mail and let me know what your basic skills and 
interests are?

<    Carol - what are Huggies pull-ups?
    
They are elastic waisted diapers that the child can pull up like 
underwear.  They make the child feel "big" but give the extra protection
from leakage that is needed if the child isn't able to take care of their
needs fast enough.  Evan does really well during the day, but doesn't make
it through every night dry, so using the pull-ups keeps us from having
to change the bed sheets and blankets and Evan's clothes in the middle
of the night.

Bruce, sorry to disappoint you about your hypothesis.  Evan doesn't pee
standing up.  At daycare they taught him to sit and point his penis down.
This is the same way that my spouse's little brother was taught by his 
parents, and the same way my mother heard that little boys were supposed to
do it when first learning.  Since I am an only child, this was news to me,
and I have since heard that some boys learn standing up first, but at any
rate, he was sitting when he noticed the bubbles the first time.

        Carol

    My daughter, Courtney, has been showing minor interest in the potty
    for about 6 months (she's 2.2 years now).  She would do real well for
    BM's on the potty for a while and then completely lose interest.  We
    never pushed her and this was always while she was still wearing
    diapers.  
    
    On Sunday, she decided she wanted to wear big-girl underpants.  Now
    she's done this before and never really had any success (and never
    cared either).  So we said fine and she was dry all morning for us.
    We had to go out for the afternoon and my in-laws came over to babysit.
    They said she didn't do as well for them at all.  When we came home,
    she stayed dry for us for the rest of the day. 
    
    The next day, I had to stay home because the sitter's kids were sick.
    And she did great again all day ( a few little leaks but nothing
    major).
    
    So, we sent her to the sitter's in her big-girl pants and major
    disasters!  Again, she did fine at home.  The next day she didn't
    want to wear big-girl pants to the sitters and went in diapers.  Again,
    she did fine once we got home.
    
    A couple of points.  I tend to just let her tell me when she needs to
    go or when I see she's doing a "little dance".  I think both the sitter
    and my in-laws were constantly asking her if she needed to go potty.
    She gets very mad and says "NO".
    
    Does this sound pretty normal?  Should we just keep doing what we're
    doing?   Should I ask the sitter to let her call the shots?  Does it
    sound as though she's really ready this time or are we going to fast?
    
    By the way, I still put diapers on her at night, but those Huggies
    pullups sound great.
    
    Susan
    

    
    It sounds quite normal to me, and I think I'd deal with it just about
    as you are doing.
    
    		- bruce
    

   For those that are having difficulty potty training, I thought I might
   relate the method that my wife, Barbara used with our son, Andrew.
   This comes from a book titled something like "How to potty train in a day".
   
   Firstly, Barbara got a "wetting" doll, as well as a small (concealable in
   the hand) squirt bottle. Then with no distractions or interuptions around,
   she and andrew sat on the bathroom floor, with Andrew Barebottomed. He had
   been "primed" with a reasonable amount of Juice before hand. Barbara and
   andrew then played at giving the doll a drink (as well as several of his
   stuffed animals.) She would then hold then in front of the potty, and from
   the hidden squirt bottle, send water into the potty. After a couple of
   rounds of this, ANdrew climbed onto the potty and said "andrews turn", and
   we haven't looked back since. He progressed off of the potty to a full
   toilet within weeks, and for a while after was only wearing diapers at
   night , and even then under sufferance. THen we found the Huggies
   "Pullups", which he now wears to bed. We have half a pack of disposable
   diapers left, and I have they will just sit around until we have visitors
   that need them.
   
   All this happened at about 2 yrs 3 months. He is now 2 years 6 months..
   
   If anyone want a reference to the potty training book, give me a yell...
   
   
   q 
   
   

    
    I find myself puzzled by .65.  Why did Andrew Barebottomed need these
    elaborate simulations if he has a father around the house?
    
    		- Bruce
    

    Bruce, really!
    
    Simulation results in immediate cause and effect ...
    
    Reality is give papa a drink and a few hours later he pays a visit ..
    
    Which do you think is going to work best ?????
    
    Stuart   :-)

Hey, Stuart, if he were  a girl and had a pregnant mom around then
there would be no problem with peeing on demand!

Liz

    I plan to try the Andrew Barebottomed method with Matt tonight. I plan
    to use his stuffed bear and prime Matt with juice beforehand.  Matt
    is 3.25 and I think he just needs to get the idea that there ARE
    options other than using his diapers.  Matt has had demos from me and
    boys at daycare MANY times.  He just watches and sort of goes ummmm and
    runs off uninterested.  So we will see how the Barebottomed method
    works tonight.  Jeff

    Well, I tried the Barebotted Method on Matt last night with his stuffed
    bear and a squirt bottle as the source of liquid for the demo.  I had
    Matt all primed with juice and partly unbuttoned so that he could copy
    Bear if he so choose.  He LOVED watching Bear 'go'. I had the bottle
    positioned so that things were 'anatomically correct'. In fact he loved
    the squeeze bottle and how it worked even more than watching Bear 'go'.
    The net result was a kid fascinated with the squeeze bottle and still
    no interest in copying Bears toilet demo. (Matt is 3.25 yrs old).
    Oh well, I guess he is just NOT ready.
    
    Jeff

Jeff,

I feel for your situation. Does your son have a play group that
might lend some peer influence? Sammy was sitting on the potty in
February but he really used the potty only starting in October.
He does make the statement that so-and-so pooped in their pants;
the peer pressure for not pooping in the pants.

Our current problem is for him to not poop in his big-boy pants
(what a mess to clean up when there's loose stool).

calvin

    Calvin, Matt does go to a womans home for Daycare.  He has had MANY
    demos from me and boys at Daycare.  He know HOW... he just isn't
    interested.  As Carol said, don't push it because I will just trade
    one set of problem for another:  From diapers to messed pants and
    needed INSTANT toilet trips when at places where there IS no toilet.
    So I think I will sit back on this and let Matt pick the time.
    Tx. for the advice.
    
    Jeff

	Jef, 

	Just goes to show that no matter what problem you have someone will want 
to trade with you. :-)

	Having heard all the "don't push them" stories here, we decided that we
were not going to do ANYTHING with Katie, who is 19months, for at least 3 or 4 
more months and then only if she were interested.  Our pedi concurred.  Our 
daycare teacher did not.  (She said that Kaite was showing interest at daycare.)

	We like and respect Sharon, so we figured what the heck?  We'll 
compromise.  We'll get a potty and just have it there.  Not push it at all.
Fine.  We got a potty Friday afternoon. 

	We didn't count on Katie.

	Katie is VERY easy going; has had only about 3 major tantrums in her 
entire life.  One of them was Friday night when we tried to pull her OFF the 
potty.  This kid is not just interested in the potty.  She's obsessed!  The up 
side is that since Friday night she has pooped in the potty 3 times.  (Two of 
them, she warned us of ahead of time and asked for the potty. (!) One time 
we missed cause we didn't understand what she was saying.)  The down side is 
she wants to sit on it for half an hour at a time (maybe longer... We've never
let her sit there long enough to find out what the upper limit is...:-))

	Argghh!!  Jeff, I'll trade you a little indifference to teh pot for some 
obession....  :-) :-) :-)

Tracey

    Tracey,
    
    This is very normal in my experience, when kids start using the
    "potty."  With Lolita and with Carrie we had the same reactions for the
    first couple of weeks, then the novelty wore off, and things settled
    back down to normal.  Lolita was 18 months and Carrie 19 when she was
    ready.  The next fun will be getting to inspect the plumbing in every
    restrant, mall and grocery store you walk into.  This also will wear
    off in a month or so.
    
    Have fun,
    
    Meg

	re: Meg and this is normal and will wear off in a few weeks.	

	Oh good.  

	I was beginning to worry that Katie was a Felix Unger clone.  She begs 
to brush her teeth (in fact if she's moving a little slowly when going to bed we 
remind her that she "gets" to brush her teeth first and she runs to the stairs
yelling "teeth teeth!").  She loves baths and has since the day she came home
(no problem pouring water over her head ever.)  We have to hide the fingernail
clippers from her because she will insist on having her fingernails and toenails
clipped even if they are already cut to the quick.  While she's eating, she will 
often want to wipe her hands several times. When she's done eating, she wipes 
her hands and face (very thoroughly), the highchair tray, the highchair arms, 
any spills on the floor... and then throws away the wipe or paper towel.   
Spills of any kind bother her until they are cleaned up.  A true joy in her 
life is to be given a paper towel to clean it up and throw away. :-)  She's 19 
months old and has been doing all of these things for months with little to no 
prompting/encouragement from us.  I was afraid that this potty phase was just 
another facet of her cleaniness/personal hygeine fetish.(Afterall most stories 
I've heard here and elsewhere have been that you can't get the kid ON the pot, 
not OFF. :-))

	Mother of a future control/neat freak

Tracey

	(I know, I know, when Katie is a teenager and I look in her closet I 
will look back on these days with fondness... :-) :-) )

    re .71 and a couple other references to what to do about the mess when
    the solid stuff ends up in the big boy pants, we resolved this for the
    most part by using Diaper doublers inside AJ's big boy pants, they look
    like an extra long, extra wide Kotex pad, and are designed , obviously,
    to use inside a regular diaper probably for overnight dryness.  If AJ
    has an "accident" I usually can get away with just changing the
    doubler.
    
    A little background, AJ turned 4 this week, but is delayed by about 1.5
    years in potty training because he had a colostomy until 16 months old. 
    He is seeing a psycologist (all of us actually are seeing him) who
    specializes in toileting problems, it has helped us tremendously.
    
    Lyn
    

    A couple of weeks ago, we put the potty chair in the bathroom,
    mostly so James could get used to the idea of seeing it there
    right next to the big toilet (Small bathroom -- not too many other
    places for it.).  He sat down on it a couple of times fully
    clothed.  I ask him once, maybe twice a day, if he wants to use
    it, in the same tone of voice I use when I ask him if he'd like
    something to drink, and he's been saying no.  Should I continue
    to ask once a day, or should I drop the subject?  I think he's
    almost ready to learn; he's been getting up from naps bone-dry
    and he'll tell me if he's "soaking wet."

    What age is your son?
    
    Lynne

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 50.79                       POTTY-TRAINING                         79 of 79
FDCV06::HSCOTT "Lynn Hanley-Scott"                    5 lines  14-JAN-1991 13:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    How 'bout getting a potty book - we have one that is orange colored
    about a little boy named Joshua who learns to use the potty. They have
    the female equivalent as well. It shows the body parts, as well as the
    trials and efforts to actually go in the potty!
    

    James is 2.75.  I'm not in a tearing hurry, it's just that I'm
    pregnant again and would like to have him trained before #2 
    (excuse the expression) arrives in mid-June.  Again, I want to
    be as relaxed as I can and not pressure him.  He can get _awful_
    stubborn...

    The only way we got Jason remotely interested (and it's pretty remote),
    was to reward him if he did go.  "Jason, if you go pee in the potty,
    you can have a piece of candy" or cookie or whatever.  It worked a few
    times, and he's back to not wanting to again.
    One thing to keep in mind .... they say that when #2 is born that #1
    regresses a few months.  We were advised by Christopher's pediatrician
    to not even TRY to train him until after Jason was born and things had
    settled down a bit.  The Dr. thought it would be too discouraging
    and/or frustrating if he was changed and then went back to diapers. 
    Happy to say that when Jason was 2 mos old Christopher decided it was
    time to learn, and that was that.  About a month before he turned 3.
    

    Please don't use food as a reward.  Try stickers - they worked for both
    of ours.  For the first we put up a piece of construction paper and our
    son was able to put the stickers on himself (as well as choose them at
    the store).  For our second the paper didn't work so we stuck the
    stickers on the toilet cover (need a new one anyway).
    
    If your son is almost three why don't you skip the potty chair and let
    him use the toilet like the "big" kids do.  Might be an incentive.

    He tries to use the 'Big Chair', but (aside from being incredibly
    stubborn) he has a few problems with this ....
    
    1) He's *WAY* too short (of course that doesn't bother him, but I'm
       tired of washing the floor)
    
    2) He refuses to use a stool cuz the 'big kids' don't.
    
    3) He won't sit down cuz he thinks he's going to fall in.
    
    He used to think the potty chair was really neat ... but since then
    he's decided that he'd rather use it as a regular chair.  Sigh.  Well,
    we're just going to let him tell us when he's ready.  As someone noted
    before - you've never seen a kid going to school in diapers!  Besides
    that, I find it MUCH easier to train in the summer, when an accident is
    a quick pair of shorts instead of pants and socks (and shoes!) etc etc.
    
    He hasn't even hit the stage where the diaper bothers him, or it
    bothers him to have a messy diaper, so I think we're still a ways off.
    
    Keep on keeping on!
    

Potty training success report! Sam, the big boy, has been using
the potty for all his physical discharges. Now, he wants to use
mom and dad's bath room and... he fell in. Judy said it took all
she had to keep from breaking out in giggles.

sigh, he's so grown up!

calvin

RE:            <<< Note 50.82 by CAPNET::CROWTHER "Maxine 276-8226" >>>

>>    Please don't use food as a reward.  Try stickers - they worked for both
>>    of ours.  

Why shouldn't you use food as a reward?  I read an interview in People magazine
with a child psychologist (several years ago) and I distinctly remember she
said she used M&M's to potty train her children.  I remember thinking "I'm
gonna do that too, when I have kids" and I did.

� �ori �

re: .85

A certain school of thought believes that weight problems later in life
are caused by emotional attachments to food, and that giving children
or yourself food as a reward for good behavior contributes to this 
unhealthy attitude.  I don't know whether I agree with that or not.  
I used M&M's to teach Kat to count -- she got to eat as many as she
could count -- and it doesn't seem to have affected her attitude 
towards food. 

--bonnie

    I also used food as a reward for potty training, with no ill affects,
    on three of my four children.  The fourth is yet to be trained.
    
    I think you have to use food as a reward often and consistently to have
    it turn into a "problem".  To use it simply to acknowledge your child's
    good behavior at the toilet, or elsewhere, is not in my mind a case of
    turning M&Ms or Hershey Kisses (yum) into the ultimate bribe, to be
    craved by your kid at every waking moment, turning him into a fat
    little porker who eats only junk food.
    
    A little common sense is in order here ;-}
    
    

    re: .85
    
    .86 stated it well.  Certainly I don't mean NEVER use food as a reward
    just don't get into the habit, and don't do it automatically.  Think
    about other things your child might like as a reward - stickers, books,
    etc. 
    

    Another reason not to use food as a reward is anorexia/bulemia.
    If others consistently offer food as a reward, the child can view
    eating as a way that her/his environment is controlled.  Later, as
    an adolescent she/he can decide to use that control in an unhealthy
    way.

    I used M&Ms to teach counting like --bonnie did and have had *no*
    affer effects from it. Too often we take an extreme case or cases
    and then use that as a reason to ban a practice at all.
    
    Bonnie J

    Just as an aside to this, we bought, and barely used an insert ring
    that sits on top of the toilet, it worked fairly well on the original
    padded toilet seat as well as the current oak wood seat.  We also
    bought and might have used twice the "BabyLoo" brand a stepstook seat
    insert combo.  
    
    Bottom line, he never used a potty seat, we were given one of those
    kind that make music when he "goes", it's still brand new in the box,
    and never seemed too attached to the babyloo or plastic adapter.
    
    A serious offer....if anyone want any of the above let me know.
    
    Lyn
    

    Did anyone's kid ever go through the stage when s/he sat on the
    potty fully clothed?  James will announce, "I have to go pee,"
    and he'll sit on the potty fully clothed for a few minutes.  I've
    tried to explain to him that you sit on it bare-bottomed, but
    it doesn't seem to make any impression.
    
    Also, did anyone use the urine guard that comes with the potty,
    or did you take it off?  I wonder if James doesn't like it, and
    that's why he's reluctant to use the potty without diapers?
    
    Any thoughts out there?
    

    re: .92
    
    Ditch the urine guard.  I took it off for my son and taught him to
    point his penis down.  The plastic on the guard was rough, and he
    balked at it.
    
    I have a question for you parents out there.  I have a just turned 18
    month old who in the last few weeks has definately become aware of his
    bodily functions when they are happening/about to happen.  
    
    Anyway, last evening and this morning I heard the toilet seat go up and
    my oldest was with me so I ran to the bathroom to have the baby point
    to his pants and say "Poo...Poo".  So, I pulled his pants down and held
    him on the toilet, he didn't go but he strained some and passed some
    gas.  This morning he did the same thing but he had already gone in his
    pants by the time I got all his PJ's etc. off.  
    
    My question is should I just keep puting him on the toilet everytime he
    mentions it.  He is VERY young for this.  I don't want to ignore it
    really and shun him from the toilet, for fear that I will give him
    mixed messages later when I'm begin encouraging him to go.  
    
    Have any of you had a boy trained between 18 & 24months??  My oldest
    was trained quite easily at 2 1/2.
    
    Thanks much,
    Donna

    re: .93
    
    I look forward to replies to your questions.  I have a 17-month old
    who has been going (both pee and poop!) on the potty *some of the
    time* for about a month now.   His babysitter is actively pursuing
    this since all her kids "were trained by 18 months" (two were boys)
    
    Carol

    My sitter trained all 3 of her boys early - 2 by 18 months, the third
    by age 2. I've often heard, and know of friends', that girls sometimes
    train much earlier than boys.
    
    Ryan got very interested in peeing on everything in sight at 18 months
    so we bought a potty seat.  After peeing in it twice, he showed little
    interest.  He has, however, consistently done #2 in it since 21 months
    (he's now 2 1/2), and will not do it in his diaper unless absolute
    emergency.
    
    I'd say go with the interest level and don't force it. The Joshua potty
    book was a great favorite for a while in our house - now Ryan doesn't
    even read it anymore!
    
    As for the urine guard - I could never figure out which direction it
    was supposed to be facing (up or down) so it's never been attached. We
    just put a towel over his lap in case he aims out instead of down :-)
    

    I have no experience with potty training (Marc is only 16 mos.), so I
    have some basic questions for you potty-training experts:
    
    Do you have to let your kid watch you use the potty in order for
    them to figure out what to do?  
    
    What makes them get interested in the potty, especially if they
    don't see anyone else using it on a regular basis?  Do they get
    interested just by magic, the way they get interested in feeding
    themselves at some point, or do you have to encourage them?
    
    How do you know when they're "ready" to start?

    Based on my two kids, they're ready when they're ready.  When they
    start disliking their diapers.  When they're aware of being wet or
    messy.  We pretty much let them do as they wanted.  Of course both of
    them were trained 'late' as compared to 'average'.  We pushed Christopher 
    a little bit (mostly a lot of asking him), and he took right to it,
    done a month before he turned 3.  Jason was much more stubborn about
    it, only showed fleeting interest every now and then, and then
    suddenly, last Thursday morning, he wouldn't LET me put a diaper on
    him, and we haven't looked back since.  He was just plain READY.  Now,
    he's 3 and a few weeks, so that may be late by your standards, but I
    think that we've gotten a lot less wet/messy clothes by letting HIM be
    the one to decide instead of US thinking it was time.
    
    Good Luck!

    
    I'm still in the process of training my 19mo. son.  He started by
    telling us that there were "poo-poo" or "pee-pee" in his diaper at 
    17mo.  Then we started having him watch daddy or his brother 5yrs. 
    go to the bathroom and he was quite amazed.  One day he told me he
    had poo poo's so I laid him down to change him and the diaper was
    clean, so he got up and ran into the bathroom wanting to go!  Till
    today he is doing great & I encourage him by letting him know how
    much of a good boy he is and how proud I am!  I will add 1 thing 
    that he looks forward to doing daily, is when he does #2 in the 
    toilet he waves bye, bye as we flush!!  
    
    /nadine
     

    I have a 2.5 yr old. (3 in June) we are trying to potty train him.  
    We are having a difficult time.  At the babysitters he does fairly 
    well.  Sometimes he is dry all day long.  But he does do as well for
    us.
    
    I know all kids are different and this is a difficult time for them as
    well as for the parents.  
    
    I bought the book "Once upon a potty."  I was hoping it would work
    because the little boy in the book is named Joshua and that is what my
    sons name is.
    
    I give him stars on the calendar when he goes and we make a big deal. 
    The babysitter said that if he were dry for an entire day she would
    buy him some Mickey Mouse underwear.  She did.  
    
    When I try telling him that he needs to be a big boy and go on the
    potty and not in his diaper his reply is usually that he doesn't want
    to be a big boy, he doesn't like underwear.
    
    I am expecting my second child in August so if possible my goal is to
    have Josh trained by then. 
    
    Any helpful hints?
    
    Denise
      
    
    

Denise

We went through that with Sammy last winter (november). Finally,
he just started to go tell us about potty and we gave him a lot
of praise. If he was successful, we took him to the mall for a
choo-choo ride on the train.

They will start on their own time, you just have to supply the
incentive and praise.

Calvin

    Well - what about this one?  Stephen (will be three in June) is very
    interested in the potty - loves to sit/stand on the potty, loves to
    wipe, loves to take his diaper off, etc..... BUT, he hasn't gone at
    all - it's been a month now.  He sure does try - kinda of cute watching
    him, BUT he hasn't gone.  Are there any tricks?  He tries to "push it
    out", he has the patience to sit there for about five minutes off and
    on, but no results.  
    
    I am not too worried, figured when it happens he will be totally
    surprised and all the rest will be downhill, but I feel for the little
    guy.  PLUS, the toilet paper sure goes fast when he wipes 10 times,
    flushes, etc....  quite the game.  
    
    What we have tried - watching Daddy go, over and over, tried sprinkling
    warm water over his tee-tee, thinking that would activite things, tried
    "sessions" while running the bath water (sure works for me), have been
    really aware of when he usually goes potty (i.e. after dinner, etc.),
    but that's all that I know to try.  Any suggestions?
    
    

                     <<< Note 50.101 by GENRAL::MARZULLA >>>
                        -< HOW TO GET THINGS *GOING*? >-

>>>    warm water over his tee-tee,
    
TEE-TEE? Really, isn't the word penis?

sammy started to sit on the potty back last June. We hurriedly
bought a FP potty and he just played with it. He started to get
serious around mid September and were fully trained by December.
Most of it was by peer example at play school; his peers were
using the potty for all their bowel movements and urinating.

calvin

    Believe it or not, a friend of my son's has been doing all these
    things (i.e. everything but actually *going* in the potty) for
    the last YEAR! He's 3.5 and shows no interest at all in actually
    getting down to business. His parents find that pressuring him has 
    reverse results. Probably those old words of wisdom apply here --
    leave them alone and they'll do it when they're ready.
    
    Lucy
    

    I've only read the last 5 replies or so, which all seem to mention
    boys.  Is the general consensus that girls are easier to train then
    boys.
    
    My 25 month old Amanda is in here third week of no day time diapers. 
    Getting a diaper on her for bed is a drag.  She kicks and screams that
    she is a big girl and wears panties.  So I bought a package of HUGGIES
    (i think they're called) PULL UPS.  They are like a diaper, but you
    don't have to deal with the tapes, you can pull them up and down.  I
    told her that they are "night-night panties" and that worked for one
    week.  Last night when I told her let's get changed and to put on her
    "night-night panties" she picked it up and THREW it at me and told me
    they are not panties, it's a diaper!!!  They she screamed her head off
    when my husband layed her down and pried her panties off her and put on
    the pull ups.  As soon as he was done she tried to pull them off.
    
    Roberta

    I really believe that if kids think it is important to you, they won't
    do it. It has to be important to them to really matter. Saying that he
    doesn't want to be a big boy is a great indication of just that.
    
    Also consider that if you got him trained by June he could easily
    revert as soon as the baby arrives.  So maybe see if he's interested in
    pursuing this later.
    
    By the way, they often do things for the sitter that they won't do at
    home.... I see it with Ryan all the time! Like eating vegetables....
    

    I also wanted to train my first born before the arrival of the next
    baby.  But he wasn't interested and I couldn't force him to be.  He
    just wasn't aware enough of his body to really "know" when to go and
    couldnt' be bothered what with all the new changes happening, new room,
    new baby, etc.  
    
    I decided not to push at all and several months after my second child
    was born, my oldest decided he was ready, trained in one week's time
    with no nighttime diapers and no accidents!  He was also 3 years and
    one month old at the time!  But it was worth the wait!  Let your
    child lead the way on this one, it pays off..
    
    -Dorothy 

Chalk me up as one who wanted my first out of diapers by the time my 2nd
came along.  But when it was so close to the birth, I gave up on her because
I knew she would revert when the baby was born (she was going fine at daycare -
no accidents except maybe at nap time - but NEVER at home!).

To my surprise, the week the baby arrived, she wanted some extra attention,
so she stepped up her training!  The toilet had been one place she could get
our undivided attention - we would read and read and read to her, sing songs,
etc... while she sat on the potty (some things only a parent can do!).  So
she figured out that if she went to the potty often, she could get some
special attention!

Just when you think you have 'em figured out......

Kristen

    We had wanted to get Christopher trained before Jason came along, but
    Christopher had other ideas.  Then came the summer, and all of a sudden
    he seemed to want to differentiate from being a 'baby', and got out of
    diapers.  Nighttime without diapers (and being dry) took almost 3 more
    years, and then, just as with daytime, he just was READY one day.
    
    With Jason, he wasn't the SLIGHT bit interested in using the toilet. 
    Then one day he REFUSED to let me put a diaper on him, and he's done
    almost perfect (daytime only) ever since then.  He was just over 3,
    Christopher was 1 month before his 3rd b.day.
    
    Initially, Jason did MUCH better at daycare then at home, and we found
    out it was because the babysitter asks him about every 20-40 mins if he
    has to go potty.  At home we were never asking him.  Now I ask and he's
    perfect for me - hubby hasn't gotten into the habit yet and ends up
    with an occassional accident.  Try to see IF there's anything different
    between how you and your provider approach the situation.
    
    Good Luck!

    
    
    Our daughter, age 2.9, has just started in training pants.  So far,
    things look very promising, that is, only one accident the first
    day, and no accidents on day two.  Day three is today.  The problem
    is that she waits until her naptime diaper is on before she will do
    a BM.  Even if she has just sat on the potty just before the nap.
    
    I know from reading the other 108 replies to this topic that it
    is not unusual for bladder control to happen before bowel control.
    However, this seems to be a conscious effort on her part to wait for
    the diaper.  I'd call that control, rather than lack of control.
    
    When asked to try a BM on the potty, she says she *can't* do it.  We
    have not pressured her.  We just say, *OK, When you are ready to do
    it , you will.*  However, I am turning to you folks in the parenting
    community for any advice on getting through this little roadblock
    on the long and bumpy road to No More Diapers.   Thanks.

    re .109
    This isn't uncommon at all - I've heard of other kids too. She'll do it
    on the potty later when she's ready. Just praise her for doing it in
    the diaper and then letting you know so you can change it.
    

    .109
    
    My son did the same thing as your daughter, for three months. He had
    very few accidents in training pants, but would not use the potty
    for poops. Instead he'd request a diaper (which then got changed
    three minutes later). 
    
    Once in a while we'd ask him if he wouldn't like to use the potty 
    instead, but no, he insisted on a diaper. Oh well, we figured, why 
    push the issue when he's doing so well otherwise. Then one day he 
    decided to use the toilet, and has been doing so ever since. 
    
    Lucy

    Lucy,
      I admire your patience for keeping at it for 3 months before he
    decided to use the toilet for BMs.  It's been only 4 days and I 
    feel a lot of pressure to just go back to diapers and wait it out
    until she's ready to do both.  About six weeks ago we tried the 
    training pants for 3 day and had very little success, so we shelved
    the idea for a while.  This time, it's going so much better at least
    in the bladder control that I'd like to keep going with no looking
    back.  What helped you to stick with it?
    
      Potty training has got to be just about the toughest thing to teach
    a toddler.  Hope I'll be laughing about this someday in the future.
    
        --Marlene

    Marlene,
    
    Actually, we just did what was easiest for *us*. Having Daniel in 
    training pants all day (with one or two quick diapers for poop, 
    as needed) seemed like a vacation after 2.5 years of constant diapers! 
    Also, he was doing so well and was so pleased with himself that we 
    never considered going back to putting him in diapers all day. He 
    clearly was ready for bladder training.
    
    We deliberately did not try to teach him to poop in the toilet. We
    knew he understood the idea -- he just wasn't ready. Sure enough, 
    when he was ready, he made the switch in one day. 
    
    I really feel that if you try to teach them or push them before 
    they're ready, you just cause yourself and the child aggravation.
    It's easy to tell when they're ready - first, you ask them, then
    you watch the results. Good luck to you!
    
    Lucy

    
    Just thought I'd enter the following info that was in the paper.
    
    Some books that may be helpful with potty training:
    
       Annie's Potty  by Judith Casely
       Going to the Potty  by Fred Rogers
       Sam's Potty   by Barbro Lindgren
       Once Upon a Potty   by Alona Frankel
       Dry All Night  by Alison Mack  (aimed at bedwetting)
    
    All of the above are available at the Chelmsford Library.
    
    In addition, I also found:
       
       Your New Potty  by Joanna Cole.
    
    I liked Your New Potty because it had photos of real children learning
    about the potty.  I think that it appealed the most to my daughter for
    the same reason.
    
    

	Well, we may have set the record on this one.  Brian was urine 
	trained last summer at about 3 yrs 2 mos.  And it was a stuggle.
	We are now breathing hard on his 4th birthday (end of June) and 
	are 7 months from when he became dry all day, and he *still* won't 
	do his poops anywhere but in his diaper.  His control is perfect.
	And his will is iron.  	

	We try to keep the pressure off and the annoiance out of our 
	voices but it is getting increasingly difficult.  A few weeks
	ago he did his poop in the toilet and we had a celebration, 
	got him the Tonka Truck he had been lusting for, and thought
	now we have one of those stories that ends "and he never 
	looked back".  HA!  It was a one shot deal.  But not until
	he got himself good and constipated before he would let a
	himself go anywhere, even in a diaper.

	The poor kid is obviously in conflict about it.  Two short 
	examples.  The first is after Bob had yelled at Brian for some
	rather serious infraction of a house rule, Brian turned to him
	and screamed "I'm never gonna do a poop in the potty for YOU,
	Daddy!"   The second was last night when he told us he didn't 
	want to eat dinner because eating helps you grow and he 
	doesn't want to be a big boy.

	The situation is further complicated because he cannot stay 
	dry at night yet so he needs his diapers for that, so we can't	
	go cold turkey, either.
	
	I know we should just lay back, but it is soooooo hard.
	Norma	

Norma, it really sounds like a control issue now.  I would just drop the
subject with him altogether (and if he brings it up, just sound as nonchalant
about it as you can), while at the same time giving him other things to control
(clothes, food, etc). 

This must be very hard on you.  Hang in there.

        Carol

    I have a friend going through a similar struggle with her son who
    turned 3 in November. Although he has good control of both, he refuses
    to use anything but the diaper. Finally in desperation they were
    planning to go "cold turkey" = no diaper at all during the day. Their
    pedi wisely suggested that they simply implement regular potty times
    during the day- no expectations of doing anything, just time to
    sit there, rather than take away the diaper.
    
    At well over 3, it seems to be more of a mental control issue than much
    earlier.  .115 sounds similar.
    

    I liked Carol's suggestion in .116 to give him other things to
    control. That seems really insightful -- if control is the issue,
    it seems like that would help him feel like he's the boss (within
    reason, of course) of *some* of his life.
    
    This came to mind yesterday when I went home to find my 3-yr-old
    in orange and black jams-style shorts; a blue, yellow and red
    solar system T-shirt; pink knee socks; and red and blue sneakers.
    Daniel had chosen his own outfit and put most of it on by himself.
    After a while I decided his self-determination was worth the clashing
    colors...I credit my husband with not imposing "good taste" on him.
    
    Lucy 

    The "Wait till I have a diaper on" syndrom is very popular amoung
    little folks.
    
    Robby would only tolerate the diaper for the five minutes after nap,
    when he would go, then demand an immediate change.  It was as easy as
    on the potty, almost (for us)...we waited it out and it did pass.
    
    Sue

    I'm not sure I understand a few back, you said you child is dry during
    the day, but refuses diapers-even the pull ups, at night.  Would our
    method work for you?  I bought the terry training pants a Raschelle's
    the ones with the plastic liner and put those on him for nightime. At
    first I put either these or just a regular pair of plastic pants over
    the thick white training pants.  But what I can't seem to figure out is
    if you child is dry at night?  If they'r dry at night what's the issue?
    If it's that big of a deal why not just put the thick training pants on
    and let them sleep on a waterproof sheet for the night.  Just my way
    of looking at it.
    
    Lyn

    Matt at 3 1/2 years old uses the toilet during the day for all
    functions.  At night we have tried no diaper (about 2/3 of the time
    he has wet his bed by morning) the remaining 1/3 he is dry. We have
    not been making an issue of wet diapers or wet bed in the AM.  
    We just put him in a diaper at night and if its wet in the AM
    'fine' and if its not that better.
    My question: Should we put him in the diaper automatically every
    night?  In the AM he takes the diaper off and goes to the toilet him
    self.  If we leave the diaper off... usually he has a wed bet in the
    AM.
    
    Jeff

    My daughter (Amanda) can go for a couple of days waking up dry and then
    wet the next.  The reason I put the "pull ups" on her, is I can not see
    adding to the laundry pile (any larger and it will take over the room).
    
    I don't find it to be a big deal, except when she gets really
    distressed about being a "big girl" and not wanting anything that
    resembles a diaper.
    
    Once she goes for two whole weeks waking up dry I will not bother with
    the "pull ups", but until then NO MORE LAUNDRY.  We did the same with
    my older daughter (except with diapers, pull ups weren't around) and
    once she hit that two weeks of dryness, she went to bed with just
    panties and we have only had two accidents in two years.
    
    Roberta

    For what it's worth ....
    
    Christopher (almost 6) has been going back and forth with being dry and
    then wet and they dry, weeks of each at a time.  He just had his
    physical, and his Dr. said that this was not that uncommon, and not to
    be surprised if it lasted for a few more years.  He said that the
    IMPORTANT thing was that he COULD be dry - ie he wasn't swimming every
    night.  As far as the rest of it goes - it's all a matter of maturity
    for each individual child.
    
    RE: Pull-ups .... I haven't tried them, but we have tried the training
    pants w/ terri-cloth, and they hold almost everything, and are simply
    viewed as nighttime underpants - definitely gets rid of the feeling of
    wearing a diaper.
    
    GOOD LUCK!
    Patty

    I thought I put this in here somewhere, and if it's a repeat my
    apologies.....
    
    A former coworker has two boys, and had repeatidly had bed wetting
    problems.  She solved the problem by putting flannel sheets on the
    beds.  The way it was explained to me is that with cotton sheets the
    "male" exposed parts get cold and cause bed wetting.  The flannel
    sheets keep those "parts" warmer and has cured her bed wetting
    problems.  Just passing this one, take it FWIW.
    
    I've tried it with similar success, not sure how or if it would work
    with girls.
    
    The biggest thing we've learned by dealing with AJ's toiletiing problem
    psycologist is to NOT make a big deal of a wet or soiled underwear, no
    matter what time of the day it is.  Yes I admit there have been times
    when I've had to leave the room so as to no show my disapproval to his
    soiled or wet underwear, but it seems to have had a positive effect on
    him.  We now praise him quite heartily for being dry, especially
    overnight.
    
    Lyn

    Yet another question about potty training.
    
    Stephanie is 23 months.  We bought a potty when she was 18 months.  She 
    would go in and sit on it clothed, then sit on it bare bottomed, but
    with no results.  I think she thought it was a good game.  A few months
    ago, she announced that she had to use the potty, and actually
    produced!  Twice in a row!! We praised her up and down! Wh started
    asking her if she had to use the potty, but asking seemed to annoy her
    so we've stopped.  I figured when she's ready she'll let us know.
    
    Lately, we've got a new behavior that is so annoying, I'm looking for
    advice.  She announces that she needs to use the potty (although, I
    think this is immediately after urination), goes into the bathroom, 
    has her diaper removed, then immediately pulls up her pants, says 
    "All done" and wants to go off on her merry way without a diaper.
    Any attempt to put on a diaper results in a full-blown fit, not to
    mention a frazzled set of parents.  Is this the time to start training
    pants?  She's only had 3 successful episodes on the potty, and none
    with bowell movements.  I really don't want to push the kid before
    she's ready, but I don't need these diaper tantrums either.  Anybody
    else been through this?
    
    					Mair
    
    

    Just thought I'd let you all know that Amanda, now 27 months is
    "totally" trained.  She has not had a day of night time accident in 3
    weeks.  The only gripe I have now, is when ever someone goes into the
    bathroom or even mentions the room, she has to go.  It really irrates
    my husband when he specifically ask her if she has to go and then
    preceeds to go take his shower and then she starts pounding on the
    door.
    
    Oh the joys of parenting...
    Roberta

Robertta, wait until she gets to the point where she has to go in 
EVERY restaurant you eat in even if she just went at home!

Liz

>Robertta, wait until she gets to the point where she has to go in 
>EVERY restaurant you eat in even if she just went at home!

Or in the car on the highway, two minutes after you passed the rest stop and 
asked her if she needed to.

And even more fun than restaurants (which have public restrooms) is when she 
needs to go in a place that does NOT have a public restroom, my favorite being 
the grocery store.

Clay

    My daughter used to have to use all the stalls, one at a time!
    If she saw three stalls, sure enough, no matter how long dinner
    or shopping trip took, we had to go three SEPARATE times and each
    time we used a different stall.
    
    Grammie didn't know about this quirk until she took Sarah to a
    church concert.  The Church Ladies' Room has 3 stalls.  The story
    was the hit of the church community for weeks.
    
    Diana
    
    P.S. They do grow out of it ;^)

    re: a couple back...how come every supermarket seems to keep the
    restrooms upstairs, through the bakery, or some obscure section of the
    store, tucked somewhere behind the lockers, in the employee's break
    area.  I swear it's done just to make you ask yourself, do I really
    have to got *that bad*???
    
    Lyn
    (just a pet peeve!)

    re. using every stall at every rest stop/restaurant
    
    This is funny!  My younger sister was the same way.  My Dad used to say
    she was like a male dog marking his territory...
    
    Now that she's 31, I have yet to see this behavior repeat itself : )
    
    Sarah
    

    re .130, inconvenient restrooms
    
    While some business are required to provide restrooms, they don't
    generally want to: it means lost selling space, money spent cleaning,
    liability exposure (what if a customer should get injured...), and
    a fair number of non-customers wandering in just to use the toilet.
    It also means that their employees have to share a toilet with the
    general public, which the employees don't like (would you want to?).
    
    The easiest way to meet the law but not suffer the consequences is
    to make the restroom difficult to get to and not easy to find.  Some
    department stores, for example, will put the men's restroom in the
    women's clothing area and vice versa.
    
    In the old days, when it cost a dime, the toilets could be a profit
    center, and were not resented by the stores as much.  Civil liberties
    people won court battles against the charge-toilets, and give us the
    result you complain about.
    
    			-John Bishop

    
    My son, Jason (20months), has woken up dry four out of the last
    five days.   The first time he woke up dry I thought something was
    wrong with him; like he couldn't go.   Now, I'm beginning to wonder...
    He will go, either in his diaper or on the potty, if I ask him to
    after he wakes up.
    
    Some background: he has been potty-training at his daycare for about
    4 months.  The training has primarily consisted of sitting on the
    potty every 1/2 to one hour and having him go (both pee and poop).
    I do not follow through with this on the weekend, because frankly,
    I think it's too much of a hassle!  I've kinda been waiting until
    he gets to the point of asking to go.
    
    So, what do you think?   Is he developing night-time control at what
    I consider to be a relatively early age?   Am I making a big mistake
    by not following through with the training on the weekend?   Should
    I just ignore it until he's completely ready?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Carol

    .133 -- It depends on how eager you are to have your son potty trained. 
    Personally, I've found 20 months to be awfully young for a child to be
    potty trained.  It never happened that young with any of my three. 
    Yet, it does happen because I've seen toddlers at daycare that young
    who are indeed potty trained.
    
    My youngest is almost 21 months and I'd LOVE to have him potty trained. 
    But from my own experience with my other three I haven't made any effrt
    because they trained at about three years of age.
    
    If he's making the effort at daycare I'd say go for it and try to
    continue the training at home.  You may luck out, and have an early
    trained child!  But remember, nightitme diapers are usually the last to
    go!  Good Luck!
    
    

    I think each child is different, and you just have to try
    potty-training at different time in their lives, they know when they're
    ready.
    
    My son is 17 months and has been going BM every couple of days on the 
    potty for the past 2 months.  The last 2 weeks everytime he has to go
    BM he says Potty - we bring him to the potty and he always goes.
    We don't push him, we definitely praise him (lots of clapping).
    
    He does not pee on the potty, just not ready yet. 
    
    My problem is this, he doesn't like wearing his diaper (constantly tries 
    to take it off).  Should I try training pants and see if thats any
    better, or what about the NEW disposable training pants (expensive).
    
    I'm not trying to push him, just make him more comfortable while
    learning.          
    

    We are now potty-training James, and so far he's doing OK with
    controlling his pee...can't seem to get the hang of bowel movements,
    however.  Yesterday, he pooped himself, and promptly started
    playing in it.  This was at the sitter's.  Has anyone experienced
    this?  Is it OK for him to wear a diaper still for naps?  He's been
    dry at night three times already this week.  

    
    	Yes, we had one case of Steven taking his nappy off and smearing
    the contents round his room (I think he'd just turned 2)! As a one off
    it's probably nothing to worry about, just don't react too much. I
    believe Penelope Leach mentions this in one of her books.
    	At least James wasn't eating it, which is also quite common!!
    
    		Ian G. 

    My mother inlaw still, today, tells stories of how several of her
    children "painted" walls and cribs with the stuff at small children.
    
    Fortunate for us our son didn't inherit this trait.
    
    The one thing we have learned it to keep calm, no matter how difficult
    it is, and just proceed to clean up the mess that's been made in a very
    matter of fact way, and being very careful not to chastise the child
    for doing it.
    
    This too will pass!!
    Lyn

    David (he will be 2 in December) has been using his potty seat for
    about 1 month, doing VERY well when he is naked from the waist down.
    However, as soon as I put training pants on him, he seems to forget and
    pees in them!  I know it's early for a little boy, and I don't push
    him, but is this common?  I guess he assumes it's a diaper and it's OK.
    Yesterday he was busily playing, jumped up, grabbed himself, and raced
    for the bathroom yelling "Pee pee potty!".  He didn't quite get there
    in time, half hit the floor as he was straddling the seat, half went
    into the little bowl.  At least I know he can tell "before" he has to
    go. I think he's doing great!  His greatest pleasure is emptying the
    bowl and flushing the toilet all by himself.  Last week he managed to
    splash the contents all over me, making me extremely late for work (I
    had to seek out and iron a new outfit).  His comment? "Uh oh, mess
    Mommy"  (to say the least! : )  Anyway, is it easier for them when they
    are unclothed to tell if they have to go? It's getting a little chilly 
    to be running around half-naked!
    Sarah

Sarah:

Cory (just turned 2) sounds alot like David.  During the summer, he was in his
"run naked" stage and was doing really well on the potty.  He's also good at
telling me during bathtime that he wants to use the potty.

But put the diaper on him and he doesn't seem to notice the sensation so much.
My doctor said that's typical.

Cory also loves to empty the bowl of the potty & flush.  Actually, I'm having
a hard time convincing him that he can't just walk into the bathroom at any
time and flush the toilet without using it first.  The other morning he sat
on the "big potty" in my bathroom while I was getting dressed.  Several minutes
passed with no results, but he decided he had "used" the potty and it was time
to flush.  Hard to argue with the logic of a two-year old !


- Terry

    Terry,
    Sorry, but the words "logic" and "2-year old" don't belong in the same
    sentence!  This morning I had a running battle with David for about 2
    minutes on why I wouldn't use "his" potty! "No, mama, pee potty HERE"
    and an emphatic little finger pointing at the potty seat : )  Thanks
    for relating your story about Cory.  It does sound like they are right
    in parallel!
    Sarah
    

    
    
       Matthew is closing in on his third birthday in February and I am 
     starting to be concerned about potty training him.  Three years old
      seems to be a magic number as far as this goes - many people ask
      me if he's trained yet and I am sometimes embarrassed to say no -
      in some respects I don't even think he's close.  For the last 5 or
      6 months, he's been introduced to the "potty" and when prompted,
      will "pee" on demand in his potty if he is told ahead of time that
      he will receive some sort of reward for this.  He has absolutely
      no desire to stop wearing diapers and will not do bowel movements
      anywhere near the potty.  I'm really afraid of keeping his
      diaper off for long periods for fear of frequent accidents, but
      am not sure if this is the proper approach.  We have tried using
      Huggies pullups - telling him this is not a diaper and that he 
      shouldn't pee in them, but he does anyway - they probably feel 
      just like a diaper to him.  I would like to buy him some sort
      of childrens book about the Potty.  Does anyone have any suggestions
      about the proper way of training him and any good booksfor him.
    
      Thanks, Lorain
    
    

    I think the most important thing here for Matthew is Don't Push too
    hard, he'll do it when he's ready.
    
    Check if you have a Kmart near you, I saw a book in the Dr Seuss
    section about a boy who goes to the potty all by himself.  I'll write
    down the title the next time I go the the one near me. (it's a kid's
    book written for them in their terms)
    
    Lyn

    I second the potty book, though I can't remember the title either -
    Alex has the girl's version where the character is named Priscilla, I
    believe; the boy is Jason, maybe?
    
    Anyway, try to remember what Dave Barry, syndicated humorist, says
    about waiting it out: most college students--and many congressmen--are 
    potty trained!
    
    Leslie

    
    Congressman, maybe.  Senators, well that may be a different story...
    some of them definitely can't keep it in their pants...  8-)
    
    

    Each Tuesday, The Boston Herald has a column in the Living pages
    by Dr. Brazelton.  Yesterday's column was devoting to "Potty
    Training".  I thought the column gave some good ideas on 
    potty training, some that I hadn't previously considered or
    heard about.
    
    Linda (NOT looking forward to potty training!)

    This is in here somewhere ..... both my boys were ~3 when they were
    trained, and it was really just when THEY were ready.  With Chris is
    was a month before he turned 3.  With Jason, he woke up one morning
    (2-3 mos after 3 yrs), and **REFUSED** to let us put a diaper on him.
    And he had previously showed little or no interest in using the potty.
    
    Based on my experiences, I'd say to drop the whole thing till HE is
    interested in it.  Also, my pedi said that there are definitive stages
    the kids go through.  One of which is 'food manipulation'.  Does he
    give you a hard time about eating what you want him to?  She told me
    that until Jason was more relaxed about 'meal control', and saw food as
    nourishment as opposed to a control mechanism, that he would really
    struggle with potty training, so to just WAIT until he was more
    comfortable w/ the eating.  As I said, he trained himself basically,
    but it did sort of coincide with when he started eating normal.

    Marc, my 3 and half year old is finally on the right track (20 stars on
    the calendar in a row!). What a long haul. He has been urinating where
    he should for about a year. The other was a very different story...
    
    About a year and a half ago we starting using pullups instead of
    diapers - he conquered the urinating part real quick and has remained
    dry at night since.
    
    A year ago - training underwear, at first no control at all - just a
    "I'm poopy"
    
    6 months ago, awareness! started going under the table, in a corner
    between the wall and chair, outdoors, into a closet (!), then a "I'm poopy"
    
    5 months ago - You're a big boy now - rule is you must use the toilet -
    "OK, Dad". No change.
    
    Then we tried:
    
    No favorite TV program, no M&Ms, and "how will we take you to <insert -
    story time at the library, Walt Disney World, whatever>?"
    
    No change.
    
    Then we started asking him to do more of the clean-up. One day he said
    "this is gross". I said bingo - it is, and think of the other things we
    could be doing instead of cleaning up!
    
    We then said "you will get a star on the calendar for each day you
    don't poop in your underwear". Bought him "real big boy" underwear
    (just like Dads, and he picked out ones with Mario Brothers on them) to
    use after he had learned.
    And, so many stars equals a special treat of his choice.
    
    About a week later he went into the bathroom, without a word to us,
    and came out saying - "I pooped on the toilet"
    
    Much celebrating, dancing, hugging, calls to Grammy and Grampie and
    Nanna (I love my parents ability to handle these calls).
    
    It's now over. I have a very happy little boy, who is now into a brand
    new stage of independence, and challenge to his parents.
    
    In retrospect, I think the involvement/responsibility/impact of him
    cleaning up was the trick. We tried the restriction of privileges after
    a particular bad streak of multiple messes in a day/long weekend
    with friends/ever-growing interest on the part of grandparents on lack
    of progress - and that technique did not work for Marc.
    
    Some would no doubt say we were too lenient, my parents would! But, I
    guess, we just thought he would learn when he was good and ready to,
    and we would be patient. I'm real glad it's over though!
    
    JR
    
                                                     

    Michael just turned 2 in January.  We haven't seen any indication that
    he's ready for potty training (e.g. able to forecast when it's going to
    happen, able to hold it for short periods, etc.), and haven't done
    anything toward beginning to train him.  He has had a potty chair in
    his bathroom for several months now, put there mainly so he'd be used
    to seeing it around.
    
    He figured out a while ago what his potty chair is for.  When he sees
    Mom or Dad on the john, he points and says "potty."  Lately, when he's
    undressed to get into the bathtub, he *insists* on sitting on the
    potty.  And sitting there until something happens.  This could be 10
    minutes or it could be thirty.  Often when he urinates, he doesn't even
    realize it's happened until we point it out, and then he says "uh oh,
    mess."  Apparently he thinks what he just did is bad.  Or something.
    
    Because of the potty time, bathtime has gone from 20-30 minutes to
    sometimes an hour.  This is getting ridiculous.  We aren't even
    interested in potty training him yet.
    
    Question:  How should we handle this?  Give him a few minutes on the
    potty and then insist that he get in the tub (this guarantees a
    tantrum)?  Let him sit there and bring in the evening paper while we
    wait?  Hide the potty and don't let him use it at all?
    
    Steve

    I guess I don't see it as a problem as such.  Usually half the problems
    of potty training come from getting the kids to sit still on the
    toilet-period!  He is sitting, and that's great.
    
    From our point of view, bath time really does take a half hour between
    potty time, teeth brushing, and bath (with or without play time).  I
    don't consider that to be an unreasonable amount of time.
    
    Would he understand the concept of a timer?  Set a cake timer for some
    reasonable amount of time, say 10 minutes, to sit on the toilet.  When
    the time dings, then it's time for a bath.  You can choose to set or
    not set the timer to limit play time in the bathtub.
    
    We usually do bathroom time before dinner.  We find because he is
    hungry that he really wants to get through the bath time to eat.
    
    Does this help?
    Lyn

    RE: .-1
    
    > From our point of view, bath time really does take a half hour between
    > potty time, teeth brushing, and bath (with or without play time).  I
    > don't consider that to be an unreasonable amount of time.
    
    I agree.  But we've recently gone from about a half hour to an hour or
    more, and that's too long for our taste.
    
    We put Michael in the tub before dinner tonight, and there was a big
    difference in his attitude.  He was in and out without all the fuss,
    and the total time was much shorter.  And, it was nice not to have to
    mess with the bath after dinner.
    
    Our inclination is to let him do his potty thing since it seems to be
    important to him.  Maybe we'll even get him out of diapers someday ... 
    Sigh ...
    
    Thanks for the idea of bath-before-dinner!
    
    Steve

    Get the training book "Once Upon a Potty" which has Joshua for boys -
    it would reinforce your current efforts, and you could adlib the
    story to discuss that something doesn't happen every time you sit on
    the potty..... 
    
    BTW, this was also the age that we started NOT doing a bath every night
    so that there was more time for other things such as reading and
    singing, without lengthening the overall bedtime routine. Else, you
    could all be up til midnight!!
    Hard to believe that Michael is 2 already! I can remember your notes
    when you first brought him home!
    

    
    
    This might sound a bit...I don't know...much.
    
    I potty trained my boys at 2.3 months and was done at 2.6 months.
    This is how I knew they were ready.  When they needed to have a BM
    they would go off in a corner of the house that was private.  
    Then they would re-join us when they were done.  
    
                                                     

    
    	perhaps you mean 2.3  and 2.6 *years*? We should all be so lucky to
    have toilet training over by the third month ;-)
    
    				Wendy

    Hi,
    
    My daughter Christina has been out of diapers for the last month - day
    and night.   She does very well most of the time, but refuses to use
    the toilet - only her potty.  If you even try to put her on it she
    stiffens up and protest loudly.  Does anybody have suggestions on how
    to speed up the transition from potty to toilet?  We are getting a
    little tired of lugging the potty chair around....
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jane Marie
    
    

    I had the same problem with Stephanie.  She uses a regular toilet at
    school and when we're out of the house (anywhere we go - grocery store,
    restuarant, etc.  we have to try them all!).  But at home, she insisted
    that she had to use the potty.
    
    I was also tired of it.  So, one day, I told her she was big enough and
    that it was time to put the potty away (like the high chair, the crib,
    etc.).  We put it away together, and she hasn't asked for it since.  I
    guess it was just a matter of out of sight, out of mind.  I couldn't
    believe it was that easy!  Maybe this will work for you, too.
    
    					Mair
    

    My daughter was afraid of the larger hole of a regular toilet so I
    bought her a seat that fit on the toliet.  Once she became more
    confident she wouln't fall in we took it off.
    
    Angie