Conference moira::parenting

    I think the family across the road from us wanted to keep going until
    they got a girl.  They now have 8 sons (no daughters).  Since the
    youngest is now 10, (and the oldest is about 25), I think they've finally
    given up.

    
>    She sees little difference between 3 and 4 kids 

    Did you see a difference between 2 and 3 kids?

    they dont call it a 'power play' in hockey for nothing!

    the only way I could relate to 'little difference' between
    3 and 4 is to view anything over 2 as 'too many'.

    We've got 4 kids and dearly love'm all.  But its a big difference.
    bob

    
    This is JMHO, the "little difference" may mean in the long
    run - a bigger family vehicle needed, a later retirement or
    smaller retirement savings, a bigger debt if college is in 
    the plans, less resources (time, money, energy) available to 
    each kid and for other endeavors besides raising kids. It all 
    depends on what your life goal is. I can understand your wife's 
    point of view - the difference between taking care of 3 kids 
    and taking care of 4 kids is not that big if one is home raising
    kids anyways, in terms of changing a few more diapers a day 
    or adding one more dinner setting on the table. The "little
    difference" grows into "big difference" as the children get
    older. 
    
    
    
    Eva
    
    
    

    
    This is kind of off topic, but we hear and read much about
    the children (especially females) in Chinese orphanages.  
    Perhaps this would be an option for adding a baby woman 
    to the family without extending population (I know that
    wasn't your question).   
    
    On the topic of 3 vs. 4, I suppose when you're doing the 
    daily maintenance work for 3 kids, 4 doesn't seem like much 
    difference.   Also, maybe an even number makes for better
    playing/pairing off  (...three's a crowd).  
    
    However, as Eva points out, the cost of ownership 8^) can't 
    be ignored.   I know girls don't have to have pink clothes 
    and Barbie dolls but realistically I think that they do.  
    You don't have much hand-me-down (clothing, toys, sports
    equipment, etc) potential if you do end up with a girl.
    
    cj/   

    First, I see a problem with a perception that you are being selfish
    because "[you] have [your] three boys." I have a real problem with His
    & Hers kids.
    
    Before I got pregnant, I wanted a son and I wanted a daughter. For me.
    By that time, I knew that, barring twins, I would have only one child.
    When I knew I was having a boy, I was disappointed that I would not
    have a daughter. And I was overjoyed that I would have a son. Not for
    my husband's sake or my father's sake or my father-in-law's sake, for
    _my_ sake.
    
    I do not think it is selfish to want to stop at three children, either.
    If two was what you wanted and three was your absolute kid-max, then I
    don't think you are selfish at all.
    
      Annie

    Well everyone thought "I" was crazy! I kept hearing "you're going to
    have another one?" But I didn't care. I had 3 girls and told my
    husband that I wanted to try for a boy again. So it's 50/50. So what.
    I kept saying there won't be much difference in raising 3 as opposed
    to 4. And if we have to give up a little later in life, then that's
    ok by me.  The love of my family is more important.  The I would
    hear from people who had 8 or 9 kids and they were so close and 
    happy. And not starving either!  So we decided to go ahead with it
    and guess what.......... I'm having a boy! Just found out on the 2nd.
    If I didn't have to deal with backpain, nausea, fatigue ... I would
    have lots more.  My mother had 6 and we were happy.  My husband's
    family is only 2. Him and his sister and he wished there were more.
    
    Just my 2 cents
    Rose

   The family car was a real issue for me ... we had a Tempo for a while
   and after we had our 4th child, we realized very quickly that the
   Tempo didn't cut it - 6 people (3 in car seats at that point), and 5
   seat belts was not a good match.  We needed to go for something that
   could safely seat 6 people - we ended up with a minivan, but there are
   other large vehicles that will work.
   
   That was probably the largest change I personally had to deal with
   going from 3 to 4 kids.... but the other concerns are equally valid
   regarding finances, retirement, time, etc.
   
   
   On the flip side of that boy/girl thing... we had 3 girls, then a boy.
   This was not an effort to have a son... really!  I was delighted with
   our three girls and we were convinced that #4 was a girl as well - and
   I was thrilled with the idea.  It was a surprise when #4 was a boy,
   actually.  I am equally delighted with Philip, but its still a little
   strange when folks say..
   
        "So, you got your son finally."
   
   Its difficult sometimes to keep myself from saying, in their face..
   
        "So... what's your point?!"
   
   But that's a little pet peeve for me... I truly didn't care whether I
   had a son or not, buy everybody else seemed to think I should have.
   
   Anyway go with your heart... you will do what is right for *your*
   family as long as its done with love, and with open communication...
   
   $.02
   
   - Tom

I have a son and a daughter, and people would tell me, "How nice, you have one
of each."  It would be nice if they were two girls or two boys, also.  I come
from a family of two boys, my wife comes from a family of two girls, and
neither of us cared particularly whether or not we duplicated our own familiar
environment.  I know of a family that has five girls because they wanted a boy
and kept trying, and I wonder if the youngest girl thinks that if any of her
sisters had been a boy, she wouldn't exist.

IMHO, have another child because you want to have another child, not because
there is something wrong with the sex of your other children.

						Brian

>    This is kind of off topic, but we hear and read much about
>    the children (especially females) in Chinese orphanages.  
>    Perhaps this would be an option for adding a baby woman 
>    to the family without extending population (I know that
>    wasn't your question).   

Overseas adoptions aren't cheap.  Some countries won't consider
fertile couples, or couples who already have children.  I don't know
China's policy on such matters.

Having a[nother] child needs to be a mutual decision
and neither of you are right or wrong (or selfish
or unselfish) for wanting or not wanting that child.
Period.  

What's hardest about the decision is that there is
no compromise.  You either have another one or you
don't.  It might help if you realize that your wife 
will need to grieve the loss of your 4th child -- it
exists in her mind even if it never had a physical
reality.

Hope this was insightful...

- Deb B.

    
    We had a boy first and then a girl. When I was pregnant with my second I
    was truly hoping for a girl. I'd love the baby no matter what but with
    all my heart I hoped for a girl. I know that's not totally pc, but
    that's how I feel. I never thought I'd feel so strongly about it and
    don't quite understand why I do. I know the most important thing is
    to have a healthy baby. I think I might have tried one more time if
    my 2nd had been a boy but that would have been it.
    
    It's hard when one of you wants more and the other doesn't. My husband
    thought just one was fine for quite a while. But after we had our 2nd
    he can't imagine life without her. My girlfriend just had her 4th,
    and even though it was unplanned her whole family is very happy. 
    It's a tough compromise because it's such a big thing and if you both
    feel strongly about it there's not much middle ground.Either you do it or
    you don't. I can relate to how much a woman might want a daughter
    because I've been there. I don't think there'd be that much more work
    between having 3 or 4. But then again we've decided to stop at 2 so
    I know that there is a difference.
    
                   good luck with you decision,
    
                       Barbara
    

    The other thing to consider (like you don't have enough to do already)
    is how you/your wife felt after the most recent birth.  In our case, we
    have been blessed with a son and a daughter, and both are normal,
    healthy and perfect.  I think everyone in this notes file knows how I
    suffered from post-partum depression after our daughter was born, and
    that, plus our ages (40+), plus a lot of other things have weighed into
    our decision not to have any more children.  I will be candid and say
    that in a way, when I was pregnant with Holly, I wanted another boy.  I
    doubted my ability to mother a daughter (Still do).  But we are making
    a go of it!  I can't imagine life without either of my kids now. 
    Whether we had had one of each, or "two of a kind," either gender, it
    wouldn't make any difference to me.  They are my kids, I love them
    dearly, and even though we have our days, I wouldn't trade 'em for
    anything.
    
    The bottom line is, be honest and tactful with each other.  Examine all
    your reasons, weigh all the factors, etc., etc., then do what is right
    for YOU and YOUR FAMILY.  That's all that counts.  God bless you both.
    
    

    My husband and I just had our second child.  We have a 7 year old boy,
    and now a 4 month old baby.  We were very happy with just the first
    child, and had no aspirations toward enlarging the family.  This last
    pregnancy was very much unplanned.  However, when we discovered I was
    pregnant, both Fred and I had our hearts set upon having a little girl,
    and felt we'd be most disappointed if it didn't turn out that way.  But
    we also agreed up front that, no matter what happened (boy/girl,
    healthy/not healthy, full term/miscarriage), I would have tubal
    ligation when it was over.  We wanted no more than the two, period.
    
    As it turned out, I knew at 16 weeks (amnio time!) that we were having
    a second boy.  I wanted to cry for about 30 seconds, and then I was
    absolutely thrilled!  I already know some about raising boys, my
    older son would adore having a baby brother, and the ultrasound showed
    all systems were go (healthy baby growing in there...)!
    
    I still get a little pouty near the ruffled baby dresses, but my little
    Jake and big Joe are absolutely wonderful.  I think that a little girl
    would probly feel left out of the kinship I see developing between
    them.  It would be so hard to be both the baby of the family and the
    only girl, following three boys who are (I guess) pretty close in age
    and probably good buddies and better rivals!
    
    M.
      

    Count me as the happy mother of three girls.  We have no plans to "try
    for a boy" or any more kids for that matter.  If you see from the age
    spread of my kids, they were "accidents", although we love all three of
    them and wouldn't trade not having them for the world.  However, if I
    look at the forty-odd years I will have spent raising kids, it is
    pretty daunting.  Frank is very happy with all girls, and says that the
    idea of a boy now seems a bit ridiculous.  
    
    I have another friend who would like one more girl, but her chances are
    dwindling.  She is working more on mourning and acceptance of the fact
    that most likely she will not have another child of any sex.  (youngest
    daughter was killed in a tragic accident 3 years ago)  Seeing what she
    is going through to come to this point has been both painful and
    enlightening.  
    
    meg

    I have two boys 7 and 3.  When I was pregnant with my second, I was
    glad to hear that I was having another boy.  I'm very close to my boys. 
    They are great together.  
    
    Having older step children (2 girls and 1 boy), I feel I wouldn't have
    enough time to devote myself to a little girl (the hair bows, ironed
    dresses, the boyfriends, etc).
    
    Do what you feel is right....
    
    

    hair Bows?
    
    Dresses?
    
    On a girl?
    
    Some of use who have raised girls have no concept of what you are
    talking about.  
    
    Meg, lucky to get hers to hold still long enough to brush hair and wipe
    the gross dirt off.
    
    

    
    There is a book out there which gives a theory /methodology
    on having boys or girls..Don't personally know if its true
    but if you do decide to go for a 4th you might want to read
    it and try it.....
    
    I don't remember the exact title but I think it was "How to Determine
    the sex of your Baby"...
    
    The gist of it was to get a girl have lots of sex [ :) ] before
    ovalation and near ovalation but not right on ovalation..
    
    For a boy have no sex until right on ovaluation day and only once...
    
    Your wife would have to invest 3 months into determining her
    ovaluation with those home ovaluation kits...
    
    Just a thought!
    
    

    
    Actually there is a topic on that book/methodology...
    
    Note 123
    
    

    Re: hair bows etc...
    
    I felt the same way -- there was once a time when Shaina wanted to wear
    dresses all the time...now she's 8 and it's a struggle to get her into
    one for Friday night services!  Even sweats don't cut it anymore,
    suddenly she's more comfortable in blue jeans [and they HAVE to be
    blue!]  The hair is another issue -- since we've been reading the
    Little House on the Prairie books, all she wants are braids -- makes it
    easier to comb her long hair out, at least. 
    
    Problem is, Mom is indulging all of her frilly ideas on her daughter
    [after dressing a boy for 4 years in blue, green, gray, and brown --
    you get the idea!] -- and Shaina's got a closet full of really pretty
    clothes, and lots of nice hair gear...Oh well, someone else'll get to
    use these barely worn things some day!

    
    I have 3 boys.  When I was pregnant with the first, I didn't really
    care, but sorta wanted a girl.  When I was pregnant with the 2nd, I
    REALLY wanted a girl.  We found out "ahead", and that it was a boy, was
    fine.  A little disappointing, but logistically it made life 1000%
    easier (hand me downs, sharing rooms etc).  With my 3rd, I definitely
    did NOT want a girl.  I had my 2 boys, and saw how wonderfully they
    (usually) played together, and all the things they shared.  Having
    girls over 'as company' made it immediately obvious of things that
    would be 'uncomfortable' or should 'change' if there were a little girl
    in the house (boys just tend to be ruder than I would want a girl
    raised in - double standards, so shoot me).
    
    I was quite distressed at the thought of having a girl.  And yet I was
    still disappointed in a way, when I knew it was another boy.  I still
    go throug the girls' dept and look at all the cute clothes, and imagine
    what it might have been like.  I think I'll do that forever.
    
    It doesn't mean I love my boys less, or that my boys are any 'less'
    mine, or 'more' their dads'.  They're MY boys, just as their dads would
    say "He's MY boy!".  I've just always wanted to have children.  I never
    wanted to ONLY have daughters or ONLY have sons.
    
    There are 5 kids in my family.  The oldest is a boy.  Then 4 girls.  In
    an effort for another boy.  I was the 3rd girl, and a MAJOR
    disappointment.  I got a lot of 'boy' stuff wished on me (which was
    okay) and am more of a tom-boy than any of my other sisters.  By the
    time they were pregnant with my little sister, they were resigned to
    the fact it was going to be a girl.  My mother was sick, and the baby
    wasn't all that healthy, so I think that helped them appreciate her
    more, and concentrate less on her NOT being a boy.
    
    What if you had another boy?  Wouldn't he just be a thorn in her side,
    and a constant reminder that he should have been her daughter??
    
    What if you take ALL the ownership (yours, mine) off of the children,
    and just try to decide if you want another child AT ALL or not. ??
    
    I'm not sure if it's in topic 123, but there was something that
    increased your odds of having a girl, if the woman (essentially) ate
    very healthy foods.  For boys, eat more chocolate and junky food (or
    something like that).
    
    As for 4 more than 3.  Well, when I first had my 3rd, I kept saying
    "Ah, it's not much more work than 2!", but the older they get, the
    harder it seems to get.  The older ones want me to teach them things
    like modelling (cars, planes etc), rules for games, help with homework
    etc, and the younger one wants to play and demands the attention a 2-yr
    old requires.  I'm by myself, with no one else in the household to help
    split the effort, and it's pretty damn impossible sometimes.  I feel
    that all of my children have suffered through having more children. 
    Not that they're scarred for life, but I could have given them a much
    HIGHER quality of life, if there were less of them.
    
    NOT that I'd trade one of them for a minute!!
    (well, maybe some days ... (-;)
    
    One other unpleasant thing to consider as well .... if anything were to
    happen to either one of you, would the other be able to deal with 4
    children, by yourself ???  It's a TON of work, and it's for years and
    years.
    
    FWIW - I'd still like to have another, at times.  But I know that,
    logistically, it'd be a nightmare (aside from the fact that I'm
    'fixed').  But there's still that URGE!  And then I bang my head
    against the wall, look in the mirror and say "WHAT ARE YOU, NUTS?!?"
    
    

    Hi,
    My wife and I recently went through a similar discussion. We have two
    boys. Last spring we decided, after much though to have a third
    child. The sex was secondary, but a girl certainly was on our minds.
    Well, we are having twins, one boy and one girl.
    We are still in a little panick. I have though allot about finances,
    especially college. On the other hand, one cannot control what will happen 
    in life. Just reading the replies of this note, illustrates that we do not
    know what the future will bring.
    Children can get sick or win scolarships. Then important thing is to
    have a family that is supportive of one another.
    My wife and I agree we made the right decision and are looking forward
    to the twins. In ten years I will tell you how it turns out for us.
    You are smart to spend the time thinking about your decision and
    obtaining the experience of others. In the end you have to do what
    feels right. 
    
    
    					Good Luck!  

    Well I put my foot down over the weekend and told my wife there was
    absolutely, positively no way we were going to have a 4th.  To put in
    gently, it wasn't a good weekend and I'm glad I have a trip planned
    this week.
    
    I was happy after we had our 2nd and that was it for me.
    My wife spent some time convincing me of the 3rd, so
    she believes she can convince me of a 4th.  I was hesitant about a 3rd,
    however, not totally against the idea like I am now. The problem is
    that I am now going to listen to her try and convince me of a 4th for
    the next  2 years or more.  She needs to accept it, WITHOUT BEING
    RESENTLFUL TOWARD ME FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES. She is committed to a
    4th and I don't know how to get it out of her head that it just ain't
    gonna happen.
    
    JH 
                          

    My husband only wanted 1 child.  When we first met he wasn't getting
    married and was never having children.  We have been married for 6
    years and have a 3 year old girl.  I guess, like with children, when
    you waiver once, then there is always hope.  My head says I know we are
    only having one, but my heart still thinks there is a chance.  I tease
    him and he stands firm.  The only way I would believe him is a serious
    move on his part, i.e. vasectomy.  We discussed it, I said lets look
    into it and he has done nothing.  That was two years ago.  
    
    My only suggestion, coming from the other side, is have a
    heart-to-heart and really tell her straight out, "this is it, no more,
    no how! Sorry, but thats it!".  She has to understand your reasoning 
    before she can understand that 3 is enough for you.  Im learning to
    live with the only child syndrome.
    
    Best of luck ...
    
    

    re .22 ... do you know what's in her heart - why she *REALLY* wants
    this 4th so badly??  If you can get to the heart of the matter, you
    might have a better chance reaching a peaceable end to it all.
    
    You seem totally polarized on this, and (personally) I think it's
    something that could easily drive a wedge between you ... you may want
    to consider an outside party (counselor, priest etc) to listen to you
    both and try to understand and convey all these feelings.  There's a
    *TON* of emotions around having babies - both pro and con, and they ALL
    need to be heard.
    
    Good Luck!

    
    It may help if you can explain to her in her terms what you
    concerns are and how they affect you. It may also helps for
    you to validate and accept her desire to have another child.
    It may be easier for her to swallow if you said something
    like "I know how much you would love to have another child,
    the children mean a lot to me, too. I have thought about this 
    for a long time. Having another child makes me worry though.
    (Fill in your reasons here. eg. I am not sure if we can
    afford to support another child. I want the children to
    to go college and I don't think we can manage that.)" You
    need to be completely honest and you need to accept that it
    will take her a while to get over that. If it comes up again,
    you can say "I know how disappointed you are, I am sorry that
    it (having a 4th child) doesn't work out." 
    
    
    Eva
    

    
       I agree with .25. I was going to reply when you wrote about putting
    your foot down and not letting your wife talk you into child number
    4.  I prayed to myself that you 2 have a good enough and strong enough
    foundation with this marriage to not have your wife suddenly start
    resenting not having the 4th. Didn't know how to word it. If she can
    fully understand the importance of NOT having that 4th child and can
    fully accept it, then that's good. If it's a situation where she may
    feel that you got your way and is resentful of that, well what could
    happen? I've heard of situations where the husband figured 'no more
    children' and then the wife 'accidently' forgot her pills. Not that
    your wife will do this, just hope that it's a 'good' understanding
    on her part that 4 children are TOO much, too expensive, too whatever.
    
    
       With enough open communication and both your feelings validated and
    understood a good chance that this will be good. 
    
       Rosie
    

    My uncle had girls, and kept hoping for a boy ...
    
    When he had 3 girls, he tried once more.  Another girl.
    After 4 girls, he tried one more time.  Finally got his son.
    
    Of course, by then he had 5 children to raise, feed, send to college,
    etc.  As an adult, I've become a little closer to my cousins, and have
    heard "mixed" reviews as to how they felt coming from a family of 5. 
    Most of my cousins are a little "angry" that they had to share so much
    when they were growing up (e.g., 3 kids to a bedroom, hand me down 
    clothes, "watch your younger sister", etc.).
    
    You have to consider ... if you go for #4 and it's not what you want,
    would you go for #5?

    I thank God that I got to grow up in a family of six.  We are still
    close and have wonderful times together.  I don't look back and 
    begrudge my parents one second of our large family, and neither do
    my parents.  
    
    But, things are so different now economically.  And my parents had
    it very tough, my mom didn't work until the last of us was in school.
    She scrimped and scratched for every penny.  But, I'm only finding that
    out now!  I didn't know it then.  I would think today, such things
    would be next to impossible.
    
    You're feeling are so strong against this child.  That's what matters
    here.  As someone else pointed out, you have to be firm and leave no
    possibility for "hoping" on your wife's part.   That's cruelest of
    all.
    
    Good luck, I hope your marriage is strong enough to weather this.
    
    							cj *->
    

    There were 5 in my family - 4 girls and 1 boy.  As a previous note
    mentioned, my parents struggled too - although I couldn't see that until I
    was in my teens.  We definately had all the basics (food, a roof over
    our heads).  I was next to the oldest.  Not much for hand me downs 
    and by the time I was in jr high, I did have to buy alot of my own 
    clothes (my older sister too). 
    
    No college was in our budget unless the kids paid their own way (and we
    had no help from grants - we weren't poor, just middle class).  Of course 
    by the time the older ones moved out there was more for the youngest. 
    That brings on alot of jealousy amoungst the kids.
    
    Eventually, my parents split.  The family isn't overly close.  And we
    all now live in 4 states. 
    
    I currently have 4 of the 5 kids living with me and my husband (2 of
    his 3 from his first marriage live with us).  It's tough.  The oldest
    is in college and we can't help her at all (her mom doesn't even work
    so there's no help there either).  I'm sure by the time the smaller
    ones reach college, there will be some money tucked away for them, but
    now-a-days, sending 5 to college is almost impossible (unless you're
    rich or never plan to retire).
    
    I'd strongly think about it.  I love the kids alot, but I feel bad that
    "they don't have everything".   
    
    Chris

    Oh ya...the older ones feel the pain of a large family.  They have to
    work, so the one that's in high school can't do any of the after
    school team things (sports, music).  And, I do hear the frustration
    when "Sally's" parents are paying all her expenses to go to college,
    and "Sean's" parents bought him a car.
    
    It's tough on them because we can't do the same (and maybe I wouldn't
    anyway, but it would be nice to offer).
    

If you really want her to believe it, and you are as firm as you say,
then do all the talking that everyone has suggested, and have a vasectomy.

        Carol

    My wife and I have two boys and a girl. She wanted a 4th, I almost had
    her convinced (thru reasoning, not a dictate) that 3 was the right
    number, now we're having our fourth :) :) A surprise, a shock, and a
    relief! The relief in that I know that she will have all the children
    she wants, and that I didn't end up convincing her to agree to
    something that she would regret later, or have possible resentments
    about later. It's done, this will be all, and there will never be any
    resentment that "I didn't let her" have a fourth. I can live with that.
    Not sure if I could have lived as well with just telling her NO. And
    keep in mind, it really isn't a single-handed decision, it is something
    for you both to decide. If you're firm, convince her why, don't just
    dictate that it won't happen, BIG mistake  :) And don't expect you'll
    ever understand the emotions she has for wanting "another" child, and
    you may never understand exactly why she wants it. Some things are
    intangible, especially when it comes to emotions, just accept that ans
    then you can deal better with the real issue here. And I really doubt
    the boy/girl is an issue at all here, I suspect she really just wants
    another child.
    	As far as the affordability, you will make sacrifices, and you will
    reap the rewards of more love from another child. I get a little
    annoyed when everyone says "HOw are you going to send them all to
    college"!! (and they said this with 3, just wait :) :) The simple fact
    is they may not all go. It will be their choice though, and there are
    viable career alternatives besides colleg. If one became an
    electrician, or a machinist, so be it. I will help them to prepare to
    provide for themselves. Maybe my parents will leave us something, maybe
    my wifes parents will. Maybe they won;t be cut out for college, but
    will be craftsman. Who knows? What I do know is that if we planned our
    family around the college thing, and then came into some money, or
    somebody didn;t go to college, we might find ourselves saying "Gee, if
    I knew he/she wasn;t gonna go to college, I could have afforded another
    one!" Oh well, too late now.
    	Go with your heart, and what is important to you, and you will
    provide. I've heard it said only have as many as you can love, I think
    that make smore sense than "how many you can send to college". And
    don't make the decision alone, it is a family thing. If you can't come
    to terms with this together, then it could easily ruin your family,
    so you must.  
    
    
    	good luck
    			Steve

re .31
>> If you really want her to believe it, and you are as firm as you say,
>> then do all the talking that everyone has suggested, and have a vasectomy.

    If he really "dictates" to her how it is going to be, there may be no
    need for a vasectomy :) 
    
    Shouldn't she be involved in this decision?
    Even though she is changing her mind now, I would use that to "reason"
    against another, and get her to agree to honor what had been previously
    agreed to. I would never take an action as an individual, that is NOT
    a marriage, like it or not.
    
    

    re: 32
    
    What an insightful comment Steve. Truly the words of someone who has
    been there.  Thanks for the perspective.

    re:  .33
    
    Like it or not, a man has a right to have a vasectomy if he so chooses,
    with or without his wife's consent.  It's his body, at least half his
    money we're talking about and certainly at least half his
    responsibility.  If he isn't willing to take on the responsibility of a
    fourth child, I would respect him for having the courage of his
    convictions and getting that little surgical procedure done.
    
    Most men have a great fear of a knife in such a ... personal region, so
    any fellow who does it is quite serious about his decision.  Lucky for
    me, I had my tubes done at the same time I delivered my now-5.5 month
    old (second) son.  I just turned 37, there's 7 years between my two
    sons, and my hubby and I simply do not want any more kids.  I love
    babies, could have a million of them, toddlers are adorable (difficult
    but very cute), but the range from 6.5 to 12+ is killing me!  -:)!!
    
    I can understand any parent who says, "this is enough, I'm happy."  My
    husband and I were quite happy to have an only child for all the past
    6+ years.  Just about the time my biological clock was starting to wind
    down (36 yrs old), we discovered I was pregnant last year, and would
    deliver a second child just three months after Joe's 7th birthday, it
    took a lot of thought and discussion to be comfortable with adding to
    our family, especially since we also have elder care issues (my 65 yr.
    old disabled mother!) to deal with.  We made the right decision, we
    love Jake dearly, more and more every day, but I can certainly see that
    life was *a lot* easier when we just had the one (somewhat
    self-sufficient) child.  
    
    M.
    
    

>>     Like it or not, a man has a right to have a vasectomy if he so chooses,
>>     with or without his wife's consent.
    
       Yes, he does have the right, but that does not make it the
    considerate thing to do. I belive that either parent making such a
    singlehanded decision is inconsiderate, without first making every
    effort to come to terms with it. Just going out and "getting it done"
    to prove a point is not, in my opinion, the right thing to do.
    	If two people, married, in love, sworn to committment, cannot
    resolve issues between themselves (don't have to agree, but come to
    some resolve), then that is a more significant issue.
    
    	I too, can understand the "I've had enough", I was happy with three.
    But I didn't take the approach of independently getting a vasectomy
    done to end the discussion. I think this husband has a perfect case for
    "enough", I'm not arguing that, I'm just trying to help with an
    approach to bring this to an "agreeable" resolution.
    
    And I can support the man not wanting more children, it's a fine
    decision if he chooses. What I disagree with is the approach
    recommended (go get a vasectomy so she takes you seriously) to
    resolve this. The wife has changed position on a previously agreed
    to thing, the number of kids both wanted. If she can't convince the
    husband, then I think she should back down. But the two should work
    it out, not just one person take control of the decision. (It'll make
    for a better life later for them both :)
    
    And yes, it gets busier with each one, wish me luck with three
    (oops, I meant four :) :)
    
    			Steve
    
    (and please, spare me the "It's my body crap  .....")  
    
    
    

    I believe that telling a spouse that you feel so strongly against
    having more children that you would rather have yourself sterilised
    than chance having more is a pretty strong statement of position.
    
    I don't find it the least bit inconsiderate.
    
    Going out and just having it done without discussing it first would be
    pretty horrid; but putting all your cards on the table and making your
    stand completely clear so there can be no misunderstanding whatsoever
    is very considerate indeed.
    
      Annie

>>    I believe that telling a spouse that you feel so strongly against
>>    having more children that you would rather have yourself sterilised
>>    than chance having more is a pretty strong statement of position.
>>    
>>    I don't find it the least bit inconsiderate.

I don't think anyone is saying that this position is inconsiderate.
    
>>    Going out and just having it done without discussing it first would be
>>    pretty horrid;

*This* is what is inconsiderate.

Going out and having it done after discussing it but without gaining the
acceptance (not necessarily the approval) of the wife?  Not inconsiderate, but
I would be concerned for the marriage.

						Brian