Conference moira::parenting

    I live in a neighborhood where four families get together frequently.
    Their are ten children and the ages range from 10 months to 6 years.
    When a group of the children were between the ages of 3 and 5 I noticed
    some of the children being excluded from the group (from time to time).
    I believe this is a stage some children go through but it does not make
    it hurt any less!  I found that if the children played one-on-one then
    they were able to form a better relationship and it eventually carried
    over to the group play.  So maybe you can schedule some play time for Sarah
    and Jessica.  Hopefully, it will help when all the children are playing
    together.
    
    Regards,
      
    

First, you're at about the age where kids learn to be 
hurtful with their words.  It was at this age that my
daughter started with the "you're not my friend anymore"
tantrums.  Don't worry, they do grow out of it (the good
news) but it may take about a year (the bad news).

As for how to handle the kids, have you tried role
playing with each of them individually?  For Jessica, 
have an adult play her and she plays one of the other 
kids.  You can show her how annoying (and sometimes
painful) her physical contact can be.  She's used to 
interacting more with adults who you can hold and hug
harder.  For your daughter, you be your daughter and 
let her be Jessica.  Say the hurtful things to her that
she's saying and let her tell you how she feels.  Explain
that this is how Jessica feels.

Good Luck!

Irene

    
    If there was only 1 thing I learned about raising kids .... it's that
    their interaction with other kids their own age is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL
    for them to be able to play and share well.
    
    When Chris was young (our first), we worked opposite shifts, and he
    never had to go to daycare.  He was always either with my husband or
    me.  He never had a lot of exposure to other kids, nor learned to play
    well with other kids.  He was eventually put in a home daycare for a
    few hours a day, when our shifts overlapped, but even that was limited
    exposure to other children.
    
    When he was ~4, we put him in a nursery-school type thing.  He did
    miserable.  He was totally withdrawn, wouldn't join in, didn't know how
    to play with the other children, and had no CLUE how to make friends. 
    Things that he would have simply "figured out" if he'd been faced with
    it always.  He's now 10, and has pretty much recovered, but it took
    about 3-4 years.  He's a year behind in school because it *REALLY* took
    a solid year for him to hone up his social skills enough to be able to
    be socially ready for school.  Academically, he soars.  
    
    Jason, on the other hand, has always been in daycares with kids his own
    age, and he'd make friends with Charles Manson if given the chance. 
    What a charmer.  BUT, he does tend to lie and petty-theft, which I
    think he learned from friends as well, so there's always trade offs!
    
    So, based on my experience, I'd say she just needs MORE interaction,
    and other kids are her best teachers.  When she asks her mom how come
    your kids won't play with her then she should TELL HER - she's just too
    rough, or too physical, and then let the kids tell her.  She needs to
    hear it, and I find that it's usually a lot clearer coming from other
    kids.
    
    
    Good luck!
    Patty

    One of the most common phrases I notice being used
    in my three-year-old's daycare is "use your words".
    It's used in a lot of different situations, maybe
    it will work here.
    
    If a child just had a toy stolen, they are not allowed
    to lash back, they have to use their words (not temper)
    to get the toy back (teacher helps here, parent too in
    a play group environment).
    
    If a child is hit, "use your words" ["STOP HITTING ME!"]
    and the teacher steps in and corrects.
    
    If a child is dragged by the collar, the child is supposed
    to "use their words" instead of physical force.
    
    Maybe intervention in a corrective sort of way, instructing
    all the children to use their words instead of physcial
    force.  Even a forcefull, unwelcomed hug can be replaced
    with an "I like/love you".
    
    Maybe?

    Thanks for your suggestions so far.  I like the suggestion about the
    two children getting more one-on-one time.  As a matter of fact, we
    invited Jessica over yesterday afternoon to go sledding, and the girls
    got along very well.
    
    Last night, we had playgroup, which also went pretty well.  Mostly
    because we had a formal project where everyone sat at a table to
    decorate gingerbread houses.  During storytime, however, Sarah got
    clique-y with Michelle and wouldn't let Jessica sit next to Michelle.
    Jessica went off by herself and pouted while the rest of the kids
    listened to the story.
    
    Keep the ideas coming.  Thanks!!  - Sheryl

	I agree with the noters that said some one-on-one time might help
	and that using your words is important. I also agree that kids need
	to be around other kids.  My nephew is an only child and is 4.5now
	he started preschool this year (3times a week for a few hours) but
	other than that he is only around adults.  He is very mature and
	smart.  But his social skills are lacking, I think school will help
	with this.

	But anyway back to Jessica, maybe suggest to her mother, that besides
	your daughter and Michelle, Jessica could benefit from some other
	friends. Maybe her mother could involve her in another play group
	besides yours or in preschool once or twice a week, or maybe just
	gymnastics or dancing or something where she gets to meet other kids.
	Then she could also come to your play group.

	Good luck,
	Karen T.

    I've been reading this note and I have a sidebar to it concerning
    Jessica.
    
    I'm almost 40 and I wasn't around other kids much growing up.  My mom
    worked but she worked with her brother at a lumber yard he owned and I
    was brought up there.  My dad had his own business and I tagged around
    with him too.
    
    We also had a farm and were a long ways from other kids my age and the
    idea of playgroups didn't exist.
    
    When I was 4 and 5 I went to nursery school and then kindergarten but I
    seldom saw kids my age other than that.  That was okay, but I liked
    being with my family and aunts and uncles.
    
    I guess my question is... weren't a lot of us brought up this way? 
    Other situations I've found among people my age is that mom stayed
    home, but didn't have a car and they hung around with her or with
    brother or sisters.  
    
    So are we all lacking in social skills?  Maybe Jessica is actually more
    mature than the other kids and they aren't responding correctly, I
    don't know.  The reason I say this is.... I was just reading in US News
    about home schooling.  One of the worries that some people have is that
    the kids aren't socialized enough with other kids.  Apparently "experts"
    who study this sort of thing say, it isn't that the kids aren't
    socialized, it is that they are socialized with adults.  Most home
    schooled kids go to public high school apparently and the
    "socialization" complaint they have is dealing with kids their age who
    are petty, mean, aggressive, etc., because those kids have mostly been
    socialized with other kids.
    
    
    The other thing I wonder about with socialization is.... I was supposed
    to go to a 2 room schoolhouse and was tremendously excited about it
    (saw my desk and everything).  I also knew the teacher and the other
    few kids.  Well, that year, the town closed our small school and
    shipped everyone to the big school.  All I can say is, I was totally
    traumatized with being in a class of 35 kids who for the most part were
    damn mean.  I'm not sure a playgroup would have helped me cope with any
    of this.  
    
    Tina

    
    I think that a "playgroup" would have helped.  And I think that being
    "socialized" part of that defines whether you can cope well with your
    peers.  If (for kids) that means being able to deal with mean agressive
    kids, then that's what it has to mean.
    
    This is exactly the problem that Chris had when we finally got him
    mixed with other kids.  They weren't kind, they weren't fair, they
    grabbed and pushed instead of talking.  He was "outcast" as a misfit,
    because he didn't know how to interact with kids his own age.  He does
    *GREAT* with adults.
    
    You learn how to be with adults, when you're a child - well, that's
    great for when you're an adult ... but it doesn't help any when you're
    still a child.
    
    Kids need kids.

>    
>    Kids need kids.

Yes and no ...  I know of kids who were forced into the socialization
arena with other kids and did not benefit from it ... if anything it
made them more recluse.

You may have a child who is far happier with one or two one-on-one friends
than lots of less close friends, or vice versa ... and that will tell how
much one should push the socialization thing.

The other thing that can impact socialization is the kind of activities in
that socialization.  Due to problems with eyes, I was never any good at
many sports activities, so I dreaded sports ... to the point of being sick.
Yes, practice may have helped, but the humiliation was far worse than any
of the advantages of being around other children.

I do not believe in black and white answers ... you need to measure your
child's ability to cope and don't force on him more than that.

Stuart

    Hi,
    
    It's the basenoter here.  Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions
    so far.  I'm going to see my friend tomorrow night, so I'll share all
    your notes with her.  
    
    So far, most of the comments have been about how to help socialize
    children.  Can anyone comment on how to get children to be nicer and
    more accepting of others?  My kids could really use some help in that
    area.  If they find one thing that they don't like about someone, they
    dismiss them as a friend immediately.  I'd like them to learn that they
    don't have to like everything about a person to accept them as a
    friend.  Of course, we have conversations about it, but that doesn't
    seem to do much for them.
    
    Thanks!
    
    Sheryl
                                       

    
    re .10
    
    One approach I find useful is to teach my daughter to
    get into the other kid's shoes, to make her see the
    world from the other kid's point of view. 
    
    One thing I try to remember is to say something positive
    (and give an explanation of the behavior) about a person whom 
    I may have been complaining about in front of my daughter.
    eg. If I say someone's action is driving me nuts, I will add
    that I know why someone does it, that the action may make
    sense to him/her, that that is the way someone is, and if
    it is trivial matter I'll get over it.
    
    
    Eva