Conference moira::parenting

    We have a Mac for a 'PC' (for a few reasons) rather than a Nintendo.

    The Mac is REAL easy for the kids to use and to load new software
    and hardware options.  Most of my friends with 'IBM compartible'
    PCs constantly have trouble either getting new software to run or
    installing new hardware.  But either are a good choice.

    I bought a 'tablet' with a pen to replace the mouse.  We have a
    son with poor fine motor so I want him practicing with a 'pencil'
    every chance I get.  He hates to write, but he's improved by using
    the pen on the tablet.  It also has improved the kids 'art' over
    the art they used to draw with the mouse.  I bought a cheap
    art program that uses the 'pressure sensitivity' of the pen (256 levels)
    and has real simulated paper and drawing implements like crayon,
    felt tip, pencil, etc. and the kids really can draw nice pictures.

    Most of the software for 'computers' is VERY different from the
    Nintendo software.  (perhaps someone with a nintendo will explain
    how i'm wrong about this...but this is how it looks to me).  The
    Nintendo system has no saved 'state' so once you start playing you
    have to continue until you 'win'.  You cant stop where you are and
    'save' the game.  This creates two very undesirable situations:
    - its VERY hard to get the kids to stop.  There may be a 'pause' feature,
    	but that's not the same thing.  I doubt you want to pause it until
    	tomarrow or the next time you have time to play.  So quitting is a
    	big deal.  With most computer games, you can quit where you are and
    	pick it up from there next time.

    - the kids do very little 'exploration'.  The object of Nintendo games
    	is to WIN, and generally in as few moves as possible.  Speed is
    	important so that you can win in the few hours you might have
    	before Mom/Dad calls you for dinner.  With most computer games,
    	since you can save where you are, there's very little penalty for
    	trying out new things.

    There is also a lot of 'non-game' software out for computers that is
    really great.

    We have our Mac loaded with kids stuff....so that its the envy
    of many kids in the neighborhood.  They want to come over and play
    on our computer rather than stay home with their Nintendo.  I like
    having the kids at our house and our kids done miss the Nintendo all that
    much.

    Now an admission....last year Santa did bring a 'game boy', a real limited
    version of Nintendo that is great for traveling.  We've got a few games
    and the kids trade games now and then.  It has all the things I dont
    like about Nintendo.  And it doesn't hold a candle to the Mac.
    bob

    
    Ditto to everything Bob said.  
    
    One other advantage to the PC is that you can use education software
    and I have yet to see a Sega or Nintendo game that has anything
    comparable.
    
    My suggestion is to get the PC and get a Game Boy for your son.
    I think it is a good compromise.
    
    Good Luck,
    Pam

    
    We have a PC (bought it so we can work at home during
    snow storms!), an old Sega system (6+ yrs old adult toy) 
    and a portable Sega (which we bought specifically for our
    daughter).
    
    The PC, we use for everything, work (writing code), doing
    our taxes, games, word processor and research (Encyclopedia
    on CDROM) for my daughter's school work (we have a printer),
    etc.
    
    The big Sega system (hook up to TV) is collecting dust. 
    
    The portable Sega is great for my daughter. It is perfect for 
    traveling - long car and plane trips. It is perfect to keep her
    occupied for couple of hours - boring adult social gatherings
    where there are no kids to play with. IMO, Sega is better product
    than Nintendo. Sega is mulitple colored, has better graphics and
    better ergonomics (spelling?), we (adults) tried out both before
    we went with Sega.  
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    If you don't want to buy Nintendo, don't. You'll probably regret it if
    you do and it will create conflicts.
    
    I remember reading about pc games that are more "arcade style" like the
    Nintendo's. I don't remember which ones but a catalogue form
    Edutainment or some other reseller might help you identify them. Then
    you could leave the catalogues around the house.
    
    The nice thing about pc's is they don't do anything. It's the sw that
    determines the style and content of the game. ..and that can change as
    tastes change.

Hey! I've BEEN there..

It's really hard in my opinion to compare the two...

Don't get me wrong,, but my suggestion would be
on the Nintendo for now if the request is for
game playing for a six year old... 

..Don't misread this,, this is not a MAC vs IBM Reponse..
It's  the PC vs. Game  deck.. 

Think of the comercial where Dad's trying to install
a Dinosouar CD for his kid, who eventually goes to
Billy's cuz he's got a mac...  

But this situation happens constantly with folks
who are trying to get the $49.00 game they just
bought for their son {at BJ's} to work on their PC...  

Four hours later, you're ready to throw it and the PC 
out the backdoor,, and how do i know this,, cuz most of 
the people I know,, call me for help, (It's easy once you
know what yer doing..)

(Win95 will aleviate some of the above,, but Win95 brings
it's own sins to the table...)

Why am i saying all this,, well,,,

I do this for a living {outside of the office as well}
it's NOT trivial if your novice...  Nothing is more frustrating
than trying to figure out why you're still getting "Not enough 
memory" erros, while your son's smile slowly fades to a frown while he
watches you pull your hair out trying to make Street Fighter II 
work on the PC...  On the nintendo, plug the game in, and turn it on..
DONE...,

We can argue over education issues all week, but this *IS* the 
reality  of this issue...

Also consider this,, what if he's got a few of his buddies over,
will you cut them loose on a $2,000 PC to play games on a 
rainy saturday afternoon ????  Just look at the whole picture,,, 
then decide..

Go for the computer. We also have both a PC and a Mac. My son, who is now 5,
uses both of them (hidden message there: how many operating systems will your
kids know by the age of 10 ;^)

I believe some of the games available on Nintendo are also available on the PC.
There are certainly plenty of other arcade-style PC games. But the Nintendo play
style seems pretty limited to me. A lot of PC games move into the edutainment
area. So they teach things at the same time. "Make learning fun" is of course a
cliche, but there are a lot of programs that can actually do that. Games like
the Carmen San Diego series, incredible things like Myst (I would pit any kid
who could solve Myst in less than a year of play against Sherlock Holmes!), fun
stuff like Oceans Below. Kids can spend a lot of time with these and come away
with a lot more than carpal tunnel syndrome and sore thumbs. And then keep a few
brain-dead shoot-em-ups around for the times they just want to zap aliens.

You can also build your own games with things like Maxis Klick & Play, even if
you aren't a programmer.

If you or the kids have any interest in music, there is a lot of stuff for
computer music, with or without a separate synthesizer. You can get a nice
Yamaha or Casio synthesizer with Midi interface for less than $200.

Keyboards and mice can be replaced, too, if the kids get a little too rough. You
can buy the Nickelodeon or Star Trek keyboard and mouse at Toys R Us.

Bottom line to me is there is a lot of great software out there for all kinds of
things. Game decks do great arcade games, but that's it. Not a lot of growth
potential.

> <<< Note 1045.5 by USCTR1::pelkey.ogo.dec.com::pelkey "professional hombre" >>
>                          -< A different opinion... >-

>..Don't misread this,, this is not a MAC vs IBM Reponse..
>It's  the PC vs. Game  deck.. 
>
>Think of the comercial where Dad's trying to install
>a Dinosouar CD for his kid, who eventually goes to
>Billy's cuz he's got a mac...  
>
>But this situation happens constantly with folks
>who are trying to get the $49.00 game they just
>bought for their son {at BJ's} to work on their PC...  
>
>Four hours later, you're ready to throw it and the PC 
>out the backdoor,, and how do i know this,, cuz most of 
>the people I know,, call me for help, (It's easy once you
>know what yer doing..)

How can you say this is not a Mac Versus IBM issue.
You are describing the real life difference between the two.

Dont go for the Nintendo/Sega cause you think you'll have nothing
but trouble with the PC.  You probably will have nothing but
trouble with the PC (unless supporting computers is your job
or you want to learn a LOT about supporting PCs).  Buy
the Mac.  Buy the game, plug it in and off you go.  You dont
need a game deck to be successful with this stuff.

<<How can you say this is not a Mac Versus IBM issue.
<<You are describing the real life difference between the two.


I feel dumb, you're right I did Digress...


I'd still get the game deck though...

  Lots of kids (including my son) have been using Macs since 'way
  back when. I think we bought ours when my son was 6, certainly
  no later than 7.

  A computer is (potentially) a much richer experience than any
  game deck. Besides having most of the genres of arcade games,
  there is also a wealth of "edutainment" available. One of
  the very first things that drew my son to the computer was
  "Oregon Trail", a game that teaches something about the
  American westward expansion.

  And computers allow far more *THOUGHT* and *CREATIVITY*. The
  other big application that caught AJ was "Kid Pix", a simple
  drawing program that's tremendous fun to use.

  After that, there's all the usual stuff: "Homework support"
  like word processors, dictionaries, and encyclopedias, "Parent
  Support" like Quicken and tax programs, and on and on...

  And re: PC versus Mac: I think this is easy. And the commercial
  that showed Dad fooling with the PC while the kids went to the
  house with the Mac said it all. Adding nnew programs to the Mac
  is usually an absolutely simple, fool-proof process, even when
  you add your first multimedia program, speech program, etc.

                                   Atlant

    
    Oh, on the issue of PC vs Mac, if my husband and I weren't
    both engineers (who mind but telerate doing strange things 
    once in a while to get the system working), we would have 
    bought a Mac.
    
    
    Eva

    Get your son Nintendo for his birthday and Game Boy for Christmas.
    Next year you can get him a pair of glasses after staring at the screen
    for thousands of hours.  The following year, a wrist brace.
    
    Only kidding !
    
    Our 5 year old son enjoys his Game Boy with Donkey Kong program - 
    It's a great travel aide and keeps him entertained.  His parents are
    not into video games so he does not have to share with us.

    Skip the toys.  Get a computer.  It can play games, but, as Atlant
    says, it can also do real work while the toys will gather dust.
    
    The choice of PC vs. Mac is yours to make.  The difference, again as
    Atlant says, is that the Mac is almost as simple as the Nintendo - you
    can add programs in a jiffy, and most Macs these days come already
    fully configured for multimedia - while the PC will give you nothing
    but trouble every time you need to make even the slightest change to
    it.
    
    Make the investment now.  You won't regret it.

    I would definitely go for the computer. I've been watching this in
    our neighborhood (which has lots of 3-10 year olds), and most of the
    people with game machines are buying (or have bought) computers.. 
    
    (I have to insert here the standard counterpoint to the Mac argument..)
    
    most PCs come 'fully congifured for multimedia" these days too..
    and have more software available, and the software generally costs
    less.
    
    (OK, I'm back now.)
    
    but I have to agree, it's good to have a "geek on call" when installing
    things on a PC.. (unfortunately, in my neighborhood, that person is
    me..)
    
    YMMV..
    ...tom

    
    I have to agree with what people are saying about the difficulty
    of working with the PC.  If you don't want to bother, get a MAC
    or the game....but I would go for the MAC.

    reason for both....
    
    kids can play with the video game while parents can use the computer.
    
    you can rent video games from the video store.
    
    (I don't own a Nintendo and don't care to, but my sister does and finds
    she uses the computer while the kids are playing video)
    
    

    I have to agree with Cheryl.  The problem we run into is that the major
    time the kids want to play games seems to be when my huband or I need
    to do work on the computer, catch up Quicken, etc.  We don't have an
    Nintendo (and don't intend to buy one) but have considered buying a
    cheap used computer so we can stop the conflict of usage.
    
    Irene

As a geek (not yet board-certified, though), I would recommend both also, you
know, both a PC and a Mac. At home, the PC is "my" machine, while the Mac is
everyone else's machine. I grew up on PC's, but was so impressed when I saw the
Mac Performa 550 that I got one for my son, and it has indeed proved to be very
easy to use and set up. He can play all he wants while I do my work on the PC.

My advice for the non-techie looking for a home computer is a Mac. I believe it
is easier for the average person to deal with. Any PC worth its salt comes
pre-configured, but that configuration may not always work with memory-hungry
DOS-based games. Then you have the horror of memory tuning. "How can I get all
my drivers loaded *and* still have 600k of memory for the game?" Major pain. Not
a problem with Windows-based software, but most really good games are DOS-based
and need lots of memory for graphics and audio effects. This is like gearheads
tweaking that last tenth of a horsepower out of an engine, except that in this
case, if you can't tweak it the thing won't run at all. 

No question about it, the schizophrenic nature of the PC, with DOS software and
Windows software, is probably the main source of problems with PC's. New "plug
and play" capabilities in PC hardware alleviate some of the old
port/interrupt/DMA channel headaches.

So if you are into it, either one is fine. If not, get a Mac and keep life
simple. There is plenty of software once you get into the mail-order catalogs;
you just don't see as much of it in the retail outlets.

    I don't have time to read all these replies but ....
    
    I have both a PC and a Nintendo.
    Their dad has a PC and a Sega Genesis.
    
    The games gets used 50 times more than the PCs.  For several reasons.
    
    1. They know ALL about the games, and they're much simpler to work than
    the PC.  We buy a new cartridge, stick it in, and it WORKS.  Period.
    
    2. They always know where the cartridges are. No fussing  through
    windows or in and out of DOS.
    
    3. They understand all the directions - each cartridge operates
    basically the same.  Computer games can be VERY different from mfg to
    mfg.
    
    4. If I need to log in and work, they can still play their games and
    leave me alone to work.
    
    5. I get nervous with them poking around the PC *TOO* much.  I've had
    Jonathan inadvertantly delete several program GROUPS by a few smacks of
    the keyboard.  Something I'd REALLY rather avoid.
    
    6. The regular NES is now only $50.00, and WELL worth it, in my
    opinion.  
    
    7. The NES games are much cheaper than a decent PC game.
    
    .....as a matter of fact, our "old style" NES is getting very worn, so
    I'm buying a new one for Christmas .... anyone selling their NES games
    off??
    

    Someone should forward this string to Apple.

    I'm left with the question of why ANYONE would buy
    a PC over a Mac.  I know that's not the subject for this
    conference, but its just screaming out.

    Of those who responded, to the people with Mac's its clear
    you should buy a Mac.  To people with PCs, they recommend either
    the game machine or a Mac.  This is incredible.

    I work at home and have two Macs in the same room as my 'office'.
    My 3 year old would come in and turn the machine on and
    happily do her thing for hours..in and out of several programs,
    trying out new programs I've just put on, etc.  Hardly aware that
    I'm in the same room.  With Macs, the 'user controls' of most
    manufacturer's software are all very similar so that when you get
    the hang of it you dont need to read any manuals.  Most programs
    are just easy to use.  My kids bring home (bootleg!) programs
    from their friends and load them right on and use them.
    Without reading any manuals I just plugged the machines and the
    the printer together with telephone cord and 'instant network'.

    Why do people buy PCs?  The poor Mac has only about 10% of the
    market.  Its really amazing.
    bob

Well, we have a PC which everyone in the family shares, and we're very
happy with it.  My 7-year-old has seen Nintendo at some friends' homes,
and has asked for one of his own, but he's rather casual about it, so I
doubt we'll get one.  We got the PC 2 years ago, and it's pretty loaded
(lots of disk and memory, multimedia stuff, etc.), and maybe that's part
of why we haven't had the problems with it that others have mentioned?
We have installed *lots* of software on it easily, and the kids were very
comfortable using it within a few weeks of when we got it (they were then
3.5 and 6 years old).

There is a wealth of kids' software for the PC today, and it appears that
most new stuff comes out with both Mac and PC versions.  In addition to
games, our kids also spend a lot of time on less mindless (sorry if I'm
offending anyone here!) software.  They've used KidPix to draw countless
pictures, make party invitations, (rarely) write thank-you notes, etc.
My 7-year-old has used Microsoft Word for some school reports (an editor's
an editor...).  They've used the CD-based encyclopedia, they've spent hours
with Carmen Sandiego and the Magic Schoolbus (maybe those also are available
for Nintendo?  I skip past that aisle.) and Incredible Machines and they've
helped daddy pick out good pictures to pull over from the Internet and...

Don't reject the idea of a PC out of hand.  Try one out and do some
research on *current* ease of use, prices for hardware and software,
availability of service, etc.  There's a much smaller gap between PCs and
Macs than there used to be.  In fact, both my kids have Apples of some sort
at school, and they move very comfortably back and forth between our PC and
those systems (much of the software that they use is identical).

					cheryl

We also have a PC which everyone shares.  My sister-in-law's family has a
Nintendo, as does one of my daughter's friends', so the kids have played with
one, but we have no intention of getting one.  The arcade-style game played on
a Nintendo is not at all the type of game we purchase for use on the PC, so our
choice is more about the games than the hardware.

Why a PC?  Partly for work (we do make PC's, we do run NT on Alpha systems),
partly because of the huge supply of software, partly because of the easy
upgradability (by that I mean many options and many suppliers, not physical
ease of doing the upgrade).  I've had some complaints, but I've had essentially
no trouble with my machine, and I've added hardware, reconfigured stuff, etc. 
Macs are not trouble free; my wife uses a Mac at work, and has spent a number
of fruitless hours on the phone with Apple trying to get problems resolved. 
Nothing is perfect.

						Brian

We have 2 PCs, Super Nintendo, regular Nintendo, Sega Gamegear (portable),
and GameBoy (also portable, but currently doesn't work).

We use all but the Nintendo, and that's only because the Super Nintendo is
more fun.

One advantage of the Super NES games is that some of them are 2 player.
Evan (7) and I are playing Secret of Mana together, at the same time.  
There are 3 heros on the screen, and he can play 1 of them while I play the
other 2.  Also, when he plays Aladdin, his brother picks up the other control
(which is useless in Aladdin, a 1-player game) and "plays Abu" (hey, he's 3,
and he's having a *great* time!).  ;-)

Overall, I prefer the PC/Mac type machines (I agree that Mac is better).
However, with 2 computer adults and 2 kids, it's nice to have more than 
1 machine.  We got the Game Gear, btw, for long drives.  I liked it because
it was color, and lit up in the dark.  The Game Boy has better games, in my
opinion, but isn't as nifty looking.  The second computer is our old 286,
which still runs several nice children's games.

       Carol

  Thanks for all the great information.  Today is my son's birthday.  He has
already opened his gifts (no Nintendo) and was happy.  He did get an electronic
chess game which he thought was cool.  We still plan on buying a pc for the
whole family before Christmas.


Elizabeth