Conference moira::parenting

The problem is simple, the problem is how to improve the situation ...

In all likelihood, he is B-O-R-E-D.  There is far too much excitement in
the world to waste time on doing things like printing tidily, to practice
horn, to complete any work satisfactorily.

Once he's got it worked out in his mind, then it's done.

It's a problem I've always had ... but there is enough of a perfectionist
that this has to fight against, that I manage to do a reasonable job, especially
if what I'm doing is for someone else.  If it is for me, then I don't.  As a
result, I hate doing mundane things like shaving, like brushing my hair, going
to the barber, and so on.

I wish I had an answer, other than explaining why something is not acceptable.
Teachers from my past, where every piece of class work did not count, would
return work with a 0 grade ... saying that they couldn't read it, so how could
they mark it ... then giving me the opportunity of tidying it up and marking it
then.  It would help for a while.

To complicate things, my handwriting is not good because of co-ordination
problems ...

Perhaps the teachers or school counsellor might have other ideas on how to
cope with it.

Stuart

    
    
    I agree with .1 about the boredom. My daughter is in the 5th
    grade, and on and off, she exhibits similar behavior as your son's.
    My husband and I try to maintain the guideline - "If you don't have
    the time or don't want to spend the time to do something right, don't
    do it." When she starts to slack off, eg. not practice her guitar
    as often as she should, we remind her that the guitar lessons
    will stop and we would sell her guitar if she chooses. Up till the
    4th grade, I would check her homework every single night and I would 
    make her redo pieces that were not acceptable to me. I would not get 
    upset, I would help her with erasing or whiting out, or what not. I made 
    sure she understood what was good work and what wasn't. She wasn't allowed 
    to do anything until all her homework was acceptable to me. I don't
    do that anymore, but I still check her homework, classwork and tests after 
    they were graded, and I do make remarks about the "craftmanship". In 
    the 5th grade, marks are actually taken off for messiness.  As far as
    making excuses for not doing things is concerned, I usually give her
    one chance. For instance, if she said she would do something in 30
    mintues, I would wait for 30 mintues, if that something still didn't
    get done or started, I would order her to get it done NOW. Yes, she
    flies off the handle once in a while, but if I think I am fair, then
    I would turn the table around for a day or two, not responding to her
    requests, making excuses not to do anything for her and let her feel the 
    frustration for a while. That usually gets her thinking and behaving for a 
    while. We try to keep our cool and not get into heated arguments with
    her, but drive the point home in a different way, in a way that she can
    appreciate. It is like a mental game at this point.
    
    
    Eva

We have some of the same problems with our son, now 13.  His hand writing is 
atrocious and homework is something to get through.  When he was in 4th grade 
it was suggested that we get him onto a computer as soon as possible and
let him type his work.  It was more fun for him, certainly more grown up and 
he was very creative with fonts and pictures, etc.  

It doesn't do anything for his handwriting which is very nice when he
concentrates, but it has done a lot for his creativity and his grades.

Whatever you do, don't make it a big issue.  YOU can't solve HIS problem,
only he can do that.

I agree with the other noters that he is probably bored.  Is there any way
that you can introduce him to some new ways of approaching homework?  
You need to find out what his particular needs are by talking it through
and not letting him off the hook.  A reward system might be his thing or
learning more sophisticated ways of doing research.  Perhaps he needs some
more structure to his work, like answering a specific question about a
book rather than a general "book report".

Good luck!

	From the first grade on through fourth, my husband and I had 
	similar frustrations with our daughter.  I suspected in first
	grade that she was bored.  Her work was never complete however
	she did have time to correct and assist the other three children
	in her work group.  She was always right.  When I mentioned the
	possibility of boredom to the teacher I was treated as though I 
	was an idiot.  "How could she be bored, she hasn't done her work
	yet?"  I remembered being bored myself, and not doing assignments
	that I felt were "stupid".  We knew she was intelligent, she was
	reading before she finished kindergarten.  She had a long attention
	span when working on a project she chose for herself.  Finally
	we had her tested.  She was indeed intelligent but she was also
	bored, and she did have a learning disability with regard to the
	mechanics of writing.  (her work too was always sloppy)

	When the results were brought to the school for the start of her 
	third grade year, her teacher made arrangements for her to have 
	more challenging work.  SHe was allowed to do her writing assignments
	on the word processor. (no forming of the letters or staying on the
	lines to burden her) Book reports or short stories were a nightmare.
	By the time she wrote out a sentence she lost her train of thought.
	The teacher suggested that we allow her to speak her story or report
	into a tape recorder and play it back like dictation in order to write
	it into report form.  This way her creative process was not bogged
	down by the mechanics of writing.
	Her math assignments were xeroxed for her. (previously the children 
	were expected to copy them out of the book onto paper and then do 
	the calculations.  For her the copying was so burdensome she had no 
	energy or desire left for the actual calculations)  

	My advice to you is to ask the school about testing.  Keep in touch
	with his teachers.  Offer him alternatives like using a pc for his
	assignments if possible. Try to come up with a consequence for
	incomplete tasks and sloppy work.

	Best of luck,

		Jean

    When I see that sort of behavior in my 4 year old, I tend to label it
    fear of failure. Last night she learned to make an "R" and jumped up
    and down with glee. One minute later, she buried her head in a corner,
    frustrated and angry because the next "R" wasn't perfect.
    
    Is your son's behavior new or has it been there all along, not
    finishing puzzles, etc. ? He may be having minor difficulties with
    specific things, like getting his hands to do what his brain wants them
    to do. Then the frustration builds...especially if he is bright and
    sees that it is not perfect. 
    
    I'd back off for a while. Maybe back off a couple of years in
    handwriting and ask the teacher to suggest how he can learn to do it
    over again...You know, like Montessori used sandpaper letters so the
    kids could really feel the letter before they tried to form it. 
    
    It may not be beahvioral. 

    
    As -2 said, "You are not alone".  This brings back (painful)
    memories..:-).  I suspect that most parents of pre-adolescent kids
    have lived thru some of this behavior.  In our house, the discussion
    centered on "What are acceptable versus non-acceptable
    standards/quality", and, for Mom and Dad, "How do we instill those
    qualities in our kids".  These standards are subjective for each
    person/family.  As the basenoter indicated, homework/schoolwork was
    only one of the areas where this surfaced.  Our daughter's rebuttal
    about messy homework was that the teacher often had the students correct
    it in class.  Therefore, why bother being neat and orderly..? IMO,
    though, most of this behavior is tied to the 'age'- beginning of
    independence, growing, questionning, concentration, etc.  Although
    we have no magic, we did (as other noters have shared) the 
    following:
             -Help them w/ organziation, planning, studying skills-a big one
             -Constantly review their work
             -Try to stay on top of it
             -Help them understand the consequences
             -Reward systems
             -Ask them questions:
                   Do you think that this is the best you can do?
                   How would you descibe a person who did this work?
                   Would that be accurate?
             -When possible, use the computer
             -Enagage teachers: Could there be a hand/eye coordination
                                issue?   
                                Get recommendations/support
             -Take vitamins, You'll need them
             -Smile and try to relax.  This is only the beginning.....
                                                              

    While I have no experience, to date, as the parent in this scenario, I
    have been the child described.
    
    You have my sympathies. Moreover, you have my parents' sympathies to
    the nth degree.
    
    By the time I was 9 years old, there was absolutely nothing that my
    parents could do to motivate me to put in more than I cared to put in.
    
    If something did not engage my interest or have meaning for me, I would
    not waste my time on it. I honestly could not have cared less if my
    teachers graded me well [although they almost always did] as the point
    to school, for me, was to learn. I had no interest in proving to
    someone that I had learned. 
    
    I was self-motivating and found external efforts to motivate me
    severely annoying.
    
    Time did work for me. For example, my parents couldn't convince me that
    legible penmanship was worthwhile; but when I found my scrawl hindered
    my attempts to communicate, my writing became legible. I didn't see the
    purpose of neatly hemming napkins and dish-cloths; but when I began to
    sew garments for myself and make gifts for family and friends, my
    perfectionism knew no bounds.
    
    You say that you cannot allow him to find his own level and feel the
    consequences of not doing "well." I guess I don't understand why not.
    Or perhaps his half-way approach falls over into areas that could cause
    positive harm?
    
    [FWIW, I now have a son of my own. My parents are eagerly anticipating
    seeing me deal with a brilliant, strong-willed child. What goes around
    may have come around big time.]
    
      Annie
    
    

Add me to the list of people who fit this mold as a child.  One of my
treasured belongings is a note from my first grade teacher about my 
reading.  I used to read more than anyone in the class, but I'd only
read in spurts when someone was catching up to me.  Then I'd cruise again.
I only did what I needed to to get A's, but never much more.  For what it's
worth, I got over it by high school.  Well, my handwriting is still 
atrocious, as you can plainly see :-).

I think the conclusion that you can draw, given the number of noters who 
seemed to suffer from this affliction, you'd better work on that motivation
or your child will end up working for Digital :-).

j.

    I agree with .4 -- have him tested.  My son is now 14 and STILL has
    this problem.  His problem is a learning disability with writing.  He
    knows what he needs to say but has a HORRIBLE time getting it to paper.
    As a result, his writing is sloppy, his spelling atrocious and he does
    only what's absolutely necessary to get by.
    
    Because of the learning disability he has the option of doing all
    writing assignments on the computer and any tests which involve a lot
    of writing can be taken orally (although he doesn't usually take
    advantage of this because he doesn't want to be "different").  It's
    made a world of difference in his grades and his self-esteem.
    
    cindy
    

When I was a kid, writing a report was always a family trauma. Whether it was a
one-page book report or a year-long project report, it was always cause for much
gnashing of teeth and rending of clothing between me and my parents. Ironic,
because now I spend a lot of time writing technical documents on development
projects, which are just adult reports. And *I* can barely read my own
handwriting, since I am too lazy to make it look pretty.

Looking back, I think a highly structured approach would have helped me. Now, I
rely on past experience to structure the writing of a new document, even to the
point of following a sort of development process. When I need to figure out a
new piece of code, I know I need to look for certain things and write about them
in a certain way. The end result will be a document that captures what I have
learned and can be used to pass it on to others.

A book report (and other types) can follow this approach very well. Like one of
the earlier replies said, think of asking your son specific questions. You could
even go so far as to create a questionnaire for him to fill out, then have him
write the report from that. What are the standard book report items? They are
all typical things to check off: title, author, number of pages, main
characters, where/when did it take place, plot (or more simply, what was it
about and what happened), interesting scenes, was it interesting/boring, etc.
Divide it into the objective and the subjective portions. Answer the questions
on the form, then write it up in prose. 

So all his book reports sound formulaic, does it really matter? Read
professional book reviews in newspapers and magazines. Are they any different
from this? Sounds cynical and mechanistic? A little, but also an effective means
for dealing with the problem, both getting through school reports, and doing
real world work. Structure your work once, and then do it the same way each
time. What matters is that you can capture the information. 

Have your son work with you on the form so he understands why the questions are
appropriate. This also helps him learn an approach to structuring his tasks. The
next time he has to do a different type of report, work with him to make up
another form appropriate for that type. Once I figured this out in college
physics, lab reports became a breeze. Of course, it helped that the instructor
was the one who gave us the general questionnaire. But that was the guidance he
provided as a teacher. "When you are doing this, these are the things you should
be looking for and recording." After a while, the meta task of looking for what
you should be looking for becomes easier, because it is a skill based on
experience. You provide the initial structure, but work to build in him the
skill to work out his own structure.

The real problem is that nobody ever teaches how to go about doing schoolwork.
They just tell you to do it. Nose to the grindstone and all that. Some people
just seem to have good study skills on their own, while others have to be taught
them. I am definitely in the latter category. Over the years (long after
finishing high school, unfortunately), I have learned a few things that work
well for me. Do your son a favor and start teaching him those skills now.

Another thing I found out about myself, I frequently enjoy learning things about
a variety of topics, even when forced to. But I just as frequently *hate* to
have to spout it back out, beating it to death reporting or testing or
discussing it. Some things I just like to take in and keep in. End of subject.
Most schoolwork focuses more on following up with a report or test to "prove"
that you actually did the work and understood it. You don't get credit for
acquiring the knowledge, you get credit for regurgitating it, often
misinterpreted as "using" it. Just because your son may not like the follow up
work doesn't mean he isn't genuinely learning something. 

    Steve, excellent note.  Reading it made me aware that I've unwittingly
    followed your advice twice with my (exasperating) daughter: would you
    believe that I had to make up a "cheat sheet" for her re: long
    division, outlining the needed steps?!  I felt kind of guilty doing that 
    (like I was helping her *too much*) but it keeps her on the task.   
    S l o w l y   she is absorbing the outline so shedoesn't have to refer 
    to it as often.
    
    I also whipped up an impromptu book report questionnaire (in a fit of
    pique while she was whining about not knowing what to *write*).  The
    components of a book report seemed so *obvious* to me!  Breaking it
    down made ALL the difference; Alex suddently became compliant,
    interested, eager to dig in.  She loved the book and hated the blank
    page!
    
    Leslie

    
    Great ideas, Steve!  
    
    Pam

Boy can I empathize with you on this one...

My son, Michael, is almost 16 (4 months short of it) and his handwriting
is absolutely atrocious.  He refuses to work on it, using arguments that
he'll never have to write on a regular basis.  His spelling is also
extremely bad.  He discounts this by saying that his computer has a spell
checker, so he doesn't need to know how to spell correctly.  My partner
is in support of his using the spell checker, but I am dead against it.

As for homework, he also dashes through it, doing little of it at home
and telling us he does it at school, etc.  But at an open house at the
school the other night Judy and I found that Michael's teachers generally
felt his homework was lacking.  That for class work he only does that part
which is required.  In two of his classes, he doesn't have to hand in
the homework, so he has decided that since it doesn't have to be handed
in, he doesn't do it.

As for things in general, he has always been the type who wanted to do
something ... not to LEARN how to do something, he just wants to be able
to do it.  Now for some things this has worked for him... he taught
himself how to multiply... he just started doing it one day (he is quite
a math wiz), but this doesn't work for things like playing the piano or
doing martial arts.  He isn't willing to put in the time and effort that
is required to learn how to do something.

He has gotten in arguments with his chemistry teacher that certain things
she was teaching just aren't required...

Both Judy and I are back in school nowadays as well (she for her degree
in early childhood, she's going to be a teacher, and me for pre-med) so
we try to present a good example for both doing homework and for preparing
for classes, but I think it has been lost on him.

					Megan

Slight rat-hole:

>>My son, Michael, is almost 16 (4 months short of it) and his handwriting
>>is absolutely atrocious.  He refuses to work on it, using arguments that
>>he'll never have to write on a regular basis.  His spelling is also
>>extremely bad.  He discounts this by saying that his computer has a spell
>>checker, so he doesn't need to know how to spell correctly.  My partner

He sounds like me 17+ years ago.  I do not think there is anything that can be
done about hand-writting at this stage - its too late.  Even if I write REAL
SLOW - my hand writting stinks.  I think it has to do with the fact that my
spelling is really bad and if they can't read it too well, then won't be able
to tell if its misspelled - or is that mispelled?  I have a pocket spell
checker - use it once in a while.

My three sisters all have very good handwritting skills.  It was obvious by the
end of the first grade that I was the odd one in the family.  I was also the
only one that had a different first grade teacher - but at times I can't tell
my father's hand writting from my own :-)

bjm

>He sounds like me 17+ years ago.  I do not think there is anything that can be
>done about hand-writting at this stage - its too late.  Even if I write REAL

BTW - I'm not really talking hand-*writing*, there is no hope for that...
I was actually thinking of his *printing*, which is abyssmal.  For the
open house the other night, he wrote the list of classes/teachers/rooms
so we could visit them.  Most of his entries required major decyphering.

As for spelling, if it were up to me, I would delete the spell checker
from his machine and force him to either learn the words (moderately
simple ones at that) or learn how to look them up...

My feeling about spell checkers is that they are fine for use when you
know how to spell and simply make typos on occasion.  But this is probably
a 'religious' issue.

					Megan

    Megan,
    
    Being a person who learned to type in self-defense by the time I was
    14, I can identify, my printing is illegible to almost anyone.  I do
    have an awful poem to a spell checker around that makes the point that
    spell-checkers are not the greatest.  
    
    Good lluck, thugh.  17 is a really rough age.  
    
    meg