Conference moira::parenting

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but he may not change on this one. 
    My daughter is 5 and still wants us in the same room as she is.  This
    morning the baby woke her up at 5:20 and she didn't fall back asleep. 
    At 7:15 she was a real bear and I suggested she nap while I showered. 
    She agreed, but napped on the bathroom floor!  (She even slept through
    the blow dryer noise...)
    
    That said, your son is still quite young, and has just had a major
    change in his life.  I'm sure he'll get more independent, but you may
    be asking too much right now.
    
    judy

    My son is 7, and is finally outgrowing the part about following me
    around the house.  Unfortunately, store trips minus Joe are still a
    major bone of contention.  Makes birthday/Xmas shopping tough, if you
    know what I mean.  
    
    We are in the midst of *two* major upheavals in our house, too.  We
    just moved from Southern California to Arizona (loss of little friends,
    new school/house/etc.,) and I am also due to deliver boy #2 on Labor
    Day.  (I know, I know - "how appropriate!", etc!!), so I am trying to
    be very patient with him about this, and am alert to any possible
    back-sliding, too.
    
    Basically, you just have to go with it.  Two is a very tender age, and
    it is fairly common for the clinging to start about then.  This is when
    the child develops a fear of abandonment.  He knows, for some reason,
    that you will come home from work each day, but fears your loss at all
    other times.  Be patient, take him with you when you can, put your foot
    down when you must.  It took us from age 2 to age 5 to teach our son
    that he absolutely could not follow us to the bathroom at home (as
    opposed to while out dining or shopping, where he *had* to come with
    us!).
    
    My 42 cents.
    
    M.
    

    We had a song that I sang to my son when he was two and clingy and I
    was leaving him a day-care.  Unlike you, it was only a 2-3 week
    phase.
    
        My mommy comes back,
        She *ALWAYS* comes back to get me.
    
        My mommy comes back,
        She *ALWAYS* comes back, she never would forget me.
    
    He loved the "always" word and sometimes he would bring
    the word up while trying to have a conversation.  I would
    reinforce that I *ALWAYS* would pick him up at the end of 
    the day.  

    When my kids were two-ish, they were fine as long as I was busy. 
    They'd play all around me as I did housework or whatever and would get
    in the way in a sweet kind of way.  The minute I sat down, however,
    they were all over me like a tent.  Which I guess is normal in kids. 
    My mother used to say that whenever she wanted us kids, she'd make
    herself a cup of tea and put her feet up.
    
    Anyway, regarding the garden and everything, how much independence do
    you really want to allow your son at this age?  We have a swing set in
    our backyard, and I monitor the kids closely when they're playing. 
    Same with when they're playing in the basement.  As I wrote elsewhere,
    I can't be everywhere, but I can't park them someplace and leave 'em
    there, either.  There are just too many opportunities for a child, even
    a well-behaved one like your son, to get hurt, write on the walls, etc.  
    
    Especially with the new baby, you may find the way to encourage
    independence is to allow the older son to be dependent.  It's a pain in
    the neck, and it's exhausting, but speaking from my own experience, the
    older child feels very often as if he's being kicked out of the nest. 
    It's nice, too, if you can allow your wife to have one-on-one time with
    the older child while you give her a break from the baby. When our
    daughter was a newborn, I'd get a sitter once in a while so I could
    take our son to the library, bowling, to the park, etc.  
    
    My $05,
    Kate

    
    re: basenoter
    
    I can't answer your question but this brings to mind a question of
    my own.  I hope you don't mind my tagging onto your note.
    
    A couple of weeks ago, at my family reunion, my cousin Robin 
    was there with her 2 yr, 10 month old daughter Stephanie.  There
    were about 22 people at the reunion, including her father and 
    one set of Grandparents and an Aunt and Uncle that she is quite
    familiar with.  Robin and her family arrived on
    Saturday morning and left Sunday afternoon.  Now Stephanie is
    quite shy but I was really surprised to find that she never warmed
    up the entire weekend, even when there were just small groups of
    family around.  Stephanie was very clingy with Robin and wouldn't
    let her out of her sight.  The rest of the family was kind of
    frustrated with the situation because we really didn't get to 
    visit with Robin. 
    
    Lauren, on the other hand, is very friendly, and within a few minutes
    she will go to anyone.  I personally believe that since I've always
    encouraged her to go to other people, that is why she is like that.
    Sometimes, when tired, only Mommy will do, and other times, if I'm
    in her sight, she needs me, but I find that if I hand her off and
    disappear, she will be happy within minutes.  Lauren is in daycare
    full time which I expect also contributes to her ease with strangers.
    
    Stephanie is in daycare full time too and does not have any problems
    getting along there.  In fact, her grandparents said that when Robin
    is not around, she has no problem being with the other people that
    she knows.  But when Robin is there, only Robin will do.
    
    Well, several of us, myself included, tend to think that Robin is
    to blame for Stephanie being the way she is.  It seems to us that
    Robin needs to say no once in a while when Stephanie is clinging.
    There were 5 other people at this reunion that Stephanie knew well,
    including her own father!  It wouldn't be like handing her off to
    a stranger!  I can understand a child being shy but this is just
    too much!
    
    Any opinions?
    
    Karen

    RE : -1
    
    I completely disagree with "Mom's fault". I have heard that too many times 
    and get completely flamed!!! Mommies do like to spend some time without
    a child physically attached to her.
    
    Shaila

    We have a 2 1/2 yr old boy and a 10 month little girl.  Austin used to
    be Mommy's boy, but lately he has turned into a man's man (!) and
    follows my husband around everywhere....I say lately but it's probably
    been about the past six months.
    
    Yes, he's also fine when we both go off to work.  But when Dad's home
    or has to run to the store.. watch out.  It's like my husband has sticky
    paper attached!  I've always heard the first born is much more clingy
    and like a previous noter said 2 is still very young really.  We just
    grin and bear it.  We let Austin tag around with Daddy as much as
    possible but sometimes you do just have to put your foot down, because
    Daddy's need to go off and get some peace and quiet too!   This is
    great fun for me as I get to handle the sobs!
    
    I just can't handle intentionally pushing them off for their
    "independence", it'll come in time (I know, too long of a time!). 
    Right now what seems to help is if Daddy plans a special time with
    Austin, like just the two of them off to the park, or breakfast
    together at their favorite pancake place.  At least when Daddy then
    goes off somewhere, it seems to help if I remind the little guy about
    the special trip he had recently with Daddy.
    
    Isn't this an "experience"!

    Re: last
     I'm usually a read only, but this one prompted me to reply because I
    was a very shy child. No doubt I was clingy and no doubt it
    inconvienced my mother from time to time. I'm grateful she had the
    patience noone else did and humored me thru so that I outgrew it. My
    shyness of strangers was not a reflection of her parenting skills.
    
    My daugher is 2 1/2. Sometimes she'll go to people, sometimes she
    won't. When she feels needy in a crowd of people (strangers or not) I
    let her be needy because she's still very young. Of course it's a
    nusiance when only Mommy will do sometimes and nobody else: but it
    isn't frequent and it's just part of being a Mommy.
    
    Every child is different and I think it sounds a bit judgemental saying you
    believed it's your cousin's fault because her child was shy at one
    family weekend while yours wasn't. The little girl sounds like she's
    quite well adjusted in other cirumstances and was perhaps just having
    an offweekend. She may be outgoing next time you see her. 
    
    It sounded a bit odd to me of why your family thinks the mother is to 
    blame that her two year old was feeling clingy for her mommy in a crowd
    of people she barely knew for a couple of days? Doesn't sound real 
    unusual behavior to me, imho.
    
    In any case, cheers,
    Eileen

Hi,

We had a similar situation with  Shruthi a few months ago.  She was about 18
months old when we went to India for the first time with her.  There were hordes
of relatives waiting to see her..and everyone wanted to hold her, give her a
hug...  Shruthi is a very outgoing kid..she takes a couple of minutes to warm up
to someone..but not really clingy.  Well, when we were in India, we had a party
for over 300 people and she was unbelievably clingy!  She had to be carried all
the time and only by mommy or daddy!  It was an incredible nuisance considering
that we were the hosts for the party...but we had to carry her around everywhere.

Since she is such an outgoing kid, I took this to be that she was scared of
seeing so many people at once. Besides she was in unfamiliar territory.  She was
fine on other occasions in India when fewer people were involved.  She has been
fine here since we got back...she still stays close to mom for a few minutes - I
let her stay close, in a few minutes she is off and running !

I know that in .5's case, the number of people was much less than ours..but it
is still a large number for a small kid!  It could also be that she was just
having an off day!

However, right now we are in the middle of another clingy phase of sorts...if
mommy is around, she has to do everything!  It doesn't matter if daddy is around
and is willing to do it instead..it still has to be mommy!  This is a phase too
that will pass :-)

--Chaya.

    
    In a situation where there are lots of people and lots
    of noise and the baby starts to become "clingy", I like 
    to put myself in the babys shoes.
    
    Here's this little guy/girl surrounded by "big people",
    how would you feel?  Of course he's going to cling to 
    mommy or daddy, that's where they feel safe.  I don't
    know about you, but I always want Patrick to feel safe.
    
    I'm 26 and still intimidated by big crowds and so is my husband.
    Usually what ends up happening at big functions is the 
    three of us end up in a corner having our own little party.
    Wright or wrong, it's how we feel comfortable.  One of 
    us will get up and socialize (take a break) but were
    never far from one another.
    
    I wouldn't be so hard on Robin, she's only doing the best
    she can....aren't we all!!!
    
    my .02
    
    Kristin
    

This is a bit of a hot button for me, because my whole family is on the quiet
side, but...

There is NOTHING WRONG with being quiet, there is NOTHING WRONG with wanting to
be by yourself, there is NOTHING WRONG with feeling uncomfortable in a large
group.  Being "shy" (a word we avoid using) is not something to be corrected,
and is no one's "fault."  Not everyone fits into the same mold.

						Brian

    
Hi, base noter here,

   Why is Adam so clingy to me when he spends all day, and sometimes evening
with his Mum? Aren't wee boys supposed to be clingy to their Mum?

I feel so sorry for him sometimes, for instance when I'm giving Hannah her
bottle at 4am and he drags himself out of bed and crawls downstairs and then
dozes on my arm until it's time to go back upstairs again.

Adam used to be in a cresh (kindergarten) until about two months ago, when
there were allegations of mistreatment made against the employees. Adam was
named as one of the two children involved (he was allegedly tied to a chair and
left outside in the middle of Winter)

Nothing was ever proved and the cresh is now closed and the employees not 
allowed to work with children anymore.

I know some of you will link his clinginess to his experiences in the cresh,
but I'm not convinced that this actually happened to him, if it did, it was
an isolated incident and not ritual mistreatment over a long period of time.

I hope I haven't painted too bad a picture of Adam, he's a really happy child
mixes well with both adults and children, just as long as one of us is there.

If he's off playing with other children, he comes back every 10-15 minutes
just to make sure we're still around.

The recurring theme in most of your replies is that it's a phase and he'll
grow out of it, I'm sure you're right but the sooner the better !


Gerry

 

    Gerry,
    
    When he hits 15 and is never at home, you will miss the velcro stage,
    trust me.  Lolita was a "clingy" child and did not/ still doesn't
    really like crowds, but this hasn't stopped her from interning in a
    National park as a ranger/naturalist and giving tours to large groups
    of people, going to a large university, or flying from the nest at 18
    2000 miles away to go to a small college in Vt for two years.  
    
    I think trying to push a child to drop clingyness probhably creates a
    less secure child than waiting for the next phase to come along.  Soon
    enough they won't ever want to be in the same universe, let alone room
    with you.  
    
    Adam is identifying with you, the most important male role model in his
    life.  Give him some time, and this really will work itself out.  
    
    meg

    
    re: being judgemental.
    
    	The whole reason I asked my question was because I was trying
    	to determine if I was wrong.  Seems maybe I was, however I still
    	don't understand why Robin didn't make Stephanie spend time
    	with Nana or Daddy while she fulfilled her obligations.   She had
        a number of us ticked off because each family was assigned a 
    	meal to cook and Robin planned an elaborate meal then wasn't
     	around to make it... note, the rest of us cooked ahead of time
        to avoid conflicts of this sort.  I think the friction of this
    	situation is why people felt Robin was a fault for Stephanies
    	shyness.  
    
    	I also think Robin feels guilty about working full time and gives
    	everything she has to Robin.... I wonder what is left over for her?
    
    	I was also trying to find out if a shy person is a product of
    	their environment or if they are just born that way.  I'm pleased
    	that Lauren is outgoing and I hope that she remains that way so
    	I'm asking if there are tactics to keep her from becoming shy.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	Karen
    

    
       Karen,
    
       Just a few of my observations. I have a feeling there's a lot
    more to the mother than the problem with her child shyness. If she
    couldn't make a meal ahead of time, I don't believe it had anything
    to do with the child. She could have made it while the child was
    sleeping, so what I'm trying to say is that there's probably more
    issues here than the child. 
    
       I think that shyness can either be "natural" or a "product
    of the environment" depending on the individual and the
    situation that they were brought up with. I have the feeling people
    see that there's a "problem" here and are pulling straws to try
    and figure it out. It also sounds like this "problem" has a lot
    of unsettled problems in the family as a whole. Just my opinion.
    I may be wrong.
    
        As for a child of any age being "forced" to stay with other
    people because a parent wants the child to be outgoing, or for
    whatever reason. I can understand how "trying and exhausting" it
    can be for the mother or father. But, in my opinion I don't think
    that the child should be "forced" if they are crying hysterically.
    Maybe a solution can be found somehow that will ease it, but I
    think it should be done with the child's feelings in mind.
    
       I guess I worry too much about how much "trauma" is brought
    about when something like a child shyness is too much of an
    issue. If someone doesn't want to be around someone else, then
    as an adult we don't have to. But, when a child doesn't want
    to be with someone else people try to force it. I know people
    don't neccessarily do this to hurt the child, more that they're
    trying to "mold" the child or something. Of course children need
    encouragement to become more assertive or social, but I don't
    think it should be forced on them.
    
       Rosie
    
       

    
    I agree with Rosie.  It sounds like there's something more going on
    here other than the concern with the childs shyness.  Maybe there
    is something going on in Robin's life that you don't know about -
    something that could be causing her not fulfill her obligations -
    other than the baby's not willing to go with family.....
    
    >> Tactics to prevent your child from becoming shy....
    
    You make it sound as if there is something wrong with 
    a child being shy.  Shyness is a part of someones personality,
    it's just the way they are.  It's great that your child
    is outgoing, but if she weren't would that be so bad?!
    
    Children are children and they go through so many changes
    that if you close your eyes you may miss something.....
    
    Another .02 (that now makes .04)  *8^)
    
    Kristin
    

    
    I was a very shy as a child and still am although when your an adult I
    don't think your referred to as "shy" but less assertive or
    non-dominant or something like that.  If I'm at a party or large
    gathering, I never jump into conversations, I just sit back and let
    everyone else talk.
    
    I can remember my father hitting and grounding me for not talking to
    the eye dr. at my appointment.  I knew that after each dr. appointment,
    I would get a "beating" from my father, but that still wouldn't make me
    talk.  I can't even imagine myself now as a parent ever hitting Alyssa
    or grounding her for being shy (which she really isn't).
    
    I guess I'm trying to say is that you can't change a child (at least I
    don't think you can) from being shy to not being shy - and pushing the
    issue I'm sure make matters only worse.  I would say the best thing to
    do for your child is make them feel secure in a big crowd and reassure
    them that your always there for them....encouraging them little by
    little 
    
    Sometimes, I wish my daughter was more clingy, especially when it came
    to the grocery store - she has no fear

    
    Both of my sons are (present tense for the 1 year old)/were
    (past tense for the 5 year old) "momma's boys" and I know that 
    I am also criticized as being the cause of their clinginess.
    This really bothers me because although I really would like to 
    be able to go to the bathroom alone 8^), I'm not comfortable 
    denying their *needs* for comfort and time together.  I also 
    know that it is a temporary need that they will outgrow (from 
    experience); all too soon you won't be able to get them to sit 
    on your lap or hug  8-(.   
    
    When people comment on a child's behaviour and/or the parent's 
    "style", I find it can make a not-so-good situation worse. This 
    also happens when people compare children's behaviours and
    personalities.   I think it makes the parent more tense, which 
    the child picks up on, and the situation snowballs.   I also think 
    that some mothers (myself included) would prefer to accomodate a 
    child's needs when with company rather than engage in a battle of 
    wills or force a child to do something that he/she doesn't want to 
    do - maybe right, maybe wrong, ymmv.
    
    One last thing I need to comment on - I would prefer to *NOT*
    have my very young children be outgoing and/or go to anyone.
    I want to keep them 8^).
    
    cj/ 
      

    
    
    I'm not Robin, nor do I play her on tv :-), perhaps your family might
    ask Robin directly why she didn't fulfill her obligation to cook dinner
    (because it sounds to me from reading your note that *this* was the
    core issue, not whether or not a child is shy). I certainly can't
    secondguess why she did or did not do so ahead of time what she was
    expected to, especially when I wasn't present and I don't live her
    life. :-)
    
    The only points I wanted to make was to guard against labeling and
    looking at a "shy" child as a negative personality trait. Why do people
    think that it is? It isn't. And to not assign blame to the parent if
    her child isn't naturally outgoing in a social circumstance. The only
    way I got thru being shy as a child was by being supported and
    encouraged; brute forcing me into situations had the opposite effect.
    
    cheers,
    Eileen
    

    
    Hmmmmmmm .... well, I never thought much of it till reading this
    string (I just do it), but Jason (7) is very clingy to me, still.  Not
    ALL the time, but when he is, it's like I can't even come up for air! 
    Jonathan's almost 2, and he's very clingy.  In Jason's words ... "It's
    like he's glued to you or something!" ..and trust me, it feels that
    way.  His latest 'trick' is if he's eating dinner, and I sit down to
    eat, he wants to get up and sit on my lap.
    
    Well, I can honestly say, that with both Jonathan and Jason, I find
    that they get clingy when I haven't spent any decent time with them. 
    AND if they're just in cranky moods.  They're "in my face", as I call
    it (since I'm one of those mothers that DON'T like having a kid 'glued
    to me' all the time) when they're not getting what THEY need.
    
    So, if it's at ALL possible, what I do is try to STOP and take the time
    to be with them.  And I find that if I CAN stop and sit and pay
    undivided attention to them for a decent amount of time (30-45 mins),
    then THEY get recharged, and are able to go back to being independent
    again.  I've reassured them that they ARE important and special to me,
    and I do love them.  Sometimes they need more time - sometimes 5 mins
    is enough.  But what it ALWAYS amounts to, is that after I STOP with my
    stuff, and pay attention to THEY'RE stuff, it lets us both get back to
    our OWN stuff much sooner, and much MUCH happier.
    
    I think they're pretty clear in what they want/need, and if a child is
    very clingy, to me, I think it's because they aren't getting the sort
    of attention that they need, or they have some other need/fear that
    they're not able to handle.  Geez, since when is NEEDING someone,
    somebody's "fault"?!  
    
    Isn't "supporting each other" what a family is all about?  Even if
    those needs are inconvenient sometimes?  When it's the middle of the
    night, you need to sleep.  But if your child is sick, and needs you,
    you put your own needs aside and go to your child.  Emotional needs
    shouldn't be treated as less important - lest you want your child to
    believe their emotions aren't important.
    
    That's what I TRY to practice.  A lot of the time I'm too busy, but at
    least I'm aware of what's going on, and can make a point to MAKE time
    at a later date when I HAVE time to give.  And even that - just being
    able to say to Jason "Look, I don't have time to sit with you right
    now, but after dinner I'll be happy to play that with you!" - he can
    deal with that, and still feels 'heard' and cared for.
    
    Back to the basenoter ... maybe Adam just misses Daddy??  I know my
    boyfriend who has a 4-yr old son, that he only sees every other w/end.
    Well, during the week, that kid could care less if anyone was around
    "All" the time.  But when he's with his daddy on those weekends, you
    can't pry the two of them apart.  I think that Greg just tries to make
    up for all the time he misses Daddy, inside of 2 days.  I don't see
    anything unhealthy about it - sad yes, and sometimes aggravating,but I
    think perfectly normal.  And I REALLY don't think Greg (or my two boys)
    would feel better if we told them "NO!"  
    
    Personalize it ... if you went to give hubby a hug, how would you feel
    if he said "KAREN!  NO!!!  You hug me TOO much!  Now, go play with your
    toys and leave me alone for a while!!".  Think it'd help?  Or would it
    help for him to stop and give you an extra special hug and tell you he
    cared a lot, but was busy right now, and "maybe you can help me?" or
    something?  Or "we'll cuddle later" .... it would probably make you
    feel okay to leave him alone for a while.
    
    Just my rambling thoughts (but boy, I'll tell ya, if I don't get some
    time to spend with Jonathan soon, we're both going to go bonkers! (-;
    (-;)
    
    YMMV
    Patty
    

    Getting back to Gerry's question, the birth of a second child often
    "solidifies' the father's relationship with the older child.  I think
    this happens especially when the new baby is the opposite sex of the
    older child.  It sure happened with my son and my husband after our
    daughter was born.
    
    Remember, too, that even though your son is with Mum all day, you are
    new, different, and exciting to him when you walk through the door at
    the end of the day!  You are completely different from his mother, so
    you can probably see why he is so interested in you and wants to spend
    as much time as he can with you.  Especially if you are in a situation
    where Daddy comes home at 6:30 and the little fellow is in bed by 7:30
    (if not before).  I agree, getting up with you at 4 a.m. to give Hannah
    her bottle is not much fun, and I'm sure you're worried about your son
    not getting enough sleep.  If it goes on for much longer, or if your
    son starts not wanting to do things he usually enjoys, I'd call your
    pediatrician.  He may still be having unpleasant feelings from the
    alleged abuse at the creche.    
    
    I watched a call-in TV show some time ago (probably when I was on my
    first maternity leave) on child development.  The host asked the
    pediatrician, "Why do kids do what they do?"  The pediatrician replied,
    "Who the hell knows?"
    
    Offering cold comfort,
    Kate