Conference moira::parenting

    
    I can't really comment about this, as my daughter is only 19 months --
    but isn't it strange how if the other kids know your smart -- your
    labelled a geek or something like that.  It happened when we were
    growing up and it is still happening -- the more things change, the
    more they stay the same.
    
    It sounds like your son takes pride in how well he is doing (until
    recently) and I would keep reassuring him that turning in the best
    quality work will only benefit him and it doesn't matter what the other
    kids think, etc etc (ya, easier said than done)!  Good luck!
    
    

    I think it's great you got to the root of the problem.  Bullying is
    emotionally dangerous because it makes the victim feel so worthless. I
    handled it the same way you did, I explained how bad it must be for the
    bullier at home and how he wants to get back at others for it. How his
    parents probably bully him, evocking some sympathy and understanding for 
    the bullier.  Now the bully is the victim, and the victim can feel more
    self worth and realize that he is not the one with the problem, the
    bully is. My kids are teens now, it was a long time ago, but this
    really worked well and they have become very warm understanding people.
    
    I wouldn't worry about the messy homework, it will fix itself when  
    his self worth is restored.
    
    New to this notesfile,
    Sharon
    

    
    re.0
    
    Once in the while, when my daughter was your son's age,
    she would turn in messy papers. She had to alphabetize
    her word list and when she missed one word, erasing became
    a nightmare. I would comment on the condition of the papers
    and if she tried hard but got frustrated due to mistakes,
    I would let it go, since it was not intentional. Seeing
    how tedious it could be for her, I taught her to make
    rough drafts, so the final copy would be neat. She is
    in 4th grade now and once in a great while, that still 
    happens!
    
    re .0 and .1
    
    As far as the teasing is concerned, is your son involved
    in sports and other hobbies? My daughter has always been
    an A student. She never got picked on as a geek because
    she also does very well in her extra-curriculum activities.
    She is as much a jog as a geek and she is as much an artsy
    as a jog!!! When she was a tiny, we knew she was wicked 
    smart and we were determined to teach her to apply her
    intelligence in as many areas as possible and have fun
    doing that. We never push her, but rather expose her to
    various disciplines. At one point, about 1st grade or so,
    she did get the idea from other kids that nerds were to
    be made fun of, even though she was not labelled a nerd.
    I sat down with her to define the word "nerd" and after a
    few minutes, we concluded that her mom and dad could be nerds
    per her description! Oops, she thought, mom and dad were
    cool! She ditched her nerd jokes in zero time. ;-) And oh,
    how can we make fun of people who invented the TV, Game
    Boy and whatever-high-tech-toy-the-kid-is-into!!! ;-)
    
    
    Eva 
    
                                                         

    I recently took a parenting class offered by the guidance counselors at
    my children's elementary school.  I gained a great deal of respect for
    these women and their work.  One of the things they talked about was
    working with children about handling situations very much like what you
    describe.  If you child's school has guidance counselors, it may be
    worth a call to see if they can offer any strategy.

    
    Yes, .2 brought up a good point. I did tell my daughter that
    kids who make fun of others, who bully others, were really
    the unfortunate results of irresponsible and ignorant parenting.
    She understood that and instead of being intimidated by the 
    bullies, she felt bad for them. 
    
    
       
    Eva

    Re. a few back -- Yes, he's involved in soccer, loves it, and is
    turning into a good defenseman and a good sport.  
    
    Last night, I checked his homework.  Appearance-wise, it was a little
    better, still not where it could be, but I focused on the improvement,
    not on "you still have a long way to go."  I did ask him to correct
    a couple of mistakes, which he did.  I also made a big show of hanging
    up his most recent (and neat!!!) weekly spelling test on the 'fridge,
    and applauding the effort.  Like I said, I don't want to turn this into 
    a battle, but I have explained to him that it's easier to develop good
    habits now than to break bad ones later.  
    
    There is another method to my madness: One of the second-grade teachers
    is pretty tough -- a real no-excuses type.  I want him to know that
    what first grade teachers will accept becomes unacceptable further up
    the line.
    
    Finally, I've decided that if my son is in the same classroom next year
    with this little Timothy critter, I am going to have him (James)
    transferred into another class.  James had -- or at least he said he had
    -- problems with Timothy in kindergarten and now in 1st grade.  I
    figure, enough already.  What do you noters think of this idea?
    
    Thanks to all who have written so far.  I appreciate your support. I
    was beginning to feel like I was leaning too hard on my son.

    
    re .6
    
    I would hestitate to move my kid to another classroom because
    of a troublemaker, if the teacher is a good one. Why should
    my kid has to dance around this bully? On top of that, there may
    be yet other bullies in other classrooms! I would inform the teacher 
    of past problems and ask the teacher to watch out for future problems.
    If anyone should be moved, it should not be your son! Your son
    should be taught to stand his ground ;-), IMO.
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    So how do other kids know how well done a homework assignment or test
    was done by other kids? Either they sit near enough to see the results
    or either the kid or teacher makes this visible (peer pressure tactics
    to 'help' the non-conformers conform?)?  You might ask your son's
    teacher how she has the kids hand in homework or how she passes it back
    to the kids....Doing this face-down will help keep these things
    private....It should be enough that the kid and teacher knows how much
    progress is being made; Why make it so other kids can know too?

Instead of waiting to see if your kid is assigned the same class as the
bully, talk to the current teacher and the principal now and ask that
they be put in different classes (explain the situation).

Our son's first grade teacher told us recently that she and the other first
grade teachers are getting together to recommend which kids go to which 
second grade teacher, based on teaching styles and learning methods, etc.
 
   Carol

    Don't just talk to the teacher, bring her a short, polite letter
    detailing your request and your reasoning.  Copy the the principal,
    too.  If you just talk to the teacher, whose job is to see the best in
    every child, you may find yourself bulldozed by her good intentions,
    and wind up with your child suffering another year with this kid.
    
    I did this last year regarding a new boy in school who attached himself 
    to my son.  This kid is (a) an absolute wild-child -- very bright but no 
    attention span (teachers think he's ADHD, but his parents refuse to even 
    discuss the possibility...), no respect for authority or for school 
    expectations, and tends to suck all his little buddies in to that 
    behavior with him and (b) somewhat violent when not getting what he 
    wants.  He had left some *big* bruises on my son on several occasions 
    that Joe decided he'd rather do his school work or rather play with 
    some other children.  Since my little guy is actually rather big for his 
    age, topping his friends by a good two inches and sometimes as much 
    as 15-20 lbs., we have been careful to teach him to fight back with 
    words more than with his body, so he'd just stand there and "take it"
    more often than not.
    
    The result of writing and talking to the teacher was great -- Joe wound 
    up *out* of the little terror's class and *in* with the two boys he 
    was close to *before* the wild-child arrived in his kindergarten class.  
    No more constant school problems (intermittent, yes; constant, no!) and 
    no more giant bruises.  In addition, my complaint brought about a
    serious interview with the principal, teacher and parents of the
    wild-child, which, I'm told, was pretty productive.  The parents still
    refuse to acknowledge that this is more than a normal stage
    their son is going through, but at least they are more willing to
    accept the consequences of the child's behavior (he winds up staying in
    at recess, lunches, and after school a lot and also spends his share of
    time in the principal's office...)
    
    M.
    

    
    Yesterday, I spoke with my son's teacher to find out what teacher
    he would have next year and when I looked at the class list
    he was put in the same class as another boy that he has been
    with since kindergarten (three years now).  My son is normally
    very quiet and studious but when these two get together they 
    are wild.  It has effected his studies all year.  So, I 
    asked the teacher if we could get him into another class and
    she told me to go talk to the office and let them know about
    my concerns and they changed the roster immediately.  Now, he
    will have the teacher he wanted (and that his 2nd grade teacher
    said was her first choice for him next year) and I don't have
    to worry about it all summer.
    
    His teacher said that parents have a lot more clout when it come
    to requesting teachers than having their current teacher request
    it.  So give it a try if you want.  I didn't want to leave the
    matter up to next years teacher to deal with, whether she would
    be a good teacher or not is not the point.  I just don't want
    it to be an issue.
    
    Pam

    School policies vary.  At my son's grade school, the class lists are posted
    at the end of August, the day before school starts, and parents are not
    allowed to request changes.  (That's the policy - I bet there are
    occasional exceptions.  But I can sympathize with the school administration
    that dealing with requests from the parents of 1000 kids would be
    an impossible task.  The teachers do put a lot of effort into figuring out
    what class each kid will be best suited for in the next grade.)

							cheryl

    re: -1
    
    My son's school is the same way -- rosters are posted two days before
    school starts.  However, because we have 2-grade classes throughout the
    school (1st/2nd, 3rd/4th and 5th/6th), the administration tries hard to
    keep teachers and students together for the full two years.  Last week,
    they sent home a form to fill out, asking us to indicate whether Joe
    would definitely be back next year, might be back, or definitely wouldn't 
    be back in the school or district.  This helps them to plan for the
    following year's classes, and helps ensure your teacher-choice. There
    is a space for comments, and the instructions note that if you have a
    reason for *not* wanting to stay with that teacher, to say so!
    
    Regards,
    
    M.
    

    
    
             Homework and Responsibility
    
    I am looking for advice on how to help my kids to be more responsible
    in doing their homework on time and without being told a million
    times.
    
      I have 4 daughters and next fall they will all be in elementary
    school. 5th grade, 4th grade, 1st grade and kindergarten.
    I have the kids involved in some extracurricular activities on 2 week 
    nights and I am also involved in activities in the evening. My husband
    works 2nd shift 4 nights a week, but he is working from home. I try to
    let the kids set their own time to do the homework, especially the
    2 older ones but it just isn't working out well. I am always asking
    them if the work is done, if not when are they going to do it. Also the
    quality of the work sometimes is not acceptable and I want them to do
    it over and that takes more time. My 2nd daughter( who will be in 4th
    grade next year) is what I call an ATNA "All Talk No Action" She will
    agree to do her homework and then she slips away and I find her 
    watching TV. So I am always after her to complete her work.
    
       Anyway, over the years the amount of homework is just going to
    increase. I need to get a handle on it now or else I will just spend 
    to much time trying to get the homework done.
    
       I have tried the usual, you can't go here if the homework isn't
    done, you can't watch TV, etc....
       My kids are fairly responsible for their chores but the homework
    seems to be a big battle....
    
     Does anyone have some tried and true methods to make this a smoother
    process in my life....
    
                                    Thanks,
                                       Jill
    

    Re: .14
    
    Hi,
    
    I have a 5th grader and I find I have to tell her when to do her
    homework.  She's pretty good about getting it done, sometimes the quality
    leaves something to be desired.  Getting her to redo anything is near
    impossible.  Quite often she will do her Tuesday spelling assignment on
    the weekend prior, so as to free up time during the week, this helps
    a lot.  I won't hold my breath for the day that she will actually plan
    on picking up a newpaper for her bi-weekly article assignment.  I
    pretty much have to help her to remember what she needs in advance.
    
    Homework doesn't just restrict their free time but also the parents!  I
    can't do anything several weeks prior to a book report being due.  Oh
    well it's all part of the parenting package.
    
    My advice since you have so many kids to keep track of and a busy
    schedule is to go ahead and monitor when they do their homework, I
    don't believe that this will hinder their learning to be more
    responsible.  After all in the working world we all have to live by
    schedules that are for the good of the whole group.
    
    Marianne

Getting homework done is the child's responsibility not the parent's. 

In other countries, homework undone is just that homework, undone, and
not an impact on final grades etc. so the answer there is easy ... if it's
not done they face the teacher's wrath and then it's up to the child!

When it involves lost marks, then my reaction is still to let them face
the teacher's music, and see what happens, although I'm not sure I like
the consequences public school end up putting on as well!  This is one of
many reasons we have started homeschooling our eldest!

Stuart

    
    Get into a routine.  My son is in 3rd grade, so not quite as
    old as your girls, but ever since Kindergarden we set up a 
    routine that homework is done the minute he walks in the door.
    If I'm watching TV, it gets turned off.  Nathan sets up his 
    books on the coffee table and sits down to get to work.  It
    has worked really well for us to just have Homework time as
    a given.  There are no arguments or compromises....homework?
    Do it now.
    
    In the beginning, it was tough to get him to realize the 
    benefits of doing it sooner rather than later until I 
    left it up to him one time and he forgot all weekend, when
    he went to school on Monday and didn't have his homework
    done he got in trouble.  Now he just does it.
    
    Interestingly, he got an award at school for bringing in 
    every homework assignment completed on time.  Only one
    other student in the class received this award.  I 
    thought that odd that out of 25 students, only 2 were
    able to complete every item of homework assigned.
    
    Hope this helps, I have a feeling that 4th and 5th graders
    are a little more headstrong than 3rd graders are and I
    may be facing the same problem you are in the not too 
    distant future. 
    
    Pam
    
    P.S.  Just an interesting anecdote.  A few weeks ago Nathan
    decided to do his homework outside in the backyard.  He
    came in the house all upset because Max, our dog, grabbed
    his homework and ate it.  He was so upset because he just
    knew that the teacher would not believe him if he told her
    that the dog ate his homework.  So he had to do it over again.

    
    
    	A data point - I came from another country, if my homework was 
    undone more than once, my mother got to see the teacher *and* the 
    principal, not a very pleasant thought - enough to keep me in line! 
    My mother told me that she made sure all our homework was done 
    properly and helped us with tests and exams until we entered middle 
    school. 
    
    	With that upbringing in mind, I checked all my daughter's home
    work everynight through 3rd grade. Even now, in the 5th grade, she
    does her homework in the kitchen, while I am cooking and doing 
    chores, so that she can ask me questions anytime. I don't go over
    her work anymore, but I do proofread her stories upon her request
    and I re-explain complex math concepts when in doubt. 
    
    	My husband and I have activities in the evenings too, but we 
    make sure that one of us is home to help with homework. She is 
    never home alone doing homework, we don't trust the public school
    system that much ;-). For certain, we'd like to do more adult things,
    but since we accepted the responsibility of parenthood 11 years ago, 
    we just have to wait a few more years for more free time. I think
    the elementary school years are very important, since it is the
    time for the children to develop good studying skills and to learn
    about work ethics and discipline, so as to establish a solid
    foundation. My husband and I *own* the responsibility of educating
    our daughter, the school is just a hirehand per say, we are still
    the bosses. It is certainly time consuming and restraining, but if 
    we do it right the first time around, we won't have to spend the rest 
    of our lives correctly our mistakes, we hope!
    
                                                    
    Eva
    

	I grew up in Massachusetts and my parents always expected my homework
	to be done neatly, and on time.  Homework usually always counted as
	a direct part of the grade.  And of course indirectly, in the way
	that if you don't do your homework you usually don't understand
	the topic enough to do well on test, etc.

	I remember that probably in the early years 1-3 grades, there wasn't
	much homework, spelling mostly and the rule was I had to do it as 
	soon as I got home.  But in 4th grade homework started taking a little
	longer and I wanted to go outside and play as soon as I got home, while
	it was still light out.  So my parents let me do it right after supper.
	There were a few times I messed up and didn't get it done it time
	(past bedtime or whatever) and then I had to revert back to doing it	
	right after school for some period of time (a few days or a week)
	Then they'd let me try the after supper time again.

	They always checked my homework, Dad was the main checker and it
	better be neat!! I remember writing out my long division again, because
	I had erased too much on that math paper and it didn't look neat
	or I had put a hole in the paper.  Some nights it was late, like 8:30
	that I finished up.  But I wasn't allowed to turn in sloppy work.
	My mom usually helped with typing book reports, etc as we got
	older (but I would guess that wouldn't be a problem with computers now)
	And when my dad wasn't home, my mom checked the homework.  I think
	it prepared me for good study habits later in my school years.  I
	guess they stopped checking when we entered junior high or high shcool
	as a rule.  But even until Junior year I always had them review my
	reports and often had my dad check my math.  Because then I knew I
	was always going to get a good grade.

	Good luck, our daughters are 3 yrs old and 1yr old, so we haven't
	hit this problem yet.

	Karen T.

    
    Gee- they'll tell you??  I have a hard time getting Jason to tell me if
    he HAS homework.  Though once I find out, he's pretty good about doing
    it.
    
    Chris is in 4th grade now, and he doesn't usually have much homework. 
    Something small almost every night, but a 5-10 min thing.  Homework is
    done (honestly) as soon as I remember to remind them to do it.  Gets
    interesting - some nights I TOTALLY forget.  Luckily some of those
    nights they remember.  Usually by bedtime they remember.  If it's too
    late, I wake them up early, to finish.  If it's late, and we realized
    it, and it's difficult homework, I usually have them do it in the
    morning - trying to get Chris to think about math at 8pm, is just a
    no-win situation.  He's WAY too tired, and I'm waiting for him to get
    off to bed so I can get my stuff done.  If I wake him 20 mins earlier,
    he's fresh and can think better (and needs less help!).  
    
    A friend of his, has the rule a previous noter mentioned - do it at
    home, the second you walk in the door.  No questions asked.  This kid
    goes right home after school, so interrupting "light" time, isn't a
    problem.  Chris and Jason have the option of doing their homework at
    the Boys' Club after school, or risk not going out (if I remember right
    away!) till it's done, when they get home.  
    
    I'm glad this came up - I think I'll post a note somewhere (In big bold
    letters on poster board!) to remind them of their homework, and we'll
    start doing it as soon as they come home.  Then, if they want to go
    out, they'll (hopefully) learn to do it at the Boys' Club.
    
    If they're coming home right after school, they should have plenty of
    time, and have it still be "fresh" to be able to do it.  Sometimes
    Chris will stay in school a little late, and finish it at his desk.
    
    FWIW - I *ALWAYS* check all their homework, and try to be sure it's
    neat.  Getting either of them to do something over is impossible
    though.  I like to know what they're doing, and it gives me a way of
    seeing if they "get it" or not.  
    
    I dread the days when their homework gets tougher!  ESPECIALLY
    Geography/History!  I stunk at those, and won't be much help .... maybe
    I'll finally be able to LEARN the stuff, through the kids, eh?  (-:
    
    

    
      Thanks for all the replies so far...
    
      I talked to the school guidance counselor yesterday and he
    recommended that I read a book called "Ending the Homework Hassle" 
    by John Rosemond. I am about 1/3 of the way thru and he has some
    good ideas so far. The counselor wants to get together with me
    after I have read the book to discuss different ideas.
    
    
    In the book the author lists the ABC's of Effective Homework 
    Management:
    
    "A" stands for all by myself. 
       The child does his homework in a private personal 
    place, preferably at a desk in his room. This physical
    arrangement helps define homework as the child's 
    responsibility but also helps parents resist the urge
    to hover.
    
    "B" stands for backoff
    
    You, the parent stay out of the child's homework unless
    the child asks you to get involved.
    
    "C" stands for call it quits at a reasonable hour
    
    Set an upper time limit on homework. The child should be responsible 
    for deciding when to start the homework, but parents should decide 
    when to call it quits. The deadline should be consistent, for
    example 8pm. 
    
    This rules sound kind of abrupt by themselves but in the book
    the author goes into great detail about each "rule"
    
    The 7 Hidden Values of Homework
    
    responsibility
    autonomy
    perserverance
    time management
    initiative
    self-reliance
    resourcefulness
    
    
    I will try to implement the procedures/suggestions and let you know
    my results....
    
    
    Jill

    I haven't been in this file for a while, so I'm just seeing this topic. 
    My soon-to-be 3rd grader is the *worst* when it comes to homework.  He
    absolutely does not care.  We were exposed to the concepts in -.1 when
    Joe was in Kindergarten, as his old school district really expected
    childred to be ultra responsible ( a responsible 5.5 year old??  They
    must have been delirious!).  We tried all that stuff -- a consistent
    start time, alone in his room at his desk, etc.  If sent to his room,
    all the toys presented something MUCH more interesting than homework.  
    
    I tried at the table while I cooked dinner.  The food burned and so did
    my temper.  Every fourth second, Joe had a question, generally
    amounting to the get-mom-to-tell-you-the-answer method of homework
    completion.  
    
    I tried sitting with him - he'd push back and argue his way through the
    assignment until writing 15 spelling words 3x each was taking 3 or more
    HOURS and I was taking two fiorenal!
    
    The only thing that ever worked (and then only temporarily) was having
    him select his own dedicated homework spot (the craft table in the
    family room) and doing the homework immediately after having a quick
    after-school snack and drink.  This is a major necessity here, since
    the walk home is VERY warm and dry much of the school year.  The rule
    was no TV, no company, no Toys, no fun until the work was done.  
    
    This functioned for about 5 weeks at the beginning of last school year, 
    and then baby brother Jake was born.  Not doing the homework became a
    terrific way to get attention away from the baby, and all the old/bad
    habits resurfaced.  School starts in about 4 weeks here, and we will be
    returning to the old rules of no TV etc until done.  I'll let ya'll
    know how it works out then.  I'm hoping for better success this year,
    since he is quite used to having Jake around now.
    
    Regards,
    
    M.