Conference moira::parenting

    I disagree that retaliation is the appropriate behaviour.

    The rule for our kids is that you use words and if that
    does not work, you get the help of a grownup.

    You do not hit back.
    bob

    The suspension (while it seems harsh to me) may have been within the
    boundaries of the school policies (as set forth in a handbook given to
    parents at the beginning of the school year?--ours is).  Expulsion for
    *any other offense* also seems harsh to me.
    
    I agree with you about the phone call; I agree with Bob (-.1) on using
    words rather than retaliation.
    
    Leslie

    I have to agree with .1 on this.  If he was in the bus line there
    should have been a driver or other adult near by.  Letting the adult
    know what was going on and having said adult deal with this to me is
    much better, as violence can easily escalate into more violence and can
    lead to bigger and better weapons than fists being involved.  
    
    As you can see from the phone calls and hangups there is already
    escalation going on.  I think teaching nonconfrontational techniques
    and the ability to walk away from problem kids is a better way to
    handle this, especially when there is supervision nearby.
    
    Sigh, I have been working with my Brownie troop on this, as we do have
    a child who believes violence and intimidation solves everything and
    doesn't understand using talking and her (very sharp) mind to handle
    conflict.  
    
    meg

    I wonder though, was your son able to walk away.  That is, is
    he still up against the wall perhaps being threatened by the
    other kid?  I do agree with the suggestion that an adult should
    have been notified, but at the moment he hit the other kid -
    what was going on?
    
    I mean, we can all say what we think he "should" have done,
    but hey, I'm up against a wall and someone isn't letting me go,
    perhaps about to hit me - can't say I'd just walk away.  I have
    walked away from fights when in school, but the ability to walk
    away was there.  Course, I did have one girl whacking me off the
    back of the head all the way down the street, but I wouldn't hit
    back.  Had I been cornered....different story.  If I could yell
    for help to someone nearby, yes I would.
    
    						cj *->
                                            

    
    I agree with .1 that retaliation is not acceptable. Adults
    should be in charge and help to resolve the conflict in a
    constructive way. Kids need to learn that fighting back is
    not going to solve any problem and could get themselves
    seriously hurt or even killed when they use this approach
    as adults. Losing one's life to keep one's pride does not
    make sense.  
    
    As far as the phone call is concerned, if I were you, I
    would be waiting outside the guidance counselor's door
    first thing the following morning. I would take the 
    initiative to straighten this out. I would not expect the
    school to handle the disciplinary issues, since I believe
    it is the parents' job.
    
    For the prank calls, call the parents of this boy, and
    apologize. I know your son did not start it, but he was
    responsible for choosing to hit the other kid, he could
    have walked away. It doesn't matter if other kid and/or
    parents apologize in return, they are responsbile for
    their actions and your family for yours. You still have a
    chance to help your son settle this conflict in a 
    positive way.
    
    
    Eva

I agree with .0. I wouldn't have a problem with my kid defending 
themselves. 

I will probably encourage my child to take some sort of self defense training 
also. I remember having to defend myself in school, and when I did that 
pretty much put an end to it. Yes, things have changed since the 80's and 
violence has escaleted to using weapons - it's scary, but your self esteem 
can really take a beating if the kids see one kid beating on you and you 
taking it, or telling on them. I think that often makes it worse. I think 
most kids pick on kids that wont fight back, that are afraid and they 
can humiliate. I think most kids will lay off if they think they 
might get hurt if this kid decides to fight back.  Maybe I'm wrong.

About the principle, well, I agree - I think that she should have called 
you to discuss and handle the situation, not have your son call. I would 
be down there so fast and let her know that too.

When I was in school, if 2 kids were in a fight, both kids were 
suspended, it didn't matter who started it, so I agree he needed to be 
punished. I would definitely find out the policy re: throwing the kids out 
of school with another offense.

Call the phone company and see if they can do something about the kid 
calling and hanging up. 

Donna

    What if the parents don't care!   I grew up in a      
    neighborhood where the parents were just as likely to
    threaten to punch YOU for complaining about their kids!   
    
    This kid is not too concerned about the suspension if
    he's still making prank phone calls.   Call the school
    and demand that they speak to his parents directly.  You
    should also call the parents and tell them how you
    know that their child is making these prank phone calls
    and remind them that it's against the law - even for
    children.
                                                     
    If that doesn't work call the police!
    
    My husband has requested that we take the "don't hit"
    approach with our children.   We've taught Katherine to
    yell "NO!" and tell an adult when another child hits
    her.   In the last month, I've seen Katherine (all of 2
    years old) get hit or pushed to the floor by other
    children at GYMBOREE.  I've been shocked to see the
    parents of these other children help my daughter
    off the floor and hand her to me crying.  NOTHING was
    said to any of these children about not hitting or
    pushing.  I, of course, told Katherine that the other
    child was not being careful or nice and that I was
    sorry that they hurt her.   Maybe we need to start a
    new note on this topic...      
    
    What do you do when the other child's parents don't care?
    
    

    What do you do when the other parent doesn't care?
    
    Punch the parent!  (Just kidding, just kidding! no flaming please!)
    
    					cj *->
    

    re .7
    
    This is a toughie and one I have been dealing with with my Brownies for
    some time.  We aren't your run-of-the-mill, stereotypical, middle
    class, suburban troop.  Our kids come from a very mixed and often
    unstable background, with one in unofficial foster care, as her father
    is in jail and mother is in town maybe once a month or so.  (Long
    story, but Lynn almost has guardianship of the kids now)  
    
    Our first rule, which shocked two of the kids, is NO ONE has the right
    to punch, kick, grab or gang up on them.  We also have a rule that when
    there is an arguement, all involved have a chance to speak their piece
    uninterrupted.  amazing how much of this stuff is caused by
    misunderstanding the other child.  
    
    As for parents not caring?  Unfortunately the most difficult children I
    work with are also those whose parents seem to consider after-school
    activities as an extra baby-sitter and can't be bothered with their
    kids at any level.  I try to hang onto these kids as maybe they will be
    the children I will most likely make a difference to.
    
    meg

    More often than not, retaliation gets you in more
    trouble than nothing.

    Someone pushes you, and you push back.

    When someone pushes you, probably no one sees it.  But
    it attracts attention...and some teacher looks your way and
    sees you push back.  And you try to say 'Yeah, but he pushed
    me first'.  Sure....

    Hi,
    
    Thanks for all the responses.  I agree that fighting is NOT the
    answer, but in some situations it can not be avoided.
    
    I think in this situation there was no on adult around.  My son
    has also stated that when he tries to tell the teacher that
    someone did something, she tells him she doesn't want to hear it
    and he has to handle it himself!  This feels like a double-standard.
    
    I'm not mad that my son got suspension.  I AM mad that they didn't
    call me first!  I did speak to the principal on the phone briefly
    and she stated "they" tried to call me 3 times...  I pointed out
    to her that my son tried to call me.  She can't expect a 10 year
    old to leave a proper message for someone.
    
    And I AM mad that she threatened to throw him out of school!  She
    should NOT be saying things like that!
    
    Thanks again
    
    Peggy
    

    Another note...
    
    This IS a case of the parents not caring.  We know this family.
    All 3 boys have bad reputations as do the parents.
    
    My son has been taught to try to walk away, tell a teacher or
    do whatever he can NOT to fight first.  If all else fails, then
    he has the right to depend himself.  
    
    Thanks
    

    FWIW:  I have told my kids (girl 9, boy almost 6) NEVER EVER throw the
    first punch, but you may throw the LAST!  I agree fighting is NOT an
    acceptable way to behave, but sometimes a kid has to do what a kid has
    to do.  Unfortunately, this usually warns the others to back off.
    
    This is obviously in a public school.  Why do I say this?  Because when
    my daughter was in 2nd grade, last year, the school officials
    (principal, GC, Nurse, teachers) had absolutely no control over ANY
    situation...PERIOD!  My husband and I took time out of work DAILY to go
    into the school for unannounced spot checks and let me tell you what we
    found.  Firstly, a 2nd grade boy (who, already, was labeled a problem)
    brought in a butter knife to quell a certain child from tormenting
    another.  This 'problem' boy was taking the initiative to gain some
    control over a nasty situation, albeit an unaccceptable resolution. 
    The GC was napping in her office during outside recesses and the
    outside monitors were all huddled in a corner away from the kids
    chatting.  The playground was completely and totally out of control!  
    
    After I b*tched, which I am more than proficient, the GC started
    mingling with the kids during recess and the monitors were actually
    playing with the kids!!!  A report was done by the outside crew which
    indicated that *groups* of kids were forming and harrassing other
    *groups* of kids.  Also, they found that the language and information
    passed was appalling (no kidding!).  Other incidents were cited.
    
    I had a long 'chat' with the principal and told him I would be pulling
    my daughter out and no allowing my son to attend Kindergarten there and
    he begged me to give him a chance...just one week.  OK, I did.  After
    the one week, we revisited the issues.  Concrete solutions had not been
    even put on the table let alone implemented.  This school is reputed to
    be one of the best elementary schools in the city of Nashua.  NOT!  My
    kids go to a private school (nope, can't afford it, but can't NOT
    afford it).  In 3rd grade my daughter has 17 kids in her class and my
    Kindergartener has 16.  This is a far cry from 30/classroom.  My kids
    have learned to actually read and learning French.  Gee, we are PAYING
    so that our kids get and education (which we all pay taxes for) and I
    am also paying for a good learning environment.  
    
    Please don't misunderstand, just because kids go to a private school
    does not mean they are not exposed to similar incidents.  These
    incidents, though, are addressed immediately, nipped in the bud, so to
    speak, and rarely occur again.
    
    My daughter's experience in the public school environment would have
    been beyond detrimental, whereas my son could have handled it because
    he is aggressive and would stand his ground and I would be right there
    to support him in that situation.
    
    Shame on your son's principal for not getting all the facts and
    mishandling the situation.  Shame on the GC for not doing his/her job. 
    Shame on the school board for their existance!  Can you tell I'm a bit
    bitter?  You bet!  When it comes to kids SOMEONE has to teach them how
    to defend themselves and WHEN.  SOMETIMES words just don't do it,
    although in MOST instances is the only appropriate method and works
    well.  The school system just can't take the time or energy to do their
    jobs anymore and unfortunately, it is because some of these kids come
    from homes that don't take the parenting route seriously and the kids
    suffer.  ALL the kids suffer because of that situation.  The schools
    have too much to handle as it is, but it just seems that although this
    is a fact, they have all but thrown up their respective hands in
    defeat.
    
    Shame on them and good for you for being PARENTS!
    
    I'm off my soapbox now!  :D
    
    Sandra

>    My son has been taught to try to walk away, tell a teacher or
>    do whatever he can NOT to fight first.  If all else fails, then
>    he has the right to depend himself.  

Not easy stuff.  But generally, I agree with the above!  Growing up as a 
young boy with a last name of "Flowers" and moving and changing schools, I 
learned quickly that you can't allow yourself to be pushed around.  This 
didn't mean being a bully.  But when you start defending yourself, the 
abusers take notice - and soon you won't have to defend yourself anymore 
('til you move again...)

(Actually, the abusers only take notice if you're good at defending yourself.
There was one kid that was much larger and I would always lose the
fights.  For this kid I resorted to words - making the kid look and sound
stupid for picking on me...  but that didn't always work.  As for telling
teachers and adults - sorry, but that doesn't always save you...)

Unfortunately, as .-1 points out, in today's schools, pushing/shoving/fists 
are being replaced with more dangerous weapons.  

I do not know what we'll be teaching our son...(only 1 year old right now).

Dan

    
    I'm having a tough time commenting on the whole thing, as we've been at
    both ends of this, and are in the midst of it, and still haven't found
    anything that works.  If they fight back, they get in trouble.  If they
    START it, they get in the same amount of trouble (gee, that makes
    sense!), if they try to find an adult, they get TONS of shit from the
    other kids about being a tattle-tale or a baby or whatever other
    taunting the kids feel like dishing out.  And I haven't found the
    school to be particularly concerned.  So, now, we emphasize that they
    better not get CAUGHT!!  No, not a great answer, but as I said, I
    haven't found one yet that does work.
    
    If the phone calls continue, you have a few options .... Nynex just
    sent out some stuff in last month's phone bill about options that are
    ON your phone.  One of them is a "call-back" feature.  Whether or not
    you answer the phone, after someone calls you, you dial *69, and that
    dials them back.  At least you can confirm the household.  Ask for the
    kid's parents, and then explain the situation.  Or there's also
    call-trace ... I THINK that that's *89, but I'm not sure.  Then they
    actually TRACE the call, and record it as a "harassing" phone call. 
    You can call the phone company and have a trace put on your phone, BUT
    you have to agree to press charges, if they do this.  They'll ask you
    if you know who it is that's calling, also. (maybe it helps them make
    the trace faster?).
    
    And .... I BET that the principal used the "You're going to get tossed
    out of school" more as a threat to try to make the kids knock it off. 
    It's getting near the end of the year.  I'd probably have said a
    similar thing to them if I felt that it would straighten them out (AND
    I was pretty sure I wouldn't have to act on it).  Talk to the principal
    and find out what she meant.
    
    .... and, what's worked for Chris (who seems to encounter the world's
    future axe-murderers on a regular basis), that he thought of himself
    ... is if someone gets physical with them, he gets right back in their
    face, not-very-nicely explains that he's working on his brown belt in
    karate, and to leave him ALONE!  It's worked the best, so far.  Gee,
    such wonderful solutions for our little children... )-:
    
    

    
    As parents, we have choices, but none of the choices are cheap or free.
    We can either pay high taxes or high rent to live in a town with a good
    public school system and a decent neighborhood  or pay for a private school. 
    Schools are there to educate kids, not to bring them up. Teachers are educators, 
    not social workers. I have no problem with public schools expelling kids who 
    cause  trouble as long as they are consistent with their rules. It is not fair 
    for other tax payers to be footing the bills for some kids' psychological 
    counseling. It is not fair for other children to be disrupted by a few
    troublemakers. Maybe by expelling troublemakers more often, parents who
    are not currently doing their job will be more concerned by their kids,
    because then, they can't just stick their kids on the bus and forget
    about them.
    
    
    Eva

    Sorry, can't let this one go...
    
    I AM NOT sticking my kids on the bus and forgetting about them.  I am a
    concerned parent, that's why I'm asking these questions.
    
    Who said MY son "caused" the trouble?  I stated that he was defending
    himself!  And I truly believe he has every right to do that, in this
    case!  
    
    I don't tell my son to go around punching the first kid that says
    something to him that he doesn't like...  
    
    As for Public schools, if they did their jobs and kept things under
    control and didn't play favorites, this kind of thing wouldn't 
    happen to begin with!
    
    

    RE: .17
    
    HEAR!  HEAR!!!!  All I can say is you're damn right!
    
    Your son has enough social issues to handle at school, let alone having
    to deal with abuse and the nonchalance (sp) of the administrators!
    
    /sr

>                     <<< Note 937.17 by TNPUBS::POMEROY >>>

    Not sure who you think said your kid caused the trouble.  I just
    think you are giving him the wrong remedy.  I would not support
    my kids punching anyone under any circumstance.  That's me, and
    we're different.  Lots of different people in this world.

    You sound like you have some real problems with your public schools.
    Not sure how involved you are.  Perhaps you should run for
    School Committee or join the School Council (here in Mass anyway).
    Perhaps this is a good issue for your PTO.

    When I hear 'if only those public schools did their jobs', its usually
    someone who has no idea what the schools are like these days.
    bob

    
    re. 17
    
    I did not direct .16 at you, if I did, I would have stated 
    that in my reply, like this one.
    
    I was just stating my view on the responsiblity of the public school
    system, as a taxpayer, as a parent of a 4th grader and as a volunteer 
    in the school system. You have the right to disagree, of course.
                      
    
    
    Eva

    I have had the mis-fortune to go through a very similiar situation with
    my 13 year old son.  He has had an on-going issue with one student.  It
    came to a head just after the holidays.  The other student was name
    calling in an art class with the teacher present in the room.  When my
    son wouldn't respond, with the rest of the class egging the bully on, he
    began slapping Matt in the back of the head.  Still with the teacher
    present in the room.  Matt stood up, turned around and punched the kid.
    
    Matt received in house detention along with the "aggressor".  The
    principal explained that Matt should have showed more control in the
    situation.  Both boy's were banned from a dance that night and the
    other child received an extra day of detention.  I let the princiapl
    know that I did not feel that this was going to be the end of this
    child being aggressive to Matt.  This happens to be the third time this
    kid has been physically aggressive to Matt. 
    
    The principal offerred no reasonable explanation for the art teacher 
    allowing the aggressive behaviour of the other student to go on.  He 
    felt that it could be the nature of the room set-up as art is less
    structured.  Hmmmm there must be riots in gym!  
    
    Within 4 weeks we were receiving obscene phone calls from this kid and
    a buddy of his.  I called the police, and put a trace on the phone. 
    These kids are known to the police, so I'm not sure if that kids were
    spoken to or not, but there have been no more calls since the call to
    the local police.  I also let the principal know what was going on.
    
    Since then Matt has had personal property stolen by this student.  I
    finally called the superintendent of the school system.  The property
    has since been returned and I have made it clear that Matt and this
    student will not be in any classes together.
    
    At this point we are considering private school.  The parents of this
    kid obviously don't care.  When the kids were in the "fight" I was
    called and went directly to the school.  The other student's parents
    could not be found.  The school buses had already left and the
    principal could not drive the other child home without parents
    permission.  
    
    I would have preferred that Matt walked out of the room rather than hit
    the other kid.  I have taught him not to throw the first punch, but he
    has the right to defend himself.  At this point he has been instructed 
    by myself and the principal that he can walk out of any threatening
    circumstance and go to the principals office. 
    
    Unfortunately behaviour like this is going unchecked in schools, I'm not
    sure what can be done.  I keep holding the school accountable, but I
    have serious doubts regarding their ability to provide a safe
    educational environment.
    
    Tracy  
    
    
          

    We've had some minor problems with David (first grade), and I've been
    very pleased with how they've been handled by the school.  (But I'm going
    to insist that my kids skip adolescence, to avoid the bigger problems
    that occur then!)

    David's problems are related to trying to help his on-and-off best
    friend when the friend gets into fights.  I don't know how much the
    fights are his friend's fault - he seems to be basically a good kid, but
    he does play a bit rough.  There was an incident in December that started
    out with two or three kids (including the friend), then David and a few
    others joined in to help their friends, and there were a couple of
    minor injuries.  This was all in the morning (between bus dropoff and
    going into the school).  I got a call at home from the assistant principal
    about 9:30.  He told me what had happened, and said that he had already
    talked to the primary participants (4 kids), had told them what the
    consequences were, and would be talking to each of them individually later
    during the day.  I was at the school later that morning (for an unrelated
    reason), and I stopped in to talk to him briefly then.  When David got
    home in the afternoon, I discussed it with him, and he told me that he had
    talked to the assistant principal, and also his classroom teacher.  "So can
    we stop talking about it now, Mom?  I'm tired of talking about it!".  I
    told him he had to finish the discussion with me, and if he was involved
    in another fight, he would have to discuss it with everybody all over
    again (that seemed to worry him :).

    Everything was handled at the school exactly acording to the school
    policy handbook (about 25 pages total, of which maybe 5 or 6 pages are
    on disciplinary actions), which we got at the beginning of the year.
    There was *immediate* followup, the consequences were appropriate for
    the "crime", and part of the discussion the kids were all subjected to
    was how to avoid recurrences.

    One of the things that David was told several times was to not try to
    rescue his friend or stop the fight himself, but to ask an adult for
    help.  He's very reluctant to do that, though - I'm not sure exactly
    why.  I'm also not sure how effective that approach is - there are only
    4 adults on the playground at recess time, with 200 first graders, in a
    play area that can't all be seen from one spot.  So there may not be a
    convenient adult to ask for help, even if he was willing to do that.
    I also can't really fault him for trying to help his friend (who is a
    bit smaller, and of course is yelling "David!  They're getting me!  Help
    me!").

    So this afternoon, David told me that there was another minor incident on
    the playground that he was involved in (similar scenario - fight started
    between his friend and another kid, friend called for help, David rushed to
    try to break up the fight, and was part of the group who got a warning
    and a talk with their teacher).  Nobody got hurt this time, mainly because
    some other kids got an adult to break it up fairly quickly, I think.
    Another round of discussions with David ("That's enough talking!").
    I hope we can make it through the remaining couple of months of school
    without another call from the assistant principal...

						cheryl

    Well, we made out pretty well with the Principal.  We didn't
    get to meet the teacher.  I'm tempted to have a meeting with her too.
    
    We told the Principal how we felt about him defending himself and
    she agreed that he has that right!  
    
    I explained to her how I felt about her contacting the parents first
    vs. having the kids call their parents.  She apoligized and said from
    now on she will call me first and then have him explain.  I also told
    her that's why I carry a beeper, so I can be reached!  
    
    Apparently there was another incident the next day (the day we met with
    her) and the principal told us that my son and 2 other boys went to
    see her.  They all wanted to get there first to tattle on the other.
    
    This is kind of bugging me..  my son said he asked if he could go see
    the principal and was told no, but the other 2 were allowed to.  I knew
    my son DID see the principal because she told us that.  When I asked
    him when he did see her, he said he was called down after the other 2
    went.  This seems unfair to me.  I think the teacher is playing
    favorites.  
    
    I don't think I'll do anything about it at this point...  I'll wait!
    
    Thanks again for all your responses.

    And we, as parents, wonder where kids get inappropriate ideas in
    behavior.  Here are a few prime examples of what is taught in public
    schools!  The first one to tattle or suck up to the teachers gets away
    with bad behavior.  
    
    FLAME ON>>
    These people are as spineless as eels!  Heave forbid you make a
    decision based on facts, circumstance, and fairness.  Oh no!!!!  They
    can't do that, it's not in their contract!!!!!  Or they actually have
    to take their job seriously and stay a little late a couple of days a
    week!  Concerned parents and their kids are penalized and the
    'unconcerned' parents and children are coddled...give me a #@*$%#^)*$@
    break!
    
    These kids are OUR future...HOW THE HELL CAN THEY BE?  They aren't
    given a fair shot in education!  They are learning the lessons of
    beaurocracy, bribery, and political nonsense.  What happened to
    Reading, 'Riting and 'Rithmatic?????  Our 2nd graders can't even READ! 
    Then we wonder why Americans (I don't care about origin/race/etc) or I
    should word it as people EDUCATED in America can't get a decent job. 
    Well, to start with, our educational system doesn't teach the basics
    and our kids can barely read let alone comprehend.  But they are sure
    taught all the work arounds...THAT is scary!  
    FLAME OFF>>
    
    Sorry...I know I'm off base a bit, but just flaming...:D
    
    Thanks,
    Sandra