Conference moira::parenting

    Kate,
    
    I can sympothize.  My son just turned 8.  He learned to tie
    his shoes last year but still will not do it.
    
    I taught him by tracing a shoe on cardboard and cutting out
    holes for the laces.  This way he could learn on something
    he could carry around and it did not have the stigma of an
    actual shoe.  He did fine on this but not 'perfect'.  He
    will not even try to tie his shoes in front of anyone because
    he is a perfectionist.  So, he leaves them tied and just slips
    his shoes on.
    
    I have pretty much left it up to him.  This year he has to
    learn several knots in Cub Scouts and I figure once he gets
    the finger coordination to do some of the easier ones, he will
    get the shoes figured out.
    
    My son is great a large motor skills but when it comes to 
    finger skills he has some problems.   He is a sloppy writer
    too.  We are working on it still.
    
    Good luck, you are not alone,
    Pam

    Our kids learned the easiest with the '2 loops' method...
    for a while, we had them just do the 'first half' of the tie,
    and we would do the second half.  When they got that down,
    then they would form '2 loops' and tie them the same way as
    the first half....it takes a little longer to do it this way,
    but the kids seem to 'get it' easier.

    EVentually you can teach them the 'adult' method of forming
    only one loop and then looping the other string around it.

    Actually, the '2 loops' method produces a better knot (usually)...
    if you look at how you tie your shoe, the 'proper' knot is basically
    a 'scout' square knot, but the usual adult method most often produces
    a 'granny'.
    bob

    
    We also used the 2 loops method at the beginning because it
    requires the same finger motion. The only drawback was the
    knot is not as tight as the one loop method. But, one can
    always make a double knot which uses the same finger skill.
    It helps to get behind the child, wrap your arms around the
    child and show him how to do it from his perspective, as
    opposed to facing him and have him flip every motion around.
    Try to watch him do it and figure out what part he is confused
    about and work on that part. Give him a piece of string or shoe
    lace or yarn to practice on. This is really not a very important
    thing in the long run, so try not to get upset, he'll figure it
    out someday. Worst off, tie the sneakers slightly loose permanently 
    and let him slip his feet in. I do that with my shoes all the time!
    
    
    
    Eva

I agree that the "2 loops" method is usually easier to learn; my daughter
picked up the other method more easily, though, so try both.  (Of course my
daughter and her friends leave their shoes tied and shove their feet into
them, making the "tying" question moot except once or twice a week.)

I disagree about which method produces a square knot; I've usually found the
"two loops" method produces a granny (I just tried both methods to confirm). 
(If you cross left-over-right for the first part and left-over-right again with
the loops, that's a granny pretty much by definition.)  I guess with either
method it depends on which way you do it.

						Brian

    Well, now I can't tie my sneakers!  You all got me wondering,
    well how DO I tie them?  I suspect I use the two loop method.
    I guess I'm not too adult :-).   Now there's three of us in
    here tying and untying our shoes :-)
    
    					cj *->

>I disagree about which method produces a square knot; I've usually found the
>"two loops" method produces a granny (I just tried both methods to confirm). 

    you are right that both methods can produce a square knot or granny.
    It just seems that almost everyone ends up with a granny using
    the 'adult' one loop and around method...with the other, its more
    obvious that you are trying to tie a square knot and you can get one.
    bob

    I like the "twin method".
    Have a twin that knows how to tie a knot, and skip 
    the learning process altogether.
    
    Gets ackward when you go to different colleges, tho'.

    What is the "two loops" method?  I never heard of it.

    You make a half knot (as in, right-over-left).
    
    Take one tail and double it back on itself so it's a loop.  Do
    the same with the other one.  Now with these two loops, do
    left-over-right.  (That makes it a square knot; if you did right-over-
    left with it, you'd end up with a granny knot, which doesn't hold.)
    
    Leslie

    
    For most adults, after we make the initial cross with the 2 strings,
    we take one string and make it into a loop, we take the other string
    and wrap it around the loop and pull it through to form the other
    half of the bow - this is the one loop method. The two loop method
    works like - after the initial cross with the 2 strings, you make
    a loop with each of the strings and you wrap one loop around the
    other, pull it thru and make a bow. It is easier to learn for a
    child since they can visualize the step better when they start
    with 2 loops.
    
    
    
    Eva 

    
    Come to think of it, a 2 loop method is the same as tying
    a double knot, you already have 2 loops, you just kind of
    tuck one loop over and under the other loop!
    
    
    
    Eva

What's that rhyme that goes with one of the methods?  It talks about
a bunny in a hole, or something like that.

    Carol

>   <<< Note 936.12 by SAPPHO::DUBOIS "Bear takes over WDW in Pooh D'Etat!" >>>
>
>What's that rhyme that goes with one of the methods?  It talks about
>a bunny in a hole, or something like that.

    You are thinking of tying a Bowline....

    you form a loop...and then
    The Rabbit comes up the hole, around the tree, and back down
    the hole...

    At least that's what I think you mean.
    bob

    
    RE: basenoter
    
    Perhaps your son is something like mine....he is a "teenager-at-5"
    in that he thinks that Mom and Dad don't have a clue 8^).   He
    learns more difficult skills, like shoe-tying, under the direction
    of someone else (in this case, his babysitter).   Maybe enlist the
    help of someone else?
    
    Other than that, the only thing that I can offer is that he learned
    to tie his shoe while it was sitting on the table (I know...gross).
    Once he had that down, he was able to do it in the less comfortable
    position of when the shoe is on the foot.   He also uses the two
    loop method.
    
    Carol
    
    

    Captain kangaroo used the "bunny" method on tying shoes.  
    
    guess I am dating myself
    
    meg

    When you are showing your child how to tie, go BEHIND him/her and
    demonstrate.  This way, they see how it's done exactly rather than
    showing the child by facing him.  
    
    A good practice method is to take a shoe box, puch holes in the top and
    put in a lace.  This way, they have a little cubby to put their
    treasures in and practice tying.  Kinda makes it their very own.
    
    This method worked for my daughter at age 4.  My son learned how to tie
    via the *bunny ears* method (aka 2 loops), he's 5.
    
    They will learn in time.  And once they do learn, it won't be long
    after where the choose NOT to have their shoes tied at all!!!!  Go
    figure... :)
    
    Sandra

    
    
    Buy Velcro ..
    
    Jason ties his shoes at least 50 times/day .... though I didn't realize
    the difference between the "square knot" and "granny knot".  Chris ties
    his about once a month.
    
    They'd both MUCH rather have velcro, except they can't get them tight
    enough to be comfortable for baseball and "Running FAST!" (critical ya
    know!).
    
    They both tie with two loops.  I can't do it!!  When they want them
    REALLY tight, they'll have me tie them .... must be I'm doing a square
    and they're doing a granny, eh?
    

    Right over left 
    and left over right
    makes a knot
    that's square and tight.
    
    meg

    My son is left handed and I am right handed. I HAD to sit him 
    in front of me so that he would learn "backwards".  Right to him,
    backwards to me......
    
    Thanks,

    
    Because of this topic, I tried tieing my shoes the "bunny ear" method
    as someone put it.  I do it the other way -- make the first loop then
    wrap the other lace around and pull it through.
    
    I could do the two loops, but it took much longer for me.  I had
    trouble making the second loop with only one hand seeing that the other
    hand was holding the first loop.
    
    I'm left handed -- so I wonder how its going to work if my daughter
    turns out to be right handed which at 17 months seems to be.
    
    

    If you're still looking for a video, one of the PRESCHOOL POWER tapes
    has a section on tying shoes...I believe your child is older that the
    kids in the video, but that might be incentive? (not sure... MY kids
    ignore the 'peer pressure' tactic, often to my pleasure, but it would
    be nice to count on it occasionally to teach them something!). Anyway,
    the video does show a small frame w/ 2 separate pieces of cloth attached 
    and red shoelaces on one side w/ white shoelaces on the other....helps 
    to visually see where the laces are going/have gone)...I've been thinking 
    of adapting this at home to start teaching my 4 yr old. Velcro's great 
    but I'd like to see her have this tying skill too. 

    Some friends of ours had the same problem with their 5 year old tying
    his laces. I sat down on the kitchen floor with Kevin and told him that
    EVERYONE can tie laces, and spent about half an hour slowly helping him
    through the process. We used the 'standard', not 'two loops' method. 
    When Kevin's father came to see what we were doing, I undid the laces
    on HIS trainers and asked Kevin to tie them up again. It worked!
    
    Kevin spent the next week going around school telling all his friends
    that they couldn't tie THEIR laces because this is a skill which can
    only be taught by an English girl (we live in France) ;-)
    
    Jacquie