Conference moira::parenting

    cj,
    
    go with your feelings here.  I would continue to have him involved in a
    visit that lasts up to a couple of hours, but not overnight.  She is at
    the age where kids need to be in one stable place if possible because
    of "stranger awareness."   Explain to her father that at this point she
    needs this, and that there will be time to work beyond this as she gets
    older.  
    
    if you need grab a book on the birth through two years development
    stages for backup.  
    
    meg

    
    re .0
    
    I think doing overnight in a unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar
    people is very stressful for a 6 month old, it is tough even for a 3 
    year old! It is scary for them to wake up and not see a familiar 
    face.
    
    I recently made a boo-boo. I was staying at girlfriend's house while
    on vacation. Her 1 year old son got used to me after a couple of days.
    The fourth morning I was up early and heard the little guy cry. My 
    girlfriend was still sound asleep. So, I tried to find out if he needed
    changing or what not. Well, he was so upset seeing me instead of his mom
    that he got hysterical. Boy, did I feel bad about it. I'm glad I've
    known my girlfriend since 4th grade ;-(;-(.
    
    Trust your own instincts. You know your kid better than anybody else.
    
    
    Eva
    

    My blood boiled when I read this!!  My daughter is now 12 but her
    father and I divorced when she was 4 months old.  My scenario was the
    same as yours!!  How dare he think just because he cannot sit in "her"
    comfort zone and hold and play with her for an hour or so, he feels he
    should uproot her and take her where HE'S comfortable.  PUT YOUR FOOT
    DOWN and demand that he relax and enjoy her where SHE's comfortable
    while she's this little!!  He has the years ahead to take her,
    meanwhile tell him to quit stressing the little gal just to suit his
    needs!!  Your concerns are natural and any good mom would feel the same
    way you feel!  Don't let him make you feel guilty.... even when the
    weather is nice. FOLLOW YOUR GUT INSTINCT..
    
    Best of Luck
    
    Terri

    Whoa Terri! Reel it in there woman!  :-) (just teasing)  
    
    I got a couple more replies off line to this and it seems perhaps
    my feelings are founded.  
    
    You know, he really does love his daughter.  I don't want to make
    him sound like he's coming up to fulfill an obligation, because he
    does love her.  They just are not finding a common ground.  I truly
    feel that even when they have good nights, it's due to Angeline's 
    incredibly good nature.  She's really something, but even she has
    her moments, and he seems to be the recipient of most of them.
    
    There is another wrench in the works.  David's going to be starting
    a new job in New Jersey.  He'll work a four day work week, Tuesday
    to Friday, and come home on Friday nights (which will turn into
    Saturday mornings real quick).  It seems he is figuring on coming
    to my house sometime on Sunday to take Angeline so he can have her
    on Mondays.  Now I expect he's thinking "hey, that will save us one
    day of daycare $$$".  I think that is where this sleep over idea is
    getting worked in.  But he cannot be relied upon to do this every
    week.  I KNOW him.  When I was pregnant, and we were still together,
    he used to take off as soon as he could every Sunday because he likes
    to go out on Sunday nights.  Where, I have no clue, but it didn't 
    even matter that he worked on  Monday.  He will not give that up
    for Angeline.  
    
    Who knows, maybe I'm way off the mark here, but I just don't think
    so.  He'll want to leave her with his mother, who is one unstable
    nutcase, I gotta tell you.  I have no intention of letting her have
    unsupervised visits with Angeline for a very long time, if at all.
    
    I don't know, there's so much at play here.... sometimes it's a 
    bit overwhelming.
    
    Well, thanks for your comments.  If there's any single fathers out
    there, or any male opinions right now, I'd like to hear that side
    of the coin too.  
    
    					Thanks to you all, again
    							cj *->

cj,
   I think Angeline is very lucky to have two people who love her so much.

   When my daughter was living with her mother and coming to visit with me 
she was much older. That time was very important to me.

   You have some very strong feelings over this. That is approproriate you 
are her Mother. You mentioned that Angeline really can't distinguish her father 
from your friends because he's an occasional visitor. I'm not sure how he could 
become any more without having Angeline for longer periods.

   I understand your concerns about Angeline's fathers dependability too. When
I was first married to Rowena's (my daughter's) mother (Barbara) there were some 
legal battle's over visitation between Barbara and her former husband. The court 
didn't agree with us. They forced Alex who was then six (or sevenish) to take
ten hour plane rides as an unaccompanied minor to visit his Dad. As it worked
out his Dad usually arranged for another relative to be on the plane with him.
Anyway, my point here is that it is often another perspective to a situation.
The lack of dependability was there too. Alex was meant to get regularly 
scheduled calls from his Dad which his father frequently missed. Alex returned
from one visit early - this was a local visit. Alex was devistated.

   Anyway. Maybe you could talk to Angeline's Dad about this. Tell him how you 
feel. I guess that this won't be easy. Maybe he can see your perspective and he
can begin to see yours and you can come to some common understanding.

   Like the other noters said too, your instincts are important. However, if you
just follow them without talking to Angeline's father he'll just feel shut out.
I think by telling him he'll understand that you have Angeline's best interests 
at heart.

   I hope it all works out for Angeline.

Peter.

    Peter,
    
    You know, I have friends with older kids that I've seen the heartache
    that a father (yes, and a mother) sometimes cause.  I can remember
    in particular a little boy sitting at the end of his driveway on
    his sleeping bag crying his eyes out because Daddy no-showed for a
    camping weekend.  I do believe enough in David that he won't cause
    immediate pain like that to Angeline later on.  He is not a jerk,
    I may get mad at him, but he really is not a bad man.  Just perhaps
    a little too young, and totally inexperienced with infants/children
    for such a responsibility. 
    
    I'd like to try the approach with him that "I'm just not ready", or
    "I don't have good enough feelings about this".  I'd like to try not
    to make it a "well, you did this" and "you did that" type of conver-
    sation.   The problem is, when it comes to compassion for my feelings
    David falls very short of the mark.  Besides, I expect the typical
    answer will be "but you'll never be ready".  Which is true :-), but
    at a later age I think I could deal with it more.   At least when
    she can talk and recognize Daddy.
    
    Well, I'll keep you all posted if you'd like.  And keep those
    cards and letters coming folks!  :-)  This is giving a bit more
    confidence in that I don't feel I'm being overly protective or
    smothering, but hey - if someone feels that way, please tell me.
    People say things, you look at something differently, and little
    lights go on... that's what a discussion is about.
    
    						cj *->

    re.6
    
    I think "I'm not ready" is likely a tactical error.
    
    Keep focused upon your daughter and her needs. Not yours.
    
    Tell him about the baby sitting/pacifier incident as an illustration of
    why you feel that _she_ isn't ready to wake up in a strange place.
    
    Encourage him to become better acquainted. And if his idea of quality
    time is watching TV together, I don't know if that's such a bad thing.
    I don't believe that it's ideal, but the way you describe it sounds
    like the contact is there. So long as he's a loving and careful [this
    needs work from reading .0] father, I really think that he, rather than
    you, should determine how they spend their time together.
    
      Annie

    I was thinking about your note on the way home last night.  Other people
    have already mentioned some of the things I thought of, but here are
    a few more:

	1. Dealing with a baby overnight without nearby backup sounds like
	   it's beyond his "skill level" right now.  What I would worry
	   about would be whether the adults in the household might get
	   frustrated at an inconsolably crying baby and do something abusive
	   (maybe not realizing it could harm the baby, such as shaking).
	   I think this is a difficult situation for many adults to deal
	   with even if they have experience with babies (e.g., parents of
	   colicky babies).

	2. Is there a way to work up to it more gradually?  Can he perhaps
	   be responsible for her for an afternoon, including when she
	   wakes up from her nap, without you present, but available if he
	   needs help?  If that doesn't go smoothly, he might see for himself
	   that the overnight stay wouldn't work.  And if *does* work fine,
	   that would reassure you that the overnight could work out.

	3. Does he expect to be 100% resposible for her during the time he
	   has her, or is he expecting someone else (girlfriend, his mother)
	   to be doing a lot of the care?  It seems like if someone else is
	   taking care of her, he's not getting the "time with daughter" that
	   would be the point of this.  (Of course, at night while everyone
	   is sleeping is not exactly quality time together, either!)

	4. On the other hand, if he can convince you that he will be
	   providing a safe situation for her, I wonder whether there would
	   be any real damage to her even if she did wake up and get very
	   upset.  I think the person that would be most hurt by this would
	   be you, separated from her and wondering what was going on,
	   worrying...

    Good luck!  It's difficult to make good decisions in a situation that,
    as you say, has so many (emotional) factors involved.

						cheryl

    Hi cj!
    
    I struggle with the same thing myself, though Jonathan is a bit older.
    My sanity is reached because I TRY to base my decisions on "what's best
    for Jonathan".  If Al were to take Jonathan w/ him for a w/end, then
    Jonathan would be 'sent downstairs' and watch tv all day, while his
    half-sister (8 yrs old) watched him, or his grandmother looked in on
    him.  His dad would find so many other things too much more attractive
    to do, and it would be too difficult for him to focus his time and
    attention on Jonathan.  At 18 mos old, at least Jonathan is a little
    more independent, and can, in a way "speak up for himself" if he were
    too neglected.  But anyway, I have to ask myself (over and over and
    over again), "What's best for Jonathan".  And at this point in his
    life, it would NOT be best for him to be left alone with his father,
    where his father is currently living (at his parents').
    
    I have a few more things to use as 'yardsticks', but basically I judge
    it on several things;
    
    o How capable is Jonathan of making his wants/needs, known?
    o How likely is Jonathan to get hurt, if he's not watched, or only
      watched by another kid?
    o What type of time/activities does 'dad' currently spend with his
      other 2 kids (they watch tv, he does what he wants, usually off in
      another part of the house, or outside.)
    o How will Jonathan potentially benefit from this? 
    o In what ways can this hurt him? (make him think that this is 'normal'
      for mom/dad to just ignore a child)
    o What is the long-term affect if he goes?  If he doesn't go?  And is
      there any compromising?
    o What type of time/activities does 'dad' currently do with just
      Jonathan? (not much - sometimes plays ball if I tell him to,
      otherwise Dad watches TV, Jonathan plays by himself until he cries)
    
    So, for us, it's a little more 'supervised' if you will.  But that's
    for now, and as Jonathan gets older, and can talk more, and IF his
    father shows some interest (and gets his own place), then he'll
    probably end up spending more time, including overnights, with him.
    For now, I'm usually there when Dad's around, and he sure doesn't seem
    to mind.  And I bring Jonathan to visit his
    grandparents/half-brother/sister on the w/ends that Dad has the other 2
    kids, so that MAYBE they can all get to know each other a bit.  
    
    Yes, Dad LOVES Jonathan .... to pieces!!  But he really doesn't know
    how to care for him at this age, and he doesn't seem too concerned
    about learning those 40 bazillion 'little things' that Jonathan tries
    to communicate.
    
    You have a good sense of how 'attached' they are, and I think unless
    you're secure that ANY 'other person' is intuned to your child, you'll
    never feel comfortable.  For the last 6 mos, every day we come home
    from daycare, Jonathan's **ALWAYS** starving and thirsty, and he'll
    whine/cry when he gets home till he gets a drink and a cracker or
    something.  And every time that Dad picks him up and brings him home,
    he can NEVER figure out why he's whining/crying.  Let's see .... for 6
    mos, and he usually picks him up twice/week, and he still doesn't get
    it, ... that's not someone particularly intuitive, or even tuned in to
    their kids' needs.  When Jonathan can ASK for what he needs, then I'll
    feel better about it.  (-:
    
    Maybe you could try an approach where, if you really feel you/she is
    ready for Dad's place, that you take a few 'supervised' visits to his
    place, to see how she does, and see that it's safe and all that.  And
    if his girlfriend doesn't like it, too bad!  You have a child between
    the two of you, and she needs to accept that, and accept that you and
    David are always (ALWAYS!) going to be involved in each other's lives,
    because of Angeline.
    
    I don't think you're wrong - but it may be hard to get him to agree to
    your reasoning.  Of course, if he's such a 'free person', as you
    describe, then he may very well find out that he doesn't want to be
    "strapped with this screaming kid!" for more than an hour or two at a
    time anyway!  Would it be possible to let him sleep on the couch one
    night or something, and have HIM take care of her the whole time, but
    you're just there "as backup"?  Or you sleep on the couch at his place
    (sure, that wouldn't be awkward!)??  Maybe he just needs to SEE that
    it's not all simple .... ??
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

There's a lot of things here I agree with.  Mostly, you need to focus on
your daughter's needs, not your own.  It's never going to be easy having her 
go to her father's for the first time overnight.  Not for many, many years 
anyway.  Therefore, there are three things I would suggest:

     1) Find a time which would minimize the problems.
        If she is going through "stranger anxiety" at this age (the really
        horrible stage, not just the kind that is always there) then wait
        until she is over it.  If she is not going through "stranger 
        anxiety" now, try to get her to her father's before she starts it.  
        It often starts later than 6 months (8 months or so, for ours, as I 
        recall).
     2) Reduce the problems that you see, as best as you can.
        Lend him a baby monitor so that her crying will sound like it's in
        the same room.  Make sure he knows simple safety rules, like keeping
        up the sides of the crib.  Teach him distraction tricks to do with her
        when she is crying, so that she stops crying while still feeling loved.
        Do whatever else you can to help with the other problems which you see,
        especially those related to safety.  It is in your daughter's best
        interests that you help her father learn to take care of her better.

Lastly:
     3) If he is disinclined to learn how to keep her safe, then document all 
        concerns you have, and how you have tried to help, and what he has 
        done or not done.
        Sooner or later, as her father, he can get support from a judge to 
        have her over at his house.  If you still think that it is a safety 
        risk to have him keep her overnight, it will help your cause if you 
        have kept a log a) of the problems you have seen, b) your attempts to 
        teach him proper safety rules, c) his lack of keeping these rules 
        even after being taught).  Be nice when you teach him, by the way.
        Let him know you are on *his* side, or rather, that you are both on
        your daughter's side.  The two of you can work together for her
        happiness.

Good luck.  I hope that he learns better care of her.  I am happy for her, 
though, that 1) he cares about her enough to want to spend more time with her,
and 2) that he cares enough about her to visit her every week (he's not the
only one who finds babies boring a lot of time), and 3) that he has control of
his temper enough to put her in the crib when he is angry.  Though it would
break my heart, too, to know my baby was left to cry, it is still a wise thing
for him to do if he is very angry, and far better than hitting her, which some
parents would do.  His is a good coping mechanism for now, and as I mentioned,
he just may not know some of the tricks of parenting that you have learned
and can share with him.  

      Carol

    Patty,
    
    You had some valid points.  One thing in his favor, Angeline is
    really not a screaming kid.  She very rarely cries, just gets
    up a little cranky sometimes.   Oh yeah, I'm forgetting my own
    concerns....the most crying she does is when he's over and I go
    out.  Yup, hence a crying child...
    
    I think what I would like to do is ask he come stay over a couple
    (few?) times and spend an evening/morning/whole day caring for her.
    When I he broke up with me we made an agreement that he would come
    stay with me on weekends until I delivered.  My mom was around on
    week days, but weekends I was alone.  I didn't feel in my last 
    few weeks I should be alone like that, with him an hour away. I
    also requested he stay with me the first two weeks after Angeline
    was born to help me out (not even knowing at the time that I'd
    wind up with a Cesarean).   He wound up pretty much agreeing to
    my terms.  There was a couple weekends he wanted to go home, and
    I was flexible on that.   So, to give a very long answer to your
    question, I believe it possible he can come stay.  He was going
    with this girl since before he broke up with me, so she's already
    gone through his staying over my place.   Besides, she is not a
    factor in this at all as far as I'm concerned.
    
    I will have to sit him down and bring up all the concerns I've
    mentioned here.  That's come through clear to me from everyone's
    input.  It just gets hard, because he gets so defensive and we
    wind up fighting and not listening.  He takes things as an accusation,
    and I'm struggling over words to "soften the blows" and trying not
    to sound accusatory.  Hmmm....I wonder if I could ever get him to
    a mediator?   With him moving to New Jersey, scheduling that would
    be next to impossible.  But I just may consider it if we can't work
    through this amicably.  With such a long, hard, hurtful, road we've
    come down, I bet some counseling would be beneficial.  
    
    							cj *->
    
    I think when the time comes, this will be my suggestion.  I don't
    feel it will sway him, ie: seeing how tough it is and not taking
    her overnight, but may help me to build a little more confidence
    in him.  

    .11> It just gets hard, because he gets so defensive and we wind up 
       > fighting and not listening.  He takes things as an accusation,
       > and I'm struggling over words to "soften the blows" and trying not
       > to sound accusatory.
    
    Deborah Tannen's books (_You_Just_Don't_Understand_ and [I think]
    _That's_Not_What_I_Meant_) can probably help you with phrasing things
    so that he really hears what you're saying without feeling it as a
    personal attack.
    
    Leslie

    re. 10
    
    Carol,
    
    Ah the monitor!  This brings back my feeling of how deeply he
    sleeps.  When he's over, and I'm out, and he puts her to bed,
    he has the monitor there beside him.   He is sleeping through
    "things".  He's certainly sleeping through my coming in the
    house and going in her room.
    
    Now, she's getting bigger, even I am getting less anxiety ridden
    when she's in bed.  That is, I probably don't check to see if
    she's breathing every ten minutes (seconds, nanoseconds... :-) ).
    I do wake up at her every noise, but will generally lay there waiting
    to see if she finds her pacifier by herself, or waiting to see if she
    goes back to sleep.  With all this aside, I am up tending to her 
    probably two or three times a night.  Is it the end of her world if
    she winds up crying back to sleep because she can't find the pacifier
    herself, and he doesn't awaken?  No it isn't.  But I have awoken to
    her making a weird coughing noice and found, and pulled out, a corner
    of her receving blanket she has swallowed so deep she was choking.
    
    Yes, it's incidents like that that run through my head when I 
    envision her sleeping over.  Yes, it could happen at any time to
    anyone, but less safe when you can sleep through a world war.  
    
    I don't help myself much with those thoughts, do I?  Well having
    him stay over and seeing if he does awake when needed, will do a
    lot for me.   
    
    Also, some of you have brought out the suggestions of trying to
    teach him the little tricks to his daughter.  I tried that so much
    when she was first born, ie: she really like to be rocked, she gets
    kind of upset when you cradle her, she likes to be up on your shoulder,
    etc....  Anything I suggested he would ignore and most determindly do
    what he wanted.  I felt like he wanted to establish things "he" did 
    with her.  Maybe so she'd associate these things with Daddy and these
    things with Mommy.  Life was hell, I'll tell you!  She was miserable.
    But then I found him slowly doing the things she liked, mostly when
    I wasn't around.  But I come home and find them in the rocker (which
    he never liked before because he can't lay down while watching t.v.
    and holding her).  He started putting her up on his shoulder to quiet
    her.  Little things started evolving.
    
    Now he's gotten a little more receptive to my suggestions.   I think
    because a) I just stopped making them after a while, and b) he saw
    she didn't like him much.   There are times when I see a stone wall
    go up when I try to start telling him something new she likes, but
    he comes around.  I expect even some if the most happiest, married 
    couples/parents go through the same things.  
    
    "Focusing" on my daughter's needs rather than my own is what caused
    me to start this whole discussion.  I have been unsure if my point
    of view was being clouded by my emotions.   I see now I do have some
    valid points, but should work WITH them rather than use them as a
    weapon to try stopping the inevitable.  
    
    One other thing I'd like a little feedback on.  The girlfriend (boo!).
    I hate the thought, but I feel I should meet her before Angeline spends
    much time up there.   She's already gone and spent one afternoon at
    Daddy's, but it was only for two or three hours.  I think if this
    starts getting regular, it would be irresponsible for me not to have
    met this girl.  No, I am not trusting in David's judgement of her
    because of a lot of the specifics of this whole mess.   And me spending
    an hour around her is not going to tell me if she's going to suffocate 
    my kid the first chance she gets.  But do you think I should bite the
    bullet and meet this girl?   Isn't it a "must" at this point?  
    
    You know, I have to laugh at myself here.  All this agonizing!  Well
    actually, I'm not "agonizing", I'm just trying to be sure whatever I
    do is fair and not attempts at being a b*tch.  I don't want to make
    mistakes and destroy what is already a very fragile relationship 
    between her father and I.
    
    So what do you think?  Meet the girl?  (sometimes I think I must
    be sounding like a total woosh to you folks, but this is really
    helping me).
                                               cj *->

	Just a comment on "teaching" Dad.

	While I wholeheartedly agree that safety specifics need to
	be a taught, I have found through experience that we Mom's
	don't always know the best way or the only way to comfort 
	or care for a baby.
	
	I used to harp on my husband to do things my way.  Somewhere
	early in the process I realized that he was capable of figuring
	things out on his own (and less fed up with my harping ;-)).
        On matters of safety, I did persist,
	and usually would back up my requests with statistics ("Did you
	know umpteen kids die per year from XYZ and it's a risk I'd
	rather not take with our child" for example).

	Karen

    re. 13
    
    If this the woman friend has been around since before Angeline was
    born, I think meeting her might be in order. I can certainly see where
    that would feel pretty "ick," but, if it were me, I'd want to meet
    someone who would likely be spending some time around my child.
    
       Annie

    cj,
    
    I think you should meet her .... even if it's only to decide she's
    capable and you hate her anyway.  (that'd probably be the worst)  You
    may find out you like her, and MAY even find an ally in her, and in
    raising your daughter.  If David's that "numb", it may make you feel
    better to know that there's someone 'in the house' who WOULD wake up if
    Angeline started crying .... even if it isn't the person who's supposed
    to be taking care of her.
    
    THIS would be one of my biggest struggles -- letting the "other woman"
    care for your child.  I think that's a lot harder to separate emotion
    from fact, but again, try to ask yourself the same questions.  If David
    decided that this woman will be part of his life, then she's part of
    Angeline's life too, and you all need to get along - no matter how
    awful it can be.
    
    I would love for Jonathan to be able to spend more time w/ his 1/2
    brother and sister (from his father's side), but 'the ex' and I have
    never gotten along, and SHE certainly would never want a child of MINE
    at her house, so it's not much of an issue ... but if it were
    different, I'm not sure that I'd feel great to allow him to go off
    'with her' (we'll ignore the fact that she's a psycho-path and came at
    me w/ a knife...).  I think it's probably one of the hardest things
    about 'split' families - is later on being able to include all of the
    'extended' family, for the benefit of the child.
    
    The girlfriend will NEVER replace you, but she may be able to give your
    daughter some attention while she's "with her dad".  
    
    Good luck!  I don't envy your position!!
    
    

    re .14
    
    Karen,
    
    In my own defense, I have taken special pains not to "harp"
    on David.  At best, my suggestions have been made while he's
    holding her, she's screaming, and I've said, in a kind of
    "sharing" tone, "I've found she likes being up on your shoulder
    more than being held down (cradle)".  Mind you, this is in 
    response to "why is she crying???".  And I got ignored.  That
    is why I said I just stopped suggestions.  When asked "why is
    she crying" I'd wind up just shrugging my shoulders and saying
    "I don't know" and left it up to them to figure out how to get
    happier with each other.   That was tough too, because I knew
    how to make her stop.  
    
    As I said, now he's just a bit more open to suggestion.  If
    he asks, I answer and more now he follows my suggestion.  Most
    of the time they are not unsolicited suggestions.   In fact,
    most of the time I get the heck out of the house when he comes
    because I couldn't stand seeing my daughter so unhappy.  But
    hey, there's times when I get home at night and want to just
    stay there.  Sometimes those times fall on his night over.
    
    I usually spend them sitting in my room, or folding laundry
    in the bathroom because she behaves better for him if she
    doesn't see me.   I laugh saying this too, because last time
    he was down, I fell asleep on the bathroom floor on a pile
    of towels.  Don't ask me how, guess I just wanted to "rest my
    eyes" a bit :-).
                    				cj *->

    Re : meeting the girlfriend - I'll give another side to it - it would
    be a help to establish some sort of relationship with her now while
    Angeline is young, especially if the relationship is going to be
    longterm ('course, if it's not, you'll have to do this initial "meet
    the girlfriend" a few times !)  - over time, as A. gets older, you'll 
    have to deal with other issues and getting to know her before they arise 
    might make them easier to handle or you might even be able to address
    them *before* they become an issue.  An example from a friend of mine is 
    discipline - what's going to be your style, what's his, what's *her's*
    if she's alone with Angeline ?????  Ya, meeting her will probably be
    uncomfortable, but think of it this way - if you were hiring a sitter,
    would you just drop Angeline off and not meet/talk with her first ????

    just my $.02
    Debbi

    I guess I have to establish in my mind that she may be long term
    (the girlfriend).  It's just hard to.  I mean, I was supposed to
    be!  David and I were together just short of three years, we were
    having a baby and then he was gone.  And to move in with someone
    after only knowing her three months, doesn't consitute good judge-
    ment.  But who am I to say.   
    
    I find it easy to fall back on, "well he did it to me, he'll do
    it to her.".  But nice as it is to fall back on that, I know I 
    have to face it may not be true.  It's just hard to take seriously
    a girl who thinks it's ok to dump your pregnant girlfriend.
    
    Again, who am I to say?  I know I've got to try to open my mind
    a little more where she is concerned, but I've had to do so much
    emotional adjustment and readjustment this past year, it's tiring
    and I don't consider her worth it.  How would I feel in her shoes?
    I wouldn't be there!  And if I was stupid enough to give this guy
    a chance, I certainly wouldn't jump right into moving in with him
    after knowing him three months.  Ok, I gotta off this or I'll ruin
    my whole day :-).   
    
    I know I've got to meet the girl, and I guess I knew no one would
    come up and say "why, you don't have to meet her".   My daughter's
    welfare is the most important issue, and you're right - I wouldn't
    just leave her with a sitter I don't know.  
    
    I think I will suggest he brings her to my house to meet her though.
    Hell, I can be juvenile enough to want to meet her on my "turf" first.
    ;-> ;->					cj *->  

cj,
   You've gone through a lot of pain already. Judging him does not help you 
or Angeline. It is important to make decisions on his ability to care for 
Angeline. Your feelings are important too. It will be hard to meet "the other 
woman" but she might turn out to be good with Angeline and put your mind at 
rest about sleepovers.

   Getting back to Barbara and Alex. I was impressed by Barbara's ancouraging 
a relationship between Alex and his Dad and by her non judgemental attitude.
She never put Alex's father down in front of him even though he was a jerk. She
left Alex to find out for himself. Anyway Alex's Dad's girlfriend turned out to 
be a good contact. I remember her mailing Alex's winter coat when it was left 
behind - something his Dad would never get around to.

   I think all of this helped me when Barbara and I separated and I became the 
part time disney-world Dad.

   I guess I'm rambling. Anyway the point was it is important to do what is right 
for Angeline even if that is uncomfortable but it is also important to take 
care of yourself and your feelings too.

Take care,
Peter

    cj,
    
    This is from long experience with Lolita's father and live-in
    girlfriend.  Make the meeting on nuetral territory and a public place. 
    (I like coffee and tea shops YMMV)  Don't bring Angeline to the first
    meeting she will only distract all of you.  
    
    She isn't an ogre, most likely, and getting to know her on a personal
    basis will probably put your mind at ease.  
    
    meg

    
    re .20
    
    You may never know what the woman is like until you meet her. Maybe she 
    is a whole lot like you and you make instant friends. Maybe she is very 
    different and you two never click. In either case, the best way to
    treat her is like a sister-in-law, keep it cordial. The bottom line is
    you want your daughter to be liked and well cared of at her place!
    
    
    Good luck,
    
    Eva 

    Hi, just MHO:
    
    Now is not the time to allow overnights.  Your daughter cannot fend for
    herself, nor can she communicate other than by crying.  The father
    lives outside a safe 'emergency' commute and let's face it, kids never
    seem to get sick during normal waking hours; always after midnight and
    before dawn! :)  He has not completely developed a relationship/bond
    with his daughter yet.  You, on the other hand, are the Mom and know
    what sound/cry means what and know what to do immediately.  He, on the
    other hand, does not only because he has not been the primary care
    giver.
    
    I believe that allowing for a bonding/relationship for a few hours or
    even several hours is good because now the father is slowly accepting
    your suggestions and probably feeling more comfortable in handling his
    daughter and she more comfortable (in time) with him.  Once his
    confidence is up, so will hers and most importantly yours.
    
    The 'girlfriend' will be involved eventually and you *may* find her to
    be the only reason to allow for a sleepover.  Never mind YOUR personal
    feelings on an adult level.  IF you get good vibes regarding her
    interaction with your child and can realize that she has a good head
    AND heart for the care of your daughter, then that can only be good for
    everyone involved.  Personal Experience:  When my ex was seeing my
    daughter he was living with a woman and she truly was a Godsend because
    he was and is completely incapable of taking care of anyone and I more
    than depended on his girlfriend to take care of my daughter.  I always
    gave meds/direction/whatever to her, NOT my daughter's father.  That is
    a whole other story, but...
    
    Or you can take the easy way out and say, no overnights until our
    daughter can communicate relatively well (2-3 years).  Until such time,
    continue with the visits and you may want to include full days back to
    back (Sunday and Monday), but nighttime sleep is at HOME.
    
    Good luck, it's tought to let go of your little one...*they* say it
    gets easier, but I don't think so...I have 2 kids now 9 and 6, and I
    like having them with me, they NEVER see their father and call their
    stepfather "Daddy".
    
    Also, none of my business, but...you MUST allow your daughter to get
    with other people and family members...expose her to lots and lots of
    people...develops their social skills, they get lots of love and
    attention and you get 5 minutes of privacy, 5 minutes of doing what
    grown ups do, and UNINTERRUPTED sleep!  ;)
    
    Sandra

    Thanks for your input Sandra.
    
    If there's one thing Angeline is used to, it's other people.
    That kid has more miles on her than you can imagine.  I do
    have a hard time leaving her, but do do it.  It just gets
    so hard because wherever I leave her, I also have to take
    her home.  Now if that involves evenings, I hate having her
    fall asleep somewhere and then have to wake up to come home
    with me.  Same as when I have a sitter.  I hate to have to
    wake her to take the sitter home.  So, although I do get
    out once in a great while (four times in six months), it is
    not always easy to plan. 
    
    Hmm, I probably just gave an argument from her father's side
    of the fence, eh?  
    
    As it stands right now, I'm just waiting until it becomes a reality,
    then will address the issues then.  In the meanwhile, I'm enjoying
    quite a lull in the relationship with her father.  When he visits,
    we are getting along pretty well right now and that's a nice relief
    for both of us.   Of course, a lot of it has to do with me biting
    my tongue and trying not to let him upset me.  But Angeline is starting
    to spend more time with both of us together rather than he comes in
    the door, I go out it.  
 
    I expect to be back around this note later, I'll let you all know how
    it goes.
    
    					Thanks again
    						cj *->
    

    Oh believe me, I *know* the biting the tongue routine...really stinks
    tho!  ;)
    
    I more than agree about the waking the child up at night (or any time
    for that matter).  When I started going out with female friends and
    later started dating, I had my sitter sleep over..talk about easy!!! ;)
    Also, if your family lives close to you, you can try one overnight
    there.  Maybe the first time you might want to spend the night as well. 
    I am not saying to stay from the time you get there until morning, but
    more like 'I am going out tonight, but instead of going home, I'll stay
    here'.  That way, you can be available IF necessary.  Of course, when I
    did that, I wasn't at all concerned because I have no qualms with
    leaving my kids with my parents...I KNOW they will call me should
    something come up that they cannot handle.  
    
    All I can say is, YOU are the Mommy.  You know what is best for your
    little one at this time.  I would not let ANYone interfere with your
    gut instinct.  If you don't think it's time, then it's not.  Period. 
    Fini.
    
    You are lucky tho, although you and the father are no longer together,
    you seem to trust him with your daughter.  In a very short period of
    time, he will have the overnights he wants, or thinks he wants, and you
    will have the opportunity to have some alone time.  A word of caution
    tho, your first few *alone* times are gonna be more than tough, but
    after a bit, you will treasure that time and truly be beyond thrilled
    when your daughter arrives *home*.  Actually, that's the best part!
    
    	Child:  "Mommy, Mommy, I missed you sooooo much"
    	Mommy:  "Nowhere near as much as I missed YOU!"
        (Then the big hugs and kisses and that smile lights up the world!)
    
    Boy, does that bring back memories!  That's just going to my parents'
    for an overnight!
    
    Everything will work out, it always does.  You're the Mommy and will do
    what is right for your baby.  You already know what you're going to do,
    when and why.  You needed just a bit of moral support and that you
    received by all.
    
    Sandra

    -.1> I more than agree about the waking the child up at night 
       > (or any time for that matter).
    
    But then not all babies at all stages *wake up* when you transport
    them.
    
    And older kids can (be awakened from the couch and) walk, talk, change into 
    their PJs and get into bed--and never remember any of it in the morning.
    
    Leslie 

    Agreement on all points.  As a matter of fact, kids probably have no
    issue with it and most other things at all! :)  All of what I have 
    written is only MHO.  *I* choose for *my* kids UNinterrupted sleep.  
    Again, that is *my* preference.  I am certainly not saying that it
    shouldn't be done or whatever.  I, me, myself, id, etc. am fortunate in
    that I don't HAVE to wake my kids and I don't WANT to either.  
    
    If kids don't like something, they will let us know one way or the
    other, they always do!  :)
    
    Anyway, I'm sure that we can all agree that kids, for the most part,
    are very resiliant and can easily adapt.  Only as we grow older and
    more set in our ways does the resiliancy and adaptability wane.
    
    Sandra
          

    You know Sandra,  you brought up an interesting suggestion.  I
    could leave her at my sister's, go out, stay there, SLEEP IN!, in
    the morning and just see how Angeline takes to it all.  It would
    be good for me to see her get up and be fine.  
    
    Of course, there's also the fact my sister has three kids.  Angeline
    is really comfortable anywhere there are other kids around because
    there's SO MANY (another issue) of them at the house she goes to for
    daycare.  But it would get her used to waking up and seeing someone
    other than Mommy.   I'm still leaning more toward having her father
    stay over a few times first though and having HIM care for her in
    the morning.  He's the one I want her to get used to seeing.  I want
    him to be caring for her,  not his girlfriend.  
    
    I do like your suggestion though, and think I'll give it a try 
    sometime.
    
    					Thanks
    					cj *->  

    Yes, it is REAL nice to sleep in for a change!!!  Although my kids are
    older now, I still have my *Mommy's Ear* open.  When they are not home,
    a nulear war couldn't wake me up!
    
    As far as the father, you're right in that you would want him to learn
    to care for his child and not the 'girlfriend', but chances are she
    will be providing alot of the care and hopefully able to get thru to
    him what you can't.  Again, I know how hard it is and will be for you
    to cope with the girlfriend being in the picture.  Also, you are very
    fortunate in that your ex is taking an active and caring role in his
    daughter's life and seems to be trying to ensure that he be a part of
    her life.  If he is a good person, Angeline will bring out whatever
    goodness there is.  Wish I could say the same about my children's
    father! (hasn't seen the kids in over 2 years and owes BIG$$$$ as
    well).
    
    How's the girlfriend going to like the idea of the ex 'sleeping
    over'???  (this is meant to be a joke!)  :D

    This reminds me of the first time when, as a newly single mom, I went
    out alone for the first time and did not depend on my parents for
    babysitting.  Boy did I feel independent.  Until I got home, well after
    my daughters bedtime, and realized that I couldn't leave her in the
    apartment alone while I drove the sitter home.  Talk about a burst
    bubble!

    Since then I have come up with a few variations on how to handle this:
    	- hire a next door neighbor to sit.  Since we live in a quiet
    	  neighborhood she can walk home.  This is of course with her
    	  parents OK.  And if they want, she will call for them to look for 
    	  her before she leaves my house.
    	- Have someone from what ever function I've gone to come home with
    	  me and drive the sitter home for me.
    	- hire someone who has their own transportation.

    So far, these have proven viable enough that I have not had to back out
    of an evenings plans.

    Well, David brought up the overnights again last night.  This
    time we tried the quiter, calmer, discussion mode than we 
    usually use.   I guess we've been getting along so well we're
    both afraid to break the spell.
    
    Anyhow, I made it clear I wasn't going to buck him on it, or
    come up with insipid excuses to stall it.  I just want him to
    try to have a little patience and compassion toward what it
    is doing to me.
    
    He even mentioned it probably would have been alot easier if
    he wasn't living with someone else, and I managed not to talk
    about how much I question her judgement/decision making ability
    due to past performance.  So no major brouhaha insued.
    
    He accepted that I want to see his place first, and want to
    meet the girlfriend first.  I told him I also wanted him to talk
    to his landlady and find out if the apartment has lead paint.  I
    told him I suspected it might (judging by the outside age/appearance
    of the building).  I told him I wasn't bringing it up to use as a
    delay, just that I wanted him to find out before Angeline becomes
    mobile and can chew on window sills.
    
    He said if she stayed over (presumably starting in a month or two,
    when his drafty apartment is warmer at night) and had a really
    "freaked out" night, he would wait again until she could handle it.
    This was his own suggestion.  
    
    That was about it.  I tell you, though, the whole time I was 
    re-running and reprinting all the notes in here in my head, just
    to follow all the advice really helped a lot.  I kept my head and
    tongue and hopefully laid some solid groundwork to make this all
    go smoothly.
    
    				Thanks
    				  cj *->
    
    

    Good for you!!!!!!  And good for him!  You and he have set down the
    ground rules by discussing what is best for your daughter.  You were
    open and candid about your personal feelings regarding the situation
    and you were very up front regarding the welfare of Angeline while
    she's in her father's care.  He, we must give credit where credit is
    due, agreed with your parental concerns and showed compassion for your
    personal plight.  It *appears* that you and he will be able to work
    things out amicably and BOTH of you are most interested in the welfare
    of your daughter (emotional, physical).  That's what parents are
    SUPPOSED to do.
    
    You must feel somewhat relieved and Angeline will notice that you are
    less stressed.  You are a very lucky lady/Mom.  You're both absolutely 
    right in taking it slowly for the benefit of your child.  
    
    Good luck!
    
    Sandra

    Well Sandra,
    
    I'm a little relieved the first round went smoothly, but less
    stressed overall?  No.  I have all my same anxieties about her
    going there, I'm just not unloading *all* of them on him.  I'm trying
    to keep us on an even keel.
    
    I have dreams almost nightly of the whole thing, and some nightmares.
    I hate the fact that I have to meet this girl.  In fact, I hate the
    fact that one of the biggest heartaches in my life isn't just gone.
    I have to deal with him constantly.  There's just no time for the
    wounds to heal over a little.  
    
    But I am proud of the way I am handling it.  I amaze myself sometimes
    when I don't just fall back on the standard "seek and destroy tactics"
    that the "wronged party" generally falls back on.  If not for my
    daughter, I would never have to see this man I loved so much again.
    
    But I do have her, he is there, I have to push my strength and
    maturity to the max to maintain some sanity, when I really feel like
    sitting in a corner, have a pity party, and say "hey, you didn't want
    me - you don't get your baby either".  What would that get me?  A
    court date!  Oh yeah, like I want that!   
    
    "Talking" things out here has been the best medicine for me.  It's
    helped bolster when I think I'm right, but kept me from screaming
    out how right I am.  It's also shown me other sides and points of
    view.  
    
    My latest "inner" workings - I'm spending time reminding myself of
    just how much I love my father.  My Dad is the King of the World
    to me and always has been.  No, he's not perfect, but so what.  I
    don't know how my life could have been without him.  I've been 
    telling myself how good it would be for my daughter to have this
    love for her father.   I have to do whatever I can to "help" that
    to happen.  Whether she ever sees or knows his shortcomings, as
    I've come to learn my Dad's, it will be entirely up to her.  But
    I have to do what I can to encourage this wonderful thing to happen
    for her.   I'm trying to head down this path in my mind as much as
    possible to see if it'll help me through this.  Put things in a 
    different, more tolerant light.    
    
    						cj *->

cj,
    I fervently hope never to be in a situation like yours, but if it
    happens, you will be my role model!!

				ch

    Thanks Cheryl! 
    
    That was nice.
    
    					cj *->

    Good for you!!!!!  My situation is ENTIRELY different, although I KNOW
    how very difficult it is/can be/might be/will be...make sense?  ;)
    
    You are a mother now.  You are doing what YOU feel is best for your
    child.  You are absolutely right knowing that, in time, your daughter
    will "see" reality.  If you had chosen another path, she may have put
    her far reaching father on a pedestal and worshipped him from afar and
    ultimately blame you for whatever disaster may befall him.  This was
    you are allowing for a relationship which he may or may not continue. 
    Only time will tell (and I don't mean to sound negative, but it's hard
    to read any inflections!).
    
    Again CJ, GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!  You are setting a very good example for
    other Mom's in a similar situation.  From what I have read from your
    notes, IMHO, I feel you should, as quickly as possible, find a way to
    get over ALL personal feelings for this man and *allow* yourself to
    live a very happy life and allow good people in it.  You have learned
    alot and gone thru alot and it sure sounds to me that you have an awful
    lot to offer.  Yes CJ, there IS life after a bummer ride!  ;)
    
    Sandra_VERY_happily_married
    (but it took a very bad 1st marriage to help me appreciate what is
    REALLY important)  :)
    
    P.S.  Good luck, but I don't think you'll need it

    Well folks, I have an update and it's not good and I need a little
    re-inforcement or re-alignment once again.  Quick update.  Angeline's
    father, David, started his new job last week.  He started a job in
    New Jersey, four days a week - Tues to Fri.  When he talked to me 
    about it we agreed he would see Angeline on Monday's now that he
    could no longer keep the original schedule planned.  All well and
    good.  This past week was his first week down there and he came up
    Monday as planned.  He came up telling me he wants to take her for
    the day this coming Sunday.  I say, "but why not Monday?".  He wants
    to take her Sunday for the following reasons and then things got messy
    and I'll try to spell it out as unbiased as I can.
    
    . I get two free days a week with Angeline.  He agreed to Mondays 
    because it was convenient and didn't interfere with my weekend with
    her.
    
    . Him: so, now I only get one day a week?
    
    . Me: for seven months you have made no efforts to ever see her more 
    than once a week, in spite of the many times I have tried to encourage
    you to come see her on weekends.  He has never bothered.
    
    . Him: he lives an hour a way and can't afford the gas to come more
    than once a week.
    
    . Me: when he moved out of him Mom's last November, he moved to an
    apartment still in the same town.  He made no effort to move closer
    to his daughter when there were locations that would put him closer
    to his daughter AND his work, he chose not to.  I don't except this
    constant whining, "I live an hour away, I can't afford the gas". He
    made this choice.  I think the $8.00 (his estimate) it takes for a
    round trip to see her could come from somewhere to see her even a
    second time once in a while.
    
    . Him: so I only get one day a week that's it.
    
    . Me: no, we had said you were going to be taking her overnight
    sometimes, on those times he is going to have to pick her up on
    Sunday anyways.  Why not just wait till then.  Why start this
    up now.
    
    . Him: shouldn't she at least be used to going to his place a bit
    before BANG she's staying overnight?   
    
    . me: Yes! Good point, and that's what Monday's are for!  Why does
    it have to be on Sunday when I am not working?
    
    . Him: so his family and friend's can see her.
    
    . Me: his family has made little to no effort to see her in spite
    of my constant invites and my taking the hour's drive to see
    them pretty frequently with her.   His friend's a) have showed no
    interest in ever seeing her when she was born or any other time,
    b) his friend's are not a consideration when we are discussing the
    issue of (and I hate using this wording but...) his time as opposed
    to mine.  I don't feel I should have to have her away from me just
    for his friends.  This of course would all be a different situation
    if he worked a Mon. to Fri. like everyone else.  Yes, then I would
    have to give up a weekend day, but that is not the case here and not
    what he agreed to.
    
    . Him:  I'm (meaning me) just doing this because I have so many bad 
    feelings over the past year.  I don't want her to go because he's living 
    with someone else.
    
    . Me: quite right, I don't, but have to accept it.  And BTW, I still
    haven't seen the apartment or met the live-in girl that is going to
    be around Angeline so much.
    
    . Him: (in spite of previously agreeing to both those things) has
    decided I should have faith in his judgement and now does not want
    me to see the place or meet the girl.  I should know he would do
    nothing to hurt Angeline and be satisfied with that.
    
    . Me:  I feel it would be irresponsible for me to just allow her
    to go stay somewhere and with someone that I haven't first seen
    and met, and besides, I NEED to do this.  He had agreed to it and
    it would help me past this transition in the long run.
    
    . He: I'm being selfish and have ulterior motives.  He doesn't ask
    to meet whoever I have Angeline around.  How would I feel if he had
    to meet anyone that I had with her.
    
    . Me:  If I started seeing someone and they were going to be around
    Angeline a lot, I think he SHOULD expect to meet them.  In fact, judging
    by my past record and judgement in men I think he should insist on it.
    And now it gets ugly because I pointed out a person in my past that
    I (stupidly) allowed to mentally and abused me for two years before
    getting out of it.  Another who decided to "brick" the side of my 
    face when I broke up with him, and more recently someone I loved
    and they walked out on me in my ninth month of pregnancy!  Look at
    how good my judgement is!  Well....needless to say that brought
    the house down.
    
    So...he feels I don't need at all to see his place or meet the girl.
    I'm being unreasonable and trying to cause problems.  I'm insisting
    he can only see her once a week.  I try to deny that, I'm only saying
    "why are you starting this already?"  You agreed to Mondays, you've 
    been on this job ONE WEEK and already you're rocking the boat. Why
    couldn't you wait till you were taking her overnight when I would
    have to deal with this anyways.  Why are you pushing me?".  Then he
    goes back to "breaking" Angeline into his apartment, I go back to
    that's what "Monday's" are for, and we're back to nowhere again,
    and now our "getting along" is blown right out of the water again.
    
    So tell me, am I unreasonable.  I felt after all the notes and writing
    we had going in here that it was not unreasonable for me to want to
    see his place or meet this girl.  Why would I want to unless I
    absolutely felt I should????  This is not fun for me.  Why can't he
    just allow it and be done with it.   Because I am supposed to just
    blindly trust his judgement and that's that.  
    
    				HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
    						cj *->
    
     

   re: .37   cj

>    So tell me, am I unreasonable.  I felt after all the notes and writing
>    we had going in here that it was not unreasonable for me to want to
>    see his place or meet this girl.  Why would I want to unless I
>    absolutely felt I should????  This is not fun for me.  Why can't he
>    just allow it and be done with it.   Because I am supposed to just
>    blindly trust his judgement and that's that.  

   Since you asked... IMO, you are *not* being unreasonable.  We won't
   let our (6yr old) daughter visit her school friends unless we know
   something about the family (maybe even met the mother and/or father),
   and that's usually for only a couple of hours.  I wouldn't dream of
   letting her into a situation like this unless I was comfortable with
   it.  Good luck.

   - Tom

    Blindly trust his judgement?   Ha!   Why wouldn't he want you to meet
    the woman who is going to be looking after your daughter.  What besides
    his moving has changed?
       
    Why would he agree to a visitation days and then back down on it?   
    Did you have a written contract with him about what was agreed to and
    what wasn't? If not, I'd start re-negotiating and have one written up.  
    I don't know too much about the legal system, but I would think that
    what-ever you wrote up, even if it wasn't in legal terms, if you had it
    signed in the presence of a notary, he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
    Perhaps he's just trying to give himself a way out, by making you look
    like you aren't following through on your agreements.  Does he pay you
    child support at the moment?   If he does, maybe this is just a way for
    him to try and get out of it.   Maybe he thinks that if he pushes and
    pushes you, that perhaps you will sign a legal document saying that you
    expect no support from him, but he has to stay out of his daughters
    life.
    
    I don't know, but something tells me that you can't trust this one to
    follow through on his promises.  It makes no difference what "bad
    judgements" you might have made in the past.  The judgements that you
    make about your daughter now is what is important.  I can't blame you
    for having second thoughts about the care that he and his new "SO" will
    give your daughter.   
    
    Just My Opinion........ But,  I certainly wouldn't let my daughter go
    ANYWHERE unless I knew what, when, where, how and who......  EXTREMELY
    WELL.
    
    

    I wonder if this is a control thing (thinking of sort of parallel sorts
    of discussions I've had with my kids).  Maybe he just wants to be able
    to feel like he's making some of the decisions, and not just following
    your orders.  With my kids, I've found that I can be creative about
    giving them some decisions to make, so they don't feel like they're
    being completely dictated to, but the areas that I won't/can't
    negotiate go the way I decide.  Maybe a similar technique would help
    in your situation?  Sorry, I don't have a specific idea about what his
    part of the decision-making could be, offhand.

					ch

    To me this is pretty cut and dry...
        At this point, Angeline is probably pretty easy to manage because 
    she isn't mobile (maybe this isn't true anymore).  But very soon she
    will be.  You need to see his apartment to determine if there are
    safety issues.  Choking hazards, stairways, unsecure windows, lead
    paint.  David and his SO aren't used to having kids around.  Does he
    have a crib and a high chair?  Do either of them smoke and leave
    matches around?  electrical outlets?
    
        I also agree with you, his friends are not a consideration at the
    expense of your time with Angeline.
    
        I don't blindly trust anyone.  Especially with my kids.  You're in
    a tough spot.  What are David's legal rights at this point?  For
    Angeline's sake, you and David have to try very hard to keep it 
    amicable.
    
    				Good luck,
    				Mary

    Cheryl,
    
    I think you are on the right track.  He mentioned a couple of times
    he can only see her "on my terms".  But to me, if we were going on
    "my terms", he would have being seeing her a lot more than he has.
    
    I want to make it clear here.  He LOVES his daughter.  He would in
    no way want to be out of her life.  He would never look for a way 
    out of seeing her.  But he does come up with some pretty half-as**d
    excuses that I know he believes are valid.  I think it boils down
    to laziness myself.  I wish I could just place in your heads the
    knowledge I have of his mother and you could see how he was raised.
    I see a lot of her personality/influence in his decision making
    processes.  Basically, it's him first before anything else.  
    
    So the fact that these things, seeing his place, meeting the 
    #@&#@! girl, would help me is immaterial to him.  How I feel and
    what would help me does not matter.  
    
    He knows I have an attitude toward her (the SO), and I agree with him.  I
    have also assured him I would not mistreat her.  That perhaps seeing
    she is not some brainless twit would in fact help me.  If she is so
    great, I'll see it too.  I told him, "I'm not out to meet her and
    go...she's a bimbo - Angeline can't be around her".  I am only trying
    to find a peace of mind.  Unfortunately, tempers were hot by that 
    point and the wording above is exactly what I used.  I had hoped to
    never say it to him that way.  I told him it is the way I feel, but
    he should give me a chance and I will surprise him.  I am more than
    willing to have my attitude change...just give me the chance.
    
    I have never and will never deny him time with his daughter, but
    why can't some consideration be given to what it is doing to me to
    have her go there?  
    
    Oh, we have no binding legal agreements.  We have been trying, and
    I'm afraid it's about to fail, to keep this out of court.  He did
    mention that had this gone to court I would be giving her up now
    every other weekend like it or not.  That may or may not be the
    case, but the mention of it all sent shivers up my spine.  It's
    true, I don't want a structured set up like that.  Maybe I do want
    it all on my terms, but my terms have never been unfair.  
    
    He, on the other hand, does not want this to go to court either 
    because a court appointed support payment would be more than he
    can handle.  So basically we both have each other by the throat.
    I set his support payment at such a ridiculously low amount that
    no one knows what it is (not that it's anyone's business) out of
    embarrassment on my part.  I set it though so I'd have a margin
    for later when I need more.   I just don't need what I think the
    court would make him pay.  He makes his payments (now) without
    any problem.  Actually, he post dates four or five checks at a
    time and gives them to me because he can't be responsible enough
    (his words) to mail them to me each week.  If he has something
    come up and doesn't see Angeline that week, I kind of get shafted,
    so we went to the post-dated check and it's working so far.
    
    							cj *->
    
    						cj *->

    Off the top of my head:
    
    My first thought [and most random] is that Angeline's father's vehicle
    must be a real gas-guzzler because I drive a family car 1.25 hrs to and
    from work every single morning plus miscellaneaous trips and my
    gasoline costs for a week average $18-20, not $8/round-trip. [I'm only
    computing gasoline costs as $8 is way too low to account for wear and
    tear as well]
    
    But enough about the trivialities.
    
    You have every right to see where Angeline will be spending time. He
    has certainly seen where you live and been able to assure himself that
    his daughter is living in a comfortable, healthy place.
    
    If you were/are seeing someone on a regular, serious basis he
    would/does have every right to meet that individual. If you were living
    with someone, it would be even more important. You are not asking to
    check out his dates; you want to meet the woman he lives with, that
    your daughter will be "living" with on her overnights. Stick to your
    guns.
    
    As for him getting one versus two days. You are right that you have the
    week-ends for quality time and that he shouldn't take it as given that
    you give up one whenever it suits him. Still, if he really wants to see
    more of his daughter [and the environment is a good one] it might be a
    very good idea to schedule times when he gets two days. Maybe pick
    Angeline up early Sunday one week-end a month and bring her back
    Monday.
    
    Still, I don't think you are to that point yet.
    
    He throwing a lot of emotional argument at you where he knows you're
    vulnerable. Not fair, but very human.
    
    I think you can both agree that he left the two of you, and his timing
    was absolutely lousy [not that there's ever a good time, but late in a
    pregnancy is tacky to the max].
    
    I think the two of you can agree that you, yourself, have a few
    unresolved, very negative feelings from the situation.
    
    He should be able to realise that drawing a line and saying "the past
    is over, I'm here now" isn't some magic band-aid.
    
    A child needs order and sense of being able to depend. Even if the two
    of you were the very best of friends and agreed on everything, managing
    the changes that you need to make would require delicacy and patience.
    
    Seeing this man's home and meeting his SO should make it easier to let
    Angeline go with some level of comfort. Yes, it is about trust.
    
    But I don't think it's about _distrust_. I trust my parents, but I
    wouldn't let my infant/toddler visit them alone in a house or place I'd
    never seen. It's not that I distrust my parents; it's that I need the
    reassurance.
    
      Annie

cj,
   It's hard to have to go through all this.

   I don't think you can expect communication between the two of you to improve
just because you are apart. I think he's pressing every button he knows. Like
Cheryl said it's (at least partially) a control issue. HAve you thought of going 
to a mediator to help you talk things out. I was thinking that maybe EAP could
help.

   I guess from his perspective it is unfair. If you could explain to him 
something of your viewpoint maybe he would see things differently. Maybe if you 
could figure out why you want things a particular way you could explain it 
without him feeling controlled. If you tell him that you would be happier if you
could meet the other woman and see his place. Kinda turn it around from your 
approving his choices to settling your piece of mind. The same with the Monday vs 
Sunday. Maybe he could do Sunday once in a while to have Angeline visit her 
relatives and his friends.

   You both have needs. If you manage to find a solution together the control 
issue goes away.

   First I think you need to define what your needs are without demanding 
solutions.

   I'm happy for Angeline that you both want her. That you care so much and that 
he is prepared to contribute to her life too.

Take care,
Peter.

    Well, I called down to New Jersey last night to try to get the
    air a little clearer.  I hate when we leave things angry and
    unsettled, but there are times when it just has to be that way.
    You get saying your point of view over and over, the other gets
    saying their view over and over, neither's listening, tempers rise,
    a mess....  sometimes stepping back , give it a day. 
    
    So I called.  We talked on an even keel.  He still feels it is not
    necessary for me to see the place or meet the girl.  I told him I've
    had this issue out on an open forum.  I've asked and discussed to be
    sure it is not just me and my emotions governing that request.  I am
    convinced I'm correct on this, I'm only being responsible, I need this
    to make the transition somewhat better for me.   I told him I had never
    intended to use the wording and anger I used concerning the girlfriend,
    that I am trying to open my mind to this.  He has not even mentioned to
    her that I am asking this.  I asked him to ask her what she thinks of
    it.  Leave it up to her.  He is still not receptive to that, but
    we'll give him time to think about it.
    
    He still has in his head I'm "denying" him ever having a second day
    with her.  I'm trying to tell him I just feel he rushed and pushed too
    fast.  We both knew the overnights were coming and he could have just
    waited.  I think he may be seeing that a bit more, but I think he still
    thinks I'm just using delay tactics and will come up with more excuses
    later.
    
    Well, nothing really gained at all...but the communication lines are
    back open a bit.  Gotta say I lost another night's sleep though.
    Angeline may sleep like a log all night, but boy does her father keep
    me awake!  :-)
    							cj *->

    Oh!  I did want to mention.  I do try to involve him in different
    decisions, although at this time there really isn't that many to
    make.  But when I was going down to Conneticut over a weekend, I
    called and let him know we would be gone.  He never does try to
    see her on weekends, and doesn't even call, but I did call just
    to let him know she would be gone.
    
    And in the midst of all this mess, I did also have another reason
    to call him last night.  That being, I want to get her signed up
    for Aquatics at the "Y".  Of course, I called today and all the
    classes are full, so I have to wait for the next term.  But I did
    tell him about it and asked if he had any objections.  
    
    I do my best to make him feel like a Daddy.  There are two pictures
    up of him with his daughter in my house for her to see.  One is beside
    her bed, with all three of us in it together, from her Christening.
    I send him all the Daddy cards for b-day, and Christmas, and Easter,
    and Valentines day, and they all have new pictures enclosed.  He's
    gotten presents from her for most of those days.  Me, I get nothing.
    And you know, it kills me - but I can't stop doing what I feel is
    right.  I feel as a father/daddy he deserves to get "Daddy" things.
    And yes, I do get disappointed and hurt when I don't, even though I
    know it will always be that way.   But there are women in perfectly
    happy marriages that get the same treatment, so I guess that's just
    one of the crosses to bear :-).
    
    						cj *->

cj,
   I'm glad you are still talking.

Take care,
Peter.

    cj,
    
    I guess I'm in the minority here, but as a custodial mother and the
    live in girlfriend of a non-custodial father, I think that you should
    allow David to see his daughter.  Yeah, you might be missing a day with
    her, but, you have her all week long.  Yes, I know most of that time
    is spent at day care or sleeping,.. but you get to feed her on a daily
    basis, be the one she smiles at when she wakes up, and hug and kiss
    her any time you feel like it.  David is not able to do that.  Maybe he
    doesn't really want to take her and is just using the switch day thing
    to ease his conscious (I said I'd take her, but she won't give the day
    I want, so at least I tried.).  Give him every opportunity to spend as
    much time as he can with her.  She is not just yours and even though
    you'd like to make sure that her environment is safe, that's his
    responsiblity too and when you take away his responsibilities, that
    doesn't leave him with much.  I am living with a guy who was told when
    he decided to leave his wife that he would never get his son out of the
    house.  Well, so far she has done everything in her power to make sure
    that that doesn't happen.....the things that she has done I can not get
    into right now, but it has gone before the courts and family services
    is involved and now the recommendation is ready to go before the courts
    and regular (what most divorced men get, one day a week and every other
    weekend) visitations are about to begin.  So unless you have a valid
    reason (ie, drinking/drugs) for keeping your daughter from her father,
    I wouldn't do it.  As for wanting to see the apartment and meet the
    girlfriend, in a perfect world that would be great, in real life --
    dream on.  If I ever told my ex, I wanted to see where he lived and
    meet his girlfriend he'd tell me to fry ice and so would the courts
    (unless of course you had reasonalbe grounds again, drinking/drugs).
    
    
    I know you only want what's best for your daughter and maybe that is
    spending time with her dad on his "conditions".  Compromises can always
    be worked on later.
    
    Roberta

    I agree with the previous noter in terms of checking out the girlfriend.
    When your child is able to be with her father, he should be 
    responsible for her, not the girlfriend.  Checking out the girlfriend
    sounds odd to me.  You are divorced, who he spends time with is
    absolutely none of your concern UNLESS that person is capable of
    harming your child in any way, in which case, there should be
    restrictions.  
      
    You should encourage him to spend time with your (his and your) child,
    not throw obstacles in the way.
    You should discuss with him any concerns for her safety and agree how
    the matter of her safety should be handled.  And, you should realize
    that he has a life separate from yours and may have different values
    than you.  However, you need to agree that the childs welfare is of the
    utmost importance.
    My two cents.
    Nancy

    Sorry,
    
    If the girlfriend is living in his apartment, she will be involved,
    however minorly, in the care of the child.  I think wanting to meet
    someone who will be in the home with a child, particularly one who
    can't talk to defend herself, is very reasonable.  If this was an older
    child, I might concede the idea that meeting her isn't necessary, but
    we are talking about an infant/toddler here.  This year in  CO the
    partners of NCP's have been directly responsible for the deaths of
    young children in two cases that I know of.  (In one case the partner
    was female, in the other male, and in the most recent case the ncp's
    partner was left alone with the toddler for less than 30 minutes before
    he was shaken into brain death.  It was the first time he had met the
    baby.)
    
    Also, given the earlier information that the apartment doesn't have
    sufficient heat, I would insist on a home visit, before allowing my
    child to stay overnight, and really with a very yong child to make sure
    the house is reasonably child-proof.  (No peeling paint, exposed wires,
    roach or ant bait left out, household poisons kept locked up, etc.)
    
    meg

    
    re. .49
    
    >You are divorced, who he spends time with is
    
    	I don't think this is the case here. I believe the original
    noter never married the father and is assuming sole responsbility
    of the child. Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I think the
    original noter is setting up the visitations out of love, which
    is over and beyond her duty, IMO. The original noter cannot depend 
    on anybody else to look out or support for her child. So, why can't 
    her concerns be valid? Give her a break. ;-)
    
    
    
    Eva 

    RE: .49 She is assuming sole responsibility by choice.  This note is
    about the father wanting to participate in the child's upbringing.
    Ultimately the child's TWO parents are responsible for her. The
    basenoter is chosing to exclude the father.  (BTW - her reasons might
    or might not be valid but she is chosing to exclude the father)
    Whether or not they were married when the child was conceived - the TWO
    parents still have responsibility (financial and otherwise for the
    child)
    
    Am I in the minority thinking that both parents (should have) equal
    responsibility and accessability to the child (if it makes sense).
    
    Nancy  
     
    

    Whoa... I've been busy and not around here....  8-)
    
    As for not meeting the girlfriend, I'm convinced by too many parents
    here that it is something I should do.  It was mentioned that unless
    drugs/drinking are involved it's kind of (using my own terms - 
    interpreting what was said) none of my business???? You're joking
    right?  I AM getting real, I live in a very real situation.  This is
    now mine, his, and my daughter's lives.  I have never denied him
    any time with her, and am not using delay tactics.  I have simply
    said I need to meet the girl and see the place.   I questioned it
    being reasonable and now feel it is.  If I said "she cannot go until I
    meet the girl", or if I walked into his place and said, "no, no,
    no this is not good - nope she can't come here", now you're talking
    delay tactics.
    
    Back to .48 or whatever your number was, this girl should have no
    objections to meeting me either.  You think this is fun for me? 
    Like I'm looking forward to it???  You think I'm going to sit back
    and go, "oops, she's a bimbo - forget it"???  That is not what I'm
    out to do.  But I cannot trust blindly in a person who has blown
    my faith entirely out of the water...and not just in decisions he
    made concerning our relationship, but there's others that scare me
    too.  I find fault with you having someone else's kids with you 
    when their parent never met you. I wouldn't send my daughter off
    to daycare without interviewing the daycare woman/staff.  I wouldn't
    hire a babysitter off the street and leave my daughter with her -
    sight unseen.  That's irresponsible and, yes, the same thing.
    
    I asked, encouraged, her father to meet the woman I wanted to chose
    for daycare - he never did.  I feel he should in turn meet any man
    that may become an important part of my life also.  I do believe in
    it going both ways. 
    
    I feel it is very little off his back to let me walk in the place,
    and meet the girl.  If she's so special and so wonderful, Hey, I'll
    see it too, right?  But I have never given this as an ultimatum.  
    But he continues to refuse, it will be a problem soon, because I am
    not going to let her go off like this.  I need to settle my own peace
    of mind.
    
    Yes, there are too many people out there killing their girlfriend's
    or boyfriend's kids.  Will my meeting this girl prevent that??? 
    I'm sure not, but she and I have to deal with each other, supposedly
    anyways, for a "long time".   It's time we met.  To spend the time
    he is requesting, this should not be such an issue to him.  I was
    never suspicious and am trying not to be, but this continued refusal
    will make me suspicious and then I'll never sleep!  :-)   I feel this
    IS a compromise.  
    
    If you don't think I've had to compromise - GUESS AGAIN!  I've dealt
    with him in my home on a weekly basis.  He has access to get in there
    because he gets out of work earlier than I and picks her up at daycare
    and takes her home to spend time with her.  I have his picture up in
    my livingroom and in her bedroom so she can practice seeing who Daddy
    is.  I have to have his fruitcake mother over, when she bothers to
    show up.  My whole life has become a compromise.  I teach him
    everything I can so he can care for her when I'm not there.  He knows
    NOTHING about kids.  I teach him how to bath her, how to feed her,
    the tricks to being a parent, heck, I've had to teach him how to
    put her clothes on because he always gets them backwards!  (And she
    looks awful cute when he does it! :-) .   
    
    Am I a saint, should I be martyred???  Of course not!  No..I'm not 
    on a soapbox. I am a mother who loves her daughter and has to know 
    she is safe.  That's it, plain and simple.  
    
    					       		cj *->
    

    Oh, and Nancy...I don't know if you missed over it.  But her
    father is living with this girl.  I'm not asking to meet whomever
    he dates - but she lives with him.  As other noters have mentioned,
    I may find her to be level headed and be able to take better care
    than he.  He sleeps like a log, I'm worried sick about that.  Hey,
    she may wake up at the sound of a mouse fart!  Great!  I'll feel
    better!   
    						cj 

    I can't keep up here :-).  Again...I am not trying to keep her
    father from her life!  Just today I had scheduled two dr's appts.
    for her so he could attend both of them with me.  
    
    I have tried again and again to encourage he see her more.  I
    even leave my house all the time so they can be alone.  I am not
    denying her going to his house.  Don't make me out to be one of
    those witches fighting tooth and nail to keep him away.  Believe me
    it is not true!  
    
    						cj *->

    FWIW
    
    lolita was 7 when her father and I split up.  With the exception of
    "The purple haired horror freak" (lolita's name for this girlfriend) when
    she was 15, we both met each others steady friends who would be in the
    home when she was there overnight.  It gave us both some peace of mind (or
    maybe a model for a voodoo doll if anything had happened to her at the
    hands of a partner), to know who the other person in the house would
    be.  
    
    My Sister's husband's ex and my sister have met each other and get
    along SOMEWHAT as Bob and Sarah have a joint custodial arrangement, and
    Cecile often has Bren when Bob is out of town.  I imagine when Sarah
    has a steady partner in her life again that Cecile and Bob will meet
    him as well.  I believe it is common courtesy for starters, and if
    there are problems with custodial arrangements in the future, both
    sides know who the involved parties are.  
    
    I also agree that not meeting someone who will be in the house
    overnight with the child, is like not meeting your child's daycare
    staff, teachers in school, or Boy Scout or Girl Scout leaders, or other
    people who will be with your child a significant amount of time.  I
    would consider a "go blow" in response to a polite request to meet this
    person actionable.
    
    meg

    Meg -- I am just trying to throw in some reality here.  If David does
    not want her meeting the girlfriend, it's not something she can demand. 
    If this ever goes to court it would get laughed out.  Check out the non
    custodial parenting file for views on this.  I too, would love to
    personally meet everyone my daughters come in contact with, but that's
    impossible.  When my daughters are at their Dad's I HAVE to trust his
    judgement.  Whether I want to or not, it's for my own sanity, to put my
    faith in GOD.  When my daughter came home with a motorcycle burn on her
    leg, my boyfriend went ballistic and wanted me to call her father and
    ream him out and tell him what he can and can not do with her.  I did
    not, because he is her dad and he is going to make some mistakes just
    as I have.  My youngest right now is sporting a PURPLE chin because I
    took her roller skating in the tennis courts and she fell down hard.
    
    Eva -- I agree that cj is trying to set up the visits out of love and
    does want what's best for her child.  I am just looking at the out side
    of the coin and sharing what has been my reality.
    
    Nancy -- I think we are in agreement.  A parent is not the owner of a
    child.  A child is on loan to BOTH parents until she is of the age to
    venture out on her own.  But no one parent should control the access of
    the child, the one who is hurt the most in the end is the child.  What
    if David just says forget it, then Angeline is missing out a large part
    of her life.
    
    CJ -- I too, agree meeting the girlfriend would be nice.  I think I
    stated that in my original note.  But, when you send the child to her
    dad, he is then responsible for her and her environment.  If you
    honestly cannot trust him to act responsibly, then you NEED to protect
    your daughter legally. 
    
    You also wrote that you find fault with me for not knowing the parnet
    of the child who comes to my house...well, you should reread my note
    because I pretty sure that it stated that my boyfriend has not been
    able to take his child from his ex's house, but it has gone before
    court and family services and we are just waiting for a date for visits
    outside of her home to begin.  FWIW, I have met the child's mother and
    I would love to sit with her and talk about the upcoming visits and
    parenting styles so that the child has a sense of consistency.  But she
    is not willing to do that.  On the same hand, my ex has no desire to
    meet my boyfriend, he just wants my daughters to know that he is the
    daddy and that my boyfriend treats them well.  
    
    I also did not say that you have not compromised.  As the mothers we
    compromise all the time. I know all to well what it is like to
    sacrifice and deal with relatives who decided when I ended the marriage
    that I no longer exist (won't even look in my direction), who are
    alcoholic and wacked out alot of the time and one sister-in-law who is
    still my best friend.
    
    I think it's great that you let him attend dr visit's, even better if
    he actually goes, does he?  My boyfriend would kill for that opportunity.  
    I have invited my ex, but he would rather I just let him know if there
    are any problems he should be aware of.
    
    Good luck, my heart does go out to you.....
    
    Roberta

    Roberta,
    
    I probably was a little touchy too yesterday because I had just
    returned from a couple of tough dr's appointments, and yes, her
    father did go.  He generally doesn't but that is changing now that
    he has Mondays off.  I plan on scheduling most of her appt's for
    Monday now so I can get the help getting her back and forth.  Plus,
    we had to make a decision on having her get an MRI, so it was good
    he was there.  His was the deciding vote to get it done. 
    
    I'm not going to get into an argument over what the courts would
    and wouldn't allow.  The fact that he doesn't want to allow it is
    questionable enough to me.  But I have to argue this out with him,
    I'm not going to do it anymore here.
    
    I do appreciate getting other points of view, it was what I asked
    for in the first place.  I did get defensive though, and I'm sorry.
    I guess I just try so hard sometimes to keep this on an even keel
    that when we go off track, I take it personally.  I'm so afraid of
    becoming a wicked witch of all directions, that I have to come in
    here and get some re-inforcement.  I want more than anything to have
    this NOT become a relationship like you have described.  But sitting
    back and saying "well, I'm just going to have to never meet the girl
    or see his place" just to keep the peace is not good for me, and I
    firmly believe it is not right.  I didn't feel that way initially,
    but now I do.
    
    So, off go the boxing gloves :-) and thanks to all for your help and
    thoughts and the off-line responses have been really helpful and
    supportive.  Many times I have changed gears from somebody just saying,
    "Hey, I think you're out of line here".  I am open to that.
    
    						cj *->
    
    

cj,

It may help to recognize that you are under no obligation to justify
your decisions here.  (And you probably already know this)  
But I know that sometimes when I ask for advice, I feel like I have to 
explain why I didn't follow it.  I have to consciously remind myself
that I always have the option of simply saying "Thank you for the advice" and
then ignoring it completely :-)

- Deb B.

    <-- Ditto, what she said.....
    
    Roberta

    
    re. 52
    
    Nancy,
    
    	First off, I never got the impression that cj is excluding, or 
    choosing to exclude the father. She is just voicing her concern
    about the enivironment. Theoretically, you are right about the
    two parent ideal. But in actuality, people and life are not as 
    simple as black and white. If we put ourselves in cj's shoes, we
    would understanding that all she is trying to do is to provide the 
    best she could for her child. She is taking the sole responsiblity
    maybe by choice, maybe by circumstances. Sure, the father has rights,
    but the bottom line is that cj still has all the responsiblity. It is
    great if the father gets involved and helps out, but it would be imprudent
    to bank a child's well being on that expectation. Afterall, he didn't
    sign any paper saying he'd be responsible for anything, did he? Ideology 
    sounds great, but reality is what we have to live with. 
    
    
    
    Eva                               

    Just one thing concerning the apartment itself.  When David got
    it, his exact words were, "it's a dive, but at least I can afford
    the rent".  I have not brought those words back up to him at all.
    In fact, it is not up to me to say "hey, this place is a pit, she
    can't come here".  I'm the world's worse housekeeper and would not
    want anyone saying "this is a mess, your daughter can't be here".
    
    I may have suggestions - "gee, those window sills are low David,
    you may have to consider something to block her falling out them
    when she's walking".  Maybe, something like that. I do not
    want to go with the intention of critiqueing (sp?) his place.
    But I do need to see it.  I need to know I've seen it, I need to
    be able to visualize where she is and know it's fine.  
    
    I KNOW David wouldn't have her in a place with coackroaches.  Yes,
    I do trust him to that point.  He lived in a place in Fall River 
    for six months with roaches, and knows how easily they "spread".
    But he is totally inexperienced with kids and there just may be 
    things he misses.  Again, that is not my entire purpose in going 
    there, but a benefit we can both realize.
    
                                                  cj *->

And since his place is a dive, how can he possibly even WANT to expose his
daughter, who is becoming more and more mobile, to that environment???  His live
in, fine, but his own flesh and blood?  I understand he wants to spend time with
his child and be a part of her life, but come on now, does he REALLY want to
expose her to that?  Probably not, but he's trying to be in control_mode and
hasn't even thought about it and won't until he experiences it.  Unfortunately,
that's how many fathers learn, by experience and NOT by someone else's good
sense.  I know, I'll probably get flamed for that comment, but from what I have
experienced myself, this is what I have come to learn.

There is NO easy way to handle this.  You are behaving like a concerned mother
and he is behaving like an inexperienced, control needing father, albeit he
probably does want to have her, but is not thinking beyond his own need.  I am
not saying this in in a derrogatory manner, but as probable fact (based upon my
experience only).

I *think* what all the replies are saying, do what you think is best for you and
your daughter.  It was mentioned that YOU have ALL the responsibility and you
must do what is good for your child...PERIOD.  We parents make mistakes all the
time, we are not perfect, neither are our own parents or those before them, but
we try our very best to do what is right for our children.  Always with THEIR
best interests/welfare/safety/emotional stability in mind.  Whatever it takes to
ensure that, we try very hard to do.  And you, too, are doing that.  Good job,
CJ...

Take very good care...

Sandra

    Cj-- If you don't mind my asking....how are things going?
    
    Roberta

    Hi Roberta,
    
    I don't mind.   Things have gone up and down.  We finally came
    to an agreement on me seeing the apartment and meeting the girlfriend.
    This past Monday, in fact, it was supposed to happen.  We spoke on
    Friday evening and he asked to have her up this on Monday.  I said
    fine and agreed to bring her up.  I said I'd like her home by five
    Monday evening to give her supper and get her bath done and she's
    usually in bed by 7:00 or 7:30, although that has gotten a bit later
    lately.  He was fine with that.
    
    We spoke on Sunday, he wanted to know when we'd be at his house.  I
    told him I didn't know because she gets up anywheres between 7:30 and
    9:00.  Again, all was fine.  I was to call before I left Monday
    morning.
    
    On Monday morning I woke up 7:30, Angeline was sound asleep.  I got
    up at 8:00 and took my shower then ate breakfast.
    
    AT 8:43 David called from Danvers (a good 20 minutes from his house)
    to say he had partied too hardy the night before and hadn't driven
    home.  He would be heading home shortly.  I told him I was getting her
    stuff ready for the day and would get her up when I was done.  He was
    to call when he got home.  If I answered, I would tell him when I was
    leaving, if he got the machine - we'd be on our way.
    
    I woke Angeline up at nine.  I dressed her, fed her, she threw it all up,
    I cleaned her, dressed her again, and was walking out the door at 10:00
    when he called.   
    
    He wanted to keep her until 6:00 or 7:00 because he didn't feel the
    4 or 5 hours he would have her (he lives an hour away - so I had an
    hour's drive to bring her up, and he had an hour's drive to bring her
    back) was long enough.  I should have gotten her up earlier and gotten
    her up there.  I deliberately let her sleep because I was trying to
    keep her away from him.  I'm playing head games and trying to
    manipulate everything.  I think I was also a couple of names too.
    
    I tried to reason with him...pointed out he has never made any attempt
    to see her on a weekend, let alone gotten up early to do it.  The
    majority of his visits with her have not been even four hours long, by
    his choice.  This is the first time she's been up there, he should be
    patient and let the longer visits come.  She'd been a b*tch since I
    woke her up at 9:00, let alone if I woke her earlier.  I tried to talk
    him into still having her come up, but he would have nothing to do
    with it.
    
    I was determined to ruin his day with her and that's that.  He hung
    up on me and I haven't heard from him since.   
    
    Now I'm assuming he's coming home from New Jersey this weekend and 
    planning on seeing her on his assigned Monday.  This is a big assumption 
    because he has only done that twice since he started working down there 
    back at the end of April/beginning of May.  The Monday before Memorial 
    day, he was home but didn't have time to see her.  I suggested as he was 
    driving down 495 on Monday evening, I'd drive down from Nashua to Chelmsford
    and meet him at a restaurant so he could at least have an hour or so
    with her on his way down.   He was most appreciative of that and we
    had a nice visit.
    
    But this week, I'm the bad guy trying to keep his daughter away from
    him.  I tell you, I just can't win.
    
    ARen't you glad you asked?
    							cj *-> 
                                                         

    Roberta,
    
    You know what hurts through all this?  Last week, the day I wound
    up driving Angeline to see him at the restaurant, I had mailed to
    him that morning a card from Angeline.  I mailed it to his New
    Jersey address because I knew he was in the middle of a two week
    span away from her at that time.  I put in some new pictures of her
    and traced her hand print in it.  It was a card saying "Even though
    we're far apart, we're still together in our hearts".  Signed it
    Angeline and the old xoxoxo thing.
    
    Of course, we didn't know we were seeing him that night, but I just
    wanted to cushion the span for him, because he does miss her when
    he doesn't come see her.  He had already received that long before
    this crap this past Monday.   
    
    This is the manipulative b*tch trying to keep him away from his
    daughter.  I should be run out of town I'm so evil.
    
    							cj *->
    						

    Hi CJ
    
    I can feel your pain.....I know alot of what you have written first
    hand :*(  I have two little girls whose Dad is good about keeping his
    scheduled visitation days, but when the girls ask to spend more time
    with him, he assumes it would be to help me out and God forbid he
    should do that.  So he constantly makes up excuses as to why he cannot
    take them.  I say the Serenity Prayer alot and just tell him and myself,
    that it's up to him to secure his palce in their hearts and lives.  I
    do my part by making them available and being as flexible as possible
    and NEVER saying a negative word about him in their presence.
    
    My divorce was two years ago and my girls are now six and eight.  My
    relationship with my ex is still strained, but seems to improve slowly. 
    Last week out of the blue he called and wanted to take the girls for
    ice cream and hang out with him for a couple of hours.  It meant alot
    to the girls and I was happy for the three of them.  I just hope he
    continues to surprise them.
    
    My thoughts are with you....this too shall pass....
    
    Roberta

    Well, we've had a real brouhaha this week, and I'll admit...I got
    down and scrapped like some silly alley cat myself this time.  It
    was all very stupid and non-productive.  I've always felt that at
    some time in every relationship you "scrap" a bit, but it shouldn't
    be done destructively.  Like, name calling, and saying things just
    to hurt or deliberately make someone mad.  But this has even gone
    beyond me and I sunk to his level.
    
    Now since Tuesday night (the absolutely stupid phone argument night)
    I've been trying to figure out how the hell to get this all on an
    even keel.   Tell me how this sounds:
    
    a.  I have a "free consultation" with a lawyer next week.  This is
     only for him to give me an idea of what the judges are currently 
     leaning toward in NH these days.  Everyone tells me their own 
     thoughts on what could happen, I'm going to find out from someone
     who sees it all the time.  This way I can find if the things I am
     requesting would be judged unreasonable or not.  Obviously I do not
     feel I am.  But David just as adamantly feels I'm out destroy any
     possible relationship he could ever have with "his daughter".
    
    b.  I've called around to find out information on couple counseling.
     I've found someone who is geographically located between David and
     I and they allow my insurance, so the cost would only be the co-pay.
     I like the approach she has suggested taking to the counseling.  I
     want to present this to David and see if he will please, please,
     please, attend a few sessions and see if some mediation will get us
     past this mess.  The problem is, this particular person is a woman,
     and I expect he'll refuse to go to any woman.  So I'm going to call
     around a bit more and try to find a male counselor as a back-up in
     case David pulls his sexist attitude.  When I called the place, they
     have a generic "association" name and listed both a male and female
     counselor, but I got the female on the phone.  Perhaps I can just
     ask that we see the male instead.  
    
    c. In counseling I'll suggest the visitation scheduling follows the
     guidelines that seem to be set these days in court.  If they don't
     agree with what I want, I will acknowledge that.  (It'll kill me,
     but I'll acknowledge that ;-> ).
    
    If he refuses to do the counseling, which is very likely, I don't know
    what I'll do from there.  But I do not believe I will ever initiate any
    court action myself.  Heck, there's no way I can afford it.  I just
    want to try to get some sense into this mess.   
    
    What do you think?  Shall we start laying odds on what David will say?
    
    							cj *->

    
    Cj,
    
    	I hate to say this, but you can't fix his problem - if
    he really cares about his kid, HE not you, should try harder.
    If he chooses partying over seeing his kid, then let him be.
    You don't have to go out of your way to accomodate him, HE
    has to grow up and be responsible. You stick to the scheduled
    visitations, if he misses for a valid reason such as car
    problems, then it is fair to reschedule. But, under no 
    circumstances, IMO, should staying out too late, having a 
    hangover, etc, be an excuse. It is a good idea to find out
    your rights, but no matter how good your intentions are,
    you cannot make him into a responsible father. The higher
    your expectations, the more disappointed you will get. IMO,
    couple counseling is useless. It has nothing to do with you!
    If he can't even discipline himself so that he can see his
    kid the next day, then maybe you should accept the fact that
    he is not going to be the kind of father to your daughter that
    you dream about ;-(. It takes much much more than what he's
    done to be a parent. Anyone who is fertile can have kids, but
    it takes committment, discipline, maturity, humility to be a
    parent. IMO, forget about the propaganda and fads, "rights"
    have to be earned. From what I read, he does not deserve them,
    not just because your daughter had some of his genes. 
    
    	I'm sorry that I come across so negative, but, IMO, he
    has to do much more to earn your duaghter's trust and respect
    and YOU cannot teach him that!
     
    
    
                                  
    Eva
    

    Eva,
    
    A lot of what you say is valid Eva.  I think I'm persuing the
    counseling because I'm hoping someone can help him see that I'm
    not manipulative, unreasonable, controlling...etc.  It may not
    work, but we have two totally opposite opinions of what is
    happening here.  
    
    He DOES want his daughter to know him as a father.  He's extremely
    hurt by the fact that she knows (and really loves :-)  my 16 year
    old nephew better than him.  Of course, I had to throw at him that's
    his fault, which could have gone unsaid, but it's true.  I am not
    trying to make him into anything, I'm trying to encourage his efforts
    to make it better.  But he sees how that *should* be done and nothing
    else can sway him.  He feels I cannot compromise.  I only want to see
    his apartment and meet the girlfriend out of my own sick jealousy.
    
    I know I can't, and no one else can, ever change him.  I just want to
    see if someone can cast a little stronger light on things with him.
    AND me.  I'm not expecting to find out I'm blameless.   But when he
    accuses me of having bad feelings, I agree.  I say, "yes, David, I
    don't want her to go stay with you and your girlfriend.  I'm only
    human!  I don't like it a bit.  But I know it has to be.  I would not
    try to prevent it.  I'm not trying to make it harder.  But of course,
    I don't like it!".   Of course I'm still hurt!   I'm learning to live
    with that.  I can't snap my fingers and make it go away.  But I swear,
    I do not let it interfere with his seeing Angeline.  It may not help
    us in getting along, this hurt of mine, but I never let come between
    them.
    
    So, Eva, I'll take you as one vote against the counseling, :-)  That's
    fine.  You still have good points that I appreciate.
    
    						cj *->  
    
    

cj,
    As I understand the terms (maybe not too well!), what you could use is
    a mediator rather than a counselor.  A counselor would be helpful if you
    were trying to fix the relationship (which sounds broken beyond repair,
    to me), whereas a mediator would be a non-biased third party who could
    guide your discussions/negotiations with the dad.  That would let you
    concentrate on what is acceptable to you, without having to also try
    to be the unbiased moderator at the same time (too much to ask of one
    person).

    Good luck - I'm very sorry to hear things are going so badly right now.

						cheryl

    
    Cj,
    
    	> against counseling...
    
    	I am not a voter here ;-) I just don't want to see you hurt,
    over and over again. ;-(
    
    Eva
    	

    Cheryl,
    
    YES, YES, THAT'S IT!  :-)  That is much better wording than I can
    come up with.  The "mediator" I spoke with said she'd like to approach
    this as how to get us communicating now.  Iron out this visitation 
    issue, get an established schedule.  See, we can't do that on our own.
    She does not want to address past issues.   There certainly is no
    fixing our relationship-past, but we have to establish a better
    relationship-future.  Someone to calmly suggest what *might* work.
    
    Eva,
    
    I appreciate your concern.  I'm trying to be less hurt too.  You know,
    I have noticed that I honestly and truly do not love him anymore.  Now,
    that has only evolved over the past couple of months, at least to the
    point where I do recognize it as fact.  But in losing the love, I'm
    losing some of the caring.  Demonstrated by the way I acted on the
    phone.   It is not like me to get into a screaming "you're a this, and
    you're a that" match, complete with slamming down phones.   So damned
    ridiculous, that I'm embarrassed.  This could only happen by my not
    only losing love, but losing respect.  Respect is an extremely
    important thing to me.  He has hurt me the most by not respecting me.
    I can not like you, but I'll respect you until you cause me to lose it.
    
    							cj *->

    
    Cj,
    
    	After all the negatives, ;-), is there a possiblity of
    finding a mature male friend or relative to talk to David?
    Does he have someone who he looks up to and whom you trust
    to talk to? It is one thing hear something from a professional
    and another thing hearing that from someone he knows who
    cares about his well being. Like an uncle or godfather or
    something? Even a mature woman relative whom he respects
    may work too.  
    
       
    Eva

    Cj -- It never ends does it????  I agree with the last couple of notes
    regarding a mediator.  I hope it works.  One thing you might want to
    start doing is keeping a journal of when a visit was supposed to take
    place and what transpired to keep the visit from happening, so you have
    some documentation as to what really has happened (at least from your
    perspective).
    
    Keep your chin up and try the Serenity Prayer, I recite it religiously
    for my own sanity in the visitation battle I'm going through.  Some
    days it helps and other days, well......
    
    Roberta

    Eva,
    
    I tried to get him to do that back in the beginning of my
    pregnancy.  He was torn about what he wanted to do and it
    was eating him up.  I hated seeing him so upset.  I knew
    he needed to talk, but he does not "talk" and never has.
    We discussed that and I finally was able to make him see
    he needed to.  He has a friend who is a truly wonderful man,
    Drew.  I suggested Drew.  I knew he'd be impartial and a very
    fair man.  David did call Drew and met up with him, but was
    never able to bring himself to talk about.  Drew tried to 
    encourage it a bit, but it was a no-go.   
    
    He does have another friend, Chris, that he told me he used
    to talk to about all that "stuff" after the no-go with Drew.
    
    But I think the substance of his problems then was different from
    now.  He really didn't want to be a part-time Dad, but couldn't
    stay with me.  I think his "talking" now would be more of a,
    "Cindy's being a b*tch.  She won't let me see my daughter".  Someone
    else hearing this would be giving him all the advice on how to 
    "straighten" me out, or maybe legal advice.  There's no common
    person between us that could objectively see both sides.  
    
    That's why I chose a third party that knows neither of us and will
    just look at the facts.  
    
    David is not a people person.  He doesn't establish close relationships
    with many people and can't discuss his feelings.  I gave him a lot of
    credit for even "trying" to talk to Drew, and eventually talking to
    Chris.   I don't see that happening this time though because he does
    not see himself as being/doing any wrong at all now.  For him, this
    is not a decision to be made, but seems to be a battle to be won.
    
    Thanks so much for this conversing though.  It is quite helpful when
    I see my own thoughts in writing, let alone yours.
    
    						cj *->

    cj,
    
    This is just my opinion and it isn't going to be really supportive,
    please take it in the light of someone who has been there.
    
    I have problems believing a person really wants to be a "dad" when he
    parties too hardy to meet the agreed on time table and requirements, is
    constantly trying to change the rules, and is still trying to
    manipulate you like he could when you actually cared for him.  
    
    It really feels to me, from what you have written that he is trying to
    make visitation into another tool to control you, and your actions,
    more than seeing his child.  While I think you would like to think he
    really wants to be more involved in your child's life, and reacted out
    of disappointment when HE didn't meet HIS commitments around the last
    visitation, I see it more as another way to mess around with a toy he
    can't have any more.  
    
    Yes see a mediator, and yes, get counseling for yourself so you can
    learn to deal with this person.
    
    Meg

    Meg,
    
    You know, you may have just said the same things that other notes
    have tried to say.  Maybe it was something in the wording, but
    suddenly you've opened up a whole other thought for me.  I hadn't
    really considered at all that I might be the one trying to BE 
    controlled.  I have been fighting so hard against his accusations
    that I'm so manipulative and controlling and detrimental to his
    relationship (and not just with his daughter...oh no, I've cost
    him "other" friendships too!), that I never really did consider
    perhaps someone was trying to control me.
    
    This is definitely something for me to chew on a bit.  Let's just
    hope we don't create a monster here!  :-) :-)
    
    Actually, it would be a very good point for me to have in mind
    with future dealings.   And I mean that quite literally, I will not
    use it as a tool or weapon.  Just as something for myself to refect
    on when things go awry.  
    
    I can't tell you how much I hope he'll go to the counselling, but
    if he doesn't, I think perhaps I should anyways.   I just don't 
    want anything to be one sided.
    						cj *->

    When you approach him with the counselor, I'd call it family
    counseling, rather than couples.  Since he already has accused you of
    jealousy toward his new girlfriend.
    
    It's maybe not even family, since you are not exactly living as a
    family.  But it is your daughter's family, and I think you should
    approach this as a positive for her.
    
    Good luck with all of this.  I think you are consistently trying to do
    the right thing for her and I give you a *lot* of credit.
    
    judy

    Well, things didn't get much better for some time with father and
    I.  He hasn't been to see her, and various problems have arisen
    with us.
    
    Two weeks ago I finally sent him a letter (certified) stating his
    hostilities and accusations have made communication between us
    impossible.  I brought up the subject of counseling, recommended
    the one I had spoke to, provided him with the criteria that I chose
    them on, and gave him the number to call for information himself.
    It was not given as an ultimatum, only as a suggestion for us to
    receive mediation and get the visitation issue settled and some of
    this fighting over.
    
    The letter also stated, until we do resolve present issues, his
    visitation will remain on Mondays, as previously agreed.  I would
    not allow calls from him TELLING me when he was "coming to get her".
    Also, he has to call 24hrs in advance to confirm/cancel he is coming
    on any given Monday.  He also has to call the sitter in the morning
    giving her an hours notice when he will be coming.  This was to prevent
    further conflicts with her plans with the other children for the day.
    (We ran into his "no-showing" on the last Monday he said he'd come 
    get her.   Sitter and all the other children couldn't go anywhere or
    do anything because no one knew when her father was coming).
    
    Well...anyways to sum it all up.  I sent the letter, and got absolutely
    no response from him for two weeks.  I'm figuring he's off trying to 
    scrape up the dough to see a lawyer, or something is up.   Anyway, I
    called this past Monday night to tell him it's time to send me some
    more support checks (he sends five postdated ones at a time).   I'm 
    expecting World War 43 (we're up to at least that now).... and guess
    what????  
    
    HE'S AGREED TO THE COUNSELING!!!!!   He even brought it up in the
    conversation himself!  I expect someone, somewhere, probably talked
    him into it, but hey - he's going.   I told him in the letter that
    it was not counseling to get us back together, or make us "friends".
    That it was not "couple counseling"  (thanks to previous noters!) 
    because we are not a couple.   It was just a means to get a set 
    visitation schedule and get a working relationship going here for
    our daughter's sake.
    
    Now, don't think I'm doing jigs and dancing all around.  This whole
    issue is too sad for rejoicing, but it's a start in getting (hopefully)
    some peace, even if temporary, back in our lives.
    
    He is not going to be coming home from NJ for another two or three
    weeks (working overtime to make much needed money).  But said as soon
    as he gets back, he'll call and we can schedule.   So I even get a
    bonus few more weeks without him in my hair!!!   :-)  :-)  :-)  The
    best news of all.
    							cj *->

    cj,
    
    I am glad that a letter at least got things started in the right
    direction.  Hang in there.
    
    meg

    CJ -- I'm wishing you and Angeline the best.
    
    Roberta

    Sorry for the length on this.  I really need some venting today.
    Please just pass it over if you aren't "into this" today.  :-)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Well, some things change, some stay the same.  
    
    David, not getting his way, eventually went to a lawyer to have him
    act as a mediator between us (he backed out of the going to a 
    counselor) to "put on paper" a reasonable visiting schedule.  The
    lawyer and I have been communicating for a little over a month now.
    
    They asked, and with some work to initial suggestions, I agreed to
    an every other Saturday schedule, with overnights to be worked in
    later.  I had requested he take Angeline on Fridays (his work week
    has changed again so now he works Monday to Thursday, with Friday
    through Sunday off), but they would not agree to Fridays.  While
    discussing the "every other week" thing I had mentioned I'd be glad
    to let him take her every week if it were on Fridays and he could be
    consistent.  I also backed off the 5:30 return time, and now she has
    to be home by 7:00 (they had asked for 8:00, we wound up at 7:00).
    
    Well, as I said, we wound up with every other Saturday.  He has the
    option of seeing her the alternating Fridays, but he must call me
    on Tuesday's to confirm each week what he is doing.  I guess he works
    overtime on some Friday's so he doesn't want to be committed to coming
    on those. 
    
    I had also asked while we are putting the visitation "on paper" I
    also wanted to get the support set and on paper also.  The support
    I was getting was not enough, we dickered and now it is set at what
    I asked for.  This has caused delays in getting the visitation "down
    on paper", but we started the visitations according to the verbal
    agreement.  David will not start the added support until all other
    details are worked out.  (READ: "rent a child mentality"  He'll pay
    more once he knows he can see her more, which he always could anyways,
    he just doesn't). 
    
    So the first Saturday, all goes well.  The next Friday, all goes well.
    What should have been the next Saturday, he called on Tuesday and 
    changed to Friday.   Ok, fine with me.  He called on Thursday night
    and said he couldn't make Friday either.  So he did not see her that
    weekend.  Then the next weekend, should have been his Friday visit, he 
    couldn't make that.  So he has not seen her now for the past two weeks.   
    
    Now, I'm going to get to the point of why I'm writing today, because
    I'm a tad upset and it has to do with dealing with his lawyer.  This
    guy has got to see so much garbage flung from one person to another,
    I know.  I realize he's probably "seen it all".  But it still upsets
    me, I should say "insults" me when he makes some comments to me.
    
    Example:  I asked for $xxx.00 for support.  He worked the numbers
    according to Massachusetts guidelines and came up with $5.00 less than
    what I had asked for.  Now, without going too deep into it, I can 
    question the payroll check David provided him because he has irregular
    hours.  His payroll check does not show what his hourly wage is, or
    what that particular check covers for hours.   I think another check,
    worked through the numbers, might come up with more.  I did not push
    this issue.  I simply stated that I didn't agree entirely with his
    numbers, but felt $5.00 more should not kill David.  The lawyer comes
    back with "If the numbers had come up with a higher figure, you know
    you'd be asking for that!" (said really snide).   This ticked me off.
    I told him, "I realize you are used to those circumstances, but I am
    not like that.  I'm a person of my word.  I asked for $xxx.00 because
    I think that is fair.  I did not ask for more because I do not entirely
    agree with the support that courts instate.  I feel it can be
    ridiculous in some cases".   He backed off and got "nice" again.  
    
    Now the lawyer and I (so far, I'm still representing myself, but have
    gotten some good input from NOTES and a 2 hour consultation with
    another lawyer), are having a go-round for the overnights.   DAvid
    wants them to start up in three months time.  A lot of courts are
    setting the overnights at two years old, mostly if circumstances call
    for it.  I feel ours does (and so does the lawyer I consulted) because
    of Angeline's still frequent vomitting and David's sleeping so soundly.
    David is adamant against waiting until she's two (which is next Sept).
    Which I say, "ok".  I'm not going to hardline on that.
      
    So the lawyer calls today to discuss when they should start.  He wants
    it in three months from now.  I told him I thought five months would
    be a better time frame.  He asked if we could compromise then on four
    months.  I told him I had already compromised what I wanted and came
    up with five months.  He comes back with "compromised from what?  Six
    months?".  AGain, snide.   
    
    Now I'm a bit pissed.  I mean, this is all a very upsetting mess to
    start with.  I do all I can to keep my head above water and deal with
    it.  I'm trying to keep from getting too upset, and deal with the times
    I have to be parted from my daughter.  Forgive me for a minor pity
    party, but do I DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE THIS??? Talked to like
    that????  Should I have to????   No, normally my lawyer (who I'm sure
    would at least be getting a bit more respect) would have to deal with
    it.  But I can't afford a lawyer.  I'll never be able to borrow the
    money, and have to slowly pay it back.  I'm barely getting by now on
    what I bring home.  I can't afford to start having more deductions to
    go to a lawyer.   
    
    And, in the same token, I have not done a damn thing to show myself to
    be an unfair, unreasonable, troublesome person.  I ENCOURAGED the
    agreement to change to weekly visits as opposed to bi-weekly, and that
    shocked his lawyer!  So why have such a hard time treating me with some
    respect? 
    
    He has already seen his own client bounce a check on me and now miss
    two weeks in a row for visits, in just one month's time.  HELLO????  Is 
    this the poor mistreated Daddy that the wicked witch won't let see his 
    daughter?????  
    
    I know, I know...this is most likely not the arena for this.  I know
    I should be over in some other file where everyone is miserable over 
    their divorce/custody battles.   It's just, the feeling and responses 
    here are warmer.  Whether for or against what I'm saying, they're a lot 
    more helpful.
    
    And I guess all I really need is a couple of "keep the chin up"'s right
    now.  I shouldn't have let some faceless "suit" get to me like this,
    but I guess it just hurts a bit to be treated like some awful,
    vindictive person who he thinks deserves this.  
    
    Ok, well, thank for your time.  I had to get that off my chest because
    it's in a big knot and I don't want it to well up in those stupid tears
    that are just dying to take over and say "poor me".  I have a beautiful
    daughter waiting for me to pick her up today, and I really couldn't be
    "richer".  Sure would be nice if I was "taxed" less ;->
    
    							cj *->  

     cj *->

     all I can say *is* "chin up" and enjoy your daughter and the times
     with her - with the holidays coming up, you really don't *need* this
     added grief, so get as much *joy* out of the season with her as
     you can.......

     as for her dad, I assume (think I read elsewhere) you're keeping a
     journal of missed visits/late calls/etc. ??  Keep track, stick to
     your guns and remember (even if *he* doesn't) that you're trying to
     do what's right for YOUR DAUGHTER, not what's right for you or to put
     it "to" him.......

     best of luck,
     Debbi

    cj,
    
    Keep your chin up! :)
    
    You are doing a great job in a tough situation.
    
    No, you do not deserve to be treated with anything less than full
    respect by the lawyer - can I suggest one thing?
    
    Don't put up with it!
    
    Easy for me to say, perhaps tough for you to do...
    
    Call the lawyer on his snide remarks, interrupt him and ask why he is
    being this way (jerk) - list the visitation schedule that you proposed, 
    etc.
    Ask him to stop treating you this way, to be nice or ask that he
    contact you in the future when he can be nice - then hang up.
    
    Good luck,
    JR
                         

	cj,

	Hang in there.  You're doing GREAT!!! It sounds like such a 
	difficult situation and that you are being as reasonable as
	possible, it almost sounds like you might be being too reasonable
	and the lawyer might be taking advantage of that and working on
	your emotions (remember he's not working for you and your ex -
	he's only working for your ex).

	Try keep a smile on your face, it sounds like your really enjoying
	your daughter.  And if you feel like you need to, hit the ladies
	room and have a good cry, you wouldn't be the first one.

	We're with you :)

	Karen T.

    
    Cj,
    
    	You are doing great in such a tough situation. It is definitely
    frustrating when you are trying to play nice and fair, and the other
    team has different priorities! Well, maybe it helps to remember that
    this lawyer is acting on David's behalf, representing David's interest,
    protecting David's wallet; so, it is not meant to be personal (nothing
    against you personally). I mean, it would be nice if the lawyer was
    more "human"...
    
    	Hang in there.
    
    Eva
    
    
    	

Remember too that this lawyer is used to dealing with other lawyers ... and
they can and do pass these snide remarks back and forth ... and they have
the tough skin to ignore it because it is not personal ...

So, he's probably treating you as if you were another lawyer.

I'd ask him point blank to have him treat you with more respect, and remind him
that if he doesn't you will be forced to engage a lawyer who will no doubt
seek and probably get more support for you and your child in order to help pay
for the new lawyer ... when his client will lose even more.

Remember too, that while the lawyer is your ex's attorney, and representing
him, he also has a few vested interests ... the longer this drags out, the
more he makes ... 

Try to detach yourself from you ex-spouse when talking to your lawyer ... it
may help ... refer to him as "your client".  "When your cleint is willing"

Good luck

    You could also interrupt him, ask him to repeat his last statement,
    tell him when he can speak to you as a professional and with respect    
    you'll be able to take his call but until that happens you simply will  
    do not have the time to deal with him.

Presumably the lawyer will be getting paid whether he is unpleasant or 
pleasant.  Maybe you should ask if he gets a bonus for being nasty? :^)

\C

    Hi Folks,
    
    I'm feeling better this a.m.  I guess I just did a little dip there
    yesterday.
    
    Thanks for the notes on and off line.  The last couple (concerning
    dealing with the lawyer) gave me good food for thought.  Both times
    he spoke to me that way, I corrected what he was implying, but 
    perhaps I should suggest the comments not be made to start with.
    
    I spoke with David last night.  In keeping with the schedule (that is
    not yet written), this Saturday would be his day.  I called to ask him
    if he could take her either Friday or Sunday because something has come
    up for us on Saturday.  He said Friday is no good, and he can't tell me
    about Sunday until tonight (he has to check with his girlfriend and she
    works nights, so he has to call her today).  But he made it clear that
    if Sunday wasn't good, then he's taking her Saturday.  
    
    I'm thinking, "hey, for a month I've been honoring an agreement that
    isn't even done yet.  He won't consider giving me the support I asked
    for until this agreement is done.   He's been keeping her the longer
    hours that the agreement calls for, but has not come more than twice
    in the month the agreement has been "verbal".  Is he going to turn 
    around now and say "hey, it's my Saturday""!!!!!!   I sincerely hope 
    not.   Regardless of what's finally agreed on on paper, there is 
    always going to have to be some give and take.  
    
    This is all such a lesson on how things break down and get ugly when
    people are going through divorce/custody battles.  I think perhaps it's
    just a slow build up of all these "clashes" that you just get so sick
    of the other person and dealing with all this bull.
    
    And to think, just a year ago I couldn't imagine how I could ever stop
    loving this man.  I couldn't see how I'd ever get over him.  And that
    was even after he walked, and after he'd moved in with the girlfriend.
    
    It's the way he's talked to me and treated me since last winter that
    has slowly dragged out and destroyed every feeling I had for him.
    I can see how people do become so vicious and vindictive...this stuff
    HURTS!  
    
    Do me a favor, give me a slap up the side of the head if you notice
    me getting nasty, ok?     :-)    And thanks for the good feelings.
    
    							cj *->

>    I'm thinking, "hey, for a month I've been honoring an agreement that
>    isn't even done yet.  He won't consider giving me the support I asked
>    for until this agreement is done.   He's been keeping her the longer
>    hours that the agreement calls for, but has not come more than twice
>    in the month the agreement has been "verbal".  Is he going to turn 
>    around now and say "hey, it's my Saturday""!!!!!!   I sincerely hope 
>    not.   Regardless of what's finally agreed on on paper, there is 
>    always going to have to be some give and take.  

This is why you have written agreements and why people try to stick to the
letter of the agreement ... it helps eliminate the very conflicts that
you are suffering from.  It is a very lucky couple who separate with enough
goodwill to permit the kind of flexibility that you seem to be hoping for,
and hence why lawyers get involved.

You have to treat each Saturday on its own merits ... He takes the child,
or doesn't take the child.  You cannot use it as a day to day tool to
change days or anything like that.   All you can do is use it in court in
any future custody matters.  If he doesn't take the child then he has forfeited
the opportunity ... it is his loss (and the child's but that is a separate
issue and must be dealt with separately as a custody issue).

Stuart

    Stuart,
    
    I'm not sure, but I think you're saying that given you finally have
    a settled agreement, you shouldn't be flexible from there?  
    
    I mean, if some week he can't make it on Saturday, and asks for Sunday.
    I feel if I have no plans that would conflict with, I should consider
    letting her go on Sunday instead.   But I would expect the same in
    return.  Such as the case of this weekend.  I mean, I can at this time
    say, "hey, RIGHT NOW, we have no agreement", or I could say, "David,
    it could be reversed sometime and you may expect/want me to be more
    understanding".
    
    I feel you, Stuart (and a note I got off-line), are saying that type
    of reasoning is just not going to happen? or work?   Perhaps not 
    allowing changes is the only way to peace?  
    
    I'm thinking things like, birthdays, family events, etc..  There must
    be some leeway in my opinion, but am I being naive?  
    
    						cj *->

   cj *->

   I think (and what others may be saying, but I can't interpret for them)
   is that, altho' flexibility is nice and would be most gracious (especially
   under the circumstances !!) on your part, you can't "guarantee" that he'll
   be "flexible" in return - if *you* want to operate that way, out of
   goodness to your daughter, I think that's commendable, but *don't* count
   on it from him - you can only expect to "hold" him to the written agreement
   and hope for the best if the situation occurs.........

   if it were me, I'd probably try to do what you're doing, but after 2 or 3
   sessions of "inflexibility" on his part, I'd probably say "tough luck" 
   next time he asked *you* to be flexible !

   hugs,
   Debbi

I think this is essentially right ... if both parties are co-operative, then
the agreement on paper is not of particular significance, except in emergency.

In the case of non-co-operation, then the agreement is vital.  And, it is
probably important to stick with the agreement in the case one party or the
uses violations of the agreement in future potential custody battles, because
they can cause a lot of grief ...

Stuart

    I've been reading this notesfile for awhile, and I finally feel the
    'need' to post a reply...probably to commiserate more than offer help.
    
    Don't know what to suggest about the lawyer thing.  I just went to
    court in November (lawyer was even a 'friend') to try to get the
    support that was set five years ago raised.  My ex (who works for
    a company in which his father is his boss) showed up with a letter
    from his company saying that miraculously enough overtime had just
    been stopped.  Mind you I'd originally requested a modification about
    nine months prior to when he finally made it to court, and this letter
    was dated the day prior to the court appearance.  My ex's prior year
    income was $9K more than he now claims to make, and his year-to-date
    salary info as of November was about $7K more than he claims to make.
    BUT....my lawyer, and his lawyer, and the court, chose to believe his
    story about overtime being gone AND they said that unless I was looking
    at a 20% increase they wouldn't modify the amount anyway.  All I was
    able to do was get an agreement to exchange W2's at the end of each
    year, and then I get a percentage of any overtime he's worked (which
    is LESS than the percentage of his income I am entitled to based on
    state guidelines...supposedly so that he will have an incentive to work
    overtime if it's offered).  Now my ex is a field service tech...
    and most weekends when he has the girls (who are 9 and 10) they tell
    me he had to work.  I plan to wait for a W2, and then find a new lawyer
    to go back to court and prove that the ex lied through his teeth.
    
    About visitation and flexibility - like I said, I have two daughters
    aged 9 and 10 and have been separated/divorced for almost six years.
    After 8 years of marriage, he walked for another woman whom he is 
    now married to.  I did EVERYTHING to make this amicable from the 
    beginning - and I've gotten nothing but grief for it.  From day one
    we've had an every-other-weekend visit schedule, from Friday night
    to Sunday night.  He has played games with cancelling when he was
    mad at me in the past, but has done so less frequently since the girls
    have gotten older (probably because he now has to explain his absence
    to them).  He also have five weeks in the summer.  Last year
    the girls decided not to go back for the second half of their summer
    visit - and I supported them provided that they told him themselves
    that they didn't want to go.  Well - I got dragged into court by him
    over that one - and I was informed that the girls were not old enough
    to make their own decision and that if he had visitation it was his
    right to exercise it (basically regardless of whether or not I had
    to put the girls into his car kicking and screaming)...and he was
    given an extra week for the next three summer to recoup his lost
    time.  Since that incident (which by the way the ex never discussed 
    with me - the court summons simply appeared in my mailbox one day) 
    I am VERY hesitant to be 'flexible' around visitation.  The girls
    are fortunately old enough to understand what the court's decision
    was, so even if they don't really want to go they know that my hands
    are essentially tied.  
    
    I can only hope that the situation with your ex shows more promise than
    mine has exhibited.  But my overarching advice is don't do ANYTHING to
    try to make HIS life easier, especially if it's not being reciprocated.
    Just do the best you can for your daughter - and do your best to keep
    her sheltered from the ugliness behind the scenes.  
    
    Chin Up!
    /Sue                                              
      

    Hi,
    
    My wife and I are trying to find a suitable piece of furniture to use
    as a changing table as well as a bureau for our first that is due in
    about six weeks.  Does anyone have any recommendations as to what to
    buy and or where to buy it.  The southcentral or eastern MA area or RI
    is preferable.
    
    Thanks.
    Marc 

    Check out that Want Ad magazine for baby items.  It usually has some
    pretty good stuff.  I think the new issue is in the stores on Tuesdays.
    
    Lorraine

We picked a real nice double dresser (also used as a changing table)
from Spags in Worcester and also picked up a matching bureau....very reasonable
priced for the quality of the furniture. The dresser is about waist high
and double so it has 6 drawers...3 on each side. 
Works out great.

Andy

    Thanks for the tips!  We have the Want Ads and Spags sounds like a
    great idea too.  My wife seems to also have heard of some kind of
    discounted (kids?) furniture store in Framingham but we're not from the
    area and not familiar with anything much around there.   
    
    Thanks!
    Marc

    Several years ago we got one from Burlington Coat Factory that is a 
    double wide with 3 wide drawers.  It is maple colored (we did not want
    white!).  The pad is held onto the top by a strap that snaps inside the
    top drawer and on the back.  So, when we're done with diapers we can
    toss the strap and pad and still have a piece of furniture that doesn't
    look like it belongs to a baby.
    
    Irene

    I just got off the phone and had to chuckle.  Had to share this
    with those of you who have been here and "there" for me since
    this wonderful story all began.
    
    Angeline and I are going to the aquarium in Boston on Saturday.
    I invited her father to come with us, and he just called to confirm
    he's coming!  
    
    It basically all came about when he switched his last weekend (which
    was last weekend) to a week earlier because he had plans for a party
    on Friday night.    That left him last weekend and this without seeing
    her.  I called and asked if he'd like to meet up and go to Boston with
    us and then take Angeline on home with him for some extra time with
    him..bring her home Sunday.   Well, he has plans Saturday night but
    he does want to go Saturday.
    
    I just think this is too funny!  I mean, I think it will be a great
    thing for Angeline because she NEVER has spent time with both her
    parents together.  At least not to her knowledge.  And I know she'll
    just love the aquarium.  I just can't believe he wants to go!
    
    Life gets funny sometimes, eh?
    						cj *->