Conference moira::parenting

    I'll add a couple of more examples of little things that upset Matthew.
    This morning, he was doing just fine and playing in the living room.
    He stepped on a small piece of banana that his brother had dropped on
    the floor and went absolutely nuts!   A while later they were playing
    outside and I took him his vitamin.  He accidently dropped it, which
    prompted him to scream "OH NO I dropped my vitamin" and started another
    fit.  This time, I got him calmed down quick enought before it turned
    into a full blown tantrum.  My niece started this same type of
    "over-reaction" behavior at about the same age.  She is now 7 1/2 and
    starting to get over it!  I'm sure hoping you folks can give me ideas
    on how to nip this in the bud so it doesn;t drag on for years!!!!
    Thanks again for listening.   Lila

    This is just phase.
    
    Actually when my girl friend's 3 year old acts up we immediately put
    her in her room. After a few minutes, she is asked to apoligize and my
    girl friend or I make sure we explain to her why she was put in her
    room.  Most of the time she can tell us why.  We know that often times
    she just wants attention so when she throws a fit we don't even try to 
    reason with her. When she realizes that she is being put in her room
    she will sometimes apoligize right away. The two key points are that we
    don't give the girl the attention she is looking for when she is being
    bad and we make sure that she understands why she was put in her room.
    This works well for us because the girl knows that she will not get
    away with unacceptable behavior.  I hope this helps. 

    My girlfriend is going through something similar to this right now with
    her 5.5 year old (I have also raised 2 daughters so have had some
    experiance myself!) One thing we have found is that if the child is
    allowed to carry on with his temper, the anger seems to "build on
    itself" and he will get louder and angrier. What she has tried doing is
    when he starts a temper she will tell him that he needs to settle down
    and that she is going to set the timer for 2 minutes, "If you can not
    settle down before the timer goes off that you will loose a privelage"
    (such as not being able to play when he comes home from school) What
    this seems to do is tells the child that this behavior is not
    acceptable and that HE has a choice of the outcome of the situation.
    If you stick the child in the room and close the door he or she will
    become angrier and will feel like they have no control.
    
       This has worked real well for us so far and has cut down on the
    frequency and severity of the tempers.
    
    Hope this helps!

    
    Like my niece, who SCREAMED for ~1/2 hour on the ride home from a b.day
    party yesterday because she wanted a piece of candy from the party, and
    her mom said no.  Finally my sister said "If you don't stop crying,
    when we get home I'm going to take all the candy, put it in an
    envelope, and mail it back to Jason!".  Within a second Emma stopped
    crying and said "I'm not crying anymore, mommy!"
    
    Cause and effect can be pretty powerful once they grasp the concept...
    
    

    Thanks for the replies.  As far as putting him in his room, we have
    tried that but as another reply mentioned it seems to increase in
    intensity the longer it goes on, and sending him to his room seems
    to prolong it even longer sometimes!!!  However, I had not thought of
    the "timer" method.  I didn;t want to use a "timeout" because I
    usually reserve that punishment for major offenses (like hitting
    his brother), but using a timer to help him bring his fit under
    control might work.  I'll give it a try.  Does anyone have any
    ideas on how to prevent these from occurring in the first place??
    If I could just figure out some way to keep him from over-reacting in
    the first place, these fits would not occurr - or at least not as
    often!!  Thanks again for your replies  - I'll call my husband and
    let him know about it - I'm sure he'll have an opportunity to try
    it out tonight while I'm at work!  I'll let you know if it seems to
    help.  Thanks again.   Lila
    

    
    
    I still stick with my old theory on why kids misbehave - 
    
    	Because they can get away with it!
    
    That does, of course, include my own children.  They wouldn't DREAM of
    doing the things that are COMPLETELY beyond my "rules", but stuff that
    I'm not so strict about, they know they can run circles.  "Because they
    can".  As soon as the tantrum starts to become "unacceptable", you'll
    probably see them subside.
    
    But right now, he CAN do it, he WANTS to do it, so he WILL do it.  And
    if people could shoot each other and "get away with it" there'd be a
    lot less people in the world ....
    
    

    Oh - one more thing I wanted to mention - I read an article today
    just before coming into work that talks about birth order and
    children's personalities.  The description of firstborns fits
    Matthew to a T.  It doesn;t talk about being over-sensitive, but
    it does indicate that firstborns are usually perfectionists.  And
    I think that is true with MAtthew.  Maybe that is why he gets so
    upset when things don;t go just right.  Maybe he does expect
    himself to be perfect and when he makes a mistake (like dropping the
    vitamin, accidentally) he feels such a sense of failure that his
    emotions just take over.   The article indicates that as a parent
    you must help the child relax and not be so hard on himself.  Avoid
    giving him a lot of suggestions for improvement, this feeding his
    perfectionist anxieties.  A first born is particularly sensitive to
    criticism.  So, I guess I'll try harder to help MAtthew learn how
    to fail and not be so hard on himself.  I can see that it is not
    going to be an easy job, though.   Lila
    

    One thing I've learnt in sending my 8 year old to her room for a set
    amount of time, and using a timer - She likes to bring the timer with
    her, but I suspect she mucks around with it, so the timing is off.  She
    hadn't quite figured out how to work it, so she gave herself away.  Now
    I send her up to her room with one timer, and I keep a second one
    downstairs.  :-)

    I've read back over the replies in here and I'm not sure I agree
    with .6 (about misbehaving because he can get away with it).  He
    really isn;t getting away with anything, that I can see.  We don;t
    give in to whatever it is he may be throwing a fit about, but wait
    until he has calmed down and can ask nicely before we acknowledge
    whatever it is that set him off in the first place.   So, he knows
    the tantrums are unacceptable becuase they accomplish nothing for
    him, and yet they continue.  How is this "getting away with something"?
    Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.   Lila
    

    Just a quick reply to .3 regarding putting the child in her room
    causes the temper to increase.  I don't really see that happening.
    She may continue to cry for a while however sometimes she calms down
    on her own and she is ALWAYS ready to listen to us when we let her 
    out of her room. 
    
    This past weekend we asked her to clean up her toys in her room
    before she could come out.  She did a great job for a 3 year old and
    really enjoys doing chores in general, so punishment can sometimes
    work positively in unexpected ways as well.  Of course we told her
    that the work that she did cleaning was excellent so that she wouldn't
    see chores in a negative way.                                     

     re .9
    
    He can "get away with it" because he CAN scream or do whatever.  While
    it doesn't necessarily gain him anything else, it does allow him to
    deal with his emotions this way.  He is "getting away with" dealing
    with frustration/anger, by "screaming and pitching a fit".  You said
    you wanted to stop the screaming/fit .... depending on how severe it
    is, you may be able to tell him he has to sit quietly.  He can be mad
    or angry, but you're not going to listen to him screaming, and that's
    not how he should try to handle it.  Show him an alternative way to
    deal with his frustration.  
    
    Of course if it's just because he's a perfectionist, none of this may
    help at all, and "criticizing" the way he acts out may only aggravate
    the whole thing for him.  Suggest to him more appropriate ways to vent
    his frustration - give him a pillow to whack, or a jump rope, or teach
    him a "primal scream", but something that will diffuse his adrenalin
    from it all, a little quicker, and in a way that he'll be able to
    continue to use as an adult.  Just a thought.
    
    In light of the article you read, and that he IS a first born, I step
    back to an earlier reply - show/tell him that EVERYONE screws up, and
    it doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you made a mistake. 
    Point out your OWN mistakes, and his dad's and anyone else you can
    find.  When I did this with Chris (my firstborn), it seemed to "free"
    him a bit.  Now we usually laugh stuff off, but still, not always.
    
    To figure out what he's "getting away with", I guess you'd first have
    to define just exactly what behavior it is you'd like to change.  That
    he comes down on himself?  That he screams?  That he's sullen?  And
    then teach him something different.  How/why to be PROUD!  A more
    acceptable method to deal with negative emotions.  Show him how things
    that are "bad" can sometimes be "funny".  
    
    ....I dropped a bunny shaped vitamin in the snow ... Now I have a snow
    bunny!!
    
    He "gets away with it" in part because he probably doesn't know how
    else to deal with it.  That's our "simple" (HA!) job to get them
    through.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    Thanks Patty for the clarification - I understand what you mean now.
    You made some very good points, I appreciate your feedback.  I do
    believe that if I can help him be a little easier on himself and help
    him find another outlet for his angry emotions then perhaps these fits 
    will lighten up.  That is where I'm going to focus my attention for now 
    and see how it works.  I'll let you all know of any new developments!  
    Thanks again.  Lila

	My 3-yr-old can be exactly the same way that you describe.  He 
	just HATES when things don't go right.  Just this morning, I was 
	wondering if there was a "right" way to react.  As you said, the 
	timing (when we are all tired, or when his baby sister just started 
	nursing) can oftentimes make it hard to deal with in a calm, simple 
	manner.  Although I don't have a solution, I can tell you a couple 
	of things that we've done in isolated situations...

	First... I think it matters how we react when something doesn't 
	go right.  He went through a stage when he was spilling his juice 
	a lot.  Since it was usually in the morning, and we were in a rush, 
	we'd grab a cloth and hurry to clean it up.  But, it was getting 
	frustrating that he got so upset when he dropped or spilled anything.  
	So, we changed approaches.  We'd started just saying "OH well..." and 
	then having him help clean up.  Now, when something spills, he usually 
	just says "OH well" and goes to find a rag.

	Just last night, as my husband and I were starting to bath the 
	baby, and Andy was putting away his LEGOs, he started screaming 
	that something wasn't working right.  My husband called downstairs 
	for him to wait a minute, and he'd be there.  But, that just made 
    	things worse.  When Jim got down to help, I heard him say to Andy 
    	"sometimes that's really hard to get apart, isn't it?", and Andy 
    	calmed right down.  I guess he just needed some assurance that he 
    	was trying to do something that was hard for daddy, too.

	None of this helps when we don't have the time to react calmly.  If 
	I'm in the middle of doing something that I can't break from (like 
	nursing, or cooking) I try to have him bring whatever he is having 
	trouble with over to where I am.  If this doesn't help, he still 
	ends up sitting on the stairs until he can calm himself down.

	I'm sure that these episodes will continue.  But, I constantly have 
	to remind myself that Andy has a hard time realizing that some things 
	that come so easily to mommy and daddy are so hard or clumsy for him.  
	Maybe that's part of the birth order thing...  At least Julie will see 
	herself relative to Andy, while Andy can only see himself relative
	to mom and dad.

	Peggy

Well, I know my sweet wonderful baby is still in there somewhere, but 
this weekend, a baby bear has possessed Justine's body. 

Justine is 9months old & I 'm not sure how it happened. She's been sick for 
4 weeks now with a terrible cold she caught at daycare. I've taken her 
to the dr's for it twice and they say its just a cold. She was wheezing a lot 
though so the put her on albuterol as needed, and I've only been giving 
it to her when she's coughing a lot, so it's not the medicine. She could 
be teething. It looks like her upper molars are trying to push their way 
thru and maybe finally her lower lateral incisors too. When her other teeth 
came in, she was grouchy, but not like this. Do molars hurt that much worse?? 

This weekend we went to RI on saturday for a graduation ceremony and a 
graduation part on sunday I don't know if she got all worked up being 
around so many people, and so much activity for so long, not to mention 
all the food that she saw us all eating and got to share in a little  but 
yesterday has to have been the worst day I have had with her so far. She 
started stiffening up her little body and clenching or grinding her teeth and 
making this very frustrated growling sound! She just scrunches up her 
whole face and looks completely pissed! I've never seen her quite like 
this. I've seen the stubborn streak before, but not like this. My 
question is, how do I deal with this? I've called the pedi and made an 
appt for tomorrow, because I don't know if it's the cold, the teeth or 
just a temper, and if it's a temper - is this just going to get worse? 
Am I completely fooling myself to think that my sweet little baby is 
still in there, but this bear just won't let her out??

Oh, and she's also started shaking her head "no" this weekend too. So, 
it's kinda cute, but I'm hoping she doesn't turn into a monster.

Yesterday, when she was acting this way, I was just about to put her in 
her crib and walk away and let her just have a fit, but I decided to try 
one more thing and I held her close to me, rocked her and sang and she 
konked right out. Whew. I've never felt the need to just let her "cry it 
out", but I've never seen her have a fit before either.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, daycare called me on Friday to 
give me a "heads-up". Justine was really clingy and just wanted to be 
held all day, so maybe she's just not feeling well, but if that's not 
it, I don't want to pass off bad behavior either...

Is this common? suggestions, please???  I'd like to nip this in the bud...

thanks for listening to this long-winded tale,
donna

    Aaron never pulled his ears when his ear infections started, I'd make
    sure they check Justine's ears!!!  He just got really fussy, clingy,
    and when he started waking up through the night we'd know it was his
    ears, he wouldn't have a fever until they were really bad.
    
    sandy

Actually, Sandy, I also had tubes put in Justine's ears last month, 
right before she came down with this cold and I thought for sure her 
ears were infected, and that was one of the reasons I took her to the 
dr's, but they weren't and I haven't noticed any discharge from them 
either. However, she didn't sleep well at all last night and I finally 
brought her in bed with me around 3am so I could sleep too.  But maybe 
they are finally infected...
thanks for bringing it up. BTW, she does pull her ears all the time now, 
but I don't know if it's out of habit at this point or if shes playing 
with her earrings.

donna

    Another thing to think about is a sinus infection.  I know that drs.
    will tell you they are rare in kids, but I have a kid that's had 2 or 3
    of them in 2 years.  They do happen.  
    
    As for the temper tantrums, I swear that my older one has to be the
    queen of tantrums.  She has a short fuse and high expectations of
    herself and others.  We can always tell them because she'll scream at
    the top of her lungs but will have no tears.  
    
    The tact we've always taken (and had daycare take) is to move her to an
    area by herself and tell her she is free to join in the group again
    when she calms down.  Then, we leave it up to her.  We've found that
    her tantrums are a need to vent frustration.  If you try to talk her
    out of it, they just escalate.  The main thing is, be consistent with
    all of her environments (home, daycare, even out shopping!) and don't
    give in.  If you give in once, you've undone the good from the last 4
    or 5 fits you've gone through.  Even out shopping or eating we've had
    to take her to the car and let her work it out.  Believe me, other
    parents understand and you'll be surprised at the sympathic looks
    you'll get as you leave.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Irene

    I don't know if this is the case with your baby but you might want to
    contact the pharmacy about the side affects of albuterol.  My children
    both have taken albuterol syrup (generic name for Ventolin).  When they
    took it orally, they had terrible tantrums.  It was so extreme from
    thier normal behaviors that it was scary.
    
    When we administered it orally through a nebulized, we noticed the side
    affects were not so severe but still noticeable.
    
    Good Luck.
    
    Lauren

    We have had the same results from Albuterol.  My pedi explained that
    the amount of medicine administered orally is much higher because once
    in the bloodstream very little of it gets to the lungs.  With a
    nebulizer, you are targetting the lungs directly and can use much less
    of the medicine and hence have less severe side affects.
    
    
    			Mary

    Alburterol has a well known side effect of making you edgy, even
    nervous if you get even slightly too much in the blood stream.  It can
    cause anxiety, rapid heart beat and lots of other nasty side effects. 
    But, when needed it's a miracle drug.
    
    Irene
    (who is reaching for the ventolin a lot right now!)
    

    As already stated, one of the side effects is slight "hyperactivity".
    I always chuckled when our Pedi gave us the slip with Albuteral on it.
    I also wondered if he ever had to live through it...
    
    Then, our twins followed in our daughter's footsteps and required
    nebulizer treatments too.  Even without the added energy of the drug,
    they are quite a tag team.  With it...
    
    Dan
    Who's twins are rapidly aproaching their third (perhaps final :>)
    year...

    
    My 9 month old daughter has been having what I'd call temper tantrums.
    If I take anything away from her, she screams, arches her back, if
    she's on the floor, she throws herself backwards in a fit.   This also
    happens if I don't pick her up as fast as she would like.  Its just
    amazing to me that a 9 month old baby could have that much of a temper.
    Have others had the same problem?  Does it get worse, how did you deal
    with it?  Thanks.
    
    Kathy

    I've had it with both of mine.  It gets better, but is still there with
    both.  
    
    As for how to deal with it, don't EVER give in to one.  What I was told
    by many, and did myself, was move them so they can't hit themselves on
    furniture, tile floors, etc., then walk away.  If they're capable of
    understanding verbal statements, try something like "When you calm
    down, you may come and join me".  If you ever give in, you're back at
    square one.  
    
    Now that my oldest if 5, I put her in her room and shut the door.  She
    understands that if she needs to get the frustration out, she's free to
    do so.  She is not free to make me watch and listen to the noise. 
    Again, she's told she may come out when she can calm herself down.
    
    Irene

    re -1
    
    We had something similar with Kathryn, but she used to hold her breath
    until she passed out.
    
    We were given similar advice to -1..put her in an area where she can't
    hurt herself and walk away.  Took us about 6 months before she
    realised it wasn't getting a reaction and she stopped doing it.
    
    Jackie
    

    Both of my kids have used Albuterol aka Ventolin at various times - the
    8 year old has used the syrup on and off for wheezing during the last
    two years.  My 10 month old was on the nebulizer version for several
    months - first mixed with saline, then with Intal.  He's been on
    straight Intal for about 4 months, unless he gets a shade of a wheeze
    going with a cold/hayfever.  Then I add the Ventolin back for a day or
    two.
    
    I've not noticed any behavior problems during usage from either of them
    ***EXCEPT*** when using any kind of a nasal decongestant (PediaCare,
    Tylenol Cold, etc.).  There is a very strong drug interaction between
    sudafed and albuterol which produces that nervous/cranky/sleepless
    thing.  In fact, my 10 month old can't take sudafed at all, with or
    without the albuterol.
    
    The 10 month old also had a very rough few weeks while the two upper
    front teeth cut through.  Cranky, inconsolably so.  Sleepless - fell
    asleep on the bedtime bottle and then woke up an hour later to stay up
    until 1-2 a.m.  Feeding was a *joke*, he didn't want to eat much of
    anything.
    
    The crankies are gone now that the two uppers have broken fully
    through, and he's sleeping better.  Unfortunately, I can see redness
    and swelling around both the uppers and lowers, telling me that the
    next four teeth are getting ready to rob me of my sleep.  
    
    Teething is a bear, folks, and don't we all know it?!
    
    M.