Conference moira::parenting

    
    WAG - Does she think she's "Talking to strangers" if she says hello?
    
    A friend of mine kept trying to get her daughter to say Hi to me, and
    the girl wouldn't.  Her mother asked her why not, and finally the
    little girl quietly told her she "shouldn't talk to strangers".  
    
    That made it interesting .... 

    
    
    I was thinking the same thing - about the strangers.  They get
    confused, we tell them not to talk to strangers, and then on the other
    hand we are telling them it is not polite to talk to them.   
    
    We will ask our 4.5 year old to say hello, but if she is not comfortable 
    with it we don't push it.  Then there are always the times that you can
    tell they are playing a game.  Then later, after we have left we will tell
    her that it wasn't very polite.
    
    		Robin
    

    Is she just shy?  When I was  a kid, I found it incredibly difficult to
    say hello to people, and that included people I knew and would meet
    somewhere, and it was just because I was shy.  'Please' and 'thank-you'
    almost fall in to the reflex area where it just comes out
    automatically, but somehow, I always found greetings difficult.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    Cathy

    
    
    My daughter is 9 and still she isn't great on hello and
    goodbyes. I don't push it, I just let her know what should
    be done and she can do it when she is ready. 
    
    
    Eva

    No these are not strangers, I'm referring to her grandmother,
    grandfather, her aunts, uncles, and my neighbor who babysits for
    her a lot.  
    
    I don't think its a shy thing either, I think she just DOES NOT 
    like to say hello.  Shes very stubborn and independent and doesn't 
    like me asking her to say hello either.  When I ask her why she 
    won't say hello or goodbye, she says ... JUST BECAUSE.
    
    I guess its one of those greeting things (as Seinfeld would say) she
    has problems with greetings.
    
    EMS

    
    re .5
    
    Let it slide for a while. Just let her know what is the proper
    exchange. Being determined and independent are very good traits 
    to have in the long run. She is still young, don't make her think
    there is something wrong with her ;-);-) I understand it is very
    hard for parents to adjust to kids getting a personality and having 
    their own "agenda", but take a deep breath and swallow. ;-);-)
    
    
    
    Eva  

Evan is 6 and does that, too.  Drives me crazy.  He also usually will not
talk to his grandmother, godparents, etc on the telephone, even to just say
hi.  I know it hurts people's feelings sometimes, but I can't seem to get
it through to him that this is a minimum that he should do.  

One other thing:  Shellie has thought that he wouldn't say goodbye because
some of these people are people he *really* likes and she thinks he won't
say goodbye because he thinks, "If I don't say goodbye, then they won't leave."
However, he won't say hello, either (though with some people he'll bypass
the hello and just fly into their arms).

     Carol

    Carol,
    
    On goodbye, you could try the old alieut saying of "Somtime again"
    instead.  maybe Evan would go for that.  
    
    Telephones are a little too magical for many kids until they get older. 
    Seems strange to hear a voice with not face attached to it.  
    
    meg

    We have the same problem with Lee.  On most days he won't give hugs
    and kisses to his relatives or talk to them on the phone.  On rare
    occasions, he is very affectionate with them and will talk to them
    for several minutes on the phone.  He is 3.5 and most of our relatives
    are out of town so he only sees them a few times a year.  I'm not sure
    how to handle it.  It really isn't a problem except that is embarassing
    to us, his parents.
       When I was young, we *had* to kiss our relatives.  I remember hating
    that and being resentful.  I'd rather convince Lee that it's the right
    thing to do.  We just try to explain to him that it can hurt peoples
    feelings.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  
    
    
    				Mary

    
    Something that strikes me irrational here. It seems like all the
    people that are supposedly offended by the children are adults.
    Why should a little child do something just to make grown-ups
    feel good? How can a little child hurt grown-ups' feelings? Aren't
    the grown-ups the ones who know which side is up? What are we really
    teaching the kids here?
    
    Just a thought!
    
    
    Eva

    Respect.  Thats what I am trying to teach.
    
    I don't force my daughter to do anything she doesn't want too,
    including the hello's and goodbye's...but I do feel she should have
    a certain amount of respect, for her grandmother and grandfather.
    
    I've told her she does not have to talk to people on the phone, and
    does not have to carry on long conversations when she sees her grand-
    parents, but when we go to their house for dinner, or whatever it may
    be, I would like her to say hello when she comes into the house - then
    she can go play or do whatever she likes.  
    
    It really does hurt people's feelings and its getting to the point where
    our relatives are beginning to ignore her and not speak to her.
    
    EMS
    

    The rule in our house is that you don't have to like everybody but you
    are expected to be polite. Saying hello, goodbye, and responding to
    questions are considered polite behavior.
    
    I don't force my kids to kiss anyone, grandparents included. I find
    that they are hesitant, especially when they don't see some people
    frequently, and I don't feel right pushing it. I also noticed that for
    my older son, age 3-4 was clearly a time when he didn't want to kiss
    ANYONE!
    
    

    I have the opposite problem - my 2 1/2 year old wants to kiss everyone
    good by and expects me to do the same - when the nanny leaves everyday
    he kisses her good by and says thank-you - sometimes he ask me to kiss
    the nanny good bye to which I reply - Veronica knows how much I love
    her for taking care of you kids but today I'll just give her a hug. 
    
    My problem is when he plays with other kids (especially the ones he
    favorites) he wants to hug and kiss each when they're done playing -
    the parents don't seem to mind but I wouldn't want to offend anyone. So
    far no real complaints and he only has 5 or 6 friends next door and up
    the street but any comments on how I should help him once he goes to
    preschool in January? 
    
    

    .12 thats all I'm looking for.  My daughter will not kiss anyone, I'm
    lucky if I get a kiss, so we do not insist on kissing or even hugging
    grandma, but we do feel she should say hello, as you've said we 
    consider that polite behavior.
    
    But how do I get my 4 1/2 year old to understand - she absolutely
    refuses to say hello and whats worse, when someone says hello, like
    her grandparents, she'll let out this awful wine - ewwwwww - right in
    their face and turn her head.  It really is rude!
    
    EMS
       

    My nephew, Ben, won't say hello. His response to hello is to hug people
    he knows or to smile and wave his hand to those he does not. He's 4 1/2
    yrs old. He is very good at good-bye. He only responds to questions if
    they are polite questions. Ragging or teasing questions are met with
    absolute stony silence. [oh he's a fun little boy, but he's absolutely
    _had_ it with making nice to tacky adults]
    
    My niece, Carly, age 8, was very sociable and polite between age 3 and
    age 6. Too sociable and polite sometimes. It freaked people out to get
    "See ya'll later and be sure to tell that nice husband of yours that I
    said 'hi'" from a 5-yr-old or the _classic_ "I don't believe we've
    been introduced. My name is Ann Carlyle Arther" from a 3-yr-old flying
    from Boston to Atlanta. [The man was seated next to her reading the
    WSJ].
    
      Annie

    re .14
    
    Are these people respecting your child's personal space?  Imagine
    having someone at least twice your size  in your face saying HELLO
    (probably too loudly) and then what your probable immediate  reaction 
    would be.  Kids should learn politeness by example as well as being
    encouraged.  Maybe having them "ignore" your child for a few minutes
    while he or she gets oriented would be a better way.  
    
    Little kids don't have a lock on rudeness by any means in my
    experience.  Expecting a small child to act like an adult is often
    overly optimistic at best IMO.
    
    meg

    
    re .11
    
    I am playing devil's advocate here, I am just trying to put
    in another prospective, not necessarily right or wrong.
    
    As an adult, I realize that we really give people a benefit
    of the doubt when we meet new people. We say hello and goodbye
    to acknowledge people's presence. We respect other's rights.
    But respect itself is earned, not given.
    
    I still don't see how grandparents "expect" grandchildren to
    automatically like them or respect them. 
    
    I understand your problem, maybe there are ways to improve your
    child's relationship with her grandparents and relatives. Maybe
    you can tell her stories about how wonderful and nice these
    relatives are. Maybe, you can approach the relatives and ask
    them to help with this problem, afterall they are family.
    
      
    Eva
      

    I find my 4 1/2 yr daughter does just fine when I hold her in my
    arms at adult-level height.  She's very outgoing and sociable as 
    a person, doesn't do well with hello or goodbye if she's on the floor
    and adults are speaking down at her, at least initially.  So I'll
    usually offer to lift her up, introduce her or remind her of name
    connection to adult, (including out of town relatives who are only 
    seen a few times a year), after which she usually warms up quickly.  
    By then I'm hurting from holding her (45lbs) and down she goes.
    
    As far as speaking with strangers, rule is if Mom/Dad is holding her
    she can speak to them.
    
                                                 

	My daughter is only 2.5, but she often has a hard time
	with people she doesn't see frequently.  She knows who
	her uncle Steve is, and get excited when we say he's coming
	to visit, but won't say hi to him or even talk to him for
	most of the time he's there.  She doesn't say goodbye,
	then spends hours asking "Where'd uncle Steve go?" when
	he's gone.

	She talks a blue streak, like her mom, but will clam up
	around (relative) strangers.  As soon as the stranger
	walks out of sight, she'll start talking like she's been
	about to bust holding all those words in!

	I try to encourage her to say hello and good bye, and let
	her know, "It's ok to say "hi" to 'so-and-so'", but just
	explain to the adult "she needs some time to adjust" if
	she won't say hi.

	I realize she's much younger than your daughter, so the
	scenario may be different.  However, I'd have a real problem
	with adults that ignored my child for such a reason.

	Karen

    
    Well .... since you described it a little differently .... my
    boyfriend's son is similar to your daughter.  He's 3, and if he even
    LOOKS at me when I walk in, I'm amazed.  I say Hi! to him a billion
    times and try to be very nice to him.  If he doesn't run the other way,
    he at best ignores me.  It does hurt, and I do end up ignoring him
    because of it.  He DOES like me, and when he's in the mood, he can be
    as sweet as pie, but boy when he's not in the mood he sure comes across
    as a real brat.  I've actually seen him stick his tongue out at others
    (whom he doesn't like) when he doesn't want to say hello.
    
    I have no idea what's the matter w/ him, and his dad will whack his
    butt when he's intentionally rude, but it doesn't seem to matter.  Some
    times he really doesn't hear me, but I think that most times he's just
    being rotten, and it's some show of "power" ... "See!  I don't HAVE to
    say hi to you!"  And so now it's gotten so that when I visit, I don't
    even try to say hi to him anymore.  Sorry, that's a normal reaction. 
    He's not my kid, and I'm certainly not responsible for raising him to
    be "polite", and he seems pretty hopeless anyway - it just gets both of
    us more upset if I try to "push" the issue at all.
    
    My best cut at it, is that neither of his parents really give a darn
    about "greetings" either.  Someone could be there for 1/2 hour before
    they'd mosey out to say hello.  I find the whole thing pretty awful,
    but that's the way they all are, so I see where his son gets it.  I,
    personally, seek out people to greet them when they come over or I go
    over.  Greg could care less if I EVER say hi to him or not.  He just
    wants to get right into playing.  I definitely don't have an answer,
    but it DOES definitely have an impact on how I feel about him.  When he
    starts to really act up, there's already the thought in the back of
    your mind that he has the potential to act like a brat, so this is
    "just one more example", instead of being more understanding, which
    might be what he deserves.  
    
    .....yes, kids can hurt adult's feelings.  And adults will eventually
    tune out a kid that continuously acts opposite how they feel they
    should.  That's just natural ....  Maybe you can explain to her that if
    she doesn't treat the adults better, that they're not going  to like
    her and not want to play w/ her ??  Or not buy her gifts or whatever it
    is that she likes about them?  And if you find an answer that works,
    let me know .... Greg could use some help!! (-:
    

There is a book on Manners by Aliki.  He presents situations and behaviour
that is manners and behaviour that is not manners, with lots of pictures.

The bottom line in the book is, manners is caring about how other people 
feel.

My daughter likes it.  We found it a helpful resource.  It gave us a vocabulary
for talking with her about it.

Beryl

	I was perusing my November issue of Parents' Magazine last night,
	and noticed an article on manners.

	I only skimmed the article, but they had a little box in the 
	corner of one page showing what you could expect by way
	of manners depending upon your child's age.

	Making appropriate greetings was listed under the 5-6 year
	old header.

	FWIW
	Karen

	I'm sorry Patty, but I just don't see how someone can react
	that way to a 3.5 year old.  Dad's girlfriends are hard for 
	kids to adjust to at any age - I'd think at 3.5 it's quite
	difficult.  I personally would not abandon my own manners, then
	hope that sometime the child comes around.  Where will he
	get his example ??  Perhaps you could continue to greet him,
	but not press getting him to reciprocate.  I would think
	ignoring him would do more harm than good, and I think
	he's too young to understand such an implication.

	Karen

    karen,
    
    Thanks for putting in the piece from "Parents."  I think this is what I
    was trying to say about small children and adults.  Look folks, most of
    the kids you are complaining about greeting behaviors are well under
    5-6 years.  They are just barely developing the idea that they aren't
    the center of the universe and it is pretty scary stuff for a little.  
    
    Maybe it is the laid back attitude I was raised with, but my mother who
    lives in the same town says hi to Atlehi and leaves it to her as to
    when she wants to say "hi" back or to come over and show her new stuff
    and the little bird is a fairly outgoing baby.  It took Carrie (not so
    outgoing) time to warm up to people outside of our immediate household. 
    Mom and dad handled it, by making sure that she knew where the toys
    were in the house and turning her loose.  After 1/2 an hour or so of
    totally ignoring people, she would pop up to show them what she had
    made with their leggos, or how she had set up their farm.  (My mom has
    one of the most amazing collections of fisher price farms, castles,
    etc.)  Mom's opinion is that if a small, shy child isn't screaming to
    get away from a strange environment that he or she will warm up given
    time.  
    
    Patty, I am sorry you can't warm up to your friend's son.  Saying "hi"
    and letting him take it from there is the best you can hope for.  Given
    time and support he may well come around, but 3.5 is awfully young to
    expect more than what he is giving you.
    
    meg

    I don't think a 3.5 year old should be considered hopeless in
    any regards.   He is so young and very much a baby in many ways.
    Is this child a brother of your baby?  If so, he may "blame" you
    for his loss of baby status.  
    
    
    				Mary
    

    
    Patty,
    
    	I am sorry about your experience with your boyfriend's son.
    I still think we, as adults, as putting too much of burden on
    children to take care of our emotional needs. I understand
    your eagerness to be close to the child, but put yourself in a
    3.5 year old's shoes. Kids are not born to manipulate, they are 
    not born rude, they are are not born nasty. Kids pick up such 
    behavior from someone along the way. Sometimes, rude and manipulative
    behaviors are symptoms of emotional problems. Children do not
    understand their own emotions, they just act out on their
    feelings. The more insecure or unloved they feel, the more
    manipulating and rude they get. The more angry or unconcerned
    the adults get, the more insecure the children feel. The only
    person who can break this negative cycle is the adult. Kids
    need to be accepted and loved unconditionally, rude and all.
    Once the children feel secure and loved again, they will take
    down their wall. ALso, kids have bad days too. We have to
    remember that kids are little people, all the ups and downs
    we adults feel apply to them too.
    
    
    Eva 
                                    

    I have the same prolbem with my boyfriends 4 year old son. 
    When he comes for the weekend, I say Hi to him. Sometimes he might say
    hi back other times I'll get nothing out of him. I simply say 
    "hi Brett"  "Ok if you dont want to say hi now, you can say hi to me
    when your ready to."  later on in the day he'll say hi to me and tell
    me he missed me, or he can go all day "talking to me or asking me for
    things, then at bed time will say "Hi" "Goodnight" 
    I think for a child of his age it's confussing for him so I dont push
    it...  I dont push it with his gilrs (age 10 & 8) either. when they are
    ready they know i'm there to say hi back.  

    I'm with Patty on this.  While I agree that it takes some kids time to
    warm up, both in the duration of the given visit and the number of
    visits by the relative in question, I think sullen, non-communicative or
    outright hostile behavior should not be "loved unconditionally"!
    
    If I were the relative, I'd get on eye level with the child, try to
    make an exchange of greetings pleasantly, and if that failed, explain 
    to the child that if they need time to warm up, I understand.  *BUT* 
    I don't <talk to/play with/allow myself to be interrupted by> 
    children who won't <say hello/smile/stop sticking out their tongue at me>.
    
    I think a 3.5 year old can understand that.  And *I* can understand
    that an under-5 child just may not be "into" greetings; the child Patty
    describes seems a little further down the path to brattiness, IMO.
    
    Leslie

    My daughter, who is 4-1/2 also isn't overly friendly or affectionate. 
    She's been this way since she was born.  She gives out her kisses and
    hugs very sparingly.  
    
    We make it clear to everyone (grandparents included) that Gina does
    not have to kiss or hug anyone.   But we make it clear to Gina that
    she cannot be rude.
    
    This certainly doesn't always work.  She's very independent and only
    does what she wants.  But I think we are being clear and we don't
    punish her when she doesn't do what *we* want.  
    
    The logical consequences expressed in an earlier note are good.  If
    she treats people rudely, then they may not treat her as nicely either.
    
    One thing she does a lot is create cards or artwork and asks me to send
    them to her grandparents.  They appreciate this and realize that she
    does like them and think of them.  I make a special effort to send the
    stuff to them to keep the affection between them as strong as possible. 
    (They live in PA and CT, so I think that also contributes to her
    reticence.)
    
    I will admit to feeling unhappy when my Mother remarked that Gina
    hadn't even hugged her once when we were there for three days over
    Thanksgiving.
    
    judy

    I have the same problem with my son.  Maybe it is more common than you
    think.  He is now 5 and his behavior is much, much better, but there are
    still those times when he is rude and refuses to say goodbye to 
    grandparents, friends, aunts, uncles sometimes even Mom and Dad.  He can 
    be very sweet when he wants to be, but other times he can't be bothered.  
    His response is a simple "No, I don't want to."  Like your daughter, he is
    very strong-willed and independent.  He is not shy since he has no
    problem saying, "NO." I find myself bending over backwards to get the 
    kind of behavior from him that is acceptable.  I also have to accept 
    that it is the nature of his personality.  He is also old enough now 
    to know that his rudeness can hurt him, because he won't be invited 
    places.  The problem is that, "He could care less."  It hurts me more to 
    see him acting this way, and to know that he doesn't get as many 
    invitations out as the rest of his cousins.  I don't know that anything 
    I do can change his personality so I try to work around it the best I can.
    There are days when I have this social butterfly who says "Hi, I'm Steven,
    what's your name, this is my brother and sister...etc."  And there are 
    days when he refuses to say hello.  I did begin punishing him when he is
    rude, usually by sending him to his room, which works for us.  I've done a
    good job teaching him what polite behavior is, and he knows it, he just 
    sometimes chooses to disregard it.  I feel it is important that he respect
    people, and part of that respect is obeying his parents.  I also am trying 
    to be more forceful with him since some day he will be a teenager, and if 
    I can't get a 5 year old to show proper respect, what will happen when he 
    turns 16 ?  I don't think this helps you much, but it is an
    understanding ear to let you know that you are not alone and all you
    can do is keep trying to reinforce proper manners and hope that as she
    gets older, she will begin practicing everything you've taught her. 
    Like I said, Steven is much better.  I do remember that he improved
    after I changed babysitters, and then again when he started pre-school. 
    He is now in kindergarten, and his teachers say he is a real charmer,
    they also say he that in some cases he needs to learn to express his 
    emotions better.  Let your daughter know that you love her no matter
    what, but that it makes you sad when she behaves poorly and doesn't say
    goodbye to Nana or whoever.  Good luck in your efforts.
    
    Sue  
    ear.     

    Thanks for all the responses, it does make me feel better to know that
    my daughter is not the only child that behaves this way...it's still
    difficult to watch her behavior though, as she is well aware of good
    manners and polite greetings and definetly chooses NOT to use them!
    
    As I stated earlier, I did make a 'MANNERS' chart and have placed it
    on the refrigerator.  We sat down together and listed all the 'good'
    manners (hello and goodbye were listed) and she has been gaining
    checks marks for each 'good manner' she uses. After 6 marks, she
    receives a small prize.  Well, it took her a few days, but she got all
    6 marks and I let her pick out a small toy as her prize.  Now yesterday
    as we were leaving her pre-school she turned to her teacher and said
    'goodbye see you tomorrow' she has NEVER done that before.  Then she
    said do I get another check on my chart?  And I said, yes you do.
    It may not be the best solution (sort of like bribery) but it is 
    making her more aware of using good manners, and she can see the
    positive response she gets from people which will hopefully stick in
    her mind..
    
    I hadn't stated before, she would never say hello or goodbye to her
    teachers at school either...and I KNOW she likes them very much.
    
    I will pick up the book by Aliki also and see what they suggest.
    Thanks for all the information.
    
    EMS
    

    
    Well .... Greg and I have been around each other since he's been 1 year
    old.  I certainly do not think, for a second, that he's the least bit
    uncomfortable of me, nor jealous of his brother (the baby).  It's not
    just me that he's rude to - it's just a trait of his.
    
    As for "helping" him through this, his parents have essentially tied my
    hands.  His mother **FLIPS** out if she find I've said a WORD to him,
    and I get a MAJOR frown and a "talking to" afterwards, if I say
    anything to him in front of his dad.  Occassionally, I can say
    something TO his dad, but then his dad seems to overreact to the
    behavior.  
    
    I have 3 kids of my own, and understand how "young" they are still, but
    this kid ... there's just something "not right" about him.  The first
    problem is that he Does Not Listen.  Not at all.  No matter what you
    do.  No matter if you get right down in front of him and hold his face
    in your hands, and try to look right in his eyes .... he's in some
    other world, and really, could care less about what you say.  He HEARS,
    but he doesn't LISTEN.
    
    Goes something like;
    
    Greg, put your coat on.
    
    la-dee-da, he keeps playing w/ his toys.  Then, when you're not
    watching for a second, he'll go off in the other room.
    
    GREG!  Put your coat on!
    
    Nothing
    
    Go find him.  Greg!  I said put your coat on! 
    
    Ignores you for a min then, What Daddy?
    
    I said put your coat on - we're going to get an ice cream.
    
    Oh.  Okay.  Continues to play w/ his toy. 
    
    Then dad usually brings his coat.
    
    Greg, it's time to put your coat on.  Now.
    
    No!  Then he squirms/runs/scoots, or whatever, to avoid being touched,
    usually laughing the whole time.
    
    (If this was my kid, I'd be ready to strangle him by now!).
    
    Then they do this little dance where Dad will chase him for a while,
    then give up for a while, then start over again.  Eventually he'll
    capture Greg, give him a few solid whacks on the butt until the kids
    bawling, and THEN they put the coat on.  Simple!
    
    This is just the way he IS, and I seem to be the only person in the
    world (well, aside from his grandmother, who's being driven batty by
    his behavior!) who thinks there's anything "wrong" with it.
    
    If it were up to me, I'd just head out the door, make him think we were
    leaving w/out him - he'd come running.
    
    Anyway, so I'm not allowed to intervene at all when it might come to
    improving his behavior, and it's ruder than I'm willing to accept.  So,
    sorry, but I do ignore him.  I think that's better than sitting there
    trying and trying and trying and getting so frustrated that I end up
    really disliking him.
    
    You couldn't pay me enough to watch him though .... It's been 3 yrs
    since I've had a kid his age, but even my 1 year old is better behaved,
    and knows enough to LISTEN!
    
    I fully expect *ALL* children (pretty much regardless of age) to test
    the rules, and see what they can get away with, and learn what they
    CAN'T get away with, and for the most part, be able to "act
    appropriately".  Whatever the parents define as appropriate.  
    
    I can't believe that some of you are saying that you should love a
    child no matter HOW they act .... or maybe you just haven't been around
    some of the kids I've been around!  WOW!!  There definitely needs to be
    behaviour that is unacceptable, and some repurcussions for that "bad"
    behavior.  If that means that I don't seek out Greg when I get there,
    because he usually ignores me, and he CARES, then he'll change it.  I
    don't think he cares.
    
    And maybe the more aggravating piece is that I DO know he likes me - he
    always asks for me, and will chat on the phone sometimes, and enjoys
    the time we do play together.  He can just be very rude sometimes, and
    it's that rudeness that I'm not willing to accept from him (or any
    kid!).  
    
    I might suggest the manners chart to his dad .... unfortunately the
    whole subject is liable to send some sparks flying ... I don't think
    Greg deserves to be smacked so hard (and maybe not at all) for it, but
    certainly SOMEthing needs to be changed!!  But, no one's EVER taken the
    time to talk to this kid, and he's TOTALLY out of touch w/ his own
    feelings, and how his actions may cause others to feel.  When he was
    little, they always felt that since he couldn't talk (and he talked
    late), he couldn't understand, and they never really talked to him. 
    I'm still surprised at how little he really does understand.  "Go
    throw that diaper in the trash" is too complex for him to deal with.
    
    Poor Greg .... I hope he improves, but I don't see how that's possible
    with what he's left to work with.  But it doesn't mean I have to love
    every aspect of his personality either!
    

                    
    Patty,
    
    	It bothers me that some noters put the blame, shame and
    responsiblity on the child. The child is NOT at fault. He/she came into 
    this world with with a clean slate and we, adults, program him/her with 
    proper information to survive. If the child turns out rotten, especially 
    at this young age, it is not his/her fault. The parents are the ones 
    responsible for the outcome of the upbringing. This is no point 
    pointing a finger at the child, since the child is not in charge.
    
    	There is a BIG difference between loving a kid unconditionally
    and approving his behavior. I believe, as parents, we are here to
    stand by our children no matter what happens. This does not translate
    to condoning bad behaviors. Bad behaviors can be symptoms of emotional
    problems, which cannot be fixed by discipline. Loving a child
    unconditionally in this case means, understanding and accepting that 
    the child has a problem, owning the problem and the solution and trying 
    our best, putting away our own ego, pride and baggage, to find out the 
    cause of the misbehavior and work to fix the problem TOGETHER. We, as 
    parents and adults, are on the kids team, we are the team captains. We 
    also have to keep in mind that the behavior is just ONE aspect of the child, 
    there are other aspects of the child that need loving.
    
    	There are pediatricians who specializes in developmental issues.
    There are child psychologists who may be able to help in this
    situation. I believe the parents are the ones with the responsibility
    to take action.                               
    
    Eva

    
    Patty and others,
    
    	I would recommend the books by John Bradshaw for parents
    whose kids are growing up in a difficult family situations.
    Bradshaw's books were written to help adults from dysfunctional
    families work on ridding their baggages. They are also very helpful
    to parents in understanding what emotional nuturing children need
    to grow up into healthy adutls.
    
    Eva 

    
    
    Maybe when we start to think about why some ADULTS are rude
    and cold, we may begin to understand why some kids behave
    similarly. 
    
    
    
    Eva

    The problem I have is how do you explain to a grandparent when the child
    doesn't want to talk on the phone?  evidently my 7 yr old daughter
    refused to talk to my mother last night -- she'd called to wish them a
    happy chanukah and to see what they'd gotten [probably also to make
    sure that they liked what she'd sent...] and evidently [i was at a
    meeting] Shaina was in bed, listening to a story, and refused flatly to
    get out of bed and talk.  My husband tried to explain that Grandma
    didn't know she was interrupting, but that didn't work. She often
    refuses to talk to either set of grandparents on the phone -- her
    birthday last year was a horror because she wouldn't talk to anyone! --
    but is fine with them in person.  So my mother, in her infinite wisdom,
    reverted to her childish behavior, and said then maybe she wouldn't
    send her anything -- which my son duly reported to his sister [kids are
    SO marvelous].  Unfortunately, the kids know she really doesn't mean
    it. So that tack won't work.  She will send a thank-you note, and
    pictures, and lots of other things; that's not the issue.  It's just
    how to you convince someone that they're not being slighted?  That the
    kid just felt like being perverse?  ARGH!
    
    sandy

    
    I would think that grandparents have BETTER ideas about children
    than parents do, maybe they FORGOT all about it. Just let the
    grandparents know that the child is not comfortable on the phone,
    it is a phase, they'll grow out of it and it is nothing personal. 
    Grandparents should try to remember what it was like being parents;
    I'm sure they had their share of frustration. Ask the grandparents
    for advise, like "Was I like that? How did you deal with it?" 
    Maybe they don't have much to say but they may start to understand
    the situation.
    
    
    Eva

   Hmmm... I may take some heat over this, but its only my opinion, so
   feel free to toss it out if you disagree....
   
   What's the real issue?  Is it a matter of trying not to offend some
   relatives who feel slighted?  Or is it the somewhat larger issue of
   teaching general manners?  If its _just_ the relatives, well, try to
   make them feel better if you need to, but I wouldn't worry about it
   too much.  I mean, really, your kids can't offend me (or the
   relatives) without my (their) permission, right?  If I choose to take
   offense because someone won't talk with me on the phone, there isn't
   much you can do about it.  As much as I want my kids to behave the way
   I would like them to, they won't always, and I can't control how
   someone else feels about it.  Neither can you.
   
   That's not to say that you shouldn't try to correct the manners if you
   really want to, but try not to let the relatives' feelings cloud your
   judgement about which manners are really important and which are not.
   
   These are your kids, and you don't have to answer to any relatives
   about the actions of your kids unless you choose to...  but that's
   tough to do sometimes, isn't it..
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom

Hey, my opinion on phone calls is that I got a telephone
for my own convenience.  I answer it when I am willing
and able to do so, and don't when I'm not/can't.

Look at it this way - if you were having a conversation
with someone and another person interrupted with an
entirely different topic, that would be rude.  Imagine
the telephone to be a person, and it is still rude.
(I drive store clerks crazy, if they try to excuse
themselves to answer a ringing phone, I don't let them.
When they understand my point, most of them agree with
me completely).

My children have the same right.  When my parents call,
they are allowed to say that they cannot come to the
phone right now. After all, I do not explain why I
am unavailable to be interrupted and they don't have to
either. But I *do* insist they call their grandparents 
back within a day.

BTW, Elise (4) is very irratic on returning greetings.  
We simply point out to her that it is polite to return
greetings and she should keep working on it.

Pat

    I agree with the last 2. My kids usually talk on the phone, but
    sometimes they just don't want to.  And this even included talking to
    their father while he was living out of state the last year. Sometimes,
    they just tell me they can't come to the phone because they're busy, so
    I report that to whoever is on the phone, and we usually get a good
    chuckle out of a 3-year-old saying s/he's too busy right now.  I don't
    think it's a big deal to get all worked up about.  I put it similar to
    I don't make them hug and/or kiss anyone they don't want to, and that
    includes grandparents. 
    
    I figure if you don't push it, they will eventually figure out what's
    rude and what's polite as well as what is comfortable for them relative
    to their own shyness.  I've got one who will talk to _anything_ and one
    who talks sometimes, so we just deal with the different behavior as it
    comes up.
    
    Cathy

    RE: Eva,
    
    I *NEVER* said that I don't love Gregory.  I do.  Sometimes he can be a
    REALLY sweet kid and a lot of fun to be with.  I care deeply about/for
    him, and what happens to him.
    
    I do not, and WILL not, however, accept that type of behavior and act
    like "it's fine".  It's NOT fine.  I'm NOT able to "do" anything about
    it, as far as trying to correct him, or I sure would.  So, when left in
    that position, I try to ignore his bad behavior.  I don't understand
    what you think I should do ??  As I stated in .31, I have NO 'power' or
    ability to change his behavior at all.  His parents only SOMEtimes see
    it as a problem (probably more confusing than anything for Greg to
    understand).  I only see Greg a few times a week at most, so am not
    with him often/long enough to be able to "change" his behavior by
    example, cajoling, disciplining or whatever.  
    
    My whole point was, I can't DO anything to 'change' him.  I never said
    it was HIS fault. The way he's being raised, he's being allowed to be a
    brat.  I think there's a natural tendency for people to be
    self-centered, and in general people need to LEARN to be considerate
    and polite and giving.  He's not consistently shown that these things
    are necessary, and thus hardly ever acts that way.  No, it's not his
    fault, but there's also nothing I can do about it, and it's some pretty
    nasty behavior to just sit by and "accept".  
    
    I love HIM, but sometimes I hate the way he acts.  When he's acting
    badly (and he KNOWS he's doing it - this isn't shyness or anything like
    that - it seems more to be defiance), I am not going to sit there and
    pretend that everything's okay.  It's NOT okay, and everyone treating
    him w/ kid gloves and trying to "spare his feelings" is probably half
    of what's gotten him into this attitude/behavior in the first place.
    
    Thank you for the book recommendation - I'll have to take a look at it.
    If for nothing else, than for Jonathan who has 2 step brothers, and a
    step-brother & sister, w/ completely different "rules" of what's okay
    and what's not.  This'll be fun as he gets older, and watches them all
    getting away w/ different things.
    
    Geez.... it gives me a headache!  
    
    I do love Greg, and would like to help, but am not allowed.  But THAT
    doesn't mean that I need to just accept whatever he dishes out - I
    don't care WHOSE kid he is.
    
    You wouldn't pay much attention to a rude adult, and make a point to be
    sweet and accepting of them either .... it's really not SO different. 
    I have as much control over him as any adult, and the fact remains,
    that in both cases, it's not something I want to encourage.
    
    Blast away ....
    
    

    
    Patty,
    
    	I think we have a disconnect here. I never said we should love
    the bad behavior, I was saying we should still love the kid,
    regardless of the behavior. The reason I emphasize that is because
    you questioned, in a previous entry, why people could unconditional
    love a kid who acted out. I was just explaining there is a difference
    between loving the kid and loving the behavior. I think you are in
    agreement.
    
    	I wonder if just being a true friend, not another parent figure, 
    to the child can help, like someone who will listen and not pass
    judgment and show acceptance. I don't think discipline is the answer, 
    but rather reassurance that he is wanted and loved by a mature adult
    who is there for him. I think getting along with people is much more
    complicated porcess than, say, learning to walk or usng the bathroom.
    The child has to feel good about himself first before he can feel
    good dealing with others.                     
    
    	I understand how difficult it is on the receiving end of bad
    behavior. We can ignore or get upset about rude adults, but this
    is a little child, still growing and learning. The reason why I
    brought up rude adults is that if we get over the rudeness and
    get to know these rude people, we'll find that these rude people
    are usually very hurt inside, they have very low self-esteem,
    they don't like themselves very much and thus, they don't like
    other people and things very much. For people to be nice to others,
    they have to feel that others are worthy.
    
    	I am not doubting your ability or your love. The reason why I
    keep at this is, it is very hard for parents to change gears, from
    taking care of physical needs to taking care of emotional needs of
    our kids. It is really hard to see our little babies grow into little
    people with their own emotional complexes. 
    
    
    Eva
    	
    Eva

    Eva,
    
    I guess our point of difference is the term "unconditional love".  I do
    love him, all the time.  But it's more/less apparant based on his
    actions.  Not his FAULT, but anyone's actions DO cause REactions in
    other people.  I thought that you were using "unconditional", as, no
    matter how he behaves I should get right down there w/ him and be as
    sweet as pie (while he sticks his tongue out at me, or whatever). 
    THAT'S where I draw the line.
    
    That's very big of you that you're willing to meet someone very rude,
    and still take the time to ignore that and get through to the "hurt"
    person underneath ... I guess I don't have the patience to "keep
    trying" with people I don't even know. (and this might be a good point
    for kids to learn - if you're continuously rude, people WON'T enjoy
    your company).
    
    And so it goes .... last night we all went out to dinner, and he was
    sweet as pie, and had a HUGE smile and giggle and a big Hi! and
    explained his whole day to me, and was incredibly warm.  And when we
    were leaving, he jumped out of his dad's car, to come back over to mine
    and say an extra good bye to me and Jonathan.  
    
    .... inconsistent at best, but this was clearly unusual behavior for
    him!  But he was SOOOOOOoooooooo cute when he told me how they made
    play doh at school, and he made a snake, and the snake bit him, and
    then proceeded to show me just where!  They're so funny!  Maybe he'll
    learn from seeing that people are a lot happier when he's friendly. 
    Given what I have to work with, that's about the best I can do - to try
    to be very responsive when he does "act right", and just ignore him
    when he "acts out".
    
    Patty

    
    Patty,
    
    	I understand what you are saying. I think I didn't make myself
    clear that unconditonal love to me does not mean showing approval
    to unacceptable behavior, that is abuse, IMO. I was trying to say 
    that just because we take things personally sometimes, we cannot 
    take away the love and support children need. The love itself is
    an ocean, not a tap that gets turned on or off. Basically, we can't
    use giving and not giving love as reward and punishment.
    
    	I was also trying to get to the point that we should find out why 
    the kid behaves that way, not just superficially label the behavior 
    as bad. I think there much more to it than just changing actions.
    
        My heart aches when I hear children, even adults, getting 
    caught/stuck in emotional turmoil. With adults, I find that sometimes
    it is just like having an emotional roadblock, when somebody else comes
    along and point out the roadblock, people may start working on tearing
    down the obstacle. 
    
       
    
    Eva