Conference moira::parenting

    
    I am a bit confused reading .0.
    
    So, my assumptions are: 
    
    	- your child is being reprimanded by/talked to another parent.
    
    	- you think the tone of voice used by that parent is inappropriate.
    
    
    My husband and I have different parenting styles, we have the same
    values, but the approaches are different. My husband is gentle and I
    am much more abrassive. My daughter understands that people are
    unique. Just because I have a short fuse does not mean I don't love
    her. Just because my husband is mellow does not mean she can get away
    with things. The approach and the delivery should not be that important
    as long as the intention and the message though. There are and will be 
    people with a good heart who are not touchy-feely, kids need to know 
    that, IHMO. There are and will be people who don't like kids, kids need 
    to know that, IMHO. 
    
    I think it is important to explain to the children the good intention
    (I assume) that this parent has. At the same time, point out the
    differences in parenting style, without passing judgement; and let the
    child decide which style works better for him/her. This may be a
    good opportunity to teach that child about his/her worth vs. others
    treatment of them.  
    
    	
    Eva

The following is a reply to the basenote which is being posted for a member of
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If you wish to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and
I will forward it to the anonymous noter.    Your message will be forwarded
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      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator
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I read the basenote and reply .1 in regards to different parenting styles.
Like .1 my spouse and I also have different parenting styles and I guess
to an extent I agree with .1 that kids need to understand that people do
have different styles.  But I think too that some styles are hurtful to
kids.

For instance, the basenoter mentioned the "tone of voice".  I hate to admit
it but I can be one of those "tone of voice" parents.  I have an almost
4 year old who is VERY perceptive.  My spouse and I have been having some
marital problems of late and unfortunately  I'm a yeller whereas my spouse
is quiet.  My child has heard me yell at my spouse (some not so nice things
I must admit) and immediately after they are said you can see the reaction
in my child.  Hurt/confusion and yes to an extent even fright in their eyes.
Why just this past weekend, when I was just having a miserable day with my
spouse my child said to me "Mummy, you yelled at me when I was getting 
dressed and you yelled at me again now.  How come?"  Geez, I felt like a
crumb and just hugged my kid and tried to explain that I was tired, etc.
and apologized.  My child also witnessed me again yelling at my spouse and
after I left the room went to my husband and said "I love you Daddy even
if Mummy doesn't love us".  Let me tell you how that feels.  It feels LOUSY.

I agree with .1 that kids do need to learn that a short fuse doesn't mean
less love and I have tried to explain this to my child.  I said that just
because Mummy yells that it doesn't mean Mummy loves him/her any less and
that I will try not to do it because I know it upsets him/her.  But I can
see the hurt in his/her eyes when I do that "tone of voice" thing or yell
too much.  They are children and they are our responsibility.  

Now as far as the basenoter goes...I do agree that by 2nd grade a child needs
to accept more responsibilties for what he/she volunteers to do or is
assigned to do.  But I hope that I am learning from my child's reactions at
the tender age of 4 that belittling, "tone of voice" or whatever you want
to call it isn't necessarily the way to reinforce the issue at hand.  God
I hope I'm learning!  I was really really upset by how I said things in front
of my kid lately and like I said they are so very perceptive.  We are also
getting some help for our marital problems as well.

I know I've rambled here but just want the folks to understand how tone of
voice can be damaging.  Good luck.  This parenting thing can be tough at
times.

      "Changing"

    When I first saw "tone of voice" I had a flash-back to my own
    childhood.
    
    I had a parent who used all the right words, but the delivery was
    scathing. The end result was far from pretty for either of us. 
    
    Sure a child needs to learn that there are people who are perpetually
    sarcastic or who have a short fuse or that people have bad days. But
    for one the the people that the child has the most cause to trust and a
    high level of emotional dependence *constantly* use a tone that
    belittles or shames doesn't teach that. It saps self-esteem and builds
    distrust. It can create a fear of closeness.
    
    After all, if this is Mom/Dad's reaction to me -- and its "The Law"
    that Mom & Dad have to love me best and most of anyone -- then what
    must others feel about me?
    
    Which isn't to say that I don't feel that children should know when
    they've messed up and could have done better. They should be told in
    simple and direct terms.
    
    But what does a whip of a voice accomplish in the long run?
    
      Annie

Boy, this is obviously a hot spot for me.  My husband and I are also
having marital problems.  And parenting style is a BIG discrepancy for
us.  In our case it is the use of sarcasm and negative criticism and
negative categorizing.

The sarcasm is used as an indirect way of controlling.  (You must not like
that toy, you keep leaving it on the floor so it can get stepped on.)

I know that not all criticism is negative, but his is.  An example might
be to skip over the fact that a bed was made without nagging, but make a
big deal out of it being lumpy.

And by negative categorizing I mean something that borders on name
calling.  (You're such a slob - you never put your shoes away.)

And along with all of these comes a tone of voice that does indeed cut to
the bone.  Now, I was brought up with tone of voice, so to speak.  I could
tell exactly how mad my mother was by her tone of voice when she said my
name.  And it could be subtle enough that she could correct me or get my
attention in a room full of people and no one else (except my sister :-)
would notice.  So I know that tone of voice can be used effectively and
with some degree of compassion.  So maybe I am too sensitive to it, but it
does hurt.

I'm not sure this is at all helpful to the base noter, but your scenario
sounded like it could have been in my family.

Hang in there.  And take care of yourself.
+++
Debby

    
    Wow, I just ran into a situation like this last night. Our daughter,
    Anna, has recently had a set back in her potty training. She's 3 1/2.
    When things finally seemed back under control, she got an ear infection 
    and the ammoxicillian was giving her diarreha, so bad this past weekend
    that I had her in diapers all weekend. Come Monday she's been basically
    dry and has even been pooping on the toilet which was not happening
    before all this. Well, yesterday she came home from daycare with no
    pants on since she had soiled them both. When I walked in the house
    (my husband had picked up the kids) I asked her what happened and my
    husband said she had wet all her pants, she was a bad girl and she
    couldn't have any candy or watch any TV. I didn't agree with this
    tactic.
    I feel she's only 3 1/2; she's just gotten through some tough times,
    and she's going to have some accidents. I didn't confront my husband
    about it, instead I supported his punishment, but paid a lot of
    attention to her and gave her a lot of extra love. 
    Having different parenting styles is difficult. Yes, I may be an old
    softy sometimes, but not when it counts. My husband has much less
    patience and will be much stricter. If he's been stricter than I feel
    he needed to be, I will support his "punishment", but I'll explain to
    Anna what she did wrong so she understands. I don't know if this is the
    right approach to take, but it seems to work. Later last night, Anna
    asked Daddy to read to her and was talking buddy/buddy with him.
    
    Patty

The following is being posted for the basenoter.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

*****************************************************
    
re. Note 843.1    

 >>>> The approach and the delivery should not be that important
 >>>> as long as the intention and the message though.

     This may be true, but I'm afraid that I don't necessarily agree.  
     Perhaps it is  because when I was growing up, my own fathers
     "tone of voice" was enough to tear me to shreds even if the
     words/repremand was suitable. So I know how it feels to have someone
     cut you to shreds, not necessarily with words, but with the "TONE Of
     VOICE" in how the words are spoken.   As I said, I didn't disagree with
     the content of what was said, but how it was said.  To me this smacks
     of "verbal" abuse.

    
 >>>>I think it is important to explain to the children the good intention
    (I assume) that this parent has. At the same time, point out the
    differences in parenting style, without passing judgement; and let the
    child decide which style works better for him/her.

    I agree with you that the child needs to understand that parents will
    have different styles in parenting, which is why I don't want to say
    something to this parent in front of the child. The last thing we need is
    for the child to play up those differences.  But, I feel that my child
    is now afraid to talk to this parent.  For example.  If my child does
    something that is wrong and we have a discussion about it.   (And I'll 
    admit also, that sometimes my tone of voice may not be appropriate either)
    but, my child hasn't refused to come talk with me or acted like they
    were scared of talking to me.   My child has actually told me that 
    they didn't want the other "parent to talk with them".   This child
    doesn't want the other parent to help him with his homework and he 
    absolutely refuses to read to the other parent.   So,  I just can't 
    believe that in this instance, the "tone of voice" isn't having a 
    negative impact on my child.

    I've suggested "counseling" to help us get over the parenting differences 
    as "marital" differences, but this suggestion done nothing but bounce off
    a brick wall.   

    I don't want to come across judging - we each need to do what we need
    to do but I will share my experience -
    
    My mother had the "tone of voice issue" you know what I grew up
    believing I could never do "it" right - whatever it was - I also grew up
    with many self esteem issues because this tone of voice when I
    misbehaved was used over and over again - I also learned to just take
    it.
    
    Bad self esteem, verbal abuse ( that what I choose to call it), being
    raised more with fear than love, and unrealistic expectations to try to
    meet = a dysfunctional kid (me) who developed a booze problem by 22.
    
I don't blame my parents - they did the best they could - they simply used
    the parenting skills which were used on them - however I got sober at
    25 have now been sober 6+ years and have two kids - 1 and 2 1/2 who are
    raised with love love love and more love - doesn't mean we don't have
    time out or no other displine we do - we just choose to get our point
    across without yelling or hitting... just food for thought.
    
    BTW - The other day my mother said to me, "tina - your are such a great
    mother where did you learn your parenting skills because you sure
    didn't learn them from me - The most loving thing my mother has ever
    said....
    

    
    re. 0
    
    I am sorry since I didn't know your children were so affected.
    Thanks for adding more details.
    
    I think my original reply was emphazing on letting the children
    know they are not the problem, it is the other parent who has
    the problem. I don't want to imply that I condone the action
    or belittle the consequences.
    
    Is the other parent a teacher helper? Can you make arrangemnt
    so that your children will not be exposed to this parent,
    meaning can some other parent do it? 
    
    
    Eva 

    RE:  going to counseling
    
    If you are considering counseling, then just do it.  You do not
    need to have the whole family present to go to family counseling.
    I went to marital counseling a long time ago, without my husband.
    It was the best thing that I could have done and my husband
    and I were able to settle our temporary difficulties quite nicely.
    (We just celebrated our 18th anniversary).
    
    Counseling is a gift that you can give to yourself and your
    child.  The benefits are tremendous.
    
    Good luck,
    Diana

    I can relate to children being afraid of a parent.  My husband, in my
    opinion, over reacts to a lot of things.  Which in and of itself is not
    bad, but he cuts the kids off from sincere reactions, both his and
    theirs.

    One example would be when our then 7 year old daughter fell off her
    scooter and chipped a front tooth.  It was a 2nd tooth.  When my
    husband saw her he was rolling around on the couch wailing about how
    she *had* been so pretty, how could *this* happen, etc.  To me, his
    reaction would have been appropriate if she had landed in intensive
    care, but was way too melodramatic for the actual injury.

    And a more painful example, at least to me, is that when they were in
    day care, one of the teachers approached me one day with concern.  Our
    son had fallen in the playground, and was scrapped and hurt, and he
    would not go to the teacher for help.  One of his friends came and got
    the teacher.  When she came to him and asked why he had not come to her
    himself, our daughter piped up with, "Because then Daddy would have to
    sign an accident report and that would make him mad."

    Another point that the base noter's reply reminded me of was the
    different styles of parenting.  I firmly believe in a "united front." 
    Maybe to an extreme.  When we got married, "my" daughter became "our"
    daughter.  She was seven.  In a lot of ways he imposed his own flavor
    of rules and consequences.  If I disagreed I would wait and speak to
    him later, or try to explain, in a non-blaming way, why I disagreed. 
    But he would just continue doing it his version of "the right way,"
    despite my opinion.  So, I started backing off and letting him make the
    rules - in the interest of peace.  Until the day our daughter asked why
    I didn't parent anymore.  (That wasn't how she worded it, but that's
    how I heard it.)  It was as if she thought I had abandoned her.  So, I
    began voicing and acting on my old set of rules.  And the poor kid was
    left either trying to cope with two sets of rules, or using the
    differences to her advantage.

    I think that kids can cope with different rules ok .... w/ my 2 oldest,
    their dad and I have very different parenting styles, and they do just
    fine knowing what's what.
    
    It's nicer if you can be "united" in your decision making though. 
    There's not much that's more infuriating as a parent, to "pass a
    judgement" on your kid (punishment, scolding, whatever), and then have
    the other parent stand there and argue or tell the kid they don't need
    to.
    
    On the flip side, if it's to the point of damaging the child, then
    something probably DOES need to be done about it.  My first reaction
    is, "maybe he doesn't know!".  You say he has a bad tone of voice. (I'm
    assuming it's a man, for simplicity sake here).  He says you're too
    sensitive.  Maybe he doesn't HEAR what he sounds like.  I know that
    I've been with a couple different men, who would "YELL!", to my ears,
    but to them, they were only talking sternly, or just raised their voice
    a little.  To me they were downright hollering and belittling.  I often
    thought that if I recorded them, then they would see my point.  Maybe
    this approach could help you - leave a recorder running during some
    time when it's more likely to happen, and then some time when you're
    not already fuming at one another, have him LISTEN to how he sounds.  I
    think sometimes people don't realize how bad what they're saying,
    sounds.
    
    As for your son .... maybe you can try to explain that that's just the
    way that "daddy is", and that he's that way to everyone, and you
    understand that it hurts (it hurts you too!), but it doesn't mean you
    CAN'T talk to him.  If you and the other parent talk, and are still
    close, then maybe that can help your son understand that even though
    sometimes dad sounds like a 'monster', he is still very loveable, and
    he really DOESN'T mean to hurt this way.  
    
    And it's funny what a tone of voice CAN do .... as a kid the old "Come
    in here, I want to talk to you!", in 'that' tone of voice, meant you
    were going to be getting a good paddling.  Just a little bit
    ago, here at work, someone said those very words to me, and my feet
    still wanted to run the other way - just a gut reaction.... funny how
    you never forget some things!
    
    You need to try to put it in perspective for the other parent.  Make it
    so that THEY can see what YOU and your child can see so clearly.  Maybe
    remind him how HE felt when his dad put him down .... if you can get
    through.
    
    Good luck!
    
    

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author
by mail, please send your message to me and I will forward it to the anonymous
noter.  Your message will be forwarded with your name attached unless you
request otherwise. 

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

Since before Christmas, my normally pleasant husband has been acting
awful.  He is treating me and the kids very horribly.  He's always been
a little tough on them, especially on our son, but lately he's resorted
to name-calling, which I abhor to the point that it is not allowed in our
house - period, end of sentence.

My husband always has been a little inconsiderate of me and my needs, but
a lot of stuff happened a couple of years ago, which I won't go into here,
where I made some mistakes in how I handled some things.  Because of this,
I can see where his feelings might have changed toward me so that he's 
not as understanding or caring about me.  Part of what went down then is 
certainly my responsibility, and I've done my best to patch things up. 

But over the last month or so, he's just been awful to the kids.  Some
cases in point:

1)  A couple of weeks ago, I overheard him saying to our 3.5 year old,
    "You just can't give you anything nice, can you?"  Now our daughter
    is one of those kids who, frankly, is messy.  She goes through the
    living room and the basement playroom like a tornado, and leaves tons
    of toys, etc., in her wake.  We've had a hard time training her to
    pick up after herself, but slowly it's coming around.  Anyway, when
    my husband said that, I reminded him about the no name-calling rule,
    and he said, "But she's a slob!"  Remember, this kid is 3.5.

2)  Last week, he picked up the kids early and our daughter -- who is
    taking her sweet old time about learning to use the potty -- was
    real excited because "I went in the potty three times today, Daddy!"
    His reply, according to the sitter:  "How many times did you go in
    your pants?"  The sitter told me that our daughter was crushed.  She
    didn't cry or anything, the sitter said, "but all the excitement
    went right out of her."

3)  Yesterday was the final straw.  Our 6.5 year-old son has been very
    excited about hockey, ever since he saw the Disney movie, "The Mighty
    Ducks."  So we gave him a late Christmas/early birthday present of
    hockey skates, a hockey helmet, shin pads, and gloves.  Finally Dad
    and son go ice-skating yesterday afternoon.  Our son trips and falls,
    and won't go back out on to the ice.  My husband claims he pleaded
    with him repeatedly to go back out there, but the little guy (who was
    probably too tired to handle it) wouldn't go back out.  He came home
    in tears, and my husband followed behind, calling him a "crybaby" and
    a "quitter."  He threatened to throw out our son's beloved "Mighty
    Ducks" tape, and said that he had "wasted $100 on hockey equipment."
    
Right or wrong, I told my husband that he was NOT throwing away that tape,
and he was NOT going to call the kid names.  (Meanwhile, our son is
on the bed sobbing his heart out, and our daughter is hiding her face in
my leg.)  I told my husband, "You sound just like my father, and you are
not going to do to my son what my father did to me."

I tried to reassure our son, but it was very hard work.  I tried to explain
that Daddy had been a very talented athlete in his younger days, and that
"sometimes, when you're real good at stuff, it's hard to explain it to
other people because you know it so well."  I don't know if I should have
done this or not, but I was damned if I'd let the kid go through life
thinking he was a failure.

This morning, I talked to my husband again and laid down the law.  I told
him it was up to him to figure out why he was so angry, and about what.
I reminded him that _they are only kids_, and that our son is a good 
student who is popular with teachers and classmates alike...isn't that
enough at age 6??  I also told him that I wanted us to get counseling, because
I believe we need it.  So I don't know where all this is going to lead,
but I'm sure as hell going to need some support over the next several
months.

I was so upset that I fought back tears all the way to work, and I've had
to make a couple of "emergency" ladies' room runs this morning, just to get
my self-control back.  And like I said, I'm used to his occasional snide
remarks about me -- which are probably just teasing, but they sure leave a bad
taste in *my* mouth -- but he's not going to treat the kids that way.

Any support/help/suggestions anyone can make, I'd appreciate it.  I don't
think we're ready for divorce court -- I want him to face up to whatever
it is that's making him so angry.  I want to protect and heal my kids.

    Dear Anon,
    
    Get thee to a counselor, quickly!
    
    I don't know but this sort of behaviour on your husband's part, points
    to a deeper problem than the kids.  It is possible he was raised in an
    environment of this sort, but IMO this is abusive behaviour, and not
    something that needs to be propogated on to another generation.
    
    Outside of asking him in a non-confrontive way, what is really
    bothering him, I don't have any advice.  However, I am sure a good
    counselor would.  He may also need a parenting class just to understand
    the developmental stages the kids are at, so he doesn't expect more
    than he is going to get from them.  Maybe he needs positive
    affirmations when he makes an effort too. I don't know.  I do know when
    frank or I are cranky, having that pointed out by the other, and gentle
    questions sometimes work to get things back under control.  Also know
    that it is ok to apologize to a child, (in fact beyond OK) when you
    blow up as well.
    
    good luck, and you will be in my thoughts.
    
    meg

    Dear Anon,
    
    As far as your son and hockey are concerned... Your husband does not
    sound like an ideal teacher/coach for your son (unless this behavior
    is completely out of character for him).  Not all parents are.
    My father is a wonderful father but was completely unable to
    teach us to drive.  We all eventually learned but not from him.  IMHO, 
    your husband owes your son an apology and should explain to him
    that he was the one at fault...  Maybe he could offer to help him
    find a coach or lessons and be supportive from the sidelines.   
    
    I'm not sure of the extent of the problems that you and your husband
    have had, but I don't think it's ok for him to treat you this way
    either.  Either he has forgiven you or he hasn't.  You need to
    resolve this.  After 2 years, it doesn't sound like it will fix itself.
    
    
    
    
    				Mary
    
    

    Anon,
    
    I think that your real problem is not hockey or messy toys or any of
    that - but that that's just a place to vent.  
    
    I would **STRONGLY** suggest that you get the book "Men are from Mars,
    Women are from Venus" and at least one (and preferably both) of you
    read it. It goes into a lot of detail in regards to communication
    between members of the opposite sex, and why one/both of you may be
    saying things that you INTEND to be completely innocent, but which are
    perceived otherwise by member(s) of the opposite sex.  It's really a 
    GREAT book!
    
    Good luck to you all!!  I agree that counseling sounds like a good
    idea, and I personally, think that you should do whatever it takes to
    protect your children's feelings - even if that sometimes means
    covering for the other parent ....
    
    
    
    

    This does not sound like merely a miscommunication between the sexes. It
    sounds this is indeed an underlying problem that has not gone away. I
    agree with finding a good counselor. My husband and I have never been
    to one but I have heard success stories from friends who have explored
    this route. 
    
    IMO, sometimes spouses do not listen to each other. You can talk and
    vent your feelings but if the other person is not listening and really
    considering what you're saying sometimes it's all for not. I think in
    this case a third party such as a counselor would really help. 
    
    This sounds like a hard time you are going through but it is up to you
    and your husband to work things out, your problems and any problems
    with the kids, for their sake. The kids should not be involved. Except
    I do agree with you explaining things to your son and I do agree that
    your husband owes your son an apology! My parents never apologized for
    anything and that hurt! Children are people too! 
    
    I know it's hard to do but I think that any fighting, snide comments, 
    whatever, between you and your husband should be done when your kids are 
    not around. It hurts their feelings! 
    
    We as parents have an incredible responsibility and we must try to
    create a loving and nurturing environment for our kids. We can't do
    things perfectly. We can only try. 
    
    I think you're right to give it some time and keep talking about it.
    Don't give up for your kids sake and for your sake. You are important
    too! 
    
    I wish you the best of luck in working things out!
    
    Karen
                      

Anon,
     I think you are showing great strength in seeking a solution to this
Problem. It is clear to me that your husbands behaviour is abusive and I can see
why you would find it unacceptable. I would not always have agreed. I've had
success with with counseling and think that it would be good for you both. 
However, you may find it hard to convince hime that there is a problem and that 
he should be part of the solution. I'd suggest you contact EAP or an outside 
counselor and ask for help. I think you might find it helpful to get the support
of a counselor even if your husband does not go immediately.

     You are right to address this issue. I'm glad I was pushed into addressing 
similar issues.

Take care of yourself,
Peter.

    
    I suggested the book because, at the root of almost every conflict, is
    a miscommunication.  People who like/love each other don't
    intentionally hurt each other - but the ones who are hurt feel as
    though it were done intentionally.
    
    I'll probably get blasted from the male readers here but may I also
    add .... I haven't met a guy yet who turned 30 and was anything other
    than TOTALLY MISERABLE about it!  There seems to be a lot of inner
    conflict and asking "Is THIS was I wanted?" "WHAT do I have?" "What DO
    I want?" and "WHY SHOULD I put up with xxx?!"  The worst part, is that
    in the men I've seen suffer through this, not one of them realized,
    until much later, that it was really their age that was causing such
    inner torment.  Is he nearing the big 3-0?  
    
    The anger sounds clearly like an "unresolved conflict" that he's unsure
    how to resolve.  He either needs to accept it or change it or do
    something to be at peace with himself.  THIS is why you need to be able
    to effectively communicate with him.  You may be able to help him get
    to the root of it.  OR, you may be making him even crazier by keep
    asking him.  If HE doesn't know, it will make him feel less competent
    if you somehow keep insisting that he Should know.  He will think you
    think he's a failure.  Which dumped on top of the other stress will
    only make things worse.
    
    Is it really this event from your past that's eating him?  Have you
    taken the time to validate his feelings, and not justify your actions?
    Say, for example, he FEELS that you left him.  But you DIDN'T leave
    him.  It gets you know where to keep going "I didn't!" "But it felt
    that way!" "But I didn't!".  The only way for forgiveness is that you
    have to first acknowlege and validate HIS feelings so that he knows
    he's truly been HEARD.  It doesn't matter WHY anymore.  If that's the
    way he feels, he's entitled to it, and part of requesting his
    forgiveness needs to be allowing him to feel that way, and taking the
    responsibility that something that you've said/done caused him to feel
    that way.  Then apologize for it.
    
    These are the kind of communication techniques that you can learn in a
    number of places (including the book and counseling).  But until you
    can both learn to communicate more effectively, no one will be happy.
    
    I hope for you, and wish you all the best.
    
    Good luck!
    Patty

    Dear Anon:
    
    My husband is afflicted with a runaway tongue and temper, also.  I 
    don't buy into shouting or name calling or ugly threats myself,
    so he and I do differ strongly in our parenting styles.  I was at my
    wit's end with him 18 months ago, ready for a divorce (we had agreed to
    do so!).  Finally, in a desperate move to prevent this, my husband
    agreed, at my behest, to go into counseling.  He went for 5 visits, 
    complained about his job and my mom (who lives with us), learned a 
    little something about "what constitutes child abuse" (including 
    *verbal*), and promptly stopped going when he got a new job.
    
    The net result was that I was left feeling that the counseling was a
    waste, because he didn't talk about what was important to *me*.  He was
    left feeling that I was a b*tch because I felt that way.
    
    Four months ago, things were beginning to get out of hand again.  *I*
    went for counseling this time.  I learned some interesting things about
    myself, ways that I was helping to cause this negative behavior in my
    husband, ways that I could better help myself and my son to deal with
    it.  I am feeling much better about things, and even about my husband
    and his temper problems.  Those problems haven't gone away, but my
    husband has learned something important from watching *me* go through
    my counseling.  He learned that no one can help him unless he tells
    them what is wrong.  He has decided to try counseling again, and do it
    seriously this time.
    
    In my completely biased and uneducated opinion, I think that 9 men out
    of 10 would deny having a problem till their dying day, and rather jump
    off a cliff than agree to go into counseling.  My personal advice,
    start by going yourself.  If you are very lucky, your husband, like
    mine, will follow the leader.
    
    Good luck, and if you want to "chat" off line with someone who has
    been/is there, feel free to contact me.
    
    M.
    

Moderator reminder:

Please be sensitive to *all* people in this conference and not make
disparaging remarks about any group.  Some of the recent comments about
men may be offensive to, or hurt the feelings of, men who are part of
our PARENTING community.

   Thank you.

       Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

>      <<< Note 843.19 by SWAM2::GOLDMAN_MA "Blondes have more Brains!" >>>
>                          -< Go first, he may follow >-

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I think that's one of the best
things about this notesfile...

Until I read your '9 out of 10 men' comment.  That caused me to disregard 
everything else that you just said.  And that's too bad; it sounded like
you may have had some valuable incite to share.

Dan

    re- -1 & -2:  
    
    Point Taken -- I apologize.  Let me rephrase -- many men of my/our
    generation were conditioned at a very young age to perceive 
    counseling as a "wimpy" or "weak" response to any problem or issue. 
    Most were also conditioned to believe that the role of the "father" is
    to be a taskmaster, the iron glove, strong parental figures.  In many
    cases (my husband included, as well as at least *6* of my friends'
    husbands!!), a man may have been conditioned to believe that the stern
    taskmaster role makes his easily triggered or over-reactive temper
    acceptable, when, in fact, it is not.  Many people, regardless of sex,
    do not believe in the concept of verbal abuse, either.  
    
    Sometimes, this "stern taskmaster" image can preclude or cancel out 
    a father's natural nurturing instinct, and I do feel that this is a big
    piece of my husband's probably, and our Anonymous friend seems to have
    a husband who bears a remarkable resemblence in modus operandi, so to
    speak.  
    
    I certainly did not mean to intimate that men are inferior, more
    stubborn or less "aware" of themselves than women.  I simply left out
    my leap in logic regarding early childhood conditioning of male
    children, and how it may result in an adulthood difficulty in admitting
    or perceiving problems or weaknesses in one's self.  
    
    This is why I *feel* (insensitively phrased, I admit) that most
    men would have a hard time just *deciding*, point blank, to go to 
    counseling.  However, if a man sees that the woman in his life does
    *not* perceive counseling as a weakness, and, in fact, believes that
    one must be strong to get up and go, he is more likely to be able to
    begin the process.
    
    Again, I apologize for my insensitive phrasing.  No insult was intended
    to anyone in or outside of this notesfile.
    
    M.

re: .21

I love the irony of "you may have had some valuable incite to share".
What a beautiful slip of the fingers :-)

- Deb B.

    
    I still find it all interesting that the whole context of the
    discussion of therapy is that "women are right", and "what's the matter
    with men for not wanting to go!"?
    
    From a man's perspective (as I've had this explained to me several
    times) "WHAT'S the matter with women that they feel it's necessary to
    air all their dirty laundry to a total stranger!?".  My best analysis is
    that a woman in counseling brings about some feelings of betrayal in
    her S.O., and may also make him feel like he's failing because she has
    to seek support/advice/whatever, outside of the family unit.  Men are
    pretty much taught that to seek advice is almost an admission of
    failure - the One-Up stuff.  It can make a man feel "one-down".  And as
    well, he's taught to be the problem-solver.  It's a direct insult to
    HIM that his wife/S.O. would seek someone else to solve the problems
    they should be able to get through together.  I think in general that
    men are much more private than women are.  Did I touch on any of it, guys??
    
    From a woman's perspective, we're brought up to share all of our
    innermost thoughts with those closest to us, and to willingly seek
    outside advice/opinions.  It's a method of caring, and a method to show
    you care about the Situation as well ("I care enough about us to go to
    counseling - what's wrong with YOU!?")  When the men in our lives
    resist this, women take it as a direct insult, and "proof" that her man
    doesn't care enough to go to counseling.
    
    It all gets back to a basic failure to communicate.  It's very
    difficult, if not impossible, to walk up to someone you're upset with
    and really be able to say what's in your gut, AND have it heard as
    that.  
    
    One quickie from the book;
    
    She says				He Hears
    
    Can you take out the trash?		Are you capable of taking the trash
    					out?
    
    She Means				He thinks she means
    
    Would you take out the trash.	What's the matter with you that you
    					can't take the trash out?!  Are you
    					able to do that much?			
    
    And he doesn't necessarily view "Can you", as a request of "WILL you".
    And there's just as many examples the other way - men make simple
    statements/requests that are taken completely differently than they're
    meant.
    
    Again, I would suggest a good communications book to help work through
    these things, and make life - and talking! - a lot smoother.
    
    It becomes a lot more interesting if you try to view it from "their"
    side, and it also makes it a lot clearer as to how much "you" are
    contributing to the problem, completely unknowingly.
    
    I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone in the above note.  It CERTAINLY was
    not the intention, and is based soley on my experiences, education, 
    and observations ....
    
    Patty

    re: .24:
    
    I wasn't necessarily referring to therapy, which is a very complicated
    and long process, so much as seeing a family counselor.  Therapy tries
    to tell you what's wrong with you.  Counseling helps you clarify your
    own thoughts and feelings about what you may be *doing* wrong in your
    life.  And, in *my* opinion and experience, it can be much more
    effective than reading a book, because it is personalized to *your*
    individual situation.  
    
    Just IMO.
    
    M.
    
    
    M.
    

    
    Sorry - I was using the words therapy and counseling interchangeably,
    meaning (by your definition) "counseling".  I wasn't trying to "attack"
    anyone - just pointing out how "the other side" might view the whole
    thing.  
    
    Counseling can definitely be beneficial to some people.  Probably even
    most people.  But a lot of people are still inclined to shy away from
    it, somehow associating it with a personal failure on their part.  This
    is where (at a minimum) these self-help and communication books can
    help bridge some of the gap.  Not to say they would/should replace
    counseling, but simply to say that it's better than "nothing".
    
    To Anon - how are things going now?  Is it any better??