Conference moira::parenting

    I know how frustrating it can be to have a VERY active son.  My
    son, now 17 months old, is always on the go and sounds a lot like
    your little boy.  Mine will sit in a high chair fine, but eats ONLY
    so he is not hungry anymore (eats very little) and throws the rest on 
    the floor (the dog isn't starving, that's for sure!).  He used to do 
    so well in restaurants when he was "less mobile"... now he just squirms 
    or  tries to stand or whatever he has to do to "GET OUT" (which he has 
    learned to say quite clearly).  He was also a pretty early walker
    (10 months) and VERY strong-willed ... I was like this when I was
    a child... still am ;-)

    I know it's hard to deal with sometimes and it's very frustrating
    and easy to loose your temper, but my husband and I have been doing
    a little "test" of our own.  We found ourselves yelling a lot more
    than we wanted to, and what we found was that our son would just
    "turn it off" and not listen at all, keep right on doing what he was
    not supposed to be doing (liking dumping the dogs food, or sticking
    his hand in the VCR, turning the TV on and off, etc).  We've begun
    to speak more civil to him like "please stop doing that, come play
    with (distraction toy)" - and if he does not stop, we ask if he would 
    like to sit in his playpen for a "timeout"?  Usually right then, he turns
    and walks away from whatever he is doing and shakes his head "no".
    The playpen (which we weren't using for it's intended purpose) has
    made a great timeout spot.  We don't have to hold him still on the
    couch for timeouts (he doesn't sit still), and we let him sit in
    the play pen for 1-2 minutes (NO TOYS) before taking him out.

    Then, we ALWAYS ask him if he is going to be a good boy and not do ...
    [whatever he was doing wrong] anymore, he nods "yes".  And usually
    he doesn't (at least for the rest of that particular day).

    This has been VERY successful for us.  A lot less dumped dog food
    on the floor, and he rarely goes near the TV/VCR much anymore, and
    when he does, a quick "no Mitchell" works fine.

    Do you use timeouts yet?  We didn't know when it was the right time
    to start, but when we began to see that he was really manipulating
    us and disobeying (intentionally) our commands, IT WAS TIME! 
    I don't believe in hitting, but have given Mitch an occasional 
    wrist tap here and there when he was doing something dangerous
    (like turning on the stove burners - needless to say, all the knobs
    are no longer on the stove - we keep ONE on the counter to turn
    the stove on...).

    Well, all the best to you in your dealings with an active, strong-willed
    child.  They are a handful!

    And yes, I do the cookie trick too in the grocery store!  Mostly just
    when going thru the checkout so he's occupied.

    Sorry for rambling - this note is just too familiar to me!

    Hope you can find some type of discipline that works for all of you.

    Julie 

    Sounds kind of like the way my daughter has been behaving
    lately. This does not work in public, but now at
    home if she starts a tantrum, we do not give her 
    any attention, just quickly put her in her room 
    and close the door til she stops. This really works!
    She has pratically stopped. Good book is "Taming
    the Toddler" by an Australian. Funny reading too.
    Carol

    
    
    
    	My sister-in-law had a simlar problem with her boy austin, 
    
    	and she found the timeouts the only thing that worked.
    
    	She also schedule her day to when he was at his best.. 
    
    	Which was okay with her since she was staying at home.. 
    
    	Time out's weren't very long couple of minutes usally sitting in a
    chair or on his bed.
    donna

    I have a very willful 3-year-old, but I have found a few things that
    work.  You have to be _very_ consistent. And when you say 'no' it has
    to stay 'no'. You can't give in later, or he's learning to just keep
    nagging, and he'll get his way.  If you think you won't be able to
    stick to your 'no', try saying things like 'not now', 'not til you're
    better behaved', 'not til you stop whatever' to kind of give you a way
    out. I typically say things like 'we'll see' but that invariably means
    'no'.
    
    I have never cared what people in public have cared. They're not the
    ones who will have to deal with the child later, and it's not like most
    of them haven't had children or heard children crying.  I have been
    known to tell my kids that crying is a perfectly good option and that
    other people knows what crying sounds like, so go ahead and please let
    me know when you're done. And for tantrums, I just tell them tantrums
    don't work, and go in the other room.
    
    At this age, I think you could try putting him in time-out. We used to
    use the porta-crib to confine the kids. And since your son doesn't like
    to be confined, once he learns that time-out means confinement, you may
    be able to start asking him if he wants a time-out or if he can stop
    doing whatever. They learn fast.
    
    

    I definetly like the time-out option.  I hadn't thought of that for a
    15 month old, as I used it for my daughter, but didn't find it
    necessary until she was 2.
    
    I think I'll pull the playpen out of the basement and set it up in
    our spare room and give that a try.  He does HATE to be confined, so
    hopefully he'll learn fairly quickly that his behavior has
    consequences.
    
    I think the suggestion about NO meaning no is so true also.  I'll try
    to practice that as well.
    
    
    Thanks for the suggestions!!!  I feel better now...like...I can deal
    with this.  I'll let you know how it goes.
    
    Elena
    ps. my son trys to turn the knobs on the stove too and just about any
    knob he can get his hands on...isn't it funny how they're all very
    different, but very much alike.

        I'm one of those people who cannot stand to hear a child having
	a tantrum in a store.  If Lauren ever pulls that one on me, I
	intend to leave the store without completing my shopping and take her
	home.  Even now, if I'm doing a major grocery shop or other major
	errands, I leave her at home with daddy.  She does come on shorter
	errands and enjoys them (but she isn't walking yet).

	I can understand some children getting upset at sitting in a 
	shopping cart or chair at a restaurant for a long period of time.
	If your child is having a tantrum because of this confinement,
	you should attempt not to subject him/her to it.   I know this
	is not a good solution if you have no body to leave the child
	with.  

	If your child is having a tantrum because they want candy or 
	some other item, well, I have no suggestions for that one since
	I haven't yet had to deal with it with Lauren.  I'll just
	leave her at home if she can't shop with me peacefully.  I
	just don't have the temperment to put up with it!

	Karen

    the playpen works great until you have one like Atlehi.  She climbs in
    and out of hers.
    
    My best idea for tantrums is to make sure they can't hurt themselves
    and let them finish it.  Of course, I have abandoned shpping carts to
    carry one out and put her in her seat while she regains some semblance
    of control, before continuing the shopping trip.  
    
    meg

    I would just add one thing to think about with the screaming for
    another cracker....remember how tired, hungry, and thirsty they are
    after daycare. I would give him more crackers/juice/something if that's
    what it takes to get home without completely being frazzled (both of
    you). So he doesn't eat a perfect dinner, make sure he gets his veggies
    at lunch type of thing, or some oatmeal before bed....it's such a short
    lived period (well maybe it's a year or two ;^) ) why subject yourself.
    He certainly wont starve. And maybe he'll even be more relaxed and eat
    his dinner....
    
    ...also something that I learned about will-full kids...it dawned on me
    that I was getting so upset because my 2 1/2 year old would want to do
    EVERYTHING himself...like pouring juice, opening refridge, washing own
    hands, and I was getting mad at this...but...it hit me that they are
    teaching all this independence at daycare! and, wanting to be
    independent and do for themselves is not acting "bad"
    
    FWIW!
    
    just a thought from someone with two will-full toddlers.

    To carry .8 a little further, if you're finding that he's screaming for
    another cracker on the way home from daycare, maybe you could switch
    his snack to something that's part of his dinner. Maybe he can just
    have a cracker on the way home, but once you get there he could have
    his veggies while you get everything else ready. I find that my kids
    like to have juice when they first get home, so I leave a half-full
    glass of juice in the fridge, and they go right in and get it when we
    get home. But they don't get anymore because that spoils dinner.
    Instead, I start cutting up the veggies and let them snack on that, and
    I just consider they've already had their veggies by the time we sit
    down. Of course, they can still have the cooked veggies with dinner,
    but if they don't eat much, I know they've already had some dinner
    beforehand.
    
    Likewise with the things the kids want to do themselves.  I decided
    early on that since they wanted to do everything themselves, I'd let
    them. So they get their juice out of the fridge on their own, and I
    keep grape on the lower shelf so they can go in and pick.  But if it's
    food, they have to ask or tell me they've gotten it.  Since they wanted
    to carry their own plates, I let them clear them off the table every
    night [and just go back and wash up what's spilled on the floor on the
    way to the sink].
    
    I think you can make some adjustments around his behavior without
    having to give in completely and make both of you happier.  And there
    was a time when my twins were around 2ish that we just stopped going
    out to eat because they just couldn't wait that long to get dinner, but
    once they learned to wait a little and take some time for coloring or
    whatever, we started going out again. Couldn't have been more than a
    few months or so. And the more we go out, the better they seem to get. 
    But there have been one or two times that one of us has had to leave
    the restaurant with an unruly child while the other parent and child
    finish dinner.  It only takes once or twice of that before they learn.
    
    It does get easier.

some thoughts:

>   The only way I get thru the grocery store these days is to feed him 
>   cookies throughout the store (I used to hate it when I saw other 
>   people do that).

What is it that you hate about this?  (Your feelings are perfectly valid,
of course, but my suggestions might change if I understood what it was
that you objected to.)

thoughts/suggestions:
 
He hates being confined.  Grocery shopping requires that he be confined.
Can you leave him at home?  If he must go with you, then what can you do
to help him survive the hated confinement?  Can you leash a toy or two
to the shopping cart?  Can you coincide shopping with snack time so that
you don't mind that he's drinking juice and eating crackers?  If it's
the junk food aspect that bothers, could you switch to peanut butter 
crackers or healthier snacks that are age-appropriate?      

>    He is very independant and likes to feed himself, but once finished
>    eating he throws his food and dumps his milk all over the floor.

Can you ration his food a little at a time such that there's never much on
his plate?  This way, when he's finished he'll have less to dump.  This 
doesn't exactly solve the problem, but it might make cleanup a little easier.
Does he use a cup with a sippy lid?  Maybe I'm babying my daughter, but she
still uses the sippy lid just because I don't want to deal with the
inevitable spills that would occur.

    I guess 'hate' is a strong word regarding the issue of feeding a
    child in the grocery store, but I feel that I am in the store as a
    customer to purchase the food and that my children shouldn't be
    eating it as we go along, after all its not paid for, and I feel
    uncomfortable getting to the register with a couple of opened packages,
    with food spilling out.
    
    My husband works 12-13 hour days and hasn't been available to stay
    at home with the kids while I shop, but I have been discussing this
    issue with him and we have agreed that I just might go shopping some
    night during the week even if its at 8:30 at night.
    
    Rationing is a good idea.  I'll just have to keep monitoring his plate
    to see when he needs more, but it will make the cleanup easier, except
    for when he's eating yogurt and applesauce, which he eats frequently, 
    they end up all over the kitchen wall, floor and his high chair.
    
    He uses a tippy cup(cup with lid) and also drinks well from a straw.
    
    Elena

    Elena,  
    
    My store provides cookies for free for kids to void the open container
    problem.  It also makes points with me when I have a hungry munchkin
    (or three) shopping with me.
    
    meg

I learned to get over the embarassment.   I just handed the wrapper (for 
us, it was fruit roll-ups)  to the cashier.  I don't ever remember a cashier 
batting an eyelash, so I assume it happens often.

Clay

	I don't mind the open packages.  I usually open something like
	cheerios or animal crackers, which have recloseable tops.

	Emily likes to snack on blueberries or strawberries (fruits
	that don't get weighed at checkout) or turkey breast after
	we've gone past the deli.

	I try to make grocery shopping fun, singing and talking and 
	playing with Emily while I shop.  Leaving the kids at home
	isn't really feasible with our schedules.  It was tough when
	Andrew was a newborn, as Emily couldn't sit in the carriage
	(and was "active" to say the least when loose in the store!).
	Now Andrew goes in the backpack, so I'm safe for now!

	My sister's boy was/is much like your's...he's 3 now and
	getting a little better, but he has kept her hopping (and
	inquiring to the pedi as to his "normalcy" ;-)  ).

	Karen

    Karen - 

    I agree with your point about leaving the child home.  I only bring
    my son when I absolutely do not have another option (hubby isn't 
    home).  I find if I shop when he is not tired or hungry he does 
    much better.  I think the mobility issue DOES change things 
    considerably!  My son used to be such a DREAM (truly) in restaurants
    and stores. Now he can't stand to shop in the mall (unless I let him 
    walk, and when you do this you don't get much "shopping" done at all).

    I also agree with removing the child if he/she is having a tantrum
    or fit.  I think the worst thing to do is to "give in" if it's because
    he/she can't get their way, cause then you set a precedence for this
    behavior anytime you're out - they know they can get away with it.  By 
    leaving with the child, and reprimanding in the car, you avoid annoying 
    others.  I get annoyed by kids throwing tantrums.. it's hard to ignore.
    IMO, I think it's rather rude to let your kid kick and scream and
    shout when it's in public and others don't "choose" to be exposed to 
    that.  Fortunately, my son hasn't had a tantrum in the grocery store YET, 
    but I do try to keep him occupied with something (toy or crackers/juice) to 
    avoid such a scene (when I do have to bring him)... call it bribery,
    but it WORKS! When I don't have him with me, I use my trip to the 
    grocery store as my little escape.  Never thought I'd like the market so 
    much!  I actually take my time now... I remember my pre-mommy days when 
    I was always in such a hurry to get home! ;-)

    It's amazing how quickly children go through phases... hopefully 
    they will all go thru this one quickly!!!

    Julie	 

    Go without them if you can
    Take them with you when they're RESTED and FED
    If they're tired and hungry, make it a short trip: *only* the bare
      essentials
    If they pitch a fit, leave the shopping cart and take your pocketbook
      and the kid(s) to the car.  Wait it out or go home.
    If you *must* feed them store food, BUY it first (express lane) and
      hold the receipt in full view!
    
    Leslie 

    Not sure if this would work, but since you seem to be 'stuck' having to
    take him shopping, you could try;
    
    Getting one of those wrist-straps, that ties you and the child
    together.  Either put the other end on you or on the cart.  He may be
    happy to just be able to jump up and down while you're selecting the
    groceries (OR, he may be content to dump everything off the shelves-
    you'll have to decide that one (-;). 
    
    The other thing I used to do (but I think they were older than yours),
    was to sit them in the BACK of the cart.  I'd save the seat for food
    that I didn't want them playing with, and stack the rest of the stuff
    in the back with them.  They'd stack it up, knock it over, check it
    out, chew on it a bit, but it was all new and interesting, and did a
    lot to keep their boredom to a minimum.  Of course by the end of the
    shopping trip, it was a little crowded, and they'd have to get out and
    walk a little, but it wasn't TOO bad.
    
    As for snacking while shopping - I've always done it.  Never anything
    that needs to be weighed, but open a box of crackers or drink or
    whatever.  I've never had ANYONE at the register even look oddly at me,
    so I'm sure they're used to it.  One time they each had a small bag of
    chips, and Jason ended up throwing out his wrapper when he was done.  I
    told the cashier to ring in 2 of Chris' because we lost the other
    wrapper.  She just did, without a peep.  
    
    Lots of stores pass out cookies in the bakery dept.  And a lot of times
    at the deli they'll give a slice of cheese.  When I get deli meats,
    I'll often ask them (after it's all weighed/priced) to leave out a
    slice, before they seal it up.  Then the kid(s) can have a slice of
    deli meat or cheese while I shop.  
    
    And one time when there was *NO* time to do anything, I swung into
    McDonald's, got them each a happy meal, rushed over to the supermarket,
    stuck them and the happy meals in the cart, they ate dinner, I shopped,
    and no one said a word or batted an eyelash.  *I* felt guilty they had
    to eat 'on the run' like that, but the kids thought it was neat. (-:
    
    When Jason was about 3-4, and learning letters, he'd sit in the seat. 
    As I pulled something off the shelf, I'd give it to him and ask him to
    find all the letter "A's" (or whatever) on the package.  Or count how
    many people on the box or whatever.  Or even ask him what was inside -
    he seemed to enjoy it, and it's certainly a distraction.  In the
    supermarket anyway, I think you're really fighting 'boredom', and not
    necessarily 'bad behavior', so do what you think might keep your son
    interested.
    
    As for tossing food - Jonathan does that now (1 yr) when he's done. 
    He'll pick it up, wait till I'm looking, wait till I say No! then gives
    me a HUGE grin, and tosses it over the edge!  He gets quite upset if I
    take it away, but that's the way it goes.  He does have a few subtle
    motions that if I'm watching him closely, I get the idea that he's
    about done anyway.  And he's starting to communicate a little, so I
    frequently ask if he's all done, and he'll just stare at me.  When he
    starts shaking his head "No", then he's done (he has it backwards, but
    it works anyway (-;).  Maybe you can start making a big deal saying
    "All Done!" when you're cleaning up his stuff - if he's articulate
    enough, he may start repeating you, hopefully with a little 'warning'.
    
    OR, if you always gave him the same 'toy' after he's done, he could
    learn to ask for that toy as a means of signalling he's done (before he
    tosses the food).  I just can't IMAGINE letting a kid alone with yogurt
    and the likes!  I don't think I'd tolerate that being splattered, very
    well! (-:  You've got more patience than me .... our 'messy' food is
    peanut butter and jelly, and most of the mess stays on him.
    
    Good Luck!
    

    if you have a munchkin like mine, bag the wrist straps, she can undo
    them.  they are made for peaceful children in crowd situations.  I have
    a full-scale harness and leash for Atlehi (used it on my other two
    also)  Since it zips up the  back, my little houdini can't reach it
    yet, and a wrist strap would risk dislocating her arm or mine when she
    tosses a snit.
    
    meg

        As far as tossing food on the floor, why not just put food
	directly on the highchair tray instead of giving the child
	a plate.  Lauren started eating table food at 8 months and
	I never bothered with a plate since I knew it would be on the
	floor immediately.  She was/is too young to understand plates
	and would just pick the plate up to chew on.  She still drops 
	pieces of food on the floor but not a whole plate!  Usually,
	food dropping means she is done eating but sometimes she just
	does it because she has a full mouth and has to put it somewhere.

	If you do put the food on the tray, make sure you wash it
	carefully with soap and water, not just sponge it off (like
	my husband tends to do).  

	Karen

    
    Another that you can do is buy the child a little grocery cart that
    they can push around in the store.  I go to one market that supplies
    the carts.  It's quite funny and they have a ball.  When I go to a 
    store that doesn't have the carts, I also open crackers and open up
    the sippy package.  No one has ever looked at me funny nor has the 
    cashiers ever made a remark, except for "would you like me to throw
    that away for you".  Too me it's worth it if you get to do your
    shopping in peace.
    
    deb
    

    My youngest son was/is very much like that (he is now 25 months).
    
    Eating..it gets better as they get older. He doesn't throw the food on
    the floor any more. 
    
    We have a 40 minute commute home from daycare everyday so I always have
    crackers and juice in the car for the boys. It really ties them over
    until dinner. The youngest, eats the most crackers also eats the most
    dinner so I don't really worry about it.
    
    Taking him to stores has always been a problem. He likes to run up and
    down the aisles. 8 out of 10 times he screams in a store and I have to
    deal with stares and comments. I don't have the luxury of leaving the
    boys home with Dad except maybe on the weekends.  Our store offers free
    cookies and cheese at the deli so that helps to keep him occupied.
    
    Yes sometimes he can be very trying but he is such a great kid.

    You folks are certainly braver than I am.  I can't imagine going
    shopping with my twins and letting them walk around.  I always put them
    in the carriage, though I do get two carriages so they each have their
    own seat and I still have a place for groceries. I don't always strap
    them in, but the rule is that if they attempt to get up out of the seat
    once, they get strapped in, and I don't care how much crying and
    complaining they do, and they know it.  Consequently, it only took a
    few times of having them buckled in before they figured out they have
    to stay sitting.
    
    And we always make the cookie stop first even though it's on the other
    side of the store. That keeps them occupied.  Plus, now that they're
    older [ 3 1/2], they like to make a train where I pull one carriage
    from the back, and that child holds onto the other carriage and pulls
    it. Then we switch back and forth so everyone gets a turn.  It takes a
    little longer, but they like it.
    
    I can't imagine going grocery shopping without the kids. They love it,
    and if we do it on the weekend, my husband will come, too.
    
    

    Our 1st daughter went thru the food throwing stage too, we weren't ever
    sure if it was a message of 'I'm done', or 'I want to get down' or 'I
    want attention'. Usually it was #2 and #3 combined. We generally
    thought that it was not that she was full...never was a good eater, she 
    just had better things to do!)
    
    The way we stopped it was to take the food away and turn her high chair 
    to the wall for a minute (mini-time out, in place).We would tell her
    throwing food was NOT O.K. We would return the food to her ONCE, after 
    she was calm. If she threw it again, she'd get the mini-timeout as well. 
    But she wouldn't get any food back and she was told that she was 'ALL
    DONE' and removed from the chair shortly thereafter.  
    
    Boy was she mad at first that she couldn't be part of the action by
    being part of our meal, and she couldn't run off to do other things
    either.
    
    By the way, this suggestion came from another noter who had a similar 1st
    born child! Took about 1 week for us to break the habit. Returned only one
    about 5 mo. later; Only took 1 or 2 times to stop it that time. 
    Consistency is the key! Nice part about this technique is that it works
    anywhere you're eating home, Grandma's , restaurant,...maybe it will
    work for you, too.