Conference moira::parenting

    The folks at QUOKKA::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS can probably offer you a lot
    of help.  One thing I've noticed in there is that if they have one
    message to give, it's "Document, document, document!"  Keep a journal
    of everything the former spouse says/does with regard to the issue in
    question (custody/visitation).
    
    Leslie

Thanks, Leslie!  I wasn't even aware that file existed!

Laura

    A friend of mine got divorced, and had 2 daughters.  She had custody,
    and he was supposed to have 'reasonable visitation'.  She moved out of
    state, and he decreased his support considerably, on the basis of, he
    no longer CAN have reasonable visitation.
    
    According to the lawyers I've heard from, visitation and child support
    are NOT linked together, and neither should be withheld because the
    other isn't (meaning, if you don't pay me, I can't refuse to let you
    see your child).  
    
    

    If he has court ordered visitation and is paying child support then he
    can file a motion to re-negotiate both visitation and support.
    
    1) The Custodial parent must get permission to leave the state (the
    courts don't do much about this unless you make it an issue).
    Technically because there's an existing visitation and support agreement
    moving out-of-state requires judicial review and approval. If the CP
    does leave without due process contempt charges could be levied against
    the CP. 
    
    2) The child is under the jurisdiction of the resident state ( After 6
    months ) and the child support is defined by the resident state laws.
    So, yes, you can file for modification of CS and visitation. And the
    courts must now consider the additional costs to the ncp for
    maintaining a relationship with the child. But I suggest an in-depth
    study of Fla's laws pertaining to your situation and make decisions
    according to the result of your research. People here and in the NCP
    conference are real good at dissecting what you find and giving
    valuable feedback.
    						Dan D (not an expert but
    have been through a lotta crap!)
      

    I Need help in understanding what my rights are and what my X's right's
    are. 
    Here goes....
    
    As it stands right now, I have full custody of my 2 daughter's my x has
    no visitation set up with Any court, or me. He owes me back child
    support and *Had* set up with his aunt to see the girls every other
    week. I have a reastring order againest him which has No experation
    date on it, It has been in afect for 2 years now.  so 1st for him to
    even see the girls at his aunt's is a violation.
     
    I'm moving out of state in Mid January (NewYork) What do I have to do
    If anything as far as his right's? He dose not see alot of the girls
    now, but I know he'll freak and pull me into court. I dont want to
    travel back and forth to boston/Newyork for this. What are My right's?
    Do I have to go to court and say "Hey I'm moving out of state" 
    How do I carry the child support over to another state? I know he needs
    to go to court to "modifie"  the order but He will not and i'm afraid
    when i go back to court in Early January and he knows i'm moving he
    might somehow Put a stop on me moving? Can he do that??
    
    Thanks for any help,
    Al 
     
    

    see a lawyer.  this is one of those times when you can't afford not to.  
    different states have different rules, and the custodial agreement may
    or may not have more implied onvisitation.  Also distances moved can
    have impact as to whether you need to go back to court or not.  
    
    meg

Al, this sounds important enough to see a lawyer about.  Any information
you would get in this file would be with the best of knowledge and best
of intentions, but if you want to make *sure* it's accurate, you should
see a lawyer.

     Carol

    As everyone else indicates, I'd also suggest a lawyer.  Do you have a
    legal custody agreement?  If so, that may/should indicate any other
    restrictions.
    
    One thing to be careful of, if you do go, I believe that your current
    restraining order is not valid out of state, and you would need to
    refile once you moved.  
    
    And if you REALLY want to get nasty about it, if you know that he's
    seeing the children now, and the restraining order is in effect, you
    can call and have him arrested (just keep in mind the impact on your
    children).  On the flip side, if you haven't been enforcing the
    restraining order, then he may have a better case that it's
    "unnecessary".
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty
    
    p.s. you may try the NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS notesfile - it's the flip
    side, but sure has lots of stories, and plenty of stories about
    crossing state lines....

    Hi,
    
    1st: I do Have a lawyer, He told me to "Just move" which I dont feel
    right about doing. they are his children also, My big thing is I dont
    want to Pull the girls away from Him. Ie: Make me the BAD parent for
    moving.
    
    2nd: There is NO legal Agreement of custody. I have SOLE custody of
    them. He had "Supervised visit's" which was Court order. 
    I am dealing with a very Twisted mind! 
    
    My restraining order IS a part of my Divorce agrement. it's PEREMENT
    and as far as I know It goes where ever I move all I have to do is give
    the police Dept a copy of it. If I have to re-file then I will as soon
    as Move. 
    
    I've sent a note to the other notes file There was a topic just on
    Moving to NY and what the child support laws are. But it's really not
    much help. I need to know what right's I have and What he has for
    right's as far as having NO joint custody or even no visitation set up.
      
    Anyone else want to take a shot at it?? 
    thanks!
    
    Al 
    
    

Get another lawyer, one who is willing to research all of your questions.
That lawyer should either be familiar with NY law, or should be able and
willing to call a NY lawyer for the information.

Do make sure to check on both the validity and enforcability of the 
restraining order in NY.  Even if the restraining order is valid in NY,
the average NY cop may not know that.  This means if you ever *have* to
call a cop, you may not get the immediate help you need.  Either get a new
restraining order, or get another paper that says that NY cops have to
enforce the restraining order you have.  Keep copies of both the restraining
order and the other paper with you at *all* times.  One in a car glovebox
and one in your purse are good starting places.

     Carol

    If there is no restriction in your divorce agreement about moving,
    and you have sole custody, and he has no visitation rights, I
    think your lawyer's advice to just move is entirely legal and permissable.
    I'd do it if I were in your shoes.  Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and
    can't give legal advice, so this is just my opinion, but it doesn't 
    sound like your ex would have any legal grounds on which to charge you
    with anything for moving.

    But I'd make sure the local authorities were well aware of the restraining
    order in the new place.

    Leslie

    Notes collision - Carol wrote her note a little faster though, and 
    I just wanted to add that I agree with what she said and will 
    certainly give you more certainty and information to know what you're
    really dealing with.

    Leslie

Or call some family advocate group to get a reading on 
New Yorks laws?  

    
    Thanks for all the reply's so far....
    I spoke with the court house this morning. I was told I have to file a 
    motion to move the kids out of state even with how the order reads.
    He would/could turn around and file for custody saying I kidnapped the
    kids. Also He Has the right to know where i'm moving which does not
    mean he can have a adress but to know which state I am living in with
    the girls. 
    
    I'll get in touch with a lawyer in NY and find out how it works. 
    Or i'll call the police in the town i'm moving to and hear what they
    have to say..
    
    Thanks Again,
    Al  

Mod, I don't know if this is the best location to put this, so feel free to
    move it if you find a more appropriate location......
    
I am trying to find out if this situation is unique or if it is typical....

My boyfriend (who is in the process of a divorce) has recently begun visitation
with his 3 year old son away from the home.  His ex tells him that on the days 
of visitation (Mon, Wed and Sat) his son says that he hates his father and does
not want to go on the visit.  

When my boyfriend arrives his son ALWAYS runs to him and gives him a hug and a
kiss and climbs in the car with absolutely no hesitation.  When it is time for
him to return home, he doesn't want to and when my boyfriend pulls onto his
street you can see a change come over him.  So we know he enjoys being with his
Dad.  So we were just writing off the mothers statements as resentment (she is 
not happy about letting my boyfriend take the child from the house).

Last night his son made a comment after he was in the car for about five 
minutes "I don't like my daddy". (His tone of voice was a casual one, the same
tone you would get if he were telling you about his going to the store with 
grandm) a We asked him what he said and he said "I like my daddy".  So we asked
him if he was mad at daddy and he said no and then asked his dad if he were 
mad at mommy.  My boyfriend replied that he was not mad at mommy, then his son 
asked if mommy was made at daddy and my boyfriend replied that she was not.  My
boyfriend then asked if something was bothering him and he said no, and then 
wanted to know what we were going to do for the visit.

My boyfriend has talked with his ex and she insist that she is always careful
to make sure she says nothing negative about him in the presence of his son and
that the times they have argued over the phone he has not been around.  So we
do not know where this is coming from.  Is this typical for a child who's 
parents are going through a divorce?  Is he just over hearing conversations and
bringing up bits and pieces or do you think that it's something more and we
should seriously consider some professional help?

Thanks for any information you might be able to share.....

Roberta

    Ah Roberta....it just never ends, does it?!!!
    
    				cj *->

	I cannot offer any information regarding children in your
	situation, but I can tell you that my 3 year old holds many
	similar conversations with me.

	Emily: I don't like Spencer.
	
	Me: You don't ?  Why don't you like Spencer.

	Emily: I like Spencer, he's my friend.

	huh ?

We aren't in a divorce/custody situation, but my 3-year-old
also exhibits similar behavior:  she's told us that she doesn't 
like her father, doesn't like school, doesn't like her nanny.  

In fact, one day the nanny was a little shaken because Noelle 
was so insistent that she didn't like her (for that one day).  
The nanny kept asking her if she was angry and
all Noelle would say was that she was going to talk to her
mommy and daddy about it.  We probed gently, but got nothing.

There's also a recent note in here about a parent whose 3-year-old
child told the daycare provider that the mother had hit her with
something.  And the mother hadn't.    

It makes it very difficult to try to separate reality from fantasy.

- Deb B.

    I also have a 3-year-old that often says he doesn't like Daddy,
    school, his favorite baby-sitter, etc.  None of these are true.
    Often times I think he's just testing to see what kind of a
    reaction he'll get.
    
    Could it be that he's a little unsure of things because he's still
    getting used to the visitation routine?
    
    Good luck.  I know it can really begin to hurt feelings if the
    child is persistant about it.
    
    Gail

    This is off the custody and visitation topic, so please excuse my
    continuation of the rathole, but....

    Along the lines of communicating with a three year old - that's about
    the age that my oldest daughter came home from her first day of day
    care and announced that she had gone swimming in the potty.  When I
    asked the day care people about it I got the adult view of what had
    happened.  When she sat on the toilet she didn't check to see if the
    seat was down, so the tumbled in.

    
    It sounds to me like "typical 3yr old" ...which tends to involve saying
    a LOT of things to "test" for reactions.  They're trying to learn how
    to "fit" into the world, what's acceptable, what's not, and base a TON
    of that on your reaction to them.
    
    The only other thing I could think, may be if he was feeling unsure
    about what happened between his mom and dad.  Let's say it was
    explained like this;
    
    Daddy moved out because mommy and daddy don't like each other anymore.
    So now Mommy and Daddy 'never' see each other, and are separate and
    "alone".
    
    Maybe the little boy is afraid that if someone doesn't like HIM, or he
    doesn't like someone, they will leave.  Maybe he's frightened that if
    daddy gets mad at him, he won't like him, and thus leave him.  Maybe
    he's afraid of that happening with Mommy.  Or worse - with each of them
    at the same time!  Abandonment is said to be a very real fear of young
    children going through a divorce.  "Mommy did something to make him
    leave, what if *I* do something too?!?"
    
    He may also be frightened too much to be able to express anger or
    disappointment in the breakup of his family, for fear of being
    abandoned.
    
    Make sure that your boyfriend is *VERY* available to his son.  Try to
    teach the boy how to call daddy on the phone, give him the phone
    number, and make sure that Daddy calls sometimes just to see how his
    day went.  
    
    And the "anger" of not wanting to go .... the boy has to, most of the
    time, pretend that he doesn't care too much about whether or not
    Daddy's around, because he's usually not around.  Then when visitation
    comes about, he has to be able to let go with all of his emotions and
    feel close to him again.  This can be very tiring.  3 may be TOO young
    to be too aware of all of this, but if the child is starting to
    associate Daddy's "coming" with Daddy's "leaving", then in his eyes, it
    may be simpler if daddy never came to visit - at least that's
    consistent for him.  
    
    It may be worth trying to talk to the boy and explain that it's okay to
    be mad at daddy, and that mommy and daddy will love him very much, no
    matter what.
    
    Or, he may very well, just be being three years old ....

    The father would LOVE to call his son every night to say goodnight and
    just to touch base, but the mother will NOT allow it.  The father is
    ALLOWED to call one day a week and leave a message on the answering
    machine to tell his son he loves him. The mother said that one day a
    week is more than enough, any more than that she will consider
    harrassment.
    
    Roberta

Yep. Sounds normal to me too.

It just sounds like a three year old making sense of the world.

Also hand overs are very emotional times. I've been in a similar situation
twice.

The first was seing my step-son coming back from visitation. In that case it
was long but speradic visits. It was always hard for him to adjust. I remember
once he came back a day early and really got upset about it. He must have been
about five or six then.

So when I was seperated I got similar uneasiness from my daughter. It was a
hard time then. She was about seven then and I got her nearly every weekend for
a sleepover. She had a lot of stuff she was sorting out.

I think Patty's advice is good - to stress that Mom and Dad will love him
whatever.

Rowena was older and could sort stuff out by talking to teachers and to friends
in similar situations. A three year old doesn't get so many options. 

One thing I found was talking to Rowena's mother helped. She got a lot of the
same behaviour as I got. I think handover is hard because what most kids want
is for Mom and Dad to stay together.

Good luck,
Peter.

    It  also sounds pretty typical three to me, even when there are no
    handovers and visitation.  The message that no matter what you still
    like him are the best thing you can do.  I don't have a Spock, or any
    other book in the office, but I seem to remember the "I hate you"
    phase comes in somewhere around three and departs for the wild "I can
    do anything" phase sometime around 4-4 1/2.  
    
    Of course maybe my kids learned this at Daycare as a lot of handoffs
    hapened on Fridays and Mondays at Lorraines.  
    
    meg

    
    A thought on the phone calls .... perhaps suggest Mom install RingMate
    on her phone (Dad can pay the $3.00/mo), and have a separate number for
    his son.  Then if they're not home, they don't answer it.  If they ARE
    home, his son can answer the phone, or mom can ignore it - either way
    she'd never even have to speak to Dad.  An answering machine can still
    pick up the call (either line) if they're not home.
    
    I wonder when these types of Moms realize that all they're doing is
    hurting their child  )-:    My boyfriend's ex- is the same way.... (and
    3 yrs later, she hasn't figured it out yet!!)
    
    There's a book called "Divorce Without Victims" that deals specifically
    with helping children through that you may find helpful.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    The mother feels that since the child is only 3, he is too young to
    talk on the phone, although she always stresses to the child that he
    can call her when he is visiting with dad.
    
    Roberta

    excuse me for being dense, but ...
    
    If a 3yr old is "too young to talk on the phone" what does this woman
    think that he will get out of listening to an answering machine?
    
    I know, I know. I'm having a 'logic attack.'
    
    Anyway, if the mother feels that the 3yr old is capable deriving
    nurture from his Dad's taped voice, perhaps an investment in one of
    those little person's tape players would be beneficial.
    
    Dad can tape stuff -- a sort of verbal journal of what he wants to say
    -- during the week and then the little guy can play the tape all the
    next week until it's worn out. They could even tape things together --
    I don't know, singing a song or saying a rhyme or something -- when
    they are together. His mother wouldn't have to listen to it and feel
    harrassed.
    
    I don't think it's ideal, but I'm brainstorming.
    
      Annie

    For Valentine's Day, I got him a bear that when you squeeze him the
    recorded message would play.  It was my boyfriends voice, saying, hi to
    him and telling him he loved him and to be a good boy.  My boyfriend
    said he would squeeze it constantly, probably drove the mother crazy
    :*)!!!
    
    We are taping messages and his own voice when he is with us on Sat. 
    But I like the idea of dad taping him messages all week long and then
    he can take it with him and play in all week long on his own player.
    
    Keep the thoughts and ideas coming....
    
    Thanks,
    Roberta

    
    Talk about "harassment" .... if Mom doesn't want Dad to call more than
    once/week, how do you think she's going to feel about listening to a
    tape of dad (and maybe dad's girlfriend, or girlfriend's name) all week
    long??  THAT would make me batty if I were that Mom already feeling
    'harassed'!!  (Go for it!!).
    
    Be careful with something like that that Mom doesn't get SOOoooo
    uptight about it that she takes it away from the boy, and it ends up
    causing the boy more heartache than anything.
    
    When I took a 2wk trip to Albuquerque for work, Chris was ~2.5.  I
    mailed back a cassette of me talking to him, and telling him what I
    saw, and singing kid songs and that sort of stuff - just sort of
    "playing" with him like I was there.  Two years later he was STILL
    playing the tape!!
    

    Regarding a couple back about what will happen to the child and moms
    relationship a few years from now...My husbands girls left mom after
    about 1.5 years after the divorce.  The girls were older (14,16) at
    the time (they moved in with us).  But, they still can't be with mom 
    for more than a few hours. Mom can't be civil and the girls don't want
    to hear it.  It's a shame that mom can't just grow up,,,my husbands 
    12 year old son lives with mom - the phone book has dad's number 
    listed beside a*shole. 
    
    Unreal!

    Okay, another question....how do you handle visitations and a sick
    child?
    
    My personal belief is that if it is a midweek visit I tell my ex that
    one or both of the girls are not feeling well and we try to reschedule
    for the next night (thurs. vs wed), if it is a weekend visit, they go
    to their dad's no matter what.  After all he is a parent and should be
    able to care for them as well as me.
    
    My BF's ex has a totally different view, if their child is sick, he is
    to stay home with her and that's it, no discussion.  My BF and I are
    not really agreeing on this, although he wholehearted thought it was
    okay when my oldest had chicken pox and it was her dad's weekend, when
    his son came down with chicken pox, his x refused to let the child out
    of the house even though both my kids have had it.  He said that's her
    choice and their is nothing he can do.  Are all the cards in her favor? 
    Does anyone have any words of wisdom for us?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Roberta

    Hi Roberta!
    
    Well, we're on opposite sides this time (again?) my friend.  I
    don't like Angeline to have to go anywhere when she's sick.  When
    I feel lousy, I don't want to leave my home.  Why should she?
    There are days when she may be too sick to go too daycare (contagious)
    but I have to come to work.  I wind up having to leave her at my
    best friend's house.  I hate it for two reasons: 1. I want to nurse
    my sick child, 2. I hate to make her go out of her own home and
    familiar surroundings.
    
    							cj

    I guess I should be a little more specific.....I am not talking about
    dragging a kid out when they don't want to move and have a tempature of
    103.  I am talking about croup, chicken pox, colds, etc.  Where the
    child definetly has something, but it is not contagious or making the
    child miserable.  
    
    Roberta

> He said that's her
> choice and their is nothing he can do.  Are all the cards in her favor? 
> Does anyone have any words of wisdom for us?
  
    If it were my time, I'd be there to pick him up, just as always.
    Like you say, for a weekend-long visit, no question about it.  If
    she refuses, just treat it as any other unjustified refusal (which
    might indeed mean you can do nothing, but note it just the same).
    If he hasn't tried just showing up as usual, proving that he's 
    just as sincere and serious about spending time and caring for his
    child when mildly ill as when the child is able to partake of more
    "fun" activity, then he might be surprised with the result.  
    
    Glenn W.