Conference moira::parenting

    First let me say that I think it's wonderful that you've taken Joe into
    your home.
    
    Second, I don't have any recent experience with 13 yr olds (my
    daughter's only 2), however, here are my thoughts on the situation.
    
    - Sounds like Joe has been bounced around a bit and needs STABILITY.
      He probably hasn't had an environment that makes him take
      responsibility for his actions or received as much love and care as
      he needs.  I think it's going to take longer than 4 months to get him
      to come around.
    
    - Threatening him with going to another home is not going to do any
      good.  Why should he do any better if he feels like you don't care
      enough to put the commitment to the test and are just going to dump
      him on someone else.  What would you do if he really was your 
      biological 13 yr old and he acted like this, tell him to leave?
    
    - Have you met with his teachers yet to discuss his assignments and
      what his obligations are?  Make it between the teacher, you and Joe.
      Why not let the teacher know the situation and set up weekly progress
      reports?
    
    - Reward positive behavior!  If he does something that he's supposed to
      let him know how proud and happy you are.  Every couple of weeks why
      not serve his favorite dessert and let him know it's because he did
      x, y, and z.  Making him feel good about the things he is doing is
      very important.
    
    - Have you considered counseling for all of you, doesn't the state offer
      that for foster families?  
    
    The very best of luck to you, it may be a rocky road but the results
    will be most gratifying.
    
    Susan  

    Given this child's history, I'm not surprised at his behavior.  Are you
    all in family counseling?  I would think he should be in individual
    counseling also.
    
    My oldest is 10 1/2 so I can't relate directly to your problems but my
    kids can easily drive me up the wall and they've been raised in a
    loving, stable home.  Think what this child has been through in his
    short life coupled with his age.
    
    Four months is really a very short amount of time for a child to adjust
    to a new situation under the best of circumstances.
    
    

Desirable as counseling may be, Joe may balk at it.  We were in a somewhat
similar situation, and counseling did more harm than good because the child
didn't want it.  It might pay for you and your husband to get counseling
without Joe so you know what to expect and how to react.

    
       Hi and good luck!
    
       One thing that hit me is that you say that he acts like a two year
    old and was abandoned at 2 years of age. This hit me mainly is because
    I've been in ACOA recovery (and others for a few years). Acoa stands
    for Adult Children of Alcoholics but it can stand for Adult Children
    from dysfuntional families. Doesn't neccessarily have to be alcoholism
    in the family to be an adult child.
    
       I was wondering if there's a possible chance that maybe the child
    stop a lot of his emotional growth at that point. He was abused by
    the adoptive mother (starting at age 2?). This is just my point of
    view , I'm certainly no expert. But, I've learned through recovery
    that this has a lot to do with why adults can't function at an adult
    level, nurturing stopped for them at important times in their life.
    
       I would definately say that the child needs counseling and maybe
    if you and your husband aren't in couseling seek it out? The child
    is in desperate need of some stable people in his life, something
    he's never had. He also needs loving and caring and unabusive people
    in his life. This sounds like you people. It's going to be a hard job.
    
       One thing I can say is that maybe your expecting too much too soon
    from him? Sounds like the child never had any responsibility or love 
    and being in a new home with a totally different picture may be
    overwhelming for him. He may also be carrying a lot of anger and
    frustrations that he can't throw aside overnight. He may need things
    to go slower for him. Like give him one job a time, when accomplished
    he could be ready for more.
    
       I'm sure others in the file will have better ideas. I just thought
    I'd write this while I'm thinking of it.
    
       TAke care,
    
        Rose Marchand

	My son is only 2.5, so my experience as a parent is very limited.  
	However, I come from a family of seven children, and I can try to 
	give you some feedback from my own experiences growing up...

	My first inclination would be to say that he's testing you.  Given 
	his background, he may want to know if you REALLY are in for the 
	long-run, or if you are just going to keep him around when/if it's 
	convenient.  It may be as simple a that.  Then again...

	That may not be all there is...  I agree that some of his actions 
	may just be a part of his personality.  I have one brother in 
	particular who is very adept at many things.  However, for SOME 
	REASON that I never will totally understand, he just never thinks 
	to do some obvious tasks.

	Let me try to give you an example...  If I were to head to bed at 
	the end of the day, and there was a sink full of dirty dishes, I'd 
	feel inclined to try to clean them up before I went upstairs.  If 
	I was too tired, or too lazy, and didn't do it, I'd at least have 
	a sense of something needing to be done.

	My brother, on the other hand, would very likely never even THINK 
	to clean a dish, unless he needed one, and couldn't find one.  If 
	you verbally said to him, as he was walking to the sink, with a 
	dirty dish in hand, "Please rinse off your dish, and put it in the 
	dishwasher", he would do it willingly, and without question.  This 
	may be an over-simplified example, but I hope it gives you the idea.  

	He has always been like this...  He isn't lazy.  It just doesn't 
	seem to click to him that certain things just seem inherent to 
	other people.   And... he's not the only one...  A few years back, 
	I worked (here at Digital) with a grown (50's) man who was the SAME 
	way...  He was extremely intelligent.  Yet, some very logical tasks, 
	that anyone else in the group wouldn't think twice of, you'd have 
	to spell out to him.  Otherwise, it would just never occur to him 
	to do them.

	If this is the case with your foster child, the only thing you 
	can really do is accept that he probably won't change.  To get 
	angry that he doesn't think to do something is asking him to 
	be something that just isn't in his nature.  If this is the only 
	problem you have with him, you may find it much less stressful 
	to accept that he is a child that will need constant reminding, 
	and not try to fight it.  That way, you can be pleasantly 
	surprised when he DOES remember, rather than constanting being 
	disappointed when he doesn't.

Yes, all three of us have been in counseling.  Joe is not responding well
to it, but my husband and I find it most helpful.

Yes, we've met with his teachers. They are wonderful!  They have taken a 
real interest in Joe and have really tried to help him adjust. But they, too,
are getting discouraged with his lack of response.  

>Threatening him with going to another home is not going to do any
>good.  Why should he do any better if he feels like you don't care
>enough to put the commitment to the test and are just going to dump
>him on someone else.  What would you do if he really was your 
>biological 13 yr old and he acted like this, tell him to leave?

I know threatening him isn't doing any good, but I have to think of my
husband's health, too. I think I do think of Joe as my own child as I care
for him very much, and I've often wondered, what WOULD a biological 
parent do in this situation? 

I guess the lack of response to virtually everything we do for Joe or ask
him to do is what's the most frustrating. 

Thanks for your responses and encouragement!

Ellen

    Has he ever been tested for Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD).  My
    fifteen year old daughter was diagnosed in the fourth grade and has
    alot of the symtoms you just described.  
    
    I would have to sit down with her every night to make sure she did
    her homework and she would forget to turn it in the next day.  She
    would also forget to write down homework assignments and would forget
    to get the teachers to sign her notebook on how she was doing.  I 
    don't think now looking back that she did it on purpose, I honestly
    thing that they have very short attentions spans and forget things
    easily.  
    
    As far as cleaning his room, I finally had to start closing her
    bedroom door so that I wouldn't see the mess and when it finally
    got to her she would clean it.  
    
    Oh, and don't make the mistake of thinking if he is getting good
    grades that he could not have ADD.  Some kids are good students
    and still have ADD.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    Vickie

For ADD info, see ASABET::LEARNING_DISABILITIES (KP7 or SELECT to add to your
notebook).

    I have the same model;-)  I think that the behavior you are seeing is
    a combination of puberty and a lot of emotional baggage.  Sounds to me
    like he is testing to see if in fact you are going to send him back.
    Kind of, "how much will they take and still keep me?"  This is a great 
    testing age.  

    I agree with some outside therapy for him, he has had a tough go of
    it.  There are some great "How To" books on this age as well.  I find my
    rebellious 12.5 year old responds much better to positive
    re-enforcement versus the negative take_things_away stuff.

    Your school guidance counselor should help with the school stuff.
    You have one disadvantage at this point, you have missed his "history".  
    When Matt's evil twin comes out I have the benefit of knowing he really 
    is a great kid and this is a tough time.  You have acquired a child at 
    one of the most difficult times of his life in the best of circumstances.

    The up side is that this is a great age if you can get past the attitude
    stuff.  He is becoming and adult, and can be a real joy to have around 
    once the roles/relationships get established.
    
    Please feel free to contact me off line for any referrals.
    
    Tracy
     

    
    Try another angle here ....
    
    He's never been loved.  He's never been cared for, and probably only
    had his own caring feelings tossed back in his face.  NOW, "out of the
    blue" come 'these people' who say they love him.  Yeah, that's what the
    lady who adopted him said too!  You expect him to love you too.  Yeah
    RIGHT!  That's Never been anything but trouble for him.  But after a
    few months of you hanging around, he's starting to get attached.  BUT,
    because of his past is *SO* convinced that you'll abandon him, that
    he's pulling out all the stops in an effort to "force" you to abandon
    him Now and get the pain over with sooner.  Before he gets really
    attached and you decide to pull the plug on him - like everyone else
    has.  
    
    My stab at it is that it's just a test.  And if you suffer through this
    behavior, there may only be worse around the corner - not necessarily
    because he dislikes you, or is bad, but he's probably *SO* afraid of
    being hurt again.  If he misbehaves he can then re-emphasize his own
    negative feelings about himself, blame himself if things go wrong, and
    get "sent away" again.  Because in his eyes, I'm sure he feels he
    deserves no more than "nothing", and probably a lot less.
    
    It may be worth something to find out what triggered the abuse in his
    past.  Was it that Mom would get high and then beat him because the
    place was messy or something?  If that's the case, maybe he
    intentionally doesn't clean/listen because he wants to see if you too
    will abuse him.
    
    My best advice is to try to sit down and talk with him (and you'll
    probably have to do it a thousand times, in a million different ways). 
    Explain that you WON'T give up on him, you DO love him, and no matter
    how unsure or scared he feels, you WILL always be there for him. 
    Threatening to abandon him only reinforces all of his own negative
    feelings of worthlessness.  Explain that YOU are scared too.  It's hard
    for you too, but you all need to work together, and what does *HE
    THINK* will help solve problems a, b and c.  Don't try to fix it all at
    once - that would be overwhelming, and probably wouldn't work.  Focus
    on the few most critical.  Constant improvement beats postponed
    perfection.  You won't survive if you try to make a 200 foot drop in a
    single jump - but if you carefully pick your way down, there may be
    scrapes and bruises, but everyone can make it intact.
    
    Ask for his help.  Set up firm rules and guidelines.  It's Okay to
    punish him, and expect things from him - as long as it's clear, and the
    consequences are understood upfront.  
    
    And as for not listening .... well, mine are 9 and 6, and are quite
    adept at tuning me out, or "forgetting" to do things.  The rest of life
    is just THAT much more appealing.  What I finds frustrates me the most
    is when I THOUGHT that they were listening, but they were really
    ignoring me.  So, when there's something that they REALLY need to hear,
    I will make SURE I have their attention and eye contact, and sometimes
    will hold their face (gently) while I talk to them.  I figure it's up
    to me to teach them to Concentrate when someone's talking, and if that
    means (for now) that I need to physically touch/hold them to listen to
    me, then that's okay.
    
    As for missing the obvious .... Chris is so oblivious to the rest of
    the world, sometimes, I swear that a boulder could land beside him and
    he'd never notice.  Jason could tell you if I moved the coasters on the
    living room table.  People are just different.
    
    Best of luck with Joe .... kids are never easy, and troubled kids are
    that much more difficult.  It sounds like you are unsure about your
    committment to this child, and I'm sure he picks up on that as well. 
    Once you decide if you're committed or not, it should make everything
    else a lot easier.  EXPLAIN to Joe that his behavior is having a
    negative effect on your husband's health, and that you need his HELP. 
    Remember - Joe doesn't really know what a family is, and may be
    completely missing the part where family members are expected to help
    each other out.  Tell him Hubby has always wanted a son (assuming he
    has), and he's counting on Joe to love him, to let Hubby love Joe, and
    to help each other.  I guess - Make Joe feel like a PART of everything,
    instead of just the kid who's always causing/getting into trouble.
    
    And try a different counselor for the boy.  I've been to a few - some
    were awful, some were great.  Different strokes for different folks.
    
    

    Hi,
    
    I have raised one teenager and some of what you are going through
    sounds pretty typical, at least as far as the not bathing and the messy
    room situation.  If he is a perfectionist he may not want to turn in
    homework if he doesn't feel it isnt perfect, or this may just be a way
    of testing you as well, or there could be a problem with ADD.
    
    What I did to maintain my sanity until the next phase of puberty hit
    with my daughter:
    
    	1.  My rule was that there had to be a pathway from her door to her
    bed and dresser.  Other than that, I left the door closed to her room
    most of the time.  To reduce any health hazard, eating was permitted
    in the kitchen and diningroom only.  
    
    	2.  I did insist that she hit the showers once or twice a week.  In
    about a year or two from now you will wish he had never learned to take
    a shower, he will live in there.  I know thiss isnt just girls, as a 
    freind of mine's son went from "bathless" to at least two showers a
    day, more if he could get away with it.  Tooth brushing worked the same
    way.  
    
    	3.  School work was a pain in her case because she was a
    perfectionist and didn't want to see a grade below a B.  It took a while
    to convince her that I would prefer to see a "real" F to a zero which
    meant she didn't try to me.   She straightened this out by the 9th
    grade finally, but 7th and 8th grade were the pits until she decided
    she wanted to get into sports and for that she had to keep her grades
    up.  
    
    	4.  This kid has been bounced around and it sounds like some of the
    environments he has lived in haven't valued education, or drawn many
    boundries on behavior.  He is also at the beginning of puberty which
    carries a whole lot of attitude changes with it.  firm, loving directions 
    and lots of positive reenforcement when he does do something right will
    really get you further than anything else I can think of.
    
    Good luck even under the best circumstances teens are a rough go, and
    totally uncivilized most of the time, but they can and will grow
    through this stage.
    
    Meg

Hi, Ellen.  I started note 63.* on Foster Parenting.  You may want to take
a look at it.

We had our 10 year old niece with us for a summer, with the possibility of
having her live with us on a more long term basis.  At the end of the summer
we were very glad to send her back to her mom.  The following year she wrote
to us, asking to live with us permanently.  We spoke to our pediatrician 
about it, and I spoke with a therapist who had been a foster parent.  We
decided wholeheartedly not to take her in.  (We later heard from her mother
that mom hadn't even known she had written us).

What we learned most of all was that before she will change, *she* has to want
to change.  Until she has demonstrated that to us (and it will take a lot
to convince us), we will not take her.

You need to decide, as we did, what is in *your* best interests.  If you are
really concerned about your husband's health, then you need to stop being
foster parents.  This situation is not going to get significantly easier
any time soon.  I would guess that this boy would have to live with you at
least a year before you saw any significant change.  In the meantime, as 
someone else mentioned, it could get much worse.  Until you have made up your
mind about whether or not to continue foster parenting, do *not* tell him
you will keep him, or that you will not keep him.  He should not hear 
assurances that you might not keep, and I do not think that hearing that he may
be given up again is going to help him at this time (or change his ways). 

IF you decide to keep him, you'd better be darn sure you are willing to put
up with the problems he gives *you*.  If you are willing to put up with it,
no matter what it is, then you are in for a long, difficult time, but it
may have a very rewarding end.  Still, it is ultimately up to him, not you.
You may be the best foster parents in the world and it WON'T HELP in any
way that you can see results.  

I wish I knew whether perseverance on your part would get you through one hard
year, only to have things improve slowly but continually after that.  It may.
And it may not.

Whatever you decide, I wish all 3 of you health and happiness.

     Carol

    As a parent of a 16 year old, a four year old and having been a foster
    parent off and on for years I really know what you are going through. 
    It's not easy and it probably won't for some time to come.  My own 16
    year old has an IQ of 130 and was flunking out of 10th grade.  Cleaning
    her room is something else again.  I guess kids just like messes!!!!  I
    once had a boy who was about the same age as Joe and the rules were
    that he take a shower every morning before school.  I really thought he
    was doing this as he would go into the bathroom every morning and come
    out with his hair wet.  I got a call from his teacher one day about his
    body odor.  The next morning when he was in the bathroom my husband
    went in only to find him standing there with his head under the shower. 
    He was going in every morning and sticking his head under the shower so
    we would think he was taking a shower.  Thirteen is the age where they
    really start testing you and you really have to be strong.  I guess my
    advise is stick with it things will get better.  Threating to send him
    back is a BIG mistake!  Foster children are to used to rejection.
    
    GOOD LUCK
    Karen

    Foster kids are used to rejection and they are used to playing people
    for what they can get.  Have you taken the state-run foster parenting
    course?  Have you been able to speak with other foster parents - ones
    who have been through this - there is usually a network of parents you
    can easily call on for guidance and just to vent.  I would agree that
    you have to give this kid time, but in the meantime - don't give up on
    him.  We had a foster baby - he came to us 3 days after his first
    birthday.  This poor child had no teeth, was skinny as a rail, and the
    milk in his bottle was sour.  He did not like to be held or cuddled in
    any way...just put me on the floor and leave me alone.  He would bang
    his head against the crib all the time.  The first night I got him
    ready for bed and sat in the rocker with him and his bottle and just
    held him - he fought me the whole time.  By the end of 5 months this
    baby was a living sweet gentle kid with a mouth full of teeth and
    actual meat on his bones.  He was such a happy baby.  He stopped
    beating himself up in his crib and was well on his way to becoming well
    adjusted.  
    
    This kid had never been in the system, never been shown real love, and
    never allowed to be a baby.  Give Joe time to blossom - it may take
    a longer time than you anticipate, but with counseling (find someone he
    can relate to - don't take the first one who comes along), and a
    genuine feeling of love and security, he will come around.
    
    -sandy
    

First, I'd like to thank all of you for your replies, suggestions, and words of
encouragement.  It really means a lot to all three of us!

I called Joe's Guardian Ad Litem on Tuesday and asked for help.  She called his 
Juvenile Service Officer (JSO) who "happened" to bump into the judge that day. 
(The judge is the one who originally saw Joe's potential and ordered a permanent 
foster care situation for him.)  

Well, yesterday the judge called an "emergency" hearing and we all went to court.  
It was a little unnverving for my huband and I who have never seen the inside of a 
courtroom, but Joe took it in stride. The judge heard our side first without Joe
in the room, and then Joe's side without us in the room.  It was very emotional
for all of us, and the bottom line is that Joe wants to stay with us and we want 
him to.  The judge has ordered a counselor (a different one) to come to our house
in the evenings to work with all of us, and a review of the case every 30 days.
Joe has committed to making up all the work he can in the last days of school and 
to helping out around the house. 

I never expected such quick action!  It reinforced our belief that the judge and the
others involved really believe in Joe and really want him to succeed. 

I had to laugh last night when Joe asked me if I wanted a glass of milk.  When I
asked him, "Why milk?" he said the judge told him to help around the house and to
ask us if we want something once in a while, like a glass of milk. Joe made a 
sandwich for me, and a snack for my husband.  Then, after I tucked him in (Joe, that
is) and I was working on the computer, I heard this voice ask, "Do you really 
love me?"  Through our tears, my husband and I assured him that we both truly love 
him and want him to stay with us. 

We realize that there are still many rough times ahead.  But we're in for the long
haul and with help from others, I think all three of us will do fine. Now, we're
all looking forward to the Red Sox game on Saturday and a big celebration for Joe's 
13th birthday.

Thanks again for all your support!

Ellen     

    Ellen,
    
    What a wonderful update!  Thanks for sharing it with us.  It is so
    refreshing to finally hear about the juvenile system doing something
    right for a change, kudos to his JSO and the Judge.
    
    I'm sure there'll still be a lot of work to do, but it sounds like you
    have an awesome kid just waiting to be brought out.
    
    Susan

    
        Wow Ellen that's great! It's seems like when life looks so gloomy
    and then something good happens to make something a person is
    struggling for worthwhile. It's so good to hear that there are people
    who want to help the less fortunate. This string really got to me
    because of the fact that there was and "abused child" in it. Through
    the recovery I've been in for the last few years I've reallized how
    horrible and how abuse in your childhood can ruin or nearly ruin
    your life. It's only been this past year or so that's I've really
    seen the damage that some parents do to their children. Even
    though I knew it I was a major "Queen of Denial" to the fact of the
    damage that was done to me. The way I've been because of it. 
    
        I can see more of the good in people now because of the "good"
    people that have helped me and supported me. It's good to hear that
    this can happen to a 13 year old before he's an adult. Even just
    reading how parents in this file love their children and want to
    do what's right has been a big help.
    
        So your update brought tears to my eyes. Joe's a lucky boy and
    with all the support the 3 of you are getting life will be more 
    rewarding for the whole family.  
    
       Have fun at the game!
    
       Rose

    I second that WOW!  I wish you the very best.  It takes takes a lot of
    love and patience to deal with foster children and more than that to
    deal with 13 year olds!  
    
    We recently took in a 16 1/2 yr old boy who lost his father in February
    and was abandoned by his mother at a young age.  We bonded instantly. 
    As it sounds like you have.  What I told him is that love is
    unconditional, I love you know matter what.  I may not like some of the
    things you do but that doesn't mean I don't love you.  I think you have
    to let your son know that too.  My son has pushed and when I come down
    on him and he knows he's pushed too far, I can truly tell he's sorry
    for not only does he tell me but his behavior changes.
    
    All in all it's a truly rewarding experience to know you are making a
    difference in this child's live.
    
    I agree with every noter that has responded to you also.  Give your son
    all the love and patience you can and God will help you through this. 
    You are good people.
    
    Mary

      Thanks for putting in the update Ellen.  It brought tears to my
      eyes too!  There may still be some rough times ahead with Joe,
      but its wonderful to hear that the judge, guardian ad lit... (SP?),
      and others are really supportive and helpful - that will be a 
      tremendous asset to you and your family!  I'm sure that this has
      been a great demonstration to Joe of how much people want him to
      be successful in adapting to a family, and most of all how much he
      means to you.  My prayers are with you.

      Leslie

    Tears here, too.
    
    -sjd
    

<    Tears here, too.

Me, too.  :-)    

It sounds like you *all* are willing to work on this, and that in itself
sounds like it will all work out.  I'm really glad for you all.  :-)

      Carol 

    < tears here too
    
    ....add another to the list!  I'm glad that things are looking positive
    for you and your family, and wish you all the best.  It won't always be
    easy, but I'm sure you'll find - it's well worth it!
    
    Hugs ...

    I'm still catching up on a year plus of notes.  Just read this one, and
    I have tears too.
    
    Is the basenoter still out there?  Could we have an update.  I do hope
    it is a positive one.
    
    Lyn
    
    (who spent last night trying to cut a path from the door to the bureau
    of my 8.5 yr old son's room!  It's like doing a days work!)