Conference moira::parenting

> mother" and he fears that I am trying to keep Paul from doing what little
> boys live for; get in trouble and hurt occasionally.  He has even said

Well, that's a sexist attitude.  Getting in trouble and getting hurt
occasionally is the lot of *all* children, not just little boys! :-)

Seriously, my rules would be something like this:

    1 -	Falling down and getting hurt is a fundamental part of growing up.
	The parents' job is to be there to kiss the bruises.

    2 -	Watchfulness does not take the place of babyproofing.  If a baby could
	seriously damage himself or herself on something (hot, sharp,
	electrical, etc.) then he or she shouldn't be able to get at it.
	Otherwise, there will surely come a day when you won't be watching.

    3 - "Babyproofing" applies to the baby as well as the house.  If something
	is dangerous, the baby needs to learn to stay away from it.  For 
	Elspeth's first year or 18 months, this was the *only* thing we used 
	"NO" for -- stoves, electrical cords, going towards the street.

2 and 3 are complementary -- neither takes the place of the other.

Whether a particular situation falls in category 1 or category 2/3 is a judgment
call.  I would ask "How much damage am I willing to let him do to himself?" and
"How much damage could he do to himself if I let him <insert activity here>?" 

By the way, I don't know if it would work with your spiral staircase, but I like
a suggestion I've seen here before:  they have to learn stairs eventually, so
don't block off the *bottom* of the stairs:  block off two or three steps up.

	-Neil

    Neil,
    
    I like your comments.  However, the metal spiral staircase has little
    sharp points on the steps.  It is hard for even me to get up in the
    morning and walk down it.  When I was pregnant and my feet were
    swollen... well, that's another subject. :)  The staircase is very
    dangerous and I believe that my husband does understand that but
    he thinks I'm going alittle overboard with trying to board it up every
    minute that Paul is playing.  He might be right but I have this
    attitude about "better safe than sorry".
    
    I also agree with you about his comment being sexist.  He probably
    didn't think much of it, considering that he plays rough with his neice
    too.  
    
    Thanks for the input!
    cj 

    I'm of the school that doesn't babyproof a whole lot and tries more to
    teach the kids what they can and cannot do. We did things like plug
    covers, and a gate, but I only put up a small barricade so the kids
    wouldn't go behind the couch, and we didn't put anything in front of
    the woodstove that we use to heat the downstairs [it's in the family
    room].  We started off very early, as in once they were mobile,
    removing them from things they weren't supposed to go near.   I think
    in the case of your stairs, if they have sharp points, I'd probably
    cover those, but I wouldn't necessarily block off the whole staircase.
    And I'd just move Keith's weights over to the side of the room near the
    wall.  The most that can happen with the weights is that Paul will fall
    on them, but if they are out of the way, they hopefully will be less
    attractive to him.
    
    I have a friend who did extensive babyproofing to the extent that she
    wouldn't have curtains that went low enough for the baby to reach up
    and possibly climb or pull down, she had her house remodelled with only
    overhead lights and no electrical cords within reach, she had her
    husband plumb the bathroom sink so the hot and cold are backwards in
    case their daughter was in the tub and wanted to reach over and turn on
    the faucet [it would be the cold one], etc. I think that's extreme, but
    that was within her comfort zone. I'm on the other end of the scale. We
    have electrical cords within reach [and one humongous cord that
    connects the TV and stereo and is right where the kids stand to look
    out the window], but they learned early on that this was not allowed. 
    We also have a ceramic tile kitchen floor, so I have kissed my share of
    bruises just from the kids learning to walk.
    
    I believe I can't be everywhere all the time, so I've tried to
    babyproof what they'll really get seriously hurt on, and try to teach
    them not to touch the things they shouldn't.  It means removing them a
    lot, but they do eventually learn, and at a young age, they can
    sometimes be distracted.  Pick what you think is important to
    babyproof, and they work the other way and houseproof the baby.  
    
    

	cj...

	I'm starting to consider this myself even though it will be
	another month or two before Lauren crawls.  I can tell now that
	she will be into EVERYTHING!!  She is always grabbing whatever
	is in her reach.

	Our biggest dilemma is our basement stairs.  The kitty litter
	is in the basement so the door is always open.  I could move
	the kitty litter upstairs but then I'd have the problem of 
	keeping her out of it.  The obvious solution would be to use
	a gate to block the basement stairs (or the bathroom if I move
	the litter upstairs).  Only thing is, my 20 pound cat would
	not be able to get over it!  We could also put in a pet door
	but the door is one of those hollow plastic ones so I'm not
	sure how this will work.  We do have one idea that might work
	for your spiral stairs.  We are considering blocking the door
	with a net.  The cats could crawl under it and it would somewhat
	deter Lauren.  I'm sure she could get around it if she tried
	so we will have to be careful.  Our other solution, and the one
	I am most likely to consider is simply to leave the door shut
	when we are home and awake.  The cats can "hold it" for a few
	hours in the evening.  Weekends are another issue ...

	Anyhow, I'm not looking for suggestions here... I think I've 
	come up with all the possibilities.  Now just have to see which	
	one will work!

	Karen	

    
    Asking a cat to "hold it" while you are away is asking for trouble. If
    a cat has to go and there is no where to go they will find a spot (and
    cat urine on carpeting essentially means the carpet needs to be
    replaced).
    
    When we had a simliar situation we set up a gate but all owed enough
    space for the cats to crawl *under* it. In your situation make sure
    that there is not enough space for your child to crawl under it.
    
    				Wendy
    	

    re: .-1
    
    We also have to keep the basement stairs open in order for the cats
    to get to their  box.  I put up one of those chain latches on the door.
    It allows the door to be open 3-4 inches which is plenty for the cats.
    I also have a small doorstop to keep it propped open.  The opening is
    too small for the kids to get into.
    
    
    				Mary
    

re: Russo


	Thanks for the chain latch idea!  That was probably the only one 
	I didn't think of and it is the best one yet!  I'll definately use it!
	
	It's kind of funny to see Bandit squeeze his portly 20 lb frame
	through a three inch opening.  I've seen him do it so I know he
	can!  

	Karen

Seems to me that the doorstop or some other means of keeping it ajar is an 
important part of the equation.  Otherwise, it could get closed, either 
absent mindedly or accidentally and/or pinch some little fingers.

Clay

    I have no real helpful hints as luckily our house was easily
    babyproofed.  
    
    Just don't worry about being over-protective, baby's will naturally
    fall over, bump themselves, etc, etc, and hugs and kisses are great for
    that.  But as a friend of mine who lost her little one due to falling
    down stairs can attest, you can NEVER be TOO careful there.
    
    Also, another factor I consider is how much do I want to be on "guard"
    duty.  Moms need a break too, and you can't relax, do a hobby, (or do
    housework), effectively if you have to jump up every minute to see what
    baby is doing.                                      
    
    -jw

    .9> Just don't worry about being over-protective, baby's will naturally
      > fall over, bump themselves, etc, etc, and hugs and kisses are great for
      > that. 
    
    This just reminded me, and I may be emphasizing the obvious here, but
    when babies *do* bump themselves it's important (IMO) to keep an
    impassive or "Oh-my-goodness" surprised expression on your face,
    because the baby will take your cue.  Otherwise (if you rush to his
    side with an anxious expression) you can train a baby *very quickly* 
    to burst into tears whenever he's bumped or sits down hard!
    
    Boy, I don't know about the circular staircase.  A length of 4" thick
    foam rubber, say 3' x 12', to wrap around everything but the stair
    entrance?  And then a gate at the 3rd step?
    
    Leslie

    
    How about putting a play-yard around the bottom of the circular
    staircase?
    
    .........................beth

    
    Wow, seven months old! Ariel is 10mo and is that way. I'm kinda glad
    she took a while. Did you try putting the play pen in front of the
    stair case? That's what we do. She hates the playpen, so we use it
    more as a toybox. I place it infront of the staircase and we can still
    move it when we go up the stairs. This will probably only work until
    she can figure out that she can move it, but for now it works. 
    
    As for the rest of my house.... Well I don't babyproof everything. And
    don't think that you're the only one who wishes she had eyes all around
    her head.  Two seconds and anything can happen. Its tough, but I
    decided not to remove everything off my entertainment center or move
    the table out of the room. My sitter did that one day (she also has a
    1year old) and I got mad. I came home to a living room that looked like
    an empty shell.  Everything was put away on top of the entertainment
    center, off the floor, against the wall and bundled up high.  One day a
    chunk of the wallpaper was missing, but I didn't peel the rest off to
    keep it away.  I just grinned and beared it.  I say "no-no" a lot and
    she understands, stops and retreats. (Most of the time)    
    
    
    I'm blessed though, I have an 11yr old that I use as a watchdog when I
    need to get things done.  God bless her!  I'm also 7 1/2 mo pregnant
    so chasing Ariel is tough on me.  The energizer bunny rides again!!!
    Chin up,,,, CJ, wait till he
    starts walking!!!
    
    
    Rose

    Oh Rose, I hate to say it, but I think Paul Joseph will be walking
    shortly.  He is now cruising furniture.  He doesn't like to crawl but
    does so only to get to something so he can stand.
    
    So far, he hit his head on the bookshelf because I put the weight bar
    next to this which is by the wall. Big mistake; its better to put it in
    the middle of the floor so he can play with it and we can watch him.  
    
    He made it to the second step Saturday morning as I did the dishes.  I
    watched while he thought he was king of the hill and then went to take
    him off and firmly said 'NO PAUL JOSEPH WALTER!!!' Well the poor kid
    looked as though he lost his best friend but he knew it was for good
    reason.  Right now, we just have the "very underused" Jane Fonda pad
    there and so far, all is well. I think, in the end, when we do have to
    do something (besides move) will be to put a piece of foam around it
    and get rid of the pad we have now.  Seems as though if it were taped
    all the way around it would be o.k., of course until he gets a bit
    bigger but by then, we should have moved.
    
    Thanks to everyone for your comments.  I am not happy to say that most
    people agreed with Keith but for some reason, its alot of easier
    hearing it from you parenting folks than from my husband.  :) :)
    
    So far, Paul has only had a few falls and I do agree with the noter
    that said you can't go running over like he is going to die from the fall
    because he did indeed burst out in tears when he fell from the rocker
    (6 inches, on the carpet, but Mom ran over anyways) and then once I
    picked him up he umm, "forgot" what he was crying about.
    
    cj

    
    Just a quick note to let you know that I also have spiral stairs.  Very
    narrow and also cast iron.  All's I did was put a gate a couple of
    steps up and it worked perfect.  The stairs are carpeted which also
    helps.  They do have to learn how to use them sooner or later and 
    plenty of practice can't hurt.  My daughter, 22 months
    goes up and down the stairs herself.  Trust me, I still get nervous.
    
    deb
    
    
    

When do kids begin to understand no?  Lauren is 6 months old now and
I don't know if I should start telling her no or am I just wasting my
breath?

Karen

    karen,
    
    Use the word, even though she doesn't quite understand it yet.  Atlehi
    (13 months tomorrow) understands no, as we have used it forever while
    removing her from a dangerous situation.  She hates the word and
    generally has a conipption, but stops what she is doing while screaming
    her displeasure at the word.  
    
    meg

    I'd like to know the answer to this one myself. My son, 16 mos, thinks
    it's great fun when I say no. I've had to warn him a couple times that
    he if he...opened the trash can...stood up on the chair...etc...I'd 
    give him a time out. I've only done this a couple times but I wonder if
    it's having any effect. 
    
    It doesn't seem like he understands no. Funny though he understands
    almost everything else. :-)
    
    Karen

Disclaimer: I am a fanatical baby proofer.

Reasons: 1. I read too much and therfore know what can happen.
         2. How would you live with yourself if your child were
            killed or permanently crippled in a perventable accident?


Some scary facts: 

1. 225,000 children per year are brought to the emergency room each year
   from play related injuries.

2. 50% of all children who fall down stairs went through a child restraint
   system first.  Gate related injuries are the worst because the child
   tumbles down the stairs with the gate.  The biggest problem is that most
   parents are willing to risk thier childs life in order to preserve the
   decor of thier house, this sounds harsh but it is true.

3. One of the most leading causes of child injuries is coffee tables.  You
   are a fool if you do not remove it immediatly.

   Example:  One of my nephews was playing on his grandmothers couch and fell
             off an approximate distance of 2 ft.  He drove his two front teeth
             back into his gums doing serious damage to the gums and destroying
             the teeth.  Why? because he hit a coffee table!!!!

   Coffee tables are bad because the focal point of impact is high enough
   so that the full momemtum of the falling body is absorbed by the focal
   point.  Contrast this with striking the floor where the rest of the body
   takes the majority of the impact.                  

4. Older children may seem to be helpfull when they actually contribute
   significantly to the risk.  They are more likely to leave doors open
   to dangerous areas, more likely to leave sharp objects around.  Small
   children are the worst.  A common accident is for a small child to
   pull a high chair backward onto themselves resulting in head injuries
   for the infant strapped into the chair.  In 1990, the year we bought
   a low chair, 19 children were killed this way.



Solutions:

1. Remove all low tables until at least 3.5 years old!

2. Remove all breakable items from reach of children.

3. Install child locks on all cabinets.

4. Lock all chemicals in cabinets to high for children to
   reach.

5. Consider cutting a very narrow slot in the door above the stairs
   for the cat 3" or less.  This may look ugly but it will be safe.
   Also you can install a permanent solid gate about 3.5 ft tall
   which the cats can jump.

6. Remove all small chokable objects from reach.  Having a child
   choke to death in your arms is probably one of the most
   horrible things that can happen to you.


Read up on the subject of childhood injuries and you will
be as fanatical as I am.  I also have my own proof, I have
two children 2 and 5 and neither has sustained a serious
play related injury even though I have built a large
playscape in the back yard.

The added benefit is that you do not have to watch them
constantly and they are free to explore their environment.
Leave one or two cabinets open and fill them with either
toys or safe kitchen stuff such as pots and pans and
your child will learn to be carefull with only a pinched
finger or two.

Our rule, for probably the first 18 months or so, was that "no" was absolutely
reserved for safety rules.  We said it quite rarely; when we did say it, we were
firm, even harsh.  There was no question that we were serious.

.16:

>    removing her from a dangerous situation.  She hates the word and
>    generally has a conipption, but stops what she is doing while screaming
>    her displeasure at the word.  

That was our experience, too.  Elspeth would burst into tears rather than having
a fit; but there was no doubt that she got the message, and that was what
counted.

What we wanted was something that would work if we absolutely had to stop her
doing something right now, and she was on the other side of the room; and a
hollered "ELSPETH, NO!" seemed to fit the bill.

Of course, as in all things, your mileage may vary...

	-Neil

    
    Just curious, what does a 6 month old do that would require the use of
    "no"? When my kids are 6 months old they are essentially still in the
    lump stage and don't get around much (sleeping, wetting, eating and
    drinking are the highlights of the day).
    
    				Wendy

    Wow, power statements in the statistics regarding choking, coffee
    tables, etc.
    
    Where can I get some training in case some type of injury does happen
    (not that I suspect it will be you got me thinking; I don't even
    remember CPR!)
    
    cj
    (Littleton, MA)
    

    Carla...
    
    If Digital (contact health services) doesn't offer CPR, call Emerson
    Hospital.  They have classes for the public.
    
    -sjd
    

>>    Just curious, what does a 6 month old do that would require the use of
>>    "no"? 

	Nothing really... she just grabs for whatever is in my hand,
	food, books, paper.  I usually say, "no... thats mommy's".  It
	is certainly not something that I would dicipline her for.  I	
	was really just wondering if she understood the concept of "no"
	yet.  

	Sometimes when she is crying and I'm trying to eat dinner, I 
	try to explain that she has to wait but she doesn't understand... 
	I usually end up giving in and eating with her on my lap and
	I wonder if I am spoiling her.  My in-laws think I am and my
	husband too.  I just get indigestion when she is screaming 
	during my meal so I find it more relaxing for me to hold her.

	I'm ratholing this topic!  Cj... please forgive me!

	Back to safety... I tested Bandit with the slider to see what
	he could fit through.  He can't make it through a 3" opening!
	4-1/2" and he made it.  I expect a baby could squeeze through
	that too.  Never fear.. I'll come up with something that will
	work to keep baby from the basement!

	Karen

	

    Karen,
    
    To add to your rathole, I don't think you are spoiling her by holding
    her in your lap while eating, but I have done this with all three of my
    kids, until they were comfortable in a high chair.  Besides babies were
    made to be held and cuddled ;-)
    
    meg

    While .18 is certainly heartfelt, I didn't keep that level of
    babyproofing because
    
    - I felt it was basically creating an artificial world;
    - I couldn't maintain that level of babyproofing outside of my 4 walls;
    - I could drive myself nuts with "what ifs" and statistics, when my
      attention should be on *what the baby's doing right now*.
    
    Sure, it's possible to babyproof "to the max", but when you step out
    into the real world, you are less practiced in watching the baby like a
    hawk at all times.  And that's what you'll need to do, because the baby
    doesn't know about danger and thinks the whole world is there for the
    probing, pulling and swallowing (since *everything's* safe at home).
    
    I 'proofed the big nasty stuff and "didn't sweat the small stuff" ]:-}
    - of course, being a single parent of an only child afforded me the
    luxury of very few distractions, too.
    
    Leslie

    
    I second .24. You cannot spoil a child with a cuddle while you eat. I
    still let Rebbeca (25 months) sit on my lap while I am eating if she is
    unhappy about something and has finished her own food. The result is a
    happy peaceful family meal.
    
    Back to the topic - yes you can over baby-proof. Remember that when the
    child goes visiting, most places won't even have moved tables, china
    etc out of the way, let alone put cushions over everything. We moved
    valuables out of reach in our house, told Rebecca not to touch the TV,
    Hi-fi, oven etc, put cushions over the hearth and a gate at the top and
    bottom of the stairs and locked away the nasty chems. She has learnt 
    which cupboards she can open and what is allowed. She rarely alone in a
    room as she follows one of us everywhere and is in full time daycare,
    so it not in the house all the time. Using these methods I am relaxed
    when we go to other people's houses - she knows not to touch things and
    to keep away from the kitchen etc. Baby proofing and being socialable
    go hand in hand!! 
    
            Celia
      

    Karen, rathole all you want! :) I am easygoing! :)
    
    I also pick Paul up if we are eating and he needs attention.  Specially
    now that he is teething.  And also because if we don't, he will crawl
    over and put his hands in our plates.  I don't have time to get his
    dinner and ours ready at the same time so he always eats before us
    (6:30 to Who's the Boss is critical!) :")  
    
    Back to the original note now... 
    
    Paul is so mobile now.  We have proofed to some degree but now Paul has
    decided that seein' how he can crawl so good that sitting and
    playing in the living room is not as much fun so, he has headed to the
    kitchen and dining areas.  This morning I was ironing and low and
    behold, in moments he was underneath me and pulling at the iron cord. 
    I firmly told him 'NO PAUL JOSEPH WALTER' and he knew but then he
    headed toward the glass table lamp and it came down quicker than I
    could get to him.  He didn't get hit by it but boy did it scare both of
    us.  I am wondering if he is ready for the NO so young.  Does he really
    know what I am saying or is it just luck that so far he has been
    cooperating?
    
    cj

    cj,
    
    even if he doesn't understand the words, babies do pick up on the
    cues that you give through your voice and body language.  I don't think
    it is too early to use "no!" and follow through with an appropriate
    reaction, such as moving a child away from a dangerous situation.  I
    really think that visual and verbal cues is how kids pick up some of
    the meanings of words.
    
    meg

	I'm not sure if this belongs in this topic or not....

	Yesterday, Lauren had a little accident.  Lauren does not
	crawl yet but she is starting to fall over alot from a sitting 
	position as she reaches to get something.  Usually, she reaches
	and just lands on her belly (we figure she'll eventually start
	crawling from this).  Sometimes she bumps her forehead on the
	floor so we make sure she is not on a hard floor.  Unfortunately,
	we didn't consider moving toys away from her at this stage.

	Yesterday, at daycare, she fell forward and bumped her forehead
	on a toy piano.  She didn't cry much so it apparently didn't
	bother her.  She took her afternoon nap and two hours later,
	when she woke up cooing, Terry went to pick her up and almost
	flipped!  Lauren had a bruise on her eyebrow and two spots of
	blood IN her eye!  

	The doctor saw her last night and checked her cornea for damage.
	Luckily everything is fine.  No concussion either (actually, if
	it were not for the blood in the eye, we would have not even	
	worried).

	The point is, this could have been worse.  The lesson we learned
	is to keep toys that she could injure herself on away from her
	while she is in this tipping stage.  The toy in question had
	edges (piano toy) and didn't move when she hit it.  The edges of
	the keys could have got her in the eye.  It was low to the floor 
	too so it took the full force of her weight when she fell.  It
	is toys like these that we will have to be careful of.  I don't
	think rattles and other small toys will pose a danger though.

	Karen

	

    Karen,
    
    Sorry to hear about Lauren!  I know how frightening this can be!!  The
    good news is that the 'tipping' stage doesn't last too long!  On the
    down side, she'll soon be able to pull herself up and walk along and
    grab at everything.  It's only a matter of time before every child gets
    hurt on something that "could have been prevented" ... if all you had
    to do was take care of the baby 7 days/week, 24 hours/day, then MAYBE
    you should somehow feel responsible.  But, since that's not the case,
    and we all have to work and cook and clean etc etc, you can only try
    your best, and accept that sometimes it won't be enough.
    
    When Jonathan was tippy, I would put some pillows beside/behind him, so
    he at least wouldn't whack his head.  He doesn't have any 'big' toys
    except a HUGE ball, so we were okay there, and I'd keep the stuff
    around him, far enough to not hurt, or only 'painless' toys.But then he
    got so that after he'd tip over, he'd start rolling/scooting around to
    get to EVERYthing!  The playpen's up now, and if he's not in his walker
    or activity rocker, he's usually in the playpen - it just got too
    dangerous any other way - they get mobile so FAST!
    
    Enjoy .... and I hope her bruise clears fast!
    
    Patty

>>>    When Jonathan was tippy, I would put some pillows beside/behind him, so
>>>    he at least wouldn't whack his head.  


	I did that when Lauren was first starting to sit and would just
	lose her balance for no particular reason.  Now, the tipping is
	caused by her trying to go somewhere.

	Laurens bruise if fading but the blood in her eye still looks 
	pretty gruesome.  She has had a tough week though.  Last night
	was the second night in a row where her temperature reached
	104.  This weather is awful to have a fever in!  We are going to 
	the doctors today though and hopefully they can tell us what is
	wrong.  Probably just a virus which means they cannot do anything
	but I'd like them to rule out ear infections or sore throat and
	that sort of stuff.  She seemed better in the day yesterday (lower 
	temperature, better temperment) so I didn't bring her to the 
	doctor yesterday.  I thought she was getting over it.  I was
	wrong.  She was worse again last night.

	Karen