| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 740.1 | My opinion | REFDV1::SENA | Wherever you go, there you are ! | Mon May 09 1994 16:52 | 36 |
| Laura,
Wow, you pushed a lot of buttons for me...
I took a parenting course in March/April called Systematic Training
for Effective Parenting (or STEP for short). One of the things
I learned is the goals of misbehavior, two of which are power and
attention. My daughter used to start off with the attention getting
misbehavior (whining) and move quickly into the "power" getting
misbehavior (demanding that I *hurry up, right NOW !!!*). If I'm
not mistaken, Ilona is roughly the same age as Nicole (she started
doing this at around 3-1/2 years), roughly the same temperment
ie: strong-willed, independent, and a tendency toward a quick
temper.
>> WHAT I'M DOING: When she acts disrespectful, I immediately pull her
>> out of her current position - away from the dining table into the hall,
>> or any way to get a change. If we're in public, I find someplace
>> relatively private.
>> I have her stand at attention, hands at her sides, no fidgeting. I ask
>> her, "Who's the boss? Who's the parent? Who's the child?" I demand
>> an apology for what she said or did. If I don't get the proper
>> responses, she remains at attention, I stand or sit in front of her,
>> and we wait. Eventually she relents, and we share a big hug and kiss.
If it's attention she's after, she sure is getting it, isn't she ??
In my opinion, this is setting you up for MAJOR power struggles down
the road. The course taught me to withdraw from power struggles, or
they will just keep escalating.
I don't know where you are located, but this course was offered through
the adult education center in Nashua, NH. It really seems to have helped
me, and I strongly recommend it.
- Joy
|
| 740.2 | | KOALA::SYSTEM | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Mon May 09 1994 16:52 | 51 |
| I think that discipline - or lack of it - in a younger child, is
exactly why Teens seem to have so many problems. Of course I don't
have any teens yet, so I have to wait and see how that plays out.
My older son is never disrespectful to me or other adults. Jason is
another story completely. He sounds a lot like Ilona. Pretty much
when he's been disrespectful to me, I tune him out. I refuse to answer
or even acknowlege him. When he asks why, I tell him it's because he's
being mean to me, and I'm not going to have anything to do with him if
he's going to treat me that way. If he wants to start being nice, then
I'll talk to him again. This seems to work pretty well, but we do find
ourselves at the same point some times. Part of it, he's "growing out
of it", and realizing that I MEAN it when I won't deal with him when
he's like that. Part of it, I think he's a little tired of trying to
keep testing that "bad" behavior.
Unfortunately, I think my battle is so difficult because his father
does not share the same views as I do. In his house, anything goes.
One time when I was picking them up, his father and I were talking.
Dad kept telling Jason to stop interrupting and stop bouncing a ball,
and Jason was just ignoring him, and kept on. Then Jason went in the
other room, came back and yelled at Dad, something like "I WANT TO
PLAY!" and whipped the ball at him, getting him right in the crotch. I
couldn't BELIEVE it!! Dad replied something like "Jason, don't do
that", and that was it. I was SHOCKED! I'd never seen him be so
intentionally rotten, and then to have no reason NOT to be like that.
I'm not sure which surprised me more - his actions, or Dad's lack of
actions.
I set Jason straight anyway, and he knows better than to try anything
THAT blatant when he's with me, but the fact that he can get away with
it at all keeps the issue popping up.
I think that ANYTHING you do to show you won't tolerate it, is probably
enough. I know that for the most part, they can get a single look from
me to know that "enough's enough!", and they stop. Next step is
ignoring, and then time out.
If the disrespect is aimed at an object of mine (like if they're not
careful w/ the electronics or something), I'll ask them if they'd like
it if I broke their toys or weren't careful with them - bringing it to
their level seems very effective. I once made Jason buy a string of
beads for me to replace the one he intentionally broke - that hit him
where it hurt (in the wallet!).
Don't stand for it, and if punishment is necessary, make the punishment
fit the crime.
|
| 740.3 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | There and back to see how far it is | Mon May 09 1994 17:11 | 71 |
| > WHAT I'M DOING: When she acts disrespectful, I immediately pull her
> out of her current position - away from the dining table into the hall,
> or any way to get a change. If we're in public, I find someplace
> relatively private.
>
> I have her stand at attention, hands at her sides, no fidgeting. I ask
> her, "Who's the boss? Who's the parent? Who's the child?" I demand
> an apology for what she said or did. If I don't get the proper
> responses, she remains at attention, I stand or sit in front of her,
> and we wait. Eventually she relents, and we share a big hug and kiss.
>
> RESULTS: I am amazed at how positively she responds after we complete
> one of these drills. She spontaneously hugs me and tells me how much
> she loves me. She actually seems relieved. This is why I think I'm
> doing the right thing.
Laura,
I'm not sure about this technique as to whether it is really breeding what
you are really looking for. Demanding an apology actually devalues the
apology to the point where it may mean nothing. The child must feel that
what she did was not nice for you. As it is, she sees it as something that
is not right for her.
The "Who's the Boss ... " dialogue may work now, but I don't see it work later
as she gets older. This is purely a matter of control ... wait till the
teens ... to carry on this dialogue will guarantee rebellion.
The results you get, I would attribute to her reaction to getting the
attention she wants by being disrespectful in the first place .. and so
she has got exactly what she wants.
I think that a better approach would be to tell the child that the words
she used to you hurt you as much as if she'd hit you (and ask her if
she remembers how it hurts to be hit). Ask her how she would like it if
you treated her in a similar way to she'd treated you.
The other thing is that I feel that some of the things you let her do / say
would fall in the same class to her as the things you do crack down on. So
she doesn't clearly know the limits.
My niece (now 6) was forever being nice one minute and nasty the next to
other kiddies ... her mother would tell her to be nice and then force an
apology. For the first couple minutes she'd be sweet and then reasonable
for maybe 20 minutes at most ... then we start all over again. Clearly the
behaviour was to get attention, the apology was to avoid further punishment.
But the whole exercise meant less and less as time went by and the time between
episodes got shorter and shorter.
Respect is a two way street ... The "I'm the boss ..." says "You are a child
... you will always be a child .. I'm an adult ... I'm a parent ... I don't
have to treat you the same way you treat me". In essence it doesn't respect
the child ... and it's hard to get respect from someone who doesn't feel they
are respected ... even from a child.
Sorry if this sounds as if I am being tough on you ... It's not intended
to be so ... Just a very dissenting opinion ... That's not to say I don't
pull the "Do as I say ..." line from time to time ... but I do try to avoid
it and use it only as a way of last resort ... and I try to avoid humiliating
the child in the process. I can't say how successful I am ... it varies ...
one kid's room has always been a mess ... and one reasonable and one good!
Stuart
|
| 740.4 | Avoid power struggles if you can | TLE::JBISHOP | | Mon May 09 1994 17:37 | 13 |
| Luckily we don't get much of the disrespect, but when it
does happen, we say "Are you being silly?", in a light-hearted,
unoffended way. This seems to defuse things, turning a
confrontation between authority and rebellion into a mutual
joke.
This can't be used when you're angry, nor when the child
isn't prepared to be joked with (e.g. is seriously angry
or unhappy).
They do want attention, don't they?
-John Bishop
|
| 740.5 | try the "useful job for punishment" method | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | dad pays;it pays to be dad | Mon May 09 1994 17:56 | 54 |
|
re .0
taking your child to the side and then applying the method you describe,
sounds a very good method!
of course the "little devils" will only play up this way when you're most
vulnerable, ie. in public - its attention grabbing, really.
but its also a sign of age - it will get better.
i never forget, when my daughter was the age of ilona, we all went to this
really neat english country cottage tea house in east sussex. it was really
posh and proper, alot of people in their forties there, all well dressed and
as is the case in such posh places, they appeared to be whispering as they
conversed. enter my wife and i with georgina. the waitress too is very posh
and polite. we order tea with scones, jam and whipped cream (a speciality of
the area). georgina has been sulking, we didn't pay too much attention to her
and as all is served she suddenly gets up, stands infront of the table, gives
the couple sitting opposite of us an evil glare, lets out a yell and pulls the
entire table cloth with all what is on the table to the floor. my wife jumps
up and takes her straight out. the waitress rushes by, the whole place is
watching, i pay and leave. though this was really embarrassing, i was more
shocked than embarrassed, so much so, that we just ended up laughing outside.
well the whole place was a bit of the artificial stiff upper lip type.
basically, if kids don't like a place or don't like the people you're with
and you have to keep up appearances they won't go along with it, that's it.
so they have you at their will where you're most vulnerable. in public places,
the best way to deal with this is, in my experience, (i) not to bother with
keeping up appearances and (ii) ignore the children when they want to make a
display of themselves - they'll soon realise that their parents are not too
impressed by them misbehaving.
as regards misbehaviour and discipline at home, this is a different matter.
whilst we are divorced, i do get a say in the raising of the children and am
often left with the task of being "nasty dad". my method, when the children
really misbehave (like giving their mother hell!!), is to give them a job to do;
saying "sorry" simply won't do when they have gone over the top. last time this
happened, they had all been visiting at my place. i always have tons of
newspapers lying about, so the job for them was sorting and ordering the
papers. i make sure they understand what needs to be done, and am very strict
about it, leaving no doubt to them that i am serious. i let them concentrate
on their task (they usually expect "worse" when its time for punishment) and
when the job is done i "inspect" and compliment them on the results. that
"useful job for punishment" method has shown good results - its for punishment,
its useful at the same time and they are only "off the hook" when the task is
done properly and when dad is again happy with them. its tough to be strict but
i do much prefer this method to the corporal punishment which i was in for as
a child, when being disrespectful to mother.
regards,
andreas.
|
| 740.6 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | There and back to see how far it is | Mon May 09 1994 18:02 | 12 |
| Re .5 ....
The most effective form of punishment must be "logical consequences".
The logical consequences of pulling the table cloth and china etc on
the floor is to pick it up ... and the punishment must be immediate to
be effective. Punishements unrelated to the offense are in the end,
long term ineffective ...
Which is probably one reason why prisons are full of repeat offenders.
Stuart
|
| 740.7 | not a repeat offender, no sir | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | dad pays;it pays to be dad | Mon May 09 1994 18:48 | 21 |
|
.6> The most effective form of punishment must be "logical consequences".
ah yes, but give punishment where punishment is due.
in that comical scene described in .5, the parents really didn't take any
notice of the child - she didn't feel comfortable in there, and neither did
the parents for that matter!
besides, in that situation, where the child felt uncomfortable and the parents
didn't either, i certainly wouldn't go and humiliate her in front of everyone
for just getting the message across in her way.
georgina is now nine, whilst she has calmed down alot she is still that
independent minded unbroken little rebel - at her age now, we settle our
disputes with loud and lengthy conversations, to her, her dad's and everyone
elses amusement, i might add.
regards,
andreas.
|
| 740.8 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | There and back to see how far it is | Mon May 09 1994 19:15 | 10 |
| re .7 ...
I understand what you are saying ... but the point is that some form
of punishment was appropriate (even if the place was as stuffy as
a starched white shirt! I know the kind of place ... I lived in
England for many many years). It all boils down to acceptable and
unacceptable behaviour ... if they cannot behave like that in one
restaurant they can't in another.
Stuart
|
| 740.9 | Tough Love? Maybe not too soon | CUPMK::STEINHART | | Tue May 10 1994 00:35 | 90 |
| Well, I've read and given all responses a lot of thought. I'll respond
to some of the points made.
I am not disrespecting Ilona when I "call her on the carpet" for
disrespect (as I have defined it). I believe that children need
structure and certainty. She IS a child. I AM her parent. That's the
way it is. I have told her, and she understands, that I want her to
be proud of herself. Children can't be proud of themselves when their
ground is mushy. They need a firm foundation or else they flounder. I
believe that this pride will carry her through many difficulties, not
least of all her own tempestuous nature, and carry her through to
adulthood. I have never called her a bad girl or other negative
labels. I tell her that I won't stand for bad behavior, that she
can and must improve her attitude, and that she can calm herself down
when she gets violently angry.
I would be lying if I told her that her defiance hurts me. It doesn't
hurt me. It pisses me off and it makes me feel disappointed in her.
So that's what she understands. I don't playact to protect her
feelings. Most of all, she knows that both defiance and attacking me
to cause injury are not acceptable. I will not stand for it. I'm not
doing her any favors by permitting her to perpetuate such bad behavior,
and the causational rotten attitude.
I do not humiliate her. I hold her responsible for her actions and for
controlling her behavior. I am helping her learn how to have a
positive, cooperative attitude, how to respect herself by respecting me
(and others including her babysitter), and how to get control of
herself. Only one recent incident occured in public, at a restaurant,
and I took her to a lightly travelled stairwell to discipline her. I
didn't say anything before removing her from her high chair, and on
returning I helped her order another fruit juice and showed her I was
happy and proud. All other incidents have occured when nobody else was
around.
This is the way life works, and I don't do her any favors by turning
defiance into a game, or ignoring it. As an adult, I don't have the
leeway to defy police, my management, or other authority figures in my
life. They won't turn it into a joke or ignore it. Neither can I get
away with treating my own parents disrespectfully. (I take the Ten
Commandmants seriously.) I don't think there is one set of rules for
adulthood, and another set of non-rules for kids. Too bad, life
doesn't work that way.
She is a highly intelligent, highly aware, and very competent girl.
She needs me to help her channel her energy and strength in
constructive ways. Without such self-control she could be a horrid
brat. We all know what they are like. Our hardest adversary in life
is our inner self. (And Jacob wrestled until dawn...) We gain pride
by inner mastery and appropriate behavior.
I believe that I would be failing her by not expecting better of her,
and by not teaching her how to master herself. I humored her for many
months, not realizing that she's no longer a toddler and is fully
capable of remembering behavioral expectations and following them.
It reached the point of non-stop whining, attacking me with her
fingernails, and throwing furniture. This does not make for a happy
childhood.
Sure she's a child, and will slip up. I'm don't discipline for mistakes,
for she has enough inner shame. I don't discipline for
youthful high spirits, but reign them in only when necessary. But
deliberate disobediance of major rules and willful defiance are not
within the bounds of the acceptable, nor is physically attacking me or
throwing furniture.
It is precisely BECAUSE I respect her that I won't take this guff. I
believe in her, and I know she is loving, intelligent, kind, generous,
observant of details, and has an excellent memory and sense of humor.
This in addition to her physical strength and coordination. She knows
I expect and demand her best, and we both know that she has tremendous
capacity for growth throughout her childhood. I want to make darn sure
she realizes all that she can be. She knows the goal is for her to be
a young lady not a little monster. She has a great spirit, capable
of major achievements, but she won't be able to do anything significant
if she can't control herself. I believe that she will learn to respect
herself by respecting her parents and teachers.
I'll reconsider demanding apology, as this can be hollow. Maybe it
would make more sense to have her do a useful job instead. But I will
say that her apologies do seem heartfelt. Then again, she's one heck
of an actress. :-)
I'd rather get this problem licked now than wait until she's a bratty,
domineering five-year-old, or a troubled teen. I hope we
never get to the point of Tough Love. Or maybe I'm starting it now
while she's young and before she can cause much harm to herself or
anyone else.
Laura
|
| 740.10 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | There and back to see how far it is | Tue May 10 1994 13:23 | 47 |
| You are a human ... she is a human ... Put yourself in her shoes ...
How would you feel being treated as you are treating her ? Whether
you are her parent or not is not at issue. There are ways of defining
what is appropriate and what is n ot ... but it should be done from the
other person's context ... whether adult or child.
When I used the word "hurt", I meant any number of feelings ... some
of which you mentioned. (And by the way ... being being angry about
her behaviour, being disappointed in her behaviour IS a hurt to you ...
otherwise you wouldn't react! It's a matter of how yo define the
words.)
No one suggested that you allow this kind of behaviour, but rather,
find some other way to deal with it that gives the child less of
the attention she seems to be demanding, and makes her want to change
her behaviour for reasons other than the attention she is getting.
Even the incident you describe in the restaurant, she gets mummy's
100% undivided attention, and another juice to boot.
No, you don't have the leeway to defy authority, and neither does she,
but at the same time you cannot put an adult's head on a child's
shoulders. I respect the authority of the police because I respect
society ... not because I necessarily respect the policeman and the
power he wields. But at the same time I respect the fact that with
answers a policeman might consider disrespectful, he is in a position
where he can misunderstand the situation and use his authority in
manners that weren't necessarily the intent of the laws involved.
As is so often said ... respect is earned and then given freely ...
it is not something to be demanded, even from children.
There are reasons for a child's misbehaviour, and I honestly don't
believe that respect as you are describing is what a child is
refuting in these situations.
My parents brought me up demanding respect ... I was
fearful of them ... and yes I respected them out of fear as a child.
Now, as an adult, I respect them freely as people, even though I
feel that my siblings and I were treated very poorly in some ways.
They did their best with the knowledge they had. I will not have
my children fearful of me ... but I will still hold their respect.
However, we all have our own standards and methods ... I am not
convinced that you will acchieve what you want from your child, but
time will tell.
Stuart
|
| 740.11 | | CUPMK::STEINHART | | Tue May 10 1994 13:59 | 35 |
| Stuart, I too was brought up with a measure of fear. They reinforced
it with both real and threatened corporal punishment. My parents
showed little empathy for my feelings or concerns. They didn't modify
their methods as I grew and actually seemed hostile as I entered
adolescence.
I hardly think that this kind of intimidation compares with the
childrearing methods I use.
Further, I really doubt I'll use the exact same methods on a teenager
as on a preschooler. That's just stupid and rigid. At both ages,
children need to know our expectations and standards, that much is the
same.
I think that for many of us, this topic hits a hot button because of
our own childhood memories. But I don't think the solution is to relax
our standards and behavioral expectations. That's why so many kids
today are rude to their parents. (I've heard kids CURSE them with
little response.) That's why so many kids act badly in restaurants
with no parental correction. And so forth, on to kids who
self-destruct as teenagers.
In the short term, it is easier and more pleasant to let kids do what
they want. But this temporary peace is purchased at the cost of
long-term misery for all.
We say respect must be earned, and this is true for adults. But how
can a youngster have any standard to judge? WE know we are utterly
reliable, good providers, compassionate, and generous. They can't
possibly evaluate us to make such a decision. We earn respect from our
children by consistency, fairness, and predictability. We earn respect
by teaching them to behave well, praising when they do, and firmly
correcting them when they don't. What's the alternative?
Laura
|
| 740.12 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | There and back to see how far it is | Tue May 10 1994 14:31 | 60 |
| Laura,
You are right, your childrearing is different in some respects, but
I am still very concerned that you are not addressing the problem that
is at the root of the misbehavour ... which from your description
sounds like a demand for attention... Remember that when kids want
'strokes', they will attempt to get it in whatever way it comes ...
either as negative or positive strokes. And your child is getting
those strokes big-time ... personal with mummy all by herself!
The kind of parenting we use with our youngest and our eldest is
not very different at all ... the same methods, the same standards,
the same expectations ... just based on the age of the child. We
don't have to change our methods or standards. Kids at whatever
age are people, and all people should behave and be treated in a
consistent manner.
You seem to indicate that kids today are worse than kids of our
generation ... I think you may be surprised to learn that kids
behaviour has not really changed that much ... If I misbehaved, I
got a swat across the pants big time, if I swore, my mouth was washed
out with soap ... so IF I was going to misbehave, it was not going
to be near my parents!!! Actually, kids behaviour today is decidedly
better than it was just a few years ago.
I think that if you looked at the behaviour of the children whose
parents are noting in here, espousing the parenting techniques I have,
that you will find well above average behaved kids... Everytime I
meet my children's friends parents, we are always complimented on the
behaviour of our children.
There are 3 methods of parenting ... Control ... Laissez faire and
Active. Control at its worst was like our parents ... Laissez faire
(let be) was without limits and we see examples all over the place
all the time of this kind of behaviour. Active parenting is what
I work with ... it requires that parents set limits, and consistently
enforce them ... Active parenting children are generally well behaved
and well adjusted. The success is far better.
I really would recommend getting the book PET (Parent Effectiveness
Training) from the library ... or even going to a PET course (which are
very popular in most areas).
The other great thing about Active Parenting is that it is FAR easier
on the nerves than control parenting! And from what you've described,
a lot of what you are doing ... from the simple statements "I am the
BOSS ... I am the parent ... You are the child ... is control
parenting. Control parenting usually results in a LOT of rebellion.
Maybe I am misreading what you've written ...
Please understand that I am not trying to get at you for parenting
the way you see fit ... but I just feel that by posting your note here,
you were looking for reaction and validation ... and I'm sorry, I just
can't validate the style you appear to have chosen for the reasons I
have mentioned.
Stuart
|
| 740.13 | "active" sounds like the ticket | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | dad pays;it pays to be dad | Tue May 10 1994 15:14 | 21 |
|
re. misbehaviour in public
.12> The other great thing about Active Parenting is that it is FAR easier
.12> on the nerves than control parenting!
maybe that's it! :-) before the divorce, when both parents were still together,
we used to get most bad behaviour from our children in public - i was more
into "control" at that time and my wife seemed limitless on the "laissez-faire".
no wonder the children used the disparate views of their parents to cause havoc.
since a few years, my ex wife's and my approaches to the children have
converged - with best results as regards the children behaviour. nowadays,
we are primarily concerned that a day out together is of pleasure to all of
us and these days its more like dad embarrassing the kids, as opposed to
vice versa, like when picking up the bill and fainting on the spot in that
expensive restaurant (this actually happened in euro-disney!!!)
regards,
andreas.
|
| 740.14 | | CUPMK::STEINHART | | Tue May 10 1994 16:07 | 23 |
| Stuart, when I'm with her, my daughter has me all to herself - no
siblings, no spouse, no pets, no TV or books for Mom (until bedtime),
not even the radio or tape player in the car. I'm talking HOURS of
attention, not just minutes. Most nights I don't even answer the phone
between 6 and 8 p.m. We have lengthy conversations, read books, hug,
cuddle, you name it. Sometimes I must talk on the phone or take a
moment to do something just for me, and I do have the full burden of
housework, breadwinning, and a lot on my mind, but that's nothing
compared to the parents I've seen who completely tune out their kids.
Further, other people including her babysitter and strangers consider
her very well behaved. AND happy and normal.
Her rebellious behavior sharply escalated this year, but since I've
gotten tougher about it, it has improved. Most of it occurs when we
are alone together at home or in the car.
If I get a chance, I'll look at the PET book in the bookstore. In
the meantime, I'm much too defensive now and I need to cool off and
take a break from this conversation.
Regards,
Laura
|
| 740.15 | | WMOIS::LACLAIR | | Wed May 11 1994 13:55 | 17 |
| Any suggestions on how to discipline your child(ren) in proxy? My
ex-wife is having some problems with my oldest boy (7) cursing her
and generally showing little or no respect for her at all. He has
never exhibited this type of behavior towards me, nor has he towards
her while I'm present. I suspect it has something to do with the
divorce and circumstances therein.
What can or should I do? Will talking to him after-the-fact be
effective? Should I suggest counseling for him? For her? For all
of us?
Jeff
ps - My apologies in advance for digressing a bit from the main topic
but it's a great string with some excellent input so far.
|
| 740.16 | | DELNI::DISMUKE | | Wed May 11 1994 14:36 | 12 |
| You should definately talk with him. Letting him know that you are
still part of the process of discipline/training. He is probably
feeling like he's the man of the house now and he is going to exert his
"manly behavior" in proving it. He needs to know that this is
unacceptable and that you are going to be there as dad always. Talking
with him after the fact is also a good idea. He's not so little that
he won't remember what he did. He needs to know that he must respect
and obey his mother as he did before. Some things shouldn't have to
change because your circumstances changed.
-sjd
|
| 740.17 | re .15 | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | dad pays;it pays to be dad | Wed May 11 1994 18:24 | 35 |
|
hello jeff,
i am glad you're bringing the situation of divorced parents up - what you
describe sounds very familiar, there must be a few divorcees relating to that.
in our case, things got really out of hand when my ex wife had a new live-in SO.
my eldest daughter really plaid up and wouldn't listen neither to her mother
nor to her mothers friend. we adults then got together over this one and the
children knew we wouldn't stand for misbehaviour. i live in switzerland and
the children in britain, so i only get to see them once a month, but at the
time i rang in every day to talk to the children and to make sure they were
keeping to the routine which their mother had set up (they had been really
playing up when it came to bed-time). it did help alot, all of us adults being
"on the same side".
strangely enough, since that time, my ex wife and i have gotten alot closer
over our mutual concern for the children - these days, what mum or dad says is
pretty much the same (which is quite an achievement compared to how we used to
be!) and that has made a difference with regards to the childrens behaviour.
the children accept that their parents are divorced and they also realise that
their parents are unanimous when it comes to them.
if your ex wife is suffering from your oldest son really being out of control,
maybe you discuss this problem with her and work something out together (if
the routine has broken down), and then together, discuss it with the children.
it can only be of benefit.
as i see it, punishment doesn't make an awful lot of sense, when those closest
to the children aren't together on it. also, there is no value in frequent
punishment.
regards,
andreas.
|
| 740.18 | This ain't easy, is it? | MR4DEC::JONES | | Thu May 12 1994 07:10 | 121 |
| I find both Laura and Jeff's questions and comments interesting.
I am a single father of three very active children. Although they are
older, I have worked through all of the stuff mentioned so far.
I have no right answers, only a lot of experiences in behaviour
watching and attempts at trying to find ways to coordinate acceptable
behaviour among children who are at different places in their lives,
their ages, their orientation and their reaction to a spousal situation
that aggravated much of the foundational roots of what exhibited itself
in attempts at attention.
I haven't heard anyone mention the potential of classifying the child,
in question, as to their orientation. My three are all quite
different. Although they are normal-to-bright(don't we all hope for
the bright part), they learn, listen and react differently.
My 13/14 year old wants facts, will reason with me and does not want to
be compared to some other kid. If he HAS to do something, then he
wants to know why and if he can understand that, then, even though
reluctant, he will do it. My 10 year old is a middle child and has
always struggled with what is appropriate behaviour for attracting
attention. Because he was often singled out for negative attention(at
its worst) by my ex, his habits, word seletion and actions are the most
unacceptable.(They have rubbed off on the other two over the
years).However, he learns differently and he is also the most sensitive
and had the greatest value for fairness. Again, he will listen to
reason, but thrives on love and understanding, time spent hugging and
listening to his feelings.
Lastly, my daughter is a real lover. She hears with her heart and
recognition. It doesn't have to be words, it is with deeds and just
being there. It doesn't have to be even directed in her direction.
However, doing things, allowing her to have her space, but knowing that
you approve an "feel" in tune with her perception is enough to
encourage her to behave and flourish.
.....that brings me to another thought with Laura. You spend a lot of
undivided attention with your daughter. Perhaps that is too much for
both of you. What I mean is that she needs space to test and find out
how she gets along with your "presence", rather than you. That could
be too intense for her and when she gets in the habit of "your time"
being always undivided for her, if she feels that slipping away or if
she wants to validate that in public by throwing a fit or whatever to
see if you will respond...in any way, but focused on her, she achieves
her goal. I find, with mine that if they realize(and again, with
three, they know my schedule and know that none can get all the
attention anyway), that I expect them to have a life of their own. I
encourage that, have tried to find things they are good at and
encourage them to work at it....even if it is to play in their room
with some toy they begged to buy. I know that can spoil them on the
entertainment with toys and games and etc., but a happy medium is the
goal of getting them to realize what level of attention they can expect
and that throwing fits or acting up really has to be balanced with
living.
Another thought was that regardless of which route you take, i.e.
control or active, these guys are still kids. They are going to test,
try, fail, etc. Let some time work its way into your reaction. It not
only helps you think of another approach or reaction to consider, but
it also may be that constant attention should be interleaved with
reenforcement that they should be somewhat creative in finding another
solution to having you do everything with and for them. What I mean
here is that if you spend all your time reacting, reenforcing,
cataloging and grading their behaviour, they then expect it. If you
set out a loosely defined schedule for the day and they know your goals
are to accomplish certaing things...even things that will later
contribute to your mutual enjoyment-say shopping or making cookies, or
cleaning up, or whatever may tie up your time, then you can point to
something other than your particular law or way of doing things as an
adult that can be rendered into one of the models of learning I pointed
out above. For example, let's say your child is a logical and factual
learner/listener. If you absolutely have to do the laundry, go to the
store and rake the yard, you could point out that those three things
have to be done this day/weekend. Other things can be worked around
and choices to play along or by him/herself while you do that is
acceptable. Once those things are done, then the more fun things will
be attempted. Even the choice(which, as they get older you will need
to find a way to transfer to them as their job/task....ha! ha!) should
be offered for them to help(that will last 3-15min max...but is
exciting if they do try). If, predictably, they decline, then you have
all the openings in the world to remind them, when they act up or try
to draw attention to get you to stop and play or pay attention to
them...in the store, in the yard, in the laundry room...that these
things were agreed upon, have to be done so you can eat, or have
clothes to go somewhere, or whatever. If they learn through feelings
or another way, then similar, but different phraseology can be
selected. The bottom line is that you began to encourage them to have
a life of their own, in your presence, but trusting you and opening up
chances for you to observe and reenforce good behaviour(especially
after you have completed one of these tasks and they have been good
without your undivided attention).
I think you will find that much of what you are going through now will
not be remembered incedent by incendt later by them. What will become
a burden later, is the result of your pattern. If all your time and
attention is focused on her/him while they are with you, later, when
you either have someone else in your life or other little people, the
insertion of another and the competition will be tough. In addition,
as they get older, if they have not learned to somewhat find how to
entertain themselves, they will not be as free to branch out with
friends without supervision and suggestions.
I like the book on The Power of a Parent's Words. It kind of does some
really interesting breakdowns on the different kinds of ways kids learn
and some of the ideas on how to rephrase some approaches depending on
which way they learn. I don't think there is a cookbook for any right
way, but somewhat of a ying and yang around the fact they are learning,
they do have different styles of listening and absorbing and putting
some time between your desires for excellence and imposing your
suggested course correction has to be employed.
It is a life's work, no doubt about it. I love it, but can tell you
that analytical breakdowns on what has to work doesn't work for me.
It is a day by day thing. It even helps to do a Journal for a few
months so you can look back and see progress for both Dad/Mom and the
child(ren).
Good luck
Jim
|
| 740.19 | Standing united really helps!! | DELNI::DISMUKE | | Thu May 12 1994 08:47 | 16 |
| Andreas, your suggestions of "sticking together" work for all parental
concerns. My older sister is having extreme difficulties with her
teenage daughter because of the differences in her "style" and her
husband's "style". There is no doubt they both love their kids, but
they just didn't agree on their upbringing. After 18 years of marriage
and 2 kids (15 and 13) they have sought the appropriate counseling and
finally have a working system. This after their oldest was placed in
foster care (at her request) for a 30 day "cooling off" periond. So
far things are going very nicely now that they have a written code of
what actions receive what consequences.
Now if only my younger sister will see how much her lifestyle is
resembling my older sister's...
-sjd
|
| 740.20 | Different people have "different rules" | KOALA::SYSTEM | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Thu May 12 1994 17:29 | 34 |
| RE .15 .... I have a similar problem - although my kids are forever
giving their dad an outrageously hard time, about an assortment of
different things. When they're with me, it's not even an issue. For
example, every Saturday, they have Karate lessons. They LOVE it when
they go. Every Friday night/Saturday morning they give Dad a hard time
or get a belly ache, or break a finger nail or something, to get out
of it. Occasionally I'll take them over Friday night. When I get
them, I make sure we have all their gear, and they might say "But we
don't want to go!", to which I just reply "You ARE going, and that's
the end of it!" And it is. When they tell Dad they don't want to go,
he tries to "hear them out" and they just prey on that.
I'm not FORCING them to take karate lessons - they LOVE it when they
get there, and have a blast. I'm just making them move their butts and
GET there.
So, as I always try to explain to Dad when he complains that they don't
listen to him, and do to me ... it's all a matter of what they can get
away with. It's that simple. Can't chew gum in school - they don't.
They do at home. There are different rules in different places, and
unless you're willing to let your rules known, and then reinforce them,
you can't expect the children to live by them. Bedtime at Dad's is
7:30 - 8:00. Bedtime at Mom's is 8:00 - 8:30. And they KNOW the
difference, and they balk if it's changed. If I try to put them to bed
at 7:30, it's a big deal. Not so at Dad's. They know the rules they
know what they can get away with.
When you were a kid, think about it .... when I was young, and Dad said
NO!, he meant No, and you never bothered him after he made up his mind.
When Mom said No, it meant she didn't want you to, but if you bug her
long enough, she'll say Yes! So you see the rules were different. And
that was even long before they were divorced.
Stick to your guns ....
|
| 740.21 | Include Choice | PENUTS::STEVENS | | Fri May 27 1994 17:30 | 27 |
| Sometimes giving your children a choice prior to disciplinary action
can be effective and less stressful. Here's an example that has
worked for me...
My son can get very defiant when he is tired, typically around bed
time. He is 5 1/2 years old. If he doesn't want to go to bed he
just lays on the floor and says, "I'm not going!". My response to him
is: "Well I could just pick you up and put you in bed kicking and
fussing and you get no story OR we could walk up together and I could
lay with you for a little while and read a story. Which way do you
want to do it?"
He rarely chooses the kicking and fussing because he knows I will
follow through on the plopping him in bed and leaving. Sometimes
he will choose the fussing and this just means he is tired. I put
him to bed fussing and he usually falls asleep fairly fast.
In any event, control becomes less of an issue and there are fewer
conflicts and stress.
Whatever your style, I believe giving choices is a good addition to
your list of techniques. It may even help your child be a better decision
maker later on in life, perhaps even in a leadership capacity.
Regards,
Dave ( From the Dad's view )
|
| 740.22 | | KOALA::SYSTEM | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Fri May 27 1994 17:46 | 8 |
|
Yup - I do the same thing as Dave .... "you're going to bed - either we
can do this peacefully, or not, it's up to you"
Works wonders, and I think it puts the emphasis on the problem being
unacceptable behavior and not "Mom's/Dad's a big meany!"
|
| 740.23 | We do this, too | ASIC::MYERS | | Tue May 31 1994 09:50 | 9 |
| Gotta say that it even works for my 2 yr old (within reason).
I'm going to count to 3 (which she counts for me) and you either get
into your car seat by yourself or I will do it for you. 99% of the
time as soon as she says 3 she's on her way up and into the seat.
However, she does know that mom will do it if she doesn't. Following
through is extremely important.
Susan
|