Conference moira::parenting

    Wow, not sure.  My grandmother who "makes up stories" last Saturday
    night said the same thing to my mother in law.  Now of course, her
    story is just not true as she doesn't have a car, drive or anything.
    
    But this situation is difficult.  Really, you had no business to tell
    the women what you thought however, I *really* believe that what you
    say is true.  I am sure 99.9% of the parents will agree with you but to
    tell her what you thought?  Hmm.. just don't know.  
    
    It will be interesting to see what the Children's office says.  I agree
    with you that it *is* wrong and awful but I just can't say that you 
    had the right to tell her...
    
    I don't know, it will be interesting to see people's reaction to this
    one!
    
    cj
    
   

    Maybe I didn't have the right as another parent, but as a taxpayer who
    would foot the bill to recover her stolen child, do I then have a
    right?  This is what tore me apart.  I was appalled as a parent, but
    angry as a taxpayer who would pay dearly if her child was taken.

Maybe I am a little paranoid these days, but you hear so many
scarry things about kids being abducted (also getting heat stroke).
The other day on TV they interviewed some parents who are still
waiting to hear about their son who was abducted ~2 years ago.
They were both watching him at a playground.  One look at the swing
and he waw happily swinging, the next look, he was gone and the
swing was still swinging.  My brother has also witnessed in 
abduction.  Too close to home for me.

So I think you did the right thing.  It wasn't that you were 
trying to "butt in" on her business so much as being concerned
for a couple of kids who may have been vunerable.

Just my opinion.

    You did the right thing.  I think that as long as you stayed calm that
    you had every right to voice your concern to this mother.  I hate to
    hear stories like this...It's really sad that some people dont'
    understand (or care?) how easy it is to loose your children.
    
    

    I think you did the right thing, too.  
    
    It's also not just a question of the kids being abducted, but what
    about if another car had hit that car or the 3 yr old decided they
    wanted to "drive" like mommy and accidently put the car in gear?
    
    If it's too much of a hassle bringing your kids into the store with you
    then you need to make other arrangements (easier said than done
    sometimes, I know)

    I'm sure I'll be in the minority here, but I think calling DSS was a
    little drastic.  You don't know that she couldn't see the kids, though
    I doubt she could get there in time should a stranger try to take them.
    I just have a fundamental problem with the first response being a call
    to DSS. And as far as your tax dollars paying to help find an abducted
    child, that complaint to me is a red herring since it's also costing
    your tax dollars to have DSS do an investigation, something which I'm
    not so sure they can always do adequately given the case load.
    
    

    I would have called the police.  Let her explain to the cop that it
    isn't the police department's *&*()$ business!
    I applaud your ability to withstand that kind of verbal abuse, simply
    because you were CONCERNED (imagine that, a perfect stranger concerned
    about someone else's children?  Who would have thought...)
    IMHO, the welfare of children who are in obviously dangerous situations
    should be everyone's business.  
    
    Sarah

       I agree with .7, you should have called the police....
    
       Some years ago, I can't remember exactly a friend of my sisters was
    babysitting her brother who was about 3 years old. He fell asleep in
    the car so her and her boyfriend (they were teenagers) decided to let
    him sleep and go into the store.
    
       They came out of the store and a man was trying to get the boy
    to unlock the door. He had awaken apparently and the man was trying
    to lure him out of the car. They ran to the car and the man took
    off. If that little boy had unlocked that door, or they had come
    out just a few minutes later that man would have abducted that child.
    I can't stand when parents think that it's okay to run into a store and
    leave young children alone. Like it's been said it only takes a short
    time to abduct a small child.
    
       There's a lot of *&()$ perverts out there...!!!!
    
       Rose 

    
    I think I might have spoken up, but I wouldn't have called DSS - mostly
    because there seems to be more than a few times when they take a child
    away before it can really be checked out, and you don't really know the
    whole situation - and being "taken away" is pretty traumatic to a
    child!
    
    Of course if she wasn't dead wrong, she probably would've responded
    kinder.
    
    And I hope I'm not in the same parking lot as "someone helpful" if I
    need to run into 7-11 for a second!  I have 3 kids, by myself, my
    nearest family is about an hour away - there just aren't a lot of
    alternatives!  If the baby's asleep, or I'm only running in for milk or
    something, they all stay, locked, in the car.  9, 6 and 7mos.  But they
    are within eyeshot.  Should I be reported to DSS?
    
    

>    I can't stand when parents think that it's okay to run into a store and
>    leave young children alone. Like it's been said it only takes a short
>    time to abduct a small child.
>    
>       There's a lot of *&()$ perverts out there...!!!!

Well, leaving children alone in a car occurs MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS UPON
MILLION times per year in the USA, Canada and Europe wtihout incident.  I
would think that if you were to look at the number of incidents per number
of "leavings", you'd find it safer than actually being on the road in the
first place.

There are instances when I have left my child alone in a car long enough
to run into a store to a) pay for gas, b) buy a jug of milk, or c) get
money from a bank machine.  The car is locked, the child is usually asleep,
or at least totally buckled into a car seat.  I size up the time / situation
quite carefully before doing it though.

There are millions of far more dangerous situations that we put our children
in in a year than this, IMO.  Now that is not to say that I'd rather leave
my child in a car than get them out ... but risks must be weighed.

What DOES bother me is people who leave kids in cars with ENGINES RUNNING,
Hand brakes off, and otherwise in a situation where the car is capable of
being moved by the child.  Now THAT SCARES ME!!!!

Stuart

    I thought the base noter said she was in a mall type situation?  I
    better go back and read that entry again.  Running into the store to
    pay for gas takes 2 seconds....5 minutes is a long time to be away
    from your kids...

    Well, the basenoter seemed pretty adamant that it only takes 6 seconds
    to grab our kids, and anything takes longer than 6 seconds!
    
    And even if it's 5 minutes - do you mean to say it doesn't take 5 mins
    in the basement, to do the laundry?  Or do the kids come too?  Or do
    they run out side before you, with you yelling behind "I'll be out in a
    minute!" ?  You can be afraid of every place, and there is danger in
    every place.  As Stuart pointed out, we must weigh the risks.  Perhaps
    there's more danger of being run over as we're carrying our children
    into the store, then leaving them in the car for a few minutes??  If
    you want to get SCARED about how easy a kid can get hurt in a "safe"
    situation, watch Rescue 911 sometime.  Most of those incidents are "in
    the safety of their own home".  Just being kids.
    
    Phew - apparantly this is a little "hotter" with me than I realized.
    Sorry....!
    
    Patty
    
    

    I think if you re-read the basenote, you'll see it a bit differently.
    She looked into the nearest stores, and saw no one. She waited
    approximately 5 minutes.  To me, that's very scary.  If I were to look
    into the nearest all-glass ATM and see an adult watching me VERY
    CLOSELY as I looked into their car, I would feel better about it.  But
    to NOT see an adult within eye sight is a totally different situation,
    to me anyway.  If you saw a wallet left on the front seat of a car,
    you'd think the person was asking for trouble.  But it's OK to leave a 
    child in the car?  The logic escapes me...
    Again, if you can see and REACT (important point - can you run that
    fast? Are you strong enough to overpower someone who is taking your
    child? Can you stop the car as it is pulling away?) immediately to any 
    trouble, then that's a different case.  The basenote didn't sound like
    that was possible.
    Sarah

        From what I gather about the basenoter situation, the car door
    was unlocked. She waited for at least five minutes and didn't see
    anyone around that could have looked like they were watching the car.
    The children were 1 and 3 years of age. That's much different than
    some of the other situations. Like 7 and 9 years old. The 1 year old
    was crying.
    
         Opon re-reading the basenoter and the rest of the replies, I would
    say each situation has to be weighed for itself. If the parent really
    is taking precautions and has informed the children to toot the horn
    immediately if approached, or to not unlock the door if someone 
    approaches , I could consider that as a possibility. But, to
    leave a 1 year old and a 3 year old in an unlocked car and the
    parent is gone for more than 5 minutes. That doesn't sound like a
    very responsible parent. 
    
        I'm sure there are thousands of insidents where nothing has
    happened and there are lots of children that are hurt even when
    watched. But, The incident the basenoter is talking about doesn't
    sound good at all. Any thing could have happened to those children.
    It doesn't sound to me like the mother was watching to me. The
    basenoter was near her car watching the children for 5 minutes and
    no one ran to the car to inquire why. The basenoter could have 
    been a kidnapper. 5 minutes would have been enough time to drive
    away with both children.
    
       Another incident comes to my mind while I'm thinking of this.
    My brothers girl friend ran into CVS to get a few things. She left
    her two daughters in the car, she also left her cigarettes and
    lighter. Well, one of the girls was seriously burned when she tried
    to light a cigarette to be like mommy.
    
       I guess knowing two incidents in my life makes me leary of leaving
    children in cars. I suppose 2 incidents only and I'm 43 years old isn't
    bad.
    
    
        Rose

    What I'm trying to get across is my reaction to the generality being
    conveyed by many in here of "Under no circumstances ..."  Each
    individual situation must be weighed on its own merit.  
    
    The basenote describes a situation that I wouldn't do to my children and 
    from the account given certainly sounded negligent even to me.  What to
    do ?  Tough call ... police probably.  But it is certainly well known
    that scare tactics do not usually make people change their behaviour.
    
    The problem Rose describes of cigarettes in the car could have been
    at home or anywhere ... it was not a function of being alone in a car,
    but rather of being alone with inappropriate things and being bored.
    
    The bottom line has to be measured by each parent ...  After all, if
    kids came with manuals, we'd all be exactly the same.
    
    Stuart

    
.0> How would you have handled the same situation ?

i think you did a pretty brave thing there, telling the person that it was
irresponsible to leave such a young child unattended in the car. 

i might have done pretty much the same, ie. to get the message across in a 
polite, serious and unthreatening manner - the person needs to be made aware 
of the danger of leaving children unattended. personally, i wouldn't go to
the length of calling the authorities - the direct approach which you chose,
of telling people there and then, is probably most effective.


regards,
andreas.

    What I do in these situations: stay around, consider it my fate to keep
    an eye open for that time only. Watch, monitor, and don't judge ( not
    too much anyway ;-( ). Leave when mom comes back. Yes, I would have
    stayed too, and see if it was worthwhile to say something to the
    returning mom. 
    
    See yourself as the local guardian angel at that specific time and
    space. Oh yes, the word angel comes from messenger... If you feel
    it your task to give the message of safety, by all means do. I do too
    Just don't expect gratitude. People who act that way are not usually
    prone to gratitude. Keep on trying, and don't lose faith. Once in a
    while someone will learn.
    
    I feel you were right to act the way you did. You might just not be
    right expecting a favourable response.
    
    Let's keep trying to guard and improve the world - it's still worth it.
    Michel

If the parent was watching the car the whole time, why didn't she see
the basenoter keeping an eye on things?  I'd never leave my child
alone in the car, but if I did and saw someone standing nearby for
any length of time, I'd sure head back there pronto!  How could
the parent know if the basenoter was friend or foe? The fact that
the parent didn't come out makes me wonder whether she was actually 
watching at all. 

I think having a calm talk with the parent was certainly in line.
I'm curious what the DSS has to say.

Well, I don't know what I would have done that second, but sitting here with a 
chance to think...

I think you took an unnecessary risk talking with the mother directly.  There
are lots of crazies out there-- she could have hurt you-- in front of your
children.

I've heard too many horror stories concerning the DSS...  I'd call the police,
keeping my eye on her car the whole time, with my kids with me.  Then I'd wait
for the police to come, and let *them* talk to her.  No risk to me or my
children, and teaching her to be more careful...

    I noticed a "under 1 year old" (I'm not sure how old he was) alone in a
    car in Nashua, NH.  I waited 10 minutes, and when the parent/adult
    didn't come out, I ran back into Market Basket and asked the manager to
    call the police because there was a child left in a car.  When the
    police came, I asked a few questions regarding this.  The cop said
    under no circumstances was ANY child allowed to be left in the car and
    charges would be brought against the adult responsible.
    
    I suppose it's different in every area!  Something to think about
    before you do it.
    
    
    

    
    I'm not sure how I would act in the same situation - however, I
    do believe the basenoter did the right thing in talking with the parent
    concerned.
    
    I would never leave my child unattended in the car (or anywhere else in
    'public' space for that matter)  The memory of the abduction and
    subsequent murder of a 3 year old in 1993 by two other minors from outside a
    store in this is all too fresh.
    
    Like someone else pointed out, the parent may have stated the child was
    within her field of vision throughout, but apparently was not aware
    that the basenoter was watching over the children in the car.
    
    Jackie

    	I was always under the impression that it was not only 
    	dangerous to leave a child unattended in a car but, as 
    	.20 stated, also against the law.
    
    	Peggy

Hmmm, I believe the mom reacted the way she did because she was absolutely
wrong, and she knew it.  Definitely sounds like a defensive reaction.

I also think the basenoter's decision on call the notorious DSS when she got
home was a somewhat vengeful reaction to the abuse she'd received.  *I* think
the call to DSS was way over-kill.

I believe the basenoter did the right and caring thing by standing watch over
the children in the car.  I do believe I would have done the same thing.

I probably would have said something to the mom like, "I was just watching
over your babies.  You know there are some crazy folk out here who would
have taken advantage of 2 little ones in the car alone like this.  You take
care.  Bye, bye babies".  You know, something non-accusatorial, non-threatening
to the mom to allow her to save face, but also to get home the point that
leaving her precious ones in the car like that was dangerous!

    I had almost the same experience last week in Acton, Mass. I got out
    of my car at Idywilde Farms and noticed two kids (about 2 and
    4 years old) in a nice Volvo...sitting in the backseat, strapped in.
    No adult around. The store is not one where you can watch the car from
    a window. Then...this REALLY got me... THE CAR WAS RUNNING !  THE KEYS
    WERE IN THE IGNITION !. I stood there because I wanted to get a good
    look at the fool who did this. Sure enough, she comes bouncing out of
    the store after about 5 minutes, waving at the kids. I was shaking I 
    was so mad. I was on the verge of taking the license plate but I just
    took a deep breath and walked away. Five minutes does not sound like
    a long time but it is all relative. 

    re -1 Unbelievable! Some people are just plain stupid! Unfortunately,
    you can't protect these people from themsleves, and you can't protect 
    their children either! I really feel sad/sorry for the children but I
    feel helpless. 
    
    re .0 FWIW, I would have watched the kids as well until the mother came 
    back and said something to her. Probably something mild though like 
    "You know it's dangerous to leave your kids alone in the car. Next time
    you should take them with you." 
    
    I wouldn't have called the DSS.
    
    Karen

    .24 mentioned someone who left their car RUNNING.  That's amazing 
    to me.   My brother-in-law left HIS car running, while he stood 
    right by it, and used a pay-phone.  He also WATCHED someone get 
    into the car, and drive off with it.  Fortunately, the only valuables
    (besides the car!) were two new suits he had just purchased, sitting in
    the backseat.

    I'm glad you said something to the parent and that you called DSS.
    They're children and it is our job to protect them. 
    
    Thank God for people like you - I would have done the same thing
    however, you did it in a much more appropriate manner than perhaps I
    would have. Thanks....

    I find comments like this so incongruous ... What follows is not
    specifically directed at you .27, but rather a social commentary ...
    
    On the one hand people are so demanding we take responsibility 
    for our own actions and on the other there are so many that seem to
    want to take responsibility for not their own actions ...
    
    On the one hand people are demanding that government agencies keep
    their nose out of our own affairs and yet on the other that people
    should report incidents like this to government agencies, but then
    get hopping mad when these agencies investigate them ...
    
    On the one hand we say "take responsibility ourselves" and then give
    the responsibility to a governmental organization with outstanding
    powers ...
    
    
    Something seems really out of kilter here ...
    
    
    The more I think on this, the more I think the right approach, and teh
    neighbourly approach would be to simply say to the mother on her
    return to the car ... "You took so long, and I did worry about your
    children here all alone, so I stayed with them in case someone came
    and attempted to take your car or children."   I see no need for
    antagonistic words or actions.
    
    Stuart

    Sometimes such actions are seen as honest concern....

    Once, when my daughter was a baby in diapers, she filled her pants as
    I drove to the grocery store.  I was driving a 4 door sedan, but I
    still thought it would be awfully awkward to change her on the seat. 
    And there was a chill in the air, and a bit of a breeze.  Knowing that
    my trunk was empty and clean, I decided to use it like a changing
    table.  I opened the trunk, spread out a blanket, and laid her down. 
    As I was fishing in the diaper bag for the wet wipes a lady walked up
    to me.  Her expression was half timid and half concerned, and she asked
    me if everything was all right.  I explained what I was doing and
    thanked her for her concern.

    I can only imagine what she thought I was up to putting a baby in the
    trunk of a car!

    
    .28 says it all about society today.
    
    There was a case in the UK press recently about a child who was put on
    the "at-risk" list thanks to a really stupid blunder.
    
    The school noticed black marks on the child's legs and reported it to
    Social Services. The parents were informed that the child was now on
    the "at-risk" list and allowed to take the child home. The black marks
    came off in the bath!! The child's Wellington boots had her name in and
    she'd put them on before the ink was dry!!
    
    The parents are now fighting to get their child off the list.
    
    Sometimes society investigates too soon.
    
           seals 
    

.28:

>    The more I think on this, the more I think the right approach, and teh
>    neighbourly approach would be to simply say to the mother on her
>    return to the car ... "You took so long, and I did worry about your
>    children here all alone, so I stayed with them in case someone came
>    and attempted to take your car or children."   I see no need for
>    antagonistic words or actions.

You know, I like that a lot!

	-Neil

    re suggestion of .28:
    
    How would you know that this person walking up to the car
    was the parent of the kids in the car, and not the random
    kidnapper you fear?  If the car's not locked, you can't
    tell by possesion of a key.
    
    re whole topic:
    
    Anyone know the actual risk of kidnapping?  I'd like to 
    compare the risk of kidnapping for infants, toddlers and
    so on to other risks, like lightening strikes, strikes by
    meteorites and so on.  Anecdotes don't tell us much, and
    I suspect the emotional content means that any news of
    any such incident is broadcast widely.
    
    I suspect, for example, that murder of a child by a parent
    is much more common than the kidnapping by a passing stranger
    of a pre-teen child, but have no data.
    
    		-John Bishop

    IMHO:
    
    	I'm glad that there are caring folks out there who would do as 
    	the base-noter did: I applaud your efforts.  I think the risk of
    	losing a child to a "bad situation"(kidnapper, pervert, accident)
    	far outweighs any fear of involvment, embarassment (in being told
    	off by the parent), or explainations to the police/authorities.
    	You did what you felt was best - you weighed the situation - and
    	acted.  I hope I have the same heart if I ever need it.
    
    	Just my opinion,
    			Tina

    Tina, and whoever,
    
    Having had part of my family involved involuntarily with DSS over a
    misunderstanding and watching what they are going through in terms of
    heartache (child in foster home), expense (lawyers fees and payment for
    said foster care), and potential long-term damage to the child, I would
    avoid reporting anyone to DSS unless I saw visible evidence of severe
    neglect or abuse.  

As "ordinary" citizens you have a right to make the
judgement call about an individual situation such as
that outlined by the basenoter. From personal experience
over the last few years I know that this is not an
easy decision for anyone. However, in many cases the
scenario in .30 is the more likely type of "error" that
most folks hear about in the press. However, at least in
the U.S., people with certain job responsibilities are
considered "mandated reporters". Anyone who works in
a school or a hospital can be considered to fit this 
category. While a teacher, doctor, or a nurse would,
by contact with children, be the most likely reporters
of potential problems other employees may be 
specifically liable if they fail to report. The result
is that sometimes innocent people are involved in a
nightmare not so much because of one individuals 
suspicions but rather because of a "CYA" mentality. 

I have personally been involved in a case where 
the professionals erred the other way and I find that
to be even tougher.

It seems like some folks have experienced some bad situations due to
errors with DSS, so maybe a call to the police would be better.

You read of cases where people chose not to interfere and the child
suffers.  To me a toddler in a car alone is a bad situation.  A toddler
is so vulnerable to strangers, to hot weather, to playing with the 
brakes; my take is that parent used poor judgement.  Wouldn't the DSS 
intervene with parenting courses if this was a first offense?  I thought
taking the child away was a last ditch tactic, by both police and 
agencies.

    
        Every time I read this string as new things are added, I think
    about how it's so confusing so times how to deal with these situations.
    Especially when it comes to children. People do want to do what's right
    for the child , but how do you know sometimes what is right for the
    situation and the child? I'm sure a lot of excellent parents can make
    poor judgements, then there are really bad parents who do this stuff
    all the time and never get caught, or it's too late for the child.
    
        I think in .0 where the basenoter says one of the children
    was about 1 and the other about 3, waited for 5 minutes and no
    one even appeared to be watching. This is scarey. 3 year old are
    very curious, 1 year olds climb out of things. Something terrible
    could have happened to these children. But, then I think. What was
    the mothers reason for this.? Had she only intented to run in for
    a second? Was caught up in all kinds of hassles and all stressed
    out? This was just one bad judgement day? Maybe she's never done
    this before and after being confronted maybe think twice before she
    does it again. I certainly hope so. Maybe, in thinking that DSS
    may be a little drastic, but maybe not. Who knows? I think that
    in being there the person has to make the judgement. I don't know.
    I know if I was there I would have been really upset at seeing it.
    I don't know exactly what I would have said or done, but I know
    it would have upset me. 
    
         There was a situation I was in once and I kept tossing around
    calling DSS. I finally told a relative of the children. It turned out
    I was right about abuse. In fact the step-father is in jail now for
    sexually abusing the daughter  age 9 to 11. Where did it all go?
    The ex husband has the kids, the stepfather in jail, the mother hates
    my guts for being a big mouth. I only repeated what she told me and
    told the individual that I felt I should do something but didn't know
    what. I was afraid to call DSS because I thought of the consequences if
    I was wrong and it went overboard and made too much trouble. Well,
    it made trouble all right. For the abuser and me. He got jail, I made
    an enemy (the mother of the abused children). 
    
        The police and DSS made the decision and then the judge finalized
    that the ex husband should keep the children because they all felt the
    children were in danger of being mis-treated further by the mother. 
    
       I don't know why I told this story, it's more extreme than a 
    couple of childrn left alone in a car. But, if a mother doesn't worry
    about children in a car alone, what else isn't she worried about? Or,
    was it just a one time poor judgement on her part and she's really
    a wonderful mother?
    
        Rose

seems to me, the more this string develops, the firmer i become in my 
conviction that .28, with calling for the "neighbourly approach", has pretty 
much the answer.

after all, you can only make judgements and get involved with people which 
are familiar and setting off the authorities on someone without knowing the 
circumstances can cause real heart-ache for those affected; so you really 
have to be sure before you bring in the big guns.

sorry rose (.37), if i take up the "child abuse" case. you have just 
reminded me of a recent incident, where it went the other way. the next
two paragraphs are not addressed to you, rose. its about a faily extreme
case of someone who can't seem to mind her own business to an extent 
which is unbearable; like my former mother-in-law!! she's not as bad really, 
but she does seem to have a problem...

yes, she caused a real stir last year, by going to the pediatrician and 
telling her, that my ex wife's SO was sexually abusing our children. now 
this was one spiteful act - her constant interfering was *one*big*problem* 
in my marriage and now she can't let her daughter make a life with her 
new SO!! fortunatly the pediatrician knew of my ex wifes problems with her 
mother, so she got straight on to us before mum-in-law went any further.

if i didn't know my mother-in-law or my ex wife's SO any better, especially 
through the feed-back from my children, mum-in-law might have broken hell 
loose. the point i am making here, that before anyone calls in the 
authorities, they'd better be sure about their actions.

and now a truly extreme case, one where noone got involved and where someone
should have. a few months ago, here in zurich (switzerland), a child under 
the age of six months was left by itself in a high-rise apartment building. 
the child and two young dogs were found FOUR WEEKS after being left alone, 
they had starved to death. in the investigation which followed, the authorities 
were cleared. what struck me most about this case is that the immediate 
neighbours, who had heard the child's screams, had no contact with the mother,
who had been living in the building since over a year; the neighbours had no 
contact either with each-other, as next door neighbours!

if these neighbours had known each-other, there would have been someone
knocking on the door to ask if all was ok. and if there was no answer this 
someone would have been back and if in doubt, would have been checking
with the other neighbours and something would have been done.

surely in most cases, just offering help and inquiring if all is ok,
is sufficient. in most cases, surely, all is well, and with having
asked, at least you have a load off your mind.

regards,
andreas.

.32:

>    Anyone know the actual risk of kidnapping?  I'd like to 
>    compare the risk of kidnapping for infants, toddlers and
>    so on to other risks, like lightening strikes, strikes by
>    meteorites and so on.  Anecdotes don't tell us much, and
>    I suspect the emotional content means that any news of
>    any such incident is broadcast widely.
>    
>    I suspect, for example, that murder of a child by a parent
>    is much more common than the kidnapping by a passing stranger
>    of a pre-teen child, but have no data.

This is from the latest _Mothering_ magazine (No 71, Summer 1994), page 28:

	According to statistics released in 1990 by the US Department of
	Justice, there are 350,000 children a year abducted by noncustodial
	family members, 450,000 runaways, 127,000 youngsters kicked out or
	abandoned by their families, and about 300 kidnappings.

-Neil

I suspect the risks of sexual abuse by strangers are also small.

    While the risk of these incedents may be small,  I always use the
    "Could I live with myself if...." test in determining  whether to take
    a risk.  The risk of getting hit by a car in a parking lot is much
    greater than being kidnapped from a parked car.  So, would logic
    follow that we should always leave the kids in the car?  I'm not
    trying to be argumentative, I am just pointing out that although
    statistics are probably on the low side, there are other more personal
    reasons to consider.  Personally, I would rather be struck and killed
    by a car, than go through what some of these children have gone through
    at the hands of a disturbed person before they died.
    
    BTW...I would have called the police because of the ages of the 
    children. I would not have confronted the woman because you have know 
    way of knowing how she would react.  You could have put yourself
    and your own kids at risk.

      Hi,
    
        I think that it is important to protect the children. 
    
       The incident I was involved in took me 6 months to actually tell
    a member of the childrens family. Other people this woman talked to
    felt like calling DSS on her etc. But, like ( I think it was .38) them
    I suspected but didn't want to cause trouble if there wasn't any.
    
       But the week I said something and looked for helped was the week
    the man tried to strangle her teenage son and that same week the 
    daughters teacher told her the girl was depressed and withdrawn. In
    both cases she blew them off. She didn't want her son to get in trouble
    for defending himself . He was 18 years old and broke the step-fathers
    nose while defending himself. She told me and others that she
    straightened the F**k**n teacher out and told her the girl was shy
    and to mind her own business. I , and a few others questioned the 
    possibility of getting counseling for the children and she litterally
    told me the same. It was none of my f** business. If it wasn't
    my business, why did she say anything?  I guess that part I need
    more understanding. I had a hard time dealing with the things she
    told me. I needed to talk to someone.
    
        Things she told me....   Girl had blood on her clothes several
    times and step-father said another bloody nose. Girl had nightmares
    and she yelled at girl for waking up. Real strange stuff that put 
    big ????'s in my head.
    
    
         Rose
    
       p.s. I think is so unfortunate that people use lies (especially
    abuse lies) to hurt innocent people. It really angers me. I was 
    sexually abused by my god-father for 4 years because no one wanted
    to get involved. And I know in my heart now that there were people
    back then that suspected. I told my mother my god-father was a 
    bad man. I rebelled in school. I wrote suicide notes. But still 
    it never got results. I had to do it myself as an adult. The
    recovery bit that is.
    
        
    
        As far as how much danger children are in. I think that whether
    the odds are 1 in a million or 1 in 100. Who wants to be that 1?
    The important thing is using common sense in a situation and evaluate
    it or talk to people first. Or if it's a quick decision, hopefully
    it's the right decision. Unfortunately that can't and doesn't always
    happen.......
      I like the question .41 asks  "Could I live with myself if....?"
    
    
       Rose

The "Could I live with myself if ..." question sounds good but again I
have to go back to a the idea that the risk of the child getting hurt
is probably higher than the sitting in the car as they did.  Could I
live with myself if I had an accident that killed / maimed / injured
those kids ?  NO >>> I WOULD PROBABLY STOP DRIVING!

I once spun out on some ice with my wife in the car and while we were not
hurt, I had a hard time living with myself from the risk I'd put her in
driving on that terrible night.

I think the problem here is that there are risks you feel in control of
and risks you don't feel in control of.  Driving your car, although
riskier, you actually feel you have greater control of the risk.

Rose, I understand and appreciate what you are trying to say ... that
things could so easily be uncovered if we reported potential child abuse.
The hitch here is that society has become far less tolerant of child
abuse, and therefore those that are reported tend to be dealt far less
objectively than they should, and innocent people are being charged with
crimes they didn't commit.

An example of that occurred a few years ago in England where lots of
parents were being charged with child abuse by a group of Drs in a
hospital (and who better to know if a child has been abused!) and when
the facts came out these parents were innocent.

5 minutes alone in a car is NOT the same thing as chidl neglect or child
abuse.  It MAY be poor judgement, but we are ALL guilty of that from time
to time.  As it stands today, society does not have a good way of giving
us those "judgement" checks ... it is either "Laissez faire" or the cold
fist of the law.  The Law is not what is required ... education is.



Stuart

    Going back to the base note - Has DSS called you back and what did they
    say?

    This is a very touchy kind of thing. Perhaps the mother thought she was
    exercising good judgment on this one, but would not do the same thing
    if she was farther away. A couple times I have left my 3-yr-old son in
    the van (doors locked, and it was winter so I didn't worry about
    overheating) in the post  office side parking lot while I walked over to
    the box at the  front of the building, 50 or 60 feet away. I felt that
    since I had locked up, was close, and could see the van while I dropped
    the mail in, it was safe, but even then I thought about what I was
    doing. Later my paranoia overcame my laziness and I went ahead and
    started taking him in if I couldn't pull right up to the mailbox.

    Once, at Sears, a woman told me to watch out for my son when he was at
    the opposite end of a shelf and I was looking the other way. While I
    thought she was being a little extreme, I accepted that she was just
    very concerned about his safety. And it does just take a moment's
    inattention for someone to take him away.

    Many of these situations are very subjective. A DSS person who thinks
    about these cases all the time and is probably familiar with actual
    cases of abuse, neglect, and abduction would probably interpret such
    things differently from the rest of us, who have never experienced such
    a thing. 

    However, I think you definitely did the right thing talking to the woman
    about it. Even if she got mad at you, you put the fear of God into her.
    So maybe she will think twice about it next time. Personally, I don't
    know if I would have called DSS based on your description. As sensitive
    as I am to prudent and proper care of children, I am also sensitive to
    the danger of overreacting, especially when there is a chance action
    might result in removing a child from the home. We are all capable of
    occasional mistakes and lapses in judgment, but those don't make us bad
    people or poor parents. It is when we don't learn from them and avoid
    them in the future that we have a problem. Hopefully DSS will be able to
    make a calm, objective assessment and respond appropriately. It would
    not surprise me to find that they get a lot of such complaints. People
    do a lot of stupid things; fortunately, the odds are with them most of
    the time.

    .45 That was a good note.
    
         I know what you mean about saying a DSS worker may think
    differently than most of us. I realize that I think differently than
    some and others agree with me. 
    
         I just thought about a situation that I never thougth was
    dangerous. 
    
         When my youngest was just few years old I had put him in the
    shopping cart with the groceries. They didn't have child seats and it's
    not easy carrying him and not easy trying to to hold his hand while
    trying to shop. Well, he got thirsty. He opened a bottle of bleach.
    I was looking for something and got a whif of the bleach. Turned
    around just in time to see him put the bottle to his mouth. I
    was able to take it from him in time before he got it in his mouth.
    He then said , "I'm thirsty!" He obviously realized it was a liquid
    and thought he could drink it. For the life of me I can't understand
    how the smell didn't prevent him from still wanting it. I immediately
    put the bleach back and never bought anything like that if he
    was with  me. I also made sure that he never had access to any thing
    like that. 
    
         I think it's really tough with young children. There are so
    many things that you may not even think of when your busy. I have
    a feeling that maybe this woman never even felt she had done something
    wrong or endangered the children. When it was pointed out to her,
    her reaction was anger. She may very well have let the anger out
    towards the person who confronted her, but she really may have been
    anygry at herself for what she may have done.
    
       Rose

Interesting footnote as I read through some of the earlier replies.
My neighbor's wife is from Iceland. We were talking along these lines
one day, and she mentioned that over there they will leave kids in
their strollers outside of a grocery store while they shop. Everybody
will keep an eye out to make sure nobody's kids get loose or go
rolling off, but they don't worry about someone taking a kid. Such
innocence! Reminds me of when I was in Ireland last year, there
were teenage girls with backpacks hitchhiking everywhere. My partner
and I couldn't believe it. He said, "Gee, must not be any axe
murderers over here!" It is gratifying to see that there are
societies where personal safety, espcially that of your children,
can be taken for granted. It is very sad that the US is not one of 
them, and in fact seems to be the worst. Where else are children 
considered such easy prey?