Conference moira::parenting

    Well, if he's happy on his back and you're careful about burping him
    after feedings and your pedi hasn't said *not* to let him sleep on his
    back -- I'd let him sleep on his back!
     
    They changed the recommendation between my two kids, so the older one
    slept on his stomach and the baby sleeps on his back. I was also
    worried about him choking but it never happened. You can also ask your
    pedi what he/she thinks. And you can tell your MIL all those new
    statistics about stomach sleeping and SIDS. 
    Sue
    

Generally, apart from spit-up, a baby vomiting does a pretty good job of
ejecting the stuff (experience talking ... yuchhhh!) and spit up finds its way
out anyway ... the tongue does a good job there!!!

It's not really a great concern, except for really sickly babies.

Our kids never slept on their stomachs ... always side or back.

Stuart

    My two healthy happy babies started out on their sides for about a
    month or so.  Once they could easily move themselves around, they
    switched to their stomachs.  Since I am an avid stomach sleeper (or was
    till pregnancy interferred), I didn't try to change their habits.  Now,
    both kids will sleep anywhere, anyway, anytime!  We did have one
    instance of a night-time vomit with an infant and believe me, what
    Stuart says is true.  Covered the whole sheet of the crib except where
    he was laying.  
    
    -sandy
    

    
    What is the story behind the SIDS vs sleeping on stomach/side/back?
    
    Lynne

Covered elsewhgere in here, but basically, a statistically higher number
of SIDS deaths occur in babies who sleep on their stomachs than on their
backs.  The number difference is quite significant, so the general
recommendation is now that babies should sleep on their back or sides.

Stuart

    The SIDS thing is probably discussed elsewhere, but briefly what I've
    heard is lying on the front is thought to increase the temperature in the 
    nose & mouth possibly leading to an ideal place for a virus to multiply 
    possibly linked with SIDS - no one really knows, but the stats. (not to 
    hand) have shown a dramatic reduction in SIDS cases in UK since the
    back-to-sleep recommendations.
    
    I've been present when Rowan has been on his back (on the floor) during
    his gastro-enteritis spell. He threw up in a great fountain (as he
    does at the slightest sign of choking) which went straight into the air
    and back onto his face. The greatest problem was that it went into his
    eyes which were very red for hours aftewards, poor soul.
    
    Andy

    Hi, I'm usually just a read-only person, however, I thought I would
    mention a pillow that I have seen at various stores.  ie. Toys R Us. 
    It is designed specifically to hold a baby on its side.  It looks like
    it is a hard foam or something and it has foam sides for both
    the back and stomach. The baby is placed in the middle.  Don't know
    from experience if it works, but you might look into that.  I
    personally just laid my son against the bumper pad.  It worked for the
    first four months or so but now he lays the way he wants.  A little
    scary but I figure there isn't much I can do about it!
    
    Mary

    The controversies of "infant sleeping positions" have been too many for
    me to take any one "study" as significant. Infants sleeping on their
    tummy is supposed to help colic which is (mostly) related to gas. This
    position is supposed to help. However, infants sleeping on their tummy
    is related to SIDS or so they say. Sleeping on their sides is the best
    (from experience from many moms) but some infants do not like to sleep
    on their sides all the time and neither do I. 
    
    Soooo, the way we did it was, at night we tried to keep our kids in the
    'sleeping on their side' position with pillows and rolled up receiving
    blankets. We were successful with Avanti but not with Neel. Neel loved
    to sleep on his back with his palms under his head (still does). During
    the day since my in-laws watched him, they let him slepp on his tummy,
    checking on him as often as they could. So the kids slept in all
    positions depending on if we could keep an eye on them or not.
    
    I do not believe in any one theory, do whatever seems right for your
    infant and I am sure Mom's have that 6th sense about what is good for
    their child (at least I believe a lot in instinct).
    
    And of course, never let your infant sleep on his/her tummy ona pillow.
    
    Shaila
    
    (that's all she wrote)

    Yes, kinda sounds like I did answer my own question but I was worried
    if the sleeping on his back would endanger him more than I originally
    anticipated.  Doesn't sound it.  Thanks for the sanity check.
    
    To the noter who said toy-r-us has the foam things to help your baby
    stay on their side... I have seen them too.  I wanted to order one
    (they are all different ones I just forgot about them!) but everyone
    insisted that towels/blankets to the trick.  NOT!  
    
    To risk sounding like a broken record, it was my MIL and mother that
    said not to waste the approximate $10.00 for these items but then
    again, its my MIL that says they should sleep on their stomach.  
    
    I remedied this problem with her when she sits with him by telling her
    that he likes to nap in his snugli chair and not the crib.  Which is
    true, really! :)
                                                                  cj
    
    

>    The controversies of "infant sleeping positions" have been too many for
>    me to take any one "study" as significant. Infants sleeping on their
>    tummy is supposed to help colic which is (mostly) related to gas. This
>    position is supposed to help. However, infants sleeping on their tummy
>    is related to SIDS or so they say. Sleeping on their sides is the best
>    (from experience from many moms) but some infants do not like to sleep
>    on their sides all the time and neither do I. 

There have been many studies now that have confirmed the link between tummy
sleeping SIDS, in Australia, USA, Canada and UK at least.  So it should be
taken seriously.

Generally, colic is NOT related specifically to gas, although it certainly
plays a part.  This is evidenced that Ovol Drops (Simethicone) and gripe
water only have a very limited effect.  There is far more to colic than
a simple GI digestion problem ... you can be sure that if it was that there
would have been a mechanism for relief long ago ... colic is so agonizing.

Stuart

    RE:-1
    
    Studies should be taken seriously as a "better safe than sorry". These
    studies have a way of changing directions over time. That is why I
    mentioned that Motherly instinct works best. If you worry about SIDS
    then don't let your child sleep on his/her tummy but solely on the
    basis of a study? At least I take studies with a grain of salt and of
    course keeping in mind that I better be safe than sorry. That is why we
    did what felt comfortable for us. I was afraid to death about SIDS when
    Avanti was born and kept listening to her breathe. I used to keep her
    in a crib in our room AND a monitor in her crib to make sure that I
    could hear her breathing all the time! These things are NOT to be taken
    lightly but I have known of some folks absolutely NOT allowing their
    infant from sleeping on their tummy even when they were watching the
    baby in spite of the infant prefering otherwise. A balance is what I
    propose.
    
    Yes, I know how agonizing (especially to Mom) colic is. Sometimes I
    wondered if it was anything other than gas. I forced my kids to use the
    pacifier in the hopes that it would help them if the cause was not gas.
    Also, they likes to be held a lot. So as soon as they were put down in
    their crib they cried and at first you cannot distinguish between colic
    crying or other type. Only the baby and hopefully the Mom will know -
    of course if it is bad then a Dr might know :-)
    
    Shaila

Well, not all babies can clear themselves when they spit up -- speaking
as the mother of one. In fact, Brad used to choke on it, stop breathing
and drop his heart rate (commonly called apnea and bradycardia). For that
reason, he came home on a monitor the first time from the hospital. But
since it was only a 2-week visit, it wasn't much of a problem. By the time
he came home at 6 1/2 months, he weighed substantially more since he was
around 7 pounds, and had learned to clear himself.  So I would guess that
normal babies who start out around 6 or 7 pounds would be fine and you
wouldn't have to worry about choking.

Carla, have you tried making Paul a nest?  Roll up the towels and blankets
to make a nest so that there would be towels on both sides of him, and
cover the whole thing with another blanket. Then he won't have anyplace
to roll. We had to do that with Brad because he was so small and loved
to be coddled, so it made him happier in his crib if he had things on
all sides.  It also kept him from sliding down to the bottom except for one
time when he got out of the nest, slid to the bottom of the crib, and his
little legs went through the slats. It sure looked strange coming into the
room and seeing the blanket we had hung over the end of the crib moving
from his little feet kicking.

Cathy

    
>    Studies should be taken seriously as a "better safe than sorry". These
>    studies have a way of changing directions over time. That is why I
>    mentioned that Motherly instinct works best. If you worry about SIDS
>    then don't let your child sleep on his/her tummy but solely on the
>    basis of a study? At least I take studies with a grain of salt and of
>    course keeping in mind that I better be safe than sorry. ...
    
    I beg your pardon, but most scientific info comes from studies of one
    sort or another.  Some studies DO show non-specific links between
    action a and action b.  Cigarette manufacturers still will have us
    believe that teh studies showing links between smoking and lung
    cancer and heart disease are invalid.  Does that mean we should still
    condone youth smoking ???   As more research is being
    done, these studies are being validated.  Sometimes, there is clear
    evidence from simple numbers.
    
    In the case of sleeping position and SIDS, the sheer numbers of
    SIDS deaths amongst back/side sleepers is remarkably lower than
    stomach sleepers, and this crosses all kinds of other previously
    considered significance boundaries (like homes of smokers, heating
    systems, countries, dietary habits etc etc.)  This makes the
    corellation pretty conclusive and hard to dismiss as "just another
    study"
    
    Stuart

	Contrary to what most hospitals, child-birth classes, and
	(grand)mothers say, not all babies like to be swaddled, cuddled
	too closely, or confined.

	My daughter hated to be swaddled.  At just days old, she could
	get a blanket off herself in seconds. 

	When I put her to bed, I started her on her side, with a blanket
	rolled behind her, and it worked great for the very first few
	weeks.  Early on, she began to roll to her back, sometimes laying
	on top of the rolled up towel.  At just 5 weeks, I began to get
	concerned by the towel/blanket even being in her bed, as she
	roamed the crib so much.  I don't think any of the suggestions
	for making the crib smaller or more confining would have been
	very successful for us.

	At six weeks, I put her down on her belly for a nap.  I was a bit
	unsure about it, but she looked so strange sprawled out on her back.
	At this point, she was holding up her head quite well, I was still
	leaving her door open, and could play the drums in her room while
	she slept if I'd been so inclined.  So, I just checked her several
	times during her nap.  She preferred (and still does) to sleep
	with her arms bent under her chest, her knees on the mattress, and
	her bum in the air.  I put her down the same way that night, and
	she only woke up once.  She seemed to sleep better in that position.

	We ended up starting her on her belly from that point on.  I am
	aware of the SIDS warnings, but during that first week, she rolled
	from her belly to her back, so I knew that she was capable of 
	re-positioning herself if needed.   That was the same week she
	started sleeping through the night (yes, Mom was a little shaky
	upon waking the next morning), so I believe the position suited her
	best.

	With this next child, I plan to start out with side/back positioning,
	then judge how things are based on the baby's activity, preferences,
	and neck strength.

	Karen

    RE:_2
    
    I am not pulling this opinion out of thin air but just last year (I
    think) there was another study that showed that infants sleeping on
    their tummies DID NOT contribute to SIDS. Now do I believe the one that
    said it does or should I believe the one that says that it does not. So
    I use my own judgement. If I feel that by making my infant sleep on
    his/her side I FEEL that it is the safest position I will do so. If I
    feel that sleeping on his/her tummy was better at that time I will
    choose that option.
    
    e.g. Iron content should be high was the study all this time. Now, men
    with too much iron can suffer something (I forget!). Soooo what do I
    conclude!!!
    
    To each their own. I am relating my experience and the way I look at
    things.
    
    Shaila

It may not be the sleeping position per se, but something associated with it.
For instance, just a couple of weeks ago they had something in the newspaper
which said that many SIDS deaths can be attributed to soft bedding (quilts,
sheepskin, etc) in the cribs.  Soft bedding traps the air they breathed out
(carbon dioxide, etc).  Some infants, they said, just *don't* turn
their heads and end up rebreathing that (bad) air. After a few breaths of 
this, they can suffocate.

I can imagine that this would be more likely when the baby is on the tummy,
rather than on his/her back.  On their tummy, they are closer to some of
this type of bedding (particularly sheepskin, which I took out of the crib
when I read this).  It is also more difficult to turn your head when you are
on your tummy than when you are on your back.

      Carol

 There have been studies trying to make this correlation ... and the
one's I've heard of were unsuccessful.  Babies have died in a well ventilated
room with no blankets.

Stuart

    This reply potentially belongs in the 'Sleeping Problems' note but
    anyway, Rowan has this habit of moving up the cot, getting to the top,
    and turning sideways, at which point his legs go out the side and
    averytime he kicks, he bangs his head on the opposite side. He then
    gently lets us know (NOT!) that he's uncomfortable - usually around 2 -
    4am.
    
    We tried using a pram harness to hold him still, which appeared to
    work, but the instructions for the harness said not to use it in this
    way. (Does anyone know why not?)
    
    So now we have this cunning device from the Heinz Baby Club which
    consists of a loop of linen which encircles the mattress to lie under
    the baby, and 2 flaps which velcro together around his torso. This has
    the same effect as the harness but is easier to do and is specifically
    designed for the purpose.
    
    I was just wondering whether it would hold a baby on their side during
    the night, solving problems of rolled blankets / nappies / suffocation
    worries etc.
    
    Andy

    
    
    My son Nicholas slept on his side with no problems.  I did take
    receiving blankets and rolled them up to try and keep him on
    his side in case he rolled over during the night.  
    
    My 6 month old, Joshua has always slept on his stomach which always
    made me nervous (and now I'm even more nervous because I read this
    note 8-*).  I tried time and time again to get him to sleep on his
    side and he refused.  My 2nd option was to lay him on his back which
    he refused also.  You mentioned your son likes to take naps in his
    carrier, Joshua LOVED it and wouldn't sleep in his bassinett and 
    for a little while I had to keep him on my bed next to me in his
    carrier because that was the only way he would sleep.  The only
    position he will sleep now, is on his stomach.  I check on him all
    the time to make sure he's still breathing (thought I'd only do
    that with the first baby!).  Both boys were born large and Joshua
    has been able to lift his head and turn it to one side since I
    brought him home from the hospital.  Does anyone know why SIDS
    is more likely to happen to a baby that sleeps on his/her stomach?
    Is it because they can't turn their heads and they suffocate??
    
    Thanks,
    Chris

    
    After being asleep for awhile, I would roll over, because the
    pressure of lying on my side would eventually cut off the circulation
    in my arm (or whatever).  I'm sure the same thing happens to babies....
    What do you do?  Get up and change the baby's position from time to
    time?
    
    

< There have been studies trying to make this correlation ... and the
<one's I've heard of were unsuccessful.  Babies have died in a well ventilated
<room with no blankets.

You missed what I said, Stuart.  I didn't say they proved that all SIDS deaths
were due to this.  I said that they think *many* SIDS deaths can be attributed
to this.  Even if it is only 10 or 20%, that's still lots of kids whose lives
could be saved.  If it's 50% or 80% of the SIDS deaths, then that's even more.

     Carol

>< There have been studies trying to make this correlation ... and the
><one's I've heard of were unsuccessful.  Babies have died in a well ventilated
><room with no blankets.
>
>You missed what I said, Stuart.  I didn't say they proved that all SIDS deaths
>were due to this.  I said that they think *many* SIDS deaths can be attributed
>to this.  Even if it is only 10 or 20%, that's still lots of kids whose lives
>could be saved.  If it's 50% or 80% of the SIDS deaths, then that's even more.

No Carol, I didn't .... what I tried to say was that I have heard of studies
that tried to confirm this finding and were unable to  make a satisfactory
correlation.

I then added the comment personally about SIDS occuring without
these circumstances ... thus implying that given the circumstances of
a lot of SIDS deaths, I would have a hard job believing this correlation.

Stuart

RE: 15


>       That was the same week she
>	started sleeping through the night (yes, Mom was a little shaky
>	upon waking the next morning), so I believe the position suited her


Ah yes, I was just remembering this.  That first night the baby doesn't
wake up - you slowly wake up, stretch, wonder why you feel so good, then

PANIC! She must not be breathing!!!!

run in there, she's sleeping peacefully, except that you wake her up and
she panics because *you* did.


Pat

    Pat, love it! 
    
    cj

    
    re: Back a few about the pillow ...
    
    I've never seen a "baby pillow", but I have a "neck" pillow which seems
    to be a FAVORITE amongst my kids.  The neck pillow is like a foam
    pillow with a "channel" of foam cut out of the middle, length-wise.
    It's supposed to provide better support/comfort while sleeping.  I
    originally got mine from a chiropracter (sp?) but now you can get them
    just about anyplace.  Jonathan LOVES it, thus I've lost my pillow to
    the baby .... again.  If we lay him in it, lengthwise, he's about as
    long as the pillow.  One "hump" in the pillow is larger than the other,
    I put that side to his back.  The whole thing goes in his cradle, and
    is propped up a bit (he has a cold now), but the cradle also "folds"
    the pillow a bit, so it really cuddles him.  He just loves it!
    
    Normally he'd prefer to sleep on his back except that his pacifier
    falls out, and he doesn't like that.  And yes, if he wakes up crying
    and I don't think he's hungry, a lot of times I'll flip him to the
    other side, cuz it'd make me crazy to have to sleep the same way all
    night long.  Changing his position seems to help him a lot.
    
    If you're REALLY worried about the baby choking, prop the head up more
    so that if they do spit up, it'll be easier to just swallow again. 
    Jonathan has reflux and spits up ALL the time - being on his back or
    sides never seemed to affect him.  If he spits up when he's on his
    stomach, he tries to rub it off his face, and gets it all stuck up his
    nose and all over his face - till he cries to let me know he's NOT very
    happy about it!  
    
    

I'd like to revive this topic only in a slightly different vein...

My daughter, 6-months old, has for a time now slept thru the night (mostly
anyway).  Recently she has taken to rolling over which has become a problem.

Specifically, she will sleep on her back for most of the night and then,
sometime between 3:30am & 4:00am, she will roll onto her stomach
(conscienciously, I do not know).  Once on her stomach, she begins fussing
because she  a) she doesn't (seem to) care much for the position, and  b) 
she is now tangled in her blanket.  This may vary - it could happen multiple
times during the night.

At any rate, the above has been a nightly occurance for the past week or
so and it has become quite frustrating.  I will get up, roll her onto her
back once again and stick a pacifier into her mouth (and sometimes turn on
her music -- a wind-up mobile music box that plays a lullaby, I forget the
name).  Sometimes this works; other times (and becoming more often), I find
I must feed her a small bottle.

This morning, I tried everything:  Rolling her on her back; the pacifier;
the music; the bottle, yet when she was laid down on her back, she constantly
rolled to her stomach.  I finally gave up and left her ther, half-knowing
she was going to begin fussing (and I was going to have her mom come in
and take over) but it never happened - she apparently went to sleep (I had 
left the room out of frustration).

Ideas on how to get beyond this "stage" so we can all get more sleep?

Thanks,

-Andy

ps. Oh, forgot to mention that I always change (or check) her diaper if I
get her up in the night, so that is not the problem.

    Andy,

    Maybe you should forgo the diaper check, I always found that at night 
    when the kids were just fussy it could cause them to become stimulated
    enough to want to get up.  I would rather have to change the whole bed
    in the morning, and have the child sleep the night.  The only time I
    changed it is if it was dirty (and you can usually tell by smell 8^) )

    Try not checking the diaper, maybe she will settle down a little
    faster.

    M-L

Umm, thanks.  Actually, I think you misunderstood what I said:

>ps. Oh, forgot to mention that I always change (or check) her diaper if I
>get her up in the night, so that is not the problem.                 ^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is, if doing everything else doesn't settle her down (ie.turning her
over, straightening the covers, giving her pacifier, playing music box),
then I check her diaper in case she is soaked or has made a mess.  That,
obivously, can be uncomfortable.

-Andy

    Lose the blanket, and put her in a blanket-sleeper?  At least you'll
    know whether being tangled in the blanket is the real problem.
    
    Leslie

    This too shall pass.  I remember this stage and it passed fairly
    quickly for us.   I thought it might last for ever but it was only a
    couple weeks.
    
    Good luck.

    I am glad to hear it is only a phase.  Our son who is 5 1/2 months
    just started this week rolling over onto his back and kicking his feet 
    until we get up and turn him over.  I feel more like a flap jack cook
    than a mother. :*)  Last night he decided at 3:00 to talk to himself
    until 4:00 then he wanted a bottle  I finaly got to fall back asleep
    at 4:30 to get up at 5:30.  Thank god it's friday!
    
    Donna