Conference moira::parenting

    I suggest you call or write the US Dept of Transportation in
    Washington DC with your request.  They also author a package which
    addresses child safety seats.  Several years ago I only had to call,
    but I believe it may have changed to an "in writing" thing with a very
    small fee for information like a couple dollars.
    
    Stay away from "dealer Hype", its usually rather slanted.  Also you
    might want to contact your local emergency folks, fire dept or rescue
    squad, they could probably tell you which vans seem to survive a crash
    best.  
    
    (there is a Fire_Rescue_EMS notes file, I just can't remember the node)
    
    Lyn

    If you want a 'mini' mini-van, I HIGHLY recommend the
    Colt Vista.  This car is about the size of a Suburu Wagon
    but has 2 extra seats in the 'way back' where the cargo space
    is in a small wagon.

    Until this year it was sold by Dodge.  Not sure why, but Dodge
    and Mitsubishi have parted company.  the Vista is still sold
    by Mitsubishi directly.  Dodge sells a car they call the vista
    (although its like pulling teeth to get them to talk about it)
    and I think its also called the Summit WAgon or something like that.
    Its a 5 passenger, not the same as the old Vista.  Its sort of like
    a Pacer.

    My brother has a Villager (Pontiac?)....he thinks its great.  My sister
    has had a few Caravans...loved them all.
    bob

I think you have to look past the kid carryability of the mini-vans ...
they are all relatively convenient.  The differences come with the other
things you want to do with the van.  (One caveat ... my kids were not
so partial to the Pontiac Transsport / Chev Lumina APV / Buick Shadow
vans fo LOOOOONNNGGGG journeys ... and having ridden in the back myself,
when tired, it is just sooo hard to get comfortable to rest.  For around
town, it wasn't a problem).

All the vans are good at carrying people.  But if you just want to carry
people, you could consider a station wagon.  Look at the cargo carrying
ability / towing ability / fuel economy of the various vans.  For example,
I can carry 4*8' sheets of pasterboard in a Dodge Caravan where you can't
in many other vans.  If you want seat adaptability, other vans are better.

Overall, for a full size (as opposed to mini) minivan, the Caravan / Voyager
seems to be the most all round practical vehicle by most consumer testing
groups.  None is perfect for everything , it's a matter of choosing the
van that compromises the fewest things for what YOU want.

Stuart

    Once you get your choices down to one or two vans, you may want to 
    rent one for a couple of days to see how you like it.
    
    My husband and I ended up with a Chrysler for the week we were in 
    Florida because the car we reserved wasn't available.  While it was
    comfortable and great for carting around things - people and cargo, 
    it was very difficult to read any guages on the dashboard because 
    part of the steering wheel was always in the way!  No amount of 
    tilting let us all the guages on the dash.  If we were in the market 
    for a van, we probably wouldn't have noticed this on a test drive - we 
    only noticed it because we were trying to see the gas guage.
    
    Conni
    
    

    I bought a Grand Caravan (Long model) a year and half ago. I wouldn't
    trade it for anything but another one at this time.  (Some day though
    I'd like a sports car :^). ) The only additional options I would get 
    the next time is all wheel drive and anti-lock brakes especially with 
    the long model. I've had it fish tail on me once in the rain when I
    hit the brakes when someone cut me off. The extra foot makes a big 
    difference in the cargo area. With 3 children, two under 2 years of age, 
    the extra cargo space is greatfor play pens and strollers.  We also have 
    taken the two back seats out to lug lumber and furniture with no 
    problem. I noticed with the shorter model when the third seat is pushed
    back there seems to be little room in the cargo area.
    
    Good Luck in your search,
    
    Pat K.
    

We have a GMC Safari (the same as the Chevy Astro) and two kids.  This is 
based on a truck chassis as is the Ford Aerostar.  Most of the other 
minivans are based on car type chassis so their ride is a bit softer.

Beware that minivans are not required to meet the same safety standards 
that cars are.  Some of the makers have incorporated some of these features 
in the minivans, but they aren't required by law.

We liked the GMC because we needed the towing capacity, but also because
we could get it equipped *exactly* the way we wanted.  We ordered it with
rubber floor mats, but the nice seats.  This way we can haul stuff and not
have to worry about the kids (or us) dropping things on the floor.  I can 
clean the van out with a trash barrel and a broom (and my air hose).

You might also check out DLOACT::CARBUFFS for more info on minivans (I 
don't have the note number off hand)

Dave

In my immediate family we have 6 caravans of varying
years and styles. In the earlier models (mine) there
have been a couple of recalls to fix front seat belt
holders and pcv valves but none of us has experienced
any real problems. I have 3 kids (2 teenagers) and 
I wouldn't trade it for anything else (my second car
is another matter). None of my relations have ever done
anything but rave about it. I remember that my wife,
who drives it most of the time, found the dashboard
and front end style more to her liking than the other
minivans available at the time. When we were test driving
them she felt like she was sitting in a truck. In one
case I remember feeling like I was in a helicopter with
the nose down. 

    Although I supported the Colt Vista for a 'mini-mini-van',
    our other 'family' vehicle is a GMC Suburban.  This is not
    really a 'mini-van'...carries 9 adults with ease.  It is
    really a truck, but instead of a truck bed its got a second and
    third bench seat.  LOTS of room.

    We use the Colt when just a few of us do errands or maybe if
    we are all just going out for Pizza.  We use the Suburban when
    we go on vacation or anywhere where we have to bring a bunch of stuff.

    Our family consists of Judy and I plus 4 kids who are getting older
    and bigger every day.  When all 4 of them were in car seats (a real
    nightmare, I can tell you), in the Suburban we could space them out
    enough so that NO ONE could touch another.  Passing back a
    McDonalds burger was 'pass' in the football sense of the word.

    Another real important issue for us is that we wanted 4WD or AWD.
    Good luck in your choice
    bob

Well, we've got the Previa LE (Luxury Edition) and 2 kids, and couldn't be
happier with it's convenience, roominess, and handling.  Here are some of the
features I like most:

	* All-wheel drive, anti-lock brakes (for safe, confident driving)
	* Captain's chairs for front and middle seats (thus, there's an
	  "aisle" in the middle for easy access to stuff/kids in the back)
	  These have movable armrests and reclining backs and are very
	  comfortable seats, especially on long trips
	* Third row seating is a "bench" style, but instead of having to
	  remove it when you want to lug other gear, the seat splits down
	  the middle and each side flips up and can be hooked up indepen-
	  dently (so, you can use half as a seat and half for storage, for
	  instance).  These 2 halves also have reclining backs.
	* Separate heater/airconditioner for the rear (vents on the ceiling
	  and sides) - very handy since the front seats get more sun, etc.
	* Lots of windows makes for a great view for kids in carseats, so
	  they always have lots of interesting things to look at - a great
	  benefit over a station wagon type car!

I could go on, but those are best features in my opinion. Just a very easy
to drive and load car (doesn't feel at all like a truck to me and I've driven
my mom's Caravan which isn't bad, but does feel "bigger").

-Cori

All these commendations in here point to my original contention ... most
vans are great people haulers ... some are just slightly better than others.

What really comes down in making a decison is what else you might want to
do with the van.

re: .10

Agreed.  Also, it seems to me that kids might be a reason to decide on a 
minivan, but kids doesn't seem to be a reason for choosing one over the 
other.  We have a Caravoyager, and are very happy with it.

Clay

    Another thing to consider is how easy is it to load the kids/cargo
    into the minivan.  Some doors open easily, others are heavy and a
    pain in the neck (and back, shoulders, etc.) to move.  Some minivans
    have plenty of room, but it's kind of a production to get to any
    of the stuff you have stowed in the back.
    
    In case anyone is wondering, my insurance company in Mass. says
    minivans have a low "profile'" (i.e., they aren't stolen very often, so
    they aren't *too* expensive to insure.).
    
    I borrowed a copy of the 1994 Consumer Guide to Cars, and would be glad
    to enter the "review" of the Dodge/Chrysler minivans if people are
    interested (and if I can remember to bring the book in!!!!).

>    Some minivans
>    have plenty of room, but it's kind of a production to get to any
>    of the stuff you have stowed in the back.

Agreed.  One more thing to consider is the type of rear door offered.  We 
wanted the side by side door, not the lift gate type.  I think the Ford and 
Chryco offer both types now.  The GMC/Chevy has side by side but also 
offer a combination door.  The top half is a lift gate and the bottom half 
is side by side.  I'm not sure I like that because with the lift gate open 
you have to lean up and over the lower section to put anything in the back. 
The advantage to this is you have one rear window the width of the van 
instead of two smaller windows with a pillar down the middle.  This also 
means you can have a defroster and wiper on the window.

Dave

I went to the library and researched mini-vans, using
the Consumer Reports car issue (usually in April?).

They have a lot of data to consider, but you have to
know what *you* think is important.  I had several
criteria (not in order of importance):  4-wheel
drive, enough space to fit 2 adults, 2 kids in carseats,
2 dogs, packbacking/hiking/skiing/biking equipment,
reconfigurable (so we could carry 6-7 people instead
of toys), easy access to stuff, safety (resistance to
car crashes, handling, etc), reliability, and cost (both
price and repair).

From their data, I was able to narrow it down to three
choices, with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd personal choices.  With
this info, then I got the Consumer Report cost breakdown, which
lists the dealer price of the car and the options.  (Gives
you an idea what you're negotiating about).

My choices came down to 1st - Dodge Grand Caravan, 2nd Toyota
Previa, 3rd Ford Aerostar.  Haven't yet done the buy, so I can't 
say how my choices went.  Will probably buy the mini-van in March,
as that is the month that the fewest car sales are made and dealers
are usually hungry for sales.  (My dad was a car dealer, and has
handed over interesting and useful info).

Pat

    
    I second the suggestion for you check out the CARBUFFS notes file.
    Lot's of good feedback regarding all types of minivans...You'll find
    notes dedicated to each of the major minivan models, as well as topics
    daling with minivans in general. As said earlier, most minivans are good
    people-haulers. The deciding factors tend towards reliability,
    flexibility and comfort. CARBUFFS contains lots of useful information
    regarding these aspects.
    
    FYI, we've owned a Mercury Villager for a full year, and couldn't be 
    happier with it. Rather than repeat myself here, my comments (many and
    favorable) are in the Villager/Quest topic in CARBUFFS.
    
    Good luck in your decision.
    
    Freddie

<                      <<< Note 680.14 by SEND::ROLLMAN >>>

< enough space to fit 2 adults, 2 kids in carseats,
< 2 dogs, packbacking/hiking/skiing/biking equipment,

Can the Toyota Previa really carry that much?

     Carol, whose spouse has been wanting a minivan 

>< enough space to fit 2 adults, 2 kids in carseats,
>< 2 dogs, packbacking/hiking/skiing/biking equipment,

>Can the Toyota Previa really carry that much?

>     Carol, whose spouse has been wanting a minivan 

We've had the equivalent (except for only one dog) many times in our 
Caravoyager; just substitute beach gear (folded up rubber boat, air 
mattressed, etc.), and we don't have stretched version.  Remember, with small 
kids, you have the floor space, and either you can pile stuff on the unused 
seat space, or, if you really want to load up, take out one of the seats 
(and incidentally the ease or difficulty of taking out the seat and putting 
it back in is a factor to consider; it's the one thing I don't like about 
our Caravoyager).  It is something of a joke, though, that buying a minivan 
has almost gotten to be a rite of passage; you've reached toddler+ age 
parenthood.  Some people I talk to seem almost nostalgic when they talk about 
buying one.  They reminisce about taking off for weekends on the spur of the 
moment, throwing everything they need into a duffel bag or a suitcase that 
fits in the "trunk" of a two-seater.

Clay

    Carol,
    
    I have an older Toyota minivan, and it does carry a lot of stuff.  It
    easily fits the elementary carpool on Frank's day for driving.  It can
    seat 7 with all the seats in and still has some space for cargo. the
    gas milelage has been phenomenal.  Good thing as it is what I take to
    get Lolita from one spot to another (She hasn't learned how to
    efficiently pack yet) and she has been moving all over the US.  
    
    for backpacking though we still stick with the Troooper.  it holds our
    car-camping gear, the backpacking gear, one carseat and space for two
    other people to sit in the back, and two adults up front.  I haven't
    tried to wedge the dog in yet, as Iris (chow)was too old last year, and we
    didn't get Sonja (samoyed) until after the season, but I will find a
    spot.
    
    Meg 

We *have* a Trooper.  It is too small for all of us and
the stuff.  Note that we have roof racks and very often
carry stuff up there.  Not great for mileage, but allows
for some space.

I forgot to mention my airline pilot husband is also a
freelance photographer (finally beginning to make money;
may be able to quit flying this year).  The equipment
for *that* alone could fill the back of the Trooper,
except he won't put it back there with the dogs, so it
is in the front with me.  Heaven help me if we get into
a serious accident (or roll the Trooper)....


Pat

    When I was born, my parents had an Austin Mini (van). It was 12 feet
    long, had 2 seats no rear windows and enough room for a fortnights
    holiday luggage and me in my carry-cot wedged (not strapped) in place.
    Of course their weren't any motorways then, so it didn't matter as
    much.
    
    Andy

We're extremely pleased with our Pontiac TranSport.  It's a '92 and I've 
already got over 32K miles on it.  I use it both for work (driving all over 
the southeast) and play (driving all over the southeast ;^)...  I've taken 
several trips at 500+ miles per day and find myself a lot more relaxed at 
the end than when I had a luxo-cruiser (Merkur Scorpio).

It's one of the most comfortable mini-vans that I've ever been in (my 
father-in-law has a Cara-v'ger).  The driver's position is well placed with 
loads of headroom (one of the largest for minivans) plus it has better than 
average roominess -- near the top in most categories -- for the rest of the 
occupants (per Consumers Report).  The crash worthiness of the '92 was 
better than the rest, also (even compared to its siblings, the Lumina and 
Silhouette).  The fiberglass body panels also resist dings, bumps, and SALT 
(not that we have much need for it down here)!   The long nose gets a few 
chuckles from folks, but I like to think of it as another 9" of crumple 
zone.

I got the 3.6 liter V6 with 4 speed auto and the machine just hums along at 
80+ without breaking a sweat, but when I need to pull a vanload of gear 
plus my boat, it's got the low end power needed also.  It's front wheel 
drive, so snow-bound folks should find it usable.  ABS is standard.

The seating is *extremely* flexible with the 7 bucket seats -- the rear 5 
can be individually removed to acheive any layout you need -- and each 
weighs only 37 pounds, light enough for my wife.  I like the fact that you 
can remove the middle seat and seperate siblings with an aisle (like the 
Previa's).  The '94s can even be had with integral child seats (good if you 
occasionally need to haul more than just your own brood).  My daughter 
loves to sit with her car seat in the middle position where she can see 
straight ahead plus to the sides with an unobstructed view.  While I'm on 
the topic of seats, this was also the only mini-van that I *didn't* have to 
climb into.  You can sit in the rear passenger seat without having to climb 
in or out, as it's right next to the door and is at the right level for my 
butt (I'm 5'9" and short-legged).

The Pontiac has additional soundproofing and insulation throughout 
(evidenced by putting one of Field Service's Luminas next to it and opening 
and closing various doors.)  The Pontiac feels like a whole lot more 
vehicle for the money.

One other thing, the van we got had a remote keyless entry in the package.  
We initially thought it was a frivolity, but have since come to rely on it.  
We can lock or unlock the door while inside the house or while running up 
to the van in a pouring rain.  The new '94s also have a power door that 
will open up when signalled by the remote!  Great when you've got an armful 
of kids and packages.

I was skeptical when I first bought it -- now I wouldn't have any other.

Sincerely,
Aaron

FYI, GM is doing away with the fiberglass body panel on these 
vans. They've had too many problems.

daryll

>FYI, GM is doing away with the fiberglass body panel on these 
>vans. They've had too many problems.

I thought they were plastic, not fibreglass.

Dave

    I rented one of these last year and travelled from Lincoln NE to
    Ottawa Ontario, and then BACK to COlorado Springs last year (We had
    a Grand Caravan that went from Colorado to Lincoln, but it had
    tire problems.  That was approximately 3200 miles.
    
    For the driver and front passenger were fine.  For people in the back,
    there is not enough height on any of the rear seats and the seat
    cushions are too short.  If you are by the sliding door, there is
    nowhere to rest your arms, or if you are in the middle.  Once you
    become uncomfortable in those seats, there is NO WAY to get comfortable
    apart from getting out!
    
    If you plan to do LONG multi-day trips, the Caravoyager is much more
    comfy in the back.
    
    Stuart

re -1:

Stuart, you might refer to a previous note in your text, but did 
not specify which one


>    I rented one of these last year and travelled from Lincoln NE to
	      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tell us, what did you rent?


>   If you plan to do LONG multi-day trips, the Caravoyager is much more
>    comfy in the back.

Caravoyager is much more comfy than ____?
  


Thanks 

/Malin

Sorry,  since my note followed (I thought) immediately on from the Pontiac
Transsport (Lumina APV, Buick Shadow) note that it was obvious what I was
talking about ...

As a driver's van, after you've gotten used to the snout, these are real
nice highway vans ... for the passengers over LONG distances ... no thanks.

We were 3 adults and 3 kids on the Ottawa to Colo. Spgs. trip.  The adults
rotated through the 2 front and one of the rear seats.  The two front seats
were fine, but the time in the back was not pleasant ... even for my wife
who is just under 5'.  The kids complained after the first day ...

No-one was able to stay comfortable back there after about 4 hours on the
road.

The kids made me promise that I wouldn't buy one!

Stuart

    Anyone looking at the minivans should also check out what's under the
    hood.  We bought our Caravan in Fall '85 (an '86 model) - when the
    Caravans were somewhat new to the market.  With a 3-year old and one on
    the way, the old Honda Accord just wouldn't do.  We loved our Van until
    it was about 5-6 years old and only had about 60K miles on it.  The
    valve design on the engine is horrible! We started having overheating
    and oil leakage.  We would up replacing the engine last December,
    figuring it would give us another 50K miles or so.  Other than that,
    we've had to do very little with it.  The radiator, fuel pump, water
    pump, and muffler are all the original, and it now has about 120K miles
    on it.
    
    We want a new VAN now, and will probably go with a Grand Voyager. With
    the regular Caravan, you can barely put two suitcases in the back cargo
    space when you have the rear seat in.  We are also looking at the Chevy
    Astro, which has about 1 cubic foot more of storage space and generally
    costs less by about $2K than the Caravan with similar features.
    
    We are hooked on having a Minivan tho.  THere's nothing like it for a
    trip with kids and all our junk!
    
    By the way, our old Van still has upholstery that's not ripped or
    anything. A little dirty maybe, but has held up very well at the seams,
    etc. 
    
    Kathleen
    

    We have an '87 Caravan and though we haven't had to pack lots of kids
    stuff (my youngest was 2 when we got it), we do love the van.  It has
    127K miles and we are now faced with catalytic converter problems.  We
    replaced the timing chain at about 80K or so and have used the van
    extensively.  We took it to Tennessee this past Christmas break on a
    prayer (and a new alternator).  Speaking of hte mechanical aspect - we
    have had good luck in my opinion - if it starts and we can go - I'm
    happy.
    
    I heard the early Caravan's had problems such as you mentioned.  Seems
    they worked them out with time.
    
    We have the regular size and do want to go with a grand next.  Seems we
    might have kids with long legs (daddy is >6' tall and if it's gonna
    last 8 or so years, we'll need the leg room.
    
    -sandy
    

    I think this is appropriate enough for one of those "basic dumb" type
    questions...
    
    When you go car (or van) shopping, do you take the child(ren) or leave
    him/her home with a sitter.  How do you test drive with active
    child/ren and an eager salesman in the car.
    
    My car is on its last legs (or clutch as the case may be) and think
    ASAP is the time to go shopping.  We've got a couple brands in mind,
    but haven't had any Handon with them, and would like to test drive
    perhaps after work very soon.  Do I ask my inlaws to take our active
    7-year old son, or take him along since sometimes he really seems to
    make some very interesting comments at the "right" moment?
    
    We bought this car when he was under a year old, so it wasn't an issue
    then.
    
    Lyn

                       <<< Note 680.29 by LEDS::TRIPP >>>
                  -< do we take the child car shopping too? >-

Lyn,

We took our munchkins along for the shopping part, left them home for
the buying excursion.  It was important to [me] to see how well we all
"fit".  I installed both car seats along with their occupants as well 
as their 9 year old brother in every car we test drove.

My husband did the purchasing/ordering ordeal alone.

Rochelle

We took our kids with us last August when they were about 2 1/2 and we were
buying the Caravan.  It kind of rushes things along if you have a couple of
active kids running everywhere, and you don't get caught up in the 'wait here
a minute while I go check with my manager' routine. And they give you a great
excuse to just up and leave when you've had enough of the car shopping, but 
the salesman is still using the old high-pressure tactics. Plus, we wanted to
know how hard it would be to get the kids in and out, and how well they
would fit.

We left them home, however, when we went back to do the actual negotiating 
and buying, but we would have brought them then, too, if my mom and dad hadn't
decided to just show up on our doorstep that day (excuse-of-the-moment was my
cousin had given them her leftover diapers, and they were worried I'd run
out.)

Cathy

    Rreally - think how many salesman annoy us.  Time we shared what we
    have.  We take our kids, too, to give them a say in how the "back" seat
    feels. 
    
    I remember when we were buying our Caravan, we took both kids (we were
    able to test drive without the salesman) out in the car (one in his car
    seat).  We asked their opinion, etc.  When we were signing the
    pre-sales agreement, my oldest said it was his car too, could he sign
    the deal.  So we gave him a pen and drew a line on the top (above the
    perforation) and he signed.
    
    A few months later we were on a long drive one afternoon and I was
    flipping thru the radio stations.  I hit one that Kyle wanted to listen
    to, but kept passing thru.  He said, "Hey, put it back on that one."  I
    answered, "It's my car, I'll listen to my station."  "It's my car, too,
    I signed the papers, so please put it back."
    
    
    I did.
    
    
    And he never signed for another car again!!!
    
    
    -sandy
    
    

    We took Sarah with us when we did the initial shopping for my car which
    was to be the primary baby toter.  Although Sarah was still in her
    infant car seat at the time and not much of a threat for running around
    and creating havoc it was still nice to have her as an "excuse" for
    leaving a dealership when WE felt it was time to leave.  I'm actually
    glad we had her with us because the one car I fell in love with (an
    Audi 80 - ok, mom was having a hard time letting go of that carefree
    image 8^) ) was absolutely horrible for any type of car seat and forget
    about having passengers in the back, too).   However, when we did the
    actual wheeling and dealing we took an afternoon off while Sarah stayed
    in daycare, and worked the deal sans baby. By the way, the mommy mobile
    is a Mercury Sable (not a bad car at all).
    
    I don't think I'll ever bring a child(ren) along during the negotiation 
    after seeing/hearing what was going on in salesman cubicle.  A family 
    (mom, dad and 2 kids) were looking at station wagons, the kids were 
    running all over and being very noisy.  The mom is chasing the kids around 
    and the dad is yelling for them to be quiet.  Meanwhile, the salesman is 
    taking full advantage of the situation by taking no money off the
    sticker price of the car and offering them short money for their
    trade-in.  The dad was so rattled and the mom just kept yelling at the
    kids and at the dad to finish up that he just took the first offer.
    
    Susan

    I am also a believer in taking the kids for the shopping part of a new
    car.  This way you can make sure that the car seat(s) will fit, the
    passenger seats are comfortable enough for kids for long trips, and
    look for safety features you might otherwise miss without the kids
    present.  Since negotiations can take forever, I left Lolita and Carri
    at home when I went to work on the actual purchase.
    
    Meg

One thing we've found out about our Caravoyager that I assume would be true 
of vans and minivans generally -- if someone is prone to carsickness, the 
back seat is not a good place to sit.

Clay

    One common problem is that in the back of mini-vans, because of the
    interior space, it is easy to focus on things in the van, like
    reading, coloring etc.  The result being an increase in a tendency to 
    carsickness.
    
    Stuart
    

    
    	Time for a new car.
    
    	Station Wagon, Mini-van or four door sedan?
    
    	Do you like your car?  Any childproof or things that you like
    	about it from a "family" point of view.  Easy access, washable,
    	etc.
    
    	We have 1 child, lots of stuff.  We're leaning towards
    	a station wagon because a mini-van may be overkill and 
    	doesn't get as great gas mileage.  
    
    	We have a four door Accord and it's usually ok but seems cramped on 
    	longer rides with "stuff".
    
    

Hi.  We just had exactly the same decision to make this summer -- one child,
lots of stuff (we were planning a one month cross-country camping trip),
replacing an old four-door Accord.

The first thing you'll find, if you or your spouse has very long legs, is that
*nothing* has the leg room of an Accord.  In fact, most of the mini-vans have
much less leg room.

We assumed to begin with that we wanted a mini-van, but after doing a lot of
test driving, we discovered that we really weren't that enthusiastic about the
feel of them.  We were more comfortable about a more car-like feel.

We ended up in a Subaru Legacy station wagon with all-wheel drive and anti-lock
brakes.  It isn't an awful lot of interior space, but it did ok (barely) for our
four weeks of camping; and after 20 years of Honda ownership, it felt pretty
natural to us.

For us, the station wagon seemed to be a better solution.

	-Neil

    When I was expecting the twins, we got an Accord station wagon. I found
    that it was too small for all the stuff we needed to carry, so we got
    rid of that and ended up with a Grand Caravan.  I've found that the
    caravan is definitely what we needed, but I do miss the creature
    comforts and generally better interior design of my Honda - but then,
    that was my third Honday, and I was kind of spoiled.  We have a 1993
    caravan, and I notice that the 94's and now 95's are much better inside
    and have most of those things I missed.
    
    Our philosophy was once we decided we needed a bigger vehicle, we got a
    large mini-van, so we didn't even look at some of the smaller ones. I
    needed extra space, so that's what we went for. At this point, I figure
    I'll be driving a mini-van for the next 12-15 years.  Only thing I'd do
    differently on this van is to get the quad seating instead of the bench
    seat in the middle so each kid could have their own seat. My cousin and
    my sister-in-law just got new vans with the quad seating, and it's
    really nice. Plus, the seats are much higher which solves the problem
    I'm having with Jessica in that she's so tall, her head is above the
    carseats as well as the back of the seat if she just uses a booster
    seat or a regular seatbelt. 
    
    

    We've got 3 kids and given the size of today's "full-sized" cars,
    anything less than a Fleetwood is too small.  I drive a Bonneville and
    there's barely enough room in the back seat for the kids.  We went the
    mini-van route and after test-driving a number of models, I bought my
    wife a Voyager.  It has plenty of seating and cargo space and the price
    was right.  If you're going to haul a lot of people/cargo make sure you
    get one with a 6-cylinder engine.
    
    					John G.

    three kids a dog and we camp.  
    
    We have an izuzu trooper which has enough legroom for all of us but is
    a pain in the neck with more than one car seat. and a Toyota van wagon. 
    Both have been good work horses for us and all our stuff.
    
    meg

    There are so many variables, such as whether you want/need
    4 wheel drive.

    We have 4 kids, lot of stuff, and demand 4WD.  So we have 2
    cars:  a Suburban and a Colt Vista.

    The Suburban seats 9 adults...or 2 adults and 4 kids, all in
    car seats so that none of them can even touch each other!  Its
    a GREAT family car, but I suspect a lot more than you need.

    The Colt Vista (original type) seats 6 adults pretty comfortably.
    It looks like a smaller cousin of the Voyager.  Holds a lot of stuff
    and the seats fold up in many ways.  Its about the size of a
    Suburu Station Wagon but it has 2 extra seats in the 'way back'.

    Dodge no longer sells this original Colt Vista.  This year they
    dropped it...i have no idea why.  You can buy it directly from
    Mitsubishi.  Dodge sells a 5 passenger version, sort of reminds
    me of the old Pacer, sort of rounded and lots of glass.  I have
    friends who have bought this car and they really like it.

    My brother looked at Voyagers and other MiniVans.  he bought
    a Mercury Villager and it looks a lot nicer to me than the
    Voyager.  But I see a LOT of Voyagers out there.  Since they
    now come with AWD, we'll at least look at them next 'car decision'.

    Let us know what you get.
    thanks
    bob

    I fall into the minority here but .... there's just me and the 3 kids,
    and we do fine with my Hyundai Excel.  Yup!  If I don't have the
    stroller, it can really hold an amazing amount of 'stuff'!  You'd be
    surprised.  This is, of course with the hatchback version.  Leg room is
    not a problem, and Chris' legs make up more than 1/2 of his 4'7".  The
    baby sits in the front passenger seat (it's easier to deal w/ the car
    seat there, and the other 2 boys are w/ their dad 1/2 the time), and
    the 2 boys sit in the back.  W/ 3 people, (instead of my 4), you'd have
    lots of other possibilities.  There's a 60/40 split for the back seat,
    and once that's layed flat, there's tons of 'storage' space back there. 
    You wouldn't know to look.
    
    BUT, if that doesn't help any .... I still vote for a 2-door as opposed
    to 4.  The doors on a 2-door are much larger and 'get out of the way',
    and when the front sit's flipped forward, make for a much larger area
    for the kids to climb into.  It's helped a lot when the kids are
    climbing in w/ backpacks and lunchboxes and whatever else.  I used to
    have a 4-dr Escort Wagon, and there really wasn't anymore room than I
    have in the Hyundai, and the small doors were a ROYAL pain in the butt!
    I also didn't care for the 'child safety' windows - I would rather have
    been able to get the air into the car - none of my kids are the type to
    'jump out'.  I *DID* like the 'you can't open the door from the inside'
    feature, but confess I didn't use it often - freaked out my sister when
    we 'trapped' her back there once, and as soon as the kids could be
    getting in/out, it was more of a hassle then anything.  But for the
    two-year-old "curious about everything and touching everything" stage,
    it brought a lot of peace of mind!
    
    If you do check out the Hyundai's, don't even look at the automatics,
    and go for 1 model up from the base.  There's a *LOT* of different
    features, you'll be sorry if you get the 'stripped' down base model.
    
    Good luck!
    Patty

	We went from a two-door Honda accord hatch-back to 
	a Taurus Station Wagon.

	We test drove the Honda Wagon, and for the same price
	as the Taurus, it had about half the room.

	The Taurus has terrific leg room, and has the "jump seat"
	in the back (which we've yet to use).

	Works just fine for this family of four... I suspect we'd
	need to go bigger if/when we have more kids.

	Karen

	RE: Bob Armstrong

	Ah!  The Suburban!  We had one when I was a kid, and 
	I always tell my husband we'll need one when we have
	4 kids of our own!  Not only had room for 5 kids and
	2 adults, but all of our ski gear and weekend luggage!

	Karen

We have a 4 door Toyota Camry.  2 children, ages 6 and almost-2.

The Camry has amazing trunk space.  We would still like more room, but very
rarely.  We hope to get a big dog someday, and then we'll need it more.
The trunk holds amazing amounts of stuff, and we've had grocery store packers
swear we wouldn't fit it all, and we've still had room to fit more.  On the
few occasions we've wanted more space (like camping; we have a huge tent)
then we've used a cartop carrier.

One part of this car I've suddenly appreciated (this week) is the kid latches
in the back.  There's a way to keep the back doors from being opened from
the inside.  This was never a problem with our first child (*sigh), but our
little imp Justin likes to take off his shoes and socks then play with the
door handle with his bare feet and toes.  :-}  With his high perch in his
car seat, he reaches quite easily so the kid latches are a dream.

The advantage to this car over a station wagon or minivan (as I understand it)
is that when we buy something and put it in the car, we can put it in the
trunk and no possible-thief can see it. 

One disadvantage of the minivans that I've noticed is that often the
minivans don't fit *me*.  Shellie and I are roughly average female height
(I'm 5'5" and she's 5'4") and most of the vans seem to be made for men.
I find it difficult sometimes to get the seat, etc, where I can easily reach
the pedals and see all the items on the dashboard and reach the things in
the middle.  Check these things out when test driving.

One disadvantage to the Camry, btw, is that the computer which handles the
automatic seat belts (among other things) is located between the front seats.
Justin had thrown up in the car so I took the car to have the upholstery 
cleaned at a car wash.  When they cleaned it, the computer somehow got wet.
Toyota replaced the computer for free, agreeing that it was not in a good
location or well enough protected.  They gave me no hassle whatsover, so at
least it worked out well.  This is an 87 Camry, so more recent Camrys may
not have that problem.

    Carol

    Before we had our second son (Chris), Kathy, Nick and I managed quite 
    well with her 4-door Topaz and my 2-door Daytona. We pride ourselves on 
    travelling light (or at least travelling 'smart'), but it's amazing how
    much extra stuff you need when travelling with two kids. For day-to-day
    stuff, a 2- or 4- door would handle us, (in fact, I take the kids
    to/from daycare on a daily basis, and 99% of the time it's in my
    Daytona) but start adding things like a 16" bicycle plus a F-P trike, plus 
    stuff for the beach, plus soccer gear, plus the 'just-in-case' kind of 
    stuff, or pack for a camping trip, and it adds up quickly.
    
    Within a few months after Chris was born, it was apparent that we would
    soon reach critical mass, and started looking at bigger cars. Because
    of family ties, we were choosing between the Merc Sable wagon and the
    Merc Villager (although I did look at the Chryco minivans). We went
    with the Villager for a number of reasons, but among them were the
    facts that the Villager rode like a car rather than a van, and that
    Kathy liked the added visability resulting from the higher profile. (I
    tease her on this by saying that she was simply getting tired of riding
    in a car and being 'blocked out' by the legion of mini-vans, and was
    just looking to fight fire with fire...:^)
    
    Now that we've had one for a couple of years, I doubt we'll go back to
    owning a car until Nick enters high-school... 
    
    You might want to also check out the CARBUFFS notesfile...there's
    seperate notes for the Villager, the Chryco family, the GM family as
    well as some topics on minivans in general.
    
    Good luck...
    on the Chryco

    I'm also in the market for a new car. We are a family of 3 and will
    likely stay that way with the exception adding a mid sized dog next
    year.  We currently have a 3 door Toyota 4-Runner 4WD and 3 door SAAB 900. 
    We are replacing the SAAB because it has 230K miles. Both cars hold tons 
    of stuff and we love them both. Since the baby, their only draw back are 
    they aren't 5 door.  While there is a fair amount of room to get Alex 
    in/out of the car seat, I think the 5 door will be better on our backs.
    We're deciding to replce the old SAAB with a new/used SAAB 9000 5
    door. This car is larger, fun to drive, safe, yet with the hatchback
    you can still haul tons. They've always had hatch covers so noone can
    see what you're carrying.   Hopefully we'll connect with the right used 
    vehicle.
    
    We looked at the Camry, Taurus, Honda and Saturn wagons which were all
    very nice. We loved the concept of the Saturns but we felt the wagon was 
    just too small. If they come out with a larger class, we would
    seriously consider it for the next replacement. Some or perhaps most of 
    the wagons now have options to buy covers for the cargo areas, but the 
    Saturn dealer didn't even know if they could get one implying that not 
    many people purchase them and they certainly weren't pushing them. This
    is such an important feature for me, I can't understand why this isn't 
    standard feature in all wagons.  Since we've loved our SAABs so much
    we've pretty much decided for the cost of the new Camry/Taurus/Honda 
    wagons, we'll go with the used 9000.   
    

    
    We have 1 kid, lots of ski stuff and occasionally top soil,
    cow manure, etc.
    
    I used to have a VW Quantum, 4 door front wheel drive, lots of
    room, ski pass through, lasted for 8 years, 180K miles.
    
    Bought a Nissan Maxima SE last year, 4 door front wheel drive. 
    Little bit bigger than the Quantum, has skis pass through (a 
    hole between the trunk and the back seats, behind the arm rest, 
    can fit 3 pair of skis inside a padded ski bag, no need for ski 
    racks). Lots of leg room in front and back, it is actually a
    mid size car. Good gas mileage, excellent maintenance record,
    great in the snow (I have ABS and 5 speed),  and it is a fun car.
    It is child proof locks and window locks. 
    
    Looked at the following, Ford Explorer, Toyota 4 Runner and Camry V6,
    Acura Legend, Nissan Pathfinder and MaximaSE. Criteria for me - has 
    to be 5 speed, 6 cylinders (last longer than 4), front or 4 wheel drive, 
    close to perfect maintenance records, last almost forever, handles 
    well, fun to drive, airbags, ABS, fits me 5'6" slender and my husband
    6'. Explorer was too big for my build, I couldn't reach some things,
    boring to drive, drives like a truck. 4 Runner was underpowered and
    drives like a truck. Camry felt cramped inside and did not handle well. 
    Legend was very nice, but way too expensive. Pathfinder got me sick on 
    the passager side. MaximaSE was my choice.
    
    
    Ea
    

    re:	Ah!  The Suburban!  

    if/when you are interested....our local bus companies keep
    fleets of Suburbans to drive up into the hills (all 4WD) where
    the busses cant go.  Each summer they seem to sell their oldest
    ones and buy some new ones.  They are always in excellent shape
    and are regularly inspected to a much higher standard than
    'normal, privately owned' cars.  We've bought two.  The first
    was a real rust bucket, paid almost nothing for it, just so my
    wife could decide if she really could be happy driving such a boat
    around town.  She loved it!  And it lasted 3 years.  We're now on our
    second, again an ex-school bus.

    So if/when you are interested, call some of the local school bus
    companies and they may have a great deal.
    bob

    Just curious (since I think I'd love to have a Suburban)...
    what kind of mileage do they get?  
    
    thx,
    rachel

    Hi Rachel....

    A Suburban is basically a pickup truck, but instead of the
    truck bed, the 'cab' continues back and it has seats.  You
    can get a Suburban with a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton suspension!  Just
    like a pickup.  And they are THE vehicle for towing!

    And just like a pickup, dont buy it for the gas milage.

    I get about 10 miles/gallon.  Mine is a 1984 with about 150K
    miles on it (still young yet!).  I'm not sure what milage
    the newer Suburbans get.
    bob

    Don't know much about them, but a guy who used to work here had one,
    and it was all decked out.
    
    o Remote start
    o Remote doorlocks w/ code/keypad
    o Power doors/windows
    o A/C with separate vents throughout the truck
    
    And then of course your regular 'luxury' items.  All this for only 1/4
    of what a new house might cost! 
    
    Oh - and his wife *LOVES* it!
    

    I just bought an electronic 4WD Aerostar van.  Started off wanting a
    utility vehicle like an Explorer, but after I test drove it I fell in
    love.  It's very comfortable and has a smooth,quiet ride like a car --
    no truck suspension.  After driving a toyota pickup for 4 years I was
    ready for something smooth.  
    
    The van is more vehicle than I wanted (an extended length with options
    I don't need and can hardly justify paying for!).  Now that the deed is
    done I plan to enjoy it, at least for as long as I can pay for it!  I
    did get a good deal - $500 under invoice and cash for my truck - I'll
    pay off my higher interest debts with the cash.  It's a 7-passenger
    with cargo space to boot, so it'll hold plenty of people, our 3 dogs,
    and luggage!  Gas mileage isn't too much worse than the truck if I
    stick to 55 mph (I get 23 mpg highway - the truck got 25, usually going
    65 mph).  That's a hard one to swallow, since in the past I always
    insisted on small vehicles that got at least 40 mpg.  Families change
    things. 
    
    Lynn
    

    We just made the min-van jump a few weeks ago.  I'm definitely NOT a
    mini-van fan due to the "truck" feel of most.  We had a 94 Aerostar for
    about a week and I took it back because the ride was so rough it made
    me nauseous.  It could have just been the height or the vehicle or a
    number of other things, but I could not live with it.  We then started 
    looking at the new Windstar (also FORD) and I fell in love with it.  
    It truly drove like a car with no comparison to any of the other 
    minivans that we drove.
    
    I personally like the bench seats so that the kids can lay down on long
    trips.  I have 2 sleepers and it's nice that they can have their own
    seat to lay down in.  We also have #3 on the way and figured we need
    all the "seat space" we could get.  The Windstar also had more storage
    room than the other vans when we were researching via consumer reports. 
    One thing I still have to get used to is the gas mileage - it's about
    the same in all mini-vans - not great.
    
    Good luck.

I found the Aerostar seats very comfortable for short rides, but when it
came to 4 hours in the saddle, my impression was very different!  I had a
good back ache courtesy of those seats (but then I've never found Ford
seats particularly comfortable for long rides anyway!).

As for handling, we drove one down Highway 401 from Kingston to Toronto
Ontario along the North shore of Lake Ontario ... There was a fairly strong
wind out of the Southwest, so the wind was on the nose corner of the van
most of the way.  Like this, the Aerostar kicked and bucked and buffeted
terribly.  It felt downright dangerous to drive at 100 km/h (about 65) ...
when a tractor trailer passed even at 80 km/h (50mph) it was like a riding
a bucking bronco ...  Same under bridges.

This was around Christmas of '88 and even though it was 6+ years ago, the
experience was so frightening, I don't want to drive one again!

Stuart

    re last 2
    
    oy - well, i guess test drives can't tell ya everything.  If I
    absolutely hate it I'll sell it in a couple years.  I'll just stay home
    on windy days!  (I liked the Windstar but it didn't come in 4WD.)  L

    My vote - the Mercury Villager.  We have 3 kids 13-10-4.  Four years
    ago we bought the Mercury Sable Wagon with the 3rd seat.  Big mistake, the
    car drove great just not enough room.  I did not like letting the kids
    ride in the 3rd seat.  I was too nervous that if I was ever rear-ended
    it would be tragic.  We just traded for the Villager -- I love this
    van.  Great ride, 24 MPG/highway 20 MPG/around town.  We have the
    captains chairs that way there the kids are "touching" each other.  So
    far so good.  We've had the van for 2 months and both my husband and I
    love driving this van that drives like a small car.
    
    We also test drove the Dodge Caravan, Nissan Quest and Ford Windstar.
    
    Good luck,
    Julie
    

    
    re: .58
    
    Julie - 
    
    Do you mean with the captain's chairs that the kids are or are NOT
    touching each other?   If it's not - that's a feature I hadn't
    thought of that might be quite valuable...
    
    cj/

    
    On a diversion to the above ... Jason was quite cranky this morning on
    the drive to school, and hollers out "Chris is LOOKING at me!"  I was
    in no mood for this stuff, so I just said back to Jason "Yeah, and he's
    breathing the same air as you too!".  Jason: "No he's not!" Me: "Yes he
    IS!"  Jason: "Well tell him to stop it!"
    
    Sigh.....!
    maybe they can re-invent the "airbag"?!
    

    .59 CJ   That's right.  The second row seats are two separate seats,
    that way "you are not on my side".  You don't need an imaginary line down
    the middle.  The third seat is a bench seat, so whoever sits there gets
    the seat to himself (usually the 13 year old).  Also a great feature in
    this van is the radio controls in the second row for two headphones. 
    They can listen to the radio or tape and if you don't want to you don't
    have to.
    
    I was never a "van person", always drove small cars.  Tried the Sable
    Wagon although a great car it is longer than this van and not as roomy.
    I compare the Villager to driving my VW Jetta, which is a fun car to
    drive.
    
    Julie
    
    
    

I have two friends with minivans giving us opposite advice -- one has
a voyager and says that they are very glad that they have rear heat/ac.
The other has a caravan with no rear heat/ac and says that it is fine.
I'm in New England.

Any opinions?

In addition to the voyager/caravan, we're also looking at the Mercury
Villager.

Thanks
Beryl

    I wouldn't get it without the rear heater/AC unit.  For one thing, the
    whole van heats up/cools down a lot quicker with both the front and
    rear units roaring.  And without the rear unit, you have to leave the
    front one on longer/higher to get the back comfortable. That means the
    people in front either roast or freeze til the ones in back are
    comfortable. And if your kids have a different body thermometer than
    you do, no one will be comfortable.  For instance, my son is always
    hot, so he never wants heat in the back while I'd freeze, so I usually
    run with it on for me. 
    
    I wouldn't get a van without it.
    
    Cathy

    Well, I don't have a mini-van, but even in the Hyundai, I wish it had
    separate heat!!  My older 2 kids are ALWAYS cold, and me and Jonathan
    are usually hotter than them.  But, since Jonathan's usually up front,
    (and obviously I ALWAYS am!), we're usually about melted by the time
    the older 2 have thawed out.  And to be fair, there's a lot more "air"
    in the back to change the temp of, then there is up front.
    
    Anyway, the annoying part, is that I end up driving with it a lot
    hotter than is comfortable for me, and that makes me sleepy - and
    that's never good.  Having the OPTION certainly can't be bad!  I don't
    have A/C, so can't really comment, but I'd suspect you'd find similar
    situations.
    
    I end up taking my coat off, and unzipping the baby, and giving the
    older 2 a blanket, and then find a happy medium w/ the heat (but geez
    what a pain!).
    
    

           <<< Note 680.64 by CLOUD9::WEIER "Patty, DTN 381-0877" >>>

>    Well, I don't have a mini-van, but even in the Hyundai, I wish it had
>    separate heat!!  
    
    Hyundai's have separate vents under the front seats that deliver air to
    the rear foot wells. Make sure there isn't anything under the front
    seats that are obstructing this flow. Just a thought.    

>    Hyundai's have separate vents under the front seats that deliver air to
>    the rear foot wells. Make sure there isn't anything under the front
>    seats that are obstructing this flow. Just a thought.    

    Our Colt Vista has vents going under the front seats also...and there
    is a lever you can throw to shut off this heat or to allow it
    to flow back there.  Its right under the front dashboard.
    bob

    
    Well, what you say about Hyundai's is partly true .... I have the base
    model, which doesn't have the rear seat ducts.  The model up from mine
    (whih my boyfriend has) does have the rear ducts.
    
    ... but I guess none of that matters anymore, because they don't make
    the Excel at all anymore!  It's been replaced with ??I forget the
    name?? - basically the same, but with enough changes that it deserved a
    new name, I guess.
    
    

We have an '87 GMC Safari van and when we bought it, we ordered it with just a
single bench - 5 passenger van.  After 105k miles we finally bought a used seat
out of a Chrysler minivan and bolted it in the 'way back'.  We had to make our
own brackets, but it wasn't that tough.

Anyway, now we have the orginal seat (now the middle one) facing backwards and
the new one forwards.  The kids like this configuration and it's nice knowing we
can carry 8 people in the van instead of just 5.

Dave

    We bought a Ford Windstar in May and are very happy with it.  It has a
    ton of room for both people and cargo.  It rides very comfortably and
    has many safety features (dual air bags, anti-lock brakes).
    
    We got the version with extra heating/air conditioning units in the
    rear.  It cooled the car down very nicely this summer.  We'll have to
    see what it's like this winter.  The fit and finish of the car seem
    better than the Caravans that our friends own.
    
    We have removed the third seat to give us the extra storage on a
    regular basis.  This was pretty easy to remove and carry.  For
    an example of the storage space, this weekend we went to my parents (a
    6-hour trip).  We carried a bike, a trike, 5 suitcases, 2 cases of
    beer, 6 pillows, 2 coolers, 5 or 6 bags of outgrown clothes to give
    away, toys, and the four of us.  And it wasn't crowded.  
    
    The only thing we feel that we are missing is the new driver's side
    door that the '96 Caravans have.  
    
    Also, we would get the console between the front seats phone-ready, and
    we would probably get captains chairs, rather than the middle bench. 
    This way the kids can't reach each other.  While I like it when they
    show affection, that seems to be outweighed by the need to torment each
    other.
    
    judy
    

    
    IF you can find it .... this past week in Seattle, we rented a
    Mitsubishi Expo, and fell in love with it.  It's a 7-passenger, and on
    the "smaller" side of mini-vans.  There isn't a whole lot of storage,
    but it's probably similar to a reg. size caravan.  4 doors, 2 front
    bucket seats, middle 3-person bench, rear 2-person bench.  It was a
    dream to drive, and didn't have *ANY* of the tippy feel that I've found
    with other mini vans.  To me it looks more like a sport-utility, but 
    they say it's classified as a mini-van.
    
    The problem?  It is not avaiable to the general public.  They were made
    for rentals, and for Mits. Execs.  The local Mits. dealer did happen to
    have 2 of them, from the execs.  Each had ~16k miles, and were asking about
    $16k.  Fully loaded.  New they run ~$23k loaded *IF* you could get one.
    And they won't be making them next year. )-:
    
    It's a really wonderful car - I'm really amazed that they're not going
    full steam ahead with production....!
    

>    IF you can find it .... this past week in Seattle, we rented a
>    Mitsubishi Expo, and fell in love with it.  It's a 7-passenger, and on
>    the "smaller" side of mini-vans.  There isn't a whole lot of storage,
>    but it's probably similar to a reg. size caravan.  4 doors, 2 front
>    bucket seats, middle 3-person bench, rear 2-person bench.

    This is the Colt Vista.
    It was sold by Plymouth/Dodge until the Caravan got real popular.
    Mitsubishi stopped making them for the public in '91.

    It comes with optional 4WD sort of like a 4WD suburu...just
    click a button and it's on and adding 4WD doesnt' cost much extra.

    In the late 80's they were only about 12-15K...but Mitsubishi
    made them flashier to compete with Caravans.  And Japanese
    options are VERY expensive.  I tried like H*LL to buy a new
    one recently and just could not.  And used ones are VERY rare
    since they no longer make them.

    I'm pretty depressed this car is gone.
    bob

    
    Isn't that funny .... several years ago I tried to buy a Colt Vista,
    but found I couldn't afford it - I loved it then, and apparantly my
    tastes haven't changed much!  I believe they discontinued it as an
    actual Vista in '94 or '95.  I'd never heard of it/seen it as an Expo.
    
    And we rented this puley green colored one, and I kept saying "BOY! 
    That'd look SO nice in red!" and drove into the dealership, and there
    was a fire engine red one right out front (screaming BUY ME!!).
    
    Do you know then, if the parts are interchangeable on the Expo and the
    Vista?
    
    THANKS!
    Patty

    
    The plot thickens .... from the Dodge dealer the story goes ...
    it was a Vista until '91 and then became an Eagle Summit, and then
    Eagle shrunk the Summit to a 5-passenger, and Mitsubishi marketed it
    for several years (to the public) as the Expo.  '95 is the last year
    for that, and the guy at Dodge said he tries to get them, but they go
    *REAL* fast when he can, and they're hard to find in the first place.
    
    Sigh.  .... but if you want one of those 2 expos, they're at the Mits.
    dealer in Nashua ... and if you get the red one, I might have to smack
    you (-; hahaha ....
    
    (and the previous message was supposed to say 'pukey', not puley...)
    

>    The plot thickens .... from the Dodge dealer the story goes ...
>    it was a Vista until '91 and then became an Eagle Summit, and then
>    Eagle shrunk the Summit to a 5-passenger, and Mitsubishi marketed it
>    for several years (to the public) as the Expo.  '95 is the last year
>    for that, and the guy at Dodge said he tries to get them, but they go
>    *REAL* fast when he can, and they're hard to find in the first place.

    Yep....Dodge continued to sell a car they call Colt Vista
    after '91, but it was really an Eagle Summit and only 5 passenger.
    I know people who have and really like this car...it still has
    the 4WD, but it has no third bench seat.

    I bought a nice '89 when my '86 with 150K miles was getting
    too rusty and tired.  When this one reaches that point, not sure
    what I will do.  Perhaps I'll find a nice '95 Expo.  I talked to
    Mitsubishi and the only way they could get one was to find
    an 'Expo' (with some other letters on the end..LRV?) that was a
    program car...(genrally meaning rental) and they were VERY scarce.
    I waited many months and finally bought this '89.
    good luck!
    bob

    With all of the gear we need to pack for our upcoming vacation, we're
    considering the purchase of a bike rack in order to conserve space in
    our Villager minivan. Can anyone recommend (or advise against) a
    particular model? Approx. price would also be helpful.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Freddie