Conference moira::parenting

    >>I'm sure that the boy thrives on the negative attention (sometimes 
    >>it's the only attention)
    
    Seems to me this is part of the key - he sees his sister getting
    attention (being smaller and needing more care) he sees his parents
    being busy with one another (i.e. fighting) and he sees that the 
    attention they are giving one another is the attention of conflict.
    
    I feel for this family - they need to get priorities in order.
    Resolve the discord, and see to the needs of their boy, before his
    behaviour inflicts permanent damage both on his sister and on his
    own spirit.
    
    Is there some other avenue of giving him the attention he needs
    individually (i.e. staying for a period of time or at a regular 
    time of day with someone) without conflict?
    
    Monica

re: "negative attention"

One technique is to give the attention to the person who is hurt, not the 
person who did the hurting.

But this situation sounds far, far, beyond that.  This sounds like a 
case for DSS intervention.  Quite frankly, it seems to me that if no 
counseling is being done, the boy, and perhaps both children would be better 
off in a foster home.  Abuse CAN also be perpetrated by siblings, especially 
when the older and stronger is a boy.

Clay  

    	I'm not sure that this is a case for DSS intervention.

    	I recently saw an Oprah show (oh here I go again with Oprah) where
    they described similar behavior in what was termed difficult children.
    A few people described incidents that were very similar - one mother
    told how her 3? year old was downright mean to the younger sibling and
    once actually held the younger one's hand to a hot radiator. The show,
    unfortunately, did not go into detail of how to handle this.

    	I think that many things are going on in this household of which I
    speak, the boy (and perhaps both children) is a difficult child. Short
    attention span, hyperactive, not one to sleep much, very sensitive and
    quick to be upset. I think that part of this may be his personality as
    there very definitely seems to be a "difficult" personality.

    	Obviously different parenting skills are needed for that kind of a
    child as opposed to say, my kids who appear to be very mellow and easy
    going.

    	Obviously the home situation is difficult and adds another
    dimension but there is real love in this household for the children and
    they are well cared for.

    	This is not a case of abuse or neglect as much as it is a case of
    unlearned skills in which to parent, manage, and cope.

    	I've lent the book Siblings without Something, can't remember the
    title now but it's by the same people who wrote How to listen..... but
    that book addresses the issue with older children.

    	I think that one key is to be consistent with establishing
    boundaries. When we recently babysat for these people and they came
    back I told them that the boy had thrown one toy at the girl when he
    had gotten upset. The response was "oh really, only one toy?" Now I can
    appreciate exasperation, and I can certainly appreciate humor but this
    indicated to me that perhaps there appeared to be some inconsistency in
    handling this problem. Of course it would not have helped to punish the
    child after the fact either.

    	What we did when he threw the toy was to hold him, tell him that
    we loved him very much but that we did not throw toys in this house. We
    tried to have him kiss the girl but that did not go over well and so we
    kept them apart. This is what we do with Spencer and Griffin when they
    are at odds either with themselves or with us.

    	Perhaps that kind of approach is not useful with "difficult" (I'm
    not trying to use a label as much as I am trying to use an appropriate
    description to the personality) children, I don't know.

    				Wendy

    
        I don't know if I can be of any help, but it really breaks my heart
    to heart of children like this. My youngest had a very hard time with
    his temper and got pretty scarey to me. His pediatrition said he was
    obviously hyperactive and maybe should be on medication. I didn't want
    to do that.
    
        He did things like,
    
        Try to climb out a 3rd floor window because I told him he couldn't
    go outside.
        He saw a cowboy and indian program and got a knife and snuck up
    on his brother and was going to stab him.
        He would stick knifes into the wall plugs and get shocked, yell,
    then do it again.
        He saw The Hulk and would get angry and hold his breath and say he
    was going to turn into the Hulk and get me for not letting him get his
    way.
    
        When he almost burned the house down I was desperate. Tried
    counseling etc. Then I saw this program that may have saved his life
    and ours. I can't remember the name of the program but it talked about
    articficial additives and colors. That some children became hyper and
    actually dangerous when they consumed products. I started reading
    labels and only gave him natural juices. Natural foods only. It worked
    for him. Apparently some children have some sort of allergic reaction.
    
       He no longer played with the stove. He started sleeping, and I
    started sleeping better too. I used to sleep on the floor with him when
    he would fianlly fall asleep. I wouldn't dare move him and I didn't
    dare move because I wanted to be there when he woke up. I couldn't
    leave him for a second. These children can be a drain on you.
    
       Once my sister gave him a waffle that came frozen and he immediately
    after eating it started running around like crazy. He was only about
    3 or 4 years old. She said to me "He's definately allergic or something
    to the artificial coloring or additive." So the rest of the family made
    sure not to give hime any of it, no candy either.
    
    
       I don't know if this will help but it helped me.
    
         Take care and good luck to this family.
    
       Rose Marchand
    
    
    
    

It sounds to me like this family is in need of services to help them improve 
their situation.  Perhaps a home health aide or parenting aide would help.  
The aide would come into the home two or three times per week and teach
parenting skills, including discipline techniques.  They might also be able
to help the parents figure out how to protect the baby from the older child.
It is crucial that they provide that protection if they do not want to 
lose their daughter.

I think that parenting aides are generally available through counseling 
agencies or Visiting Nurses Associations.  That's the way it is in Worcester,
MA anyway.  If this family can't afford to get a parenting aide on their 
own, they can apply to DSS for voluntary services to get the help that 
they need.

                                               Tracy

>        I'm not sure that this is a case for DSS intervention.

You're probably right.  My previous note was poorly thought out.  Ordinarily 
I'd delete, edit, and re-enter it, but since you've replied, I won't.  I do 
believe that if nothing is done, that it very well may become a case for DSS, 
though, for the sake of the girl.  Nobody should live in fear of her own 
family.

>        I think that many things are going on in this household of which I
>    speak, the boy (and perhaps both children) is a difficult child. Short
>    attention span, hyperactive, not one to sleep much, very sensitive and
>    quick to be upset. I think that part of this may be his personality as
>    there very definitely seems to be a "difficult" personality.

Add difficulty in controlling impulses, which you've implied by your previous 
note, and you've also described a child who may have ADHD, which can be 
"adjusted to" by behavior modification (both by the parents and the child) 
but cannot really be treated by behavior modification.  Most experts believe 
that this a genetic and/or organic problem, not one of environment, so even 
the best parenting will not eliminate the problem.  In fact, even the 
situation you describe with the parents attitude is not unusual in ADHD 
families.  Since it is genetic, often one of the parents has the same 
problem, so they tend to (often unconsciously) sympathize with the child.  I 
am NOT diagnosing from a distance; I DO think that it is something that they 
should look into, though.  Does the pediatrician have any opinion?

re: .4

I have great respect for your views, but I must say that I think that 
properly administered and supervised medication can often make a very 
positive difference, with few, if any, negative consequences.

Clay

Regrettably, Wendy, I think that as long as there is marital strife in that
family, it will be extremely difficult for these children to relate to one
another in a sensiible manner and for any treatment to be effective.

Your example of the "I'm sorry" is an indication that he has been forced
to say the words without knowing the meaning.  Generally speaking, when
a child does something inappropriate, until they have reached an age where
they actually understand the concept of "sorry" it is pointless, and even
damaging ot force a child to say it.  The result being that as the years
go by the words will continue to be virtually meaningless.  Let's be honest,
the child is obviously NOT sorry ... it is just a way of avoiding more harsh
punishment ... the words are used for mum and dad's hearing, not for any
true remorse towards the sister.

This is similar to the idea of forcing a kid to share until they are able to
understand the concept of giving being worthwhile.

I don't believe the situation would fall under the category of child abuse
in terms of  SPCCs  (Societies for the Protection of Cruelty to Children ...
in your area the DSS), but it is unfortunately one that many parents fall 
through the cracks in society.  It is evident that they will be lacking
parenting skills, since they obviously lack the relationship skills to
build a successful marriage.

As an outsider, I don't know what you could do, unless you are on good terms
with the mother or father, and can suggest they actually have him tested for
hyperactivity etc.  And even that may go down like a ton of bricks, giving
you the label of interfering busybodies.

Sadly, parental love for children doesn't get past inter-partner conflicts,
and pride and all kinds of other emotional turmoil in such households.

Stuart

    This is almost the same situation that I found out was going on with
    a friend of mine.  Her 2ish year old son was taking a bath with 
    his 1ish sister and the phone rang.  Their dad left the bathroom 
    for quick second to answer the phone and when he returned to the
    bathroom his son was holding his daughter under the water - had
    he not known CPR she wouldn't be here today.
    
    This is a family that is 'happy' - no fighting etc.  I understand he
    has tried to do this same thing by crawling into her crib and using
    a pillow but has been stopped before anything happened.  
    
    They are also at wits end.  It's scarry..

While the idea of a parenting aide is laudible, it requires the parents
to realize that *they* have a problem, and as long as they are focussed
on the problems of each other (obviously, if they are fighting so much)
they are unlikely to look at themselves as being part of their child's
problems.  I would imagine that "ownership" of the child is passed one
to the other at the moment e.g.

   "Can't you control your kid!"  
   "He's your kid too"

But, it's worth suggesting ...

Stuart

    
    	All of these points are well made, although I would love to suggest
    that the child be taken to a pediatrician, or that the parents actively
    search for counseling or parenting solutions, I realize that I run the
    risk of appearing meddlesome.
    
    	There is no clear abuse and so "technically" there is no real
    problem (I certainly don't see it this way but society does). I have
    suggested techniques that I have heard about, I even suggested that
    they talk to the pediatrician or maybe a family counselor about this. I
    can not force anyone to do anything. 
    
    	I know that *I* have certainly made and will continue to make
    mistakes in parenting and some of how I will learn will be due in part
    to those mistakes. Perhaps these mistakes are needed before an
    acknowledgement can be made within that family, sort of like hitting
    bottom - at least you can start to come up from there.
    
    	It's one thing for me to acknowledge that I make mistakes and take
    responsibility for mistakes, it's far and away another thing to point
    out the mistakes of others (am I just being judgmental?)
    
    	And so this raises a real issue, just how responsible are we to be
    to other's children as a whole? Support, a dock in the storm, patience,
    waiting until the event happens in which no one can no longer turn
    their heads?
    
    			Wendy

<                      <<< Note 672.10 by SUPER::WTHOMAS >>>
    
<    	There is no clear abuse 

Not from the parents, Wendy, from the child.  Throwing a baby down a set of
stairs is abusive and has the potential to be fatal.  The baby needs to be
protected somehow.  I'm not recommending DSS, either, but *something*
needs to be done to protect that baby before he does kill her or permanently
damages her.

I agree with you that it is a sticky situation.  It is not socially acceptable
to do more than make a suggestion or two, and even that is frowned upon.  Yet
we need to protect the baby.  I wish I could give you an answer myself.  
I tend to do things that I think are right, at the risk of a friendship.
I suppose that I would talk with them more seriously, alone.  Try to take it
from a "I'm on your side" approach, and express my real concerns about the
baby's safety.  Then ask how *they* plan to fix the problem, before real
damage is done.

     Carol

    The problems of a family like this seem to fall between the cracks
    of the support mechanisms of our society.  Where they are just holding
    the family together (and often say that they are doing it "for the
    sake of the children" ... when they may actually do the children less
    harm to separate!) and the children are not actually abused in most
    normally accepted senses.
    
    Wendy, your worries are valid, but to misquote an old variant on a 
    prayer ...
    
    God, give me the strength to change those things I can change,
    the ability to accept those I cannot change,
    and the wisdom to know the difference.
    
    So, really all you can do, is to do those things you can, and be
    ready and willing to takee the needed steps as and when you can
    and until then just keep an eye on the situation and not get yourself
    too upset by this unfortuante situation.
    
    Stuart

    In order for the parents to seek help, they need to realize there is a
    problem.  My sister sought counseling when she and her husband had
    problems with their pre-teen.  They were shown some areas where their
    own parenting styles caused some of the conflict.  Now understand, the
    child is far from perfect and the parents are very happily married. 
    The child just wanted conflict and created some.  I don't know if this
    is the case with your friends, but after struggling for so long, it has
    finally been determined the pre-teen has ADD.  She is on medication,
    which is helping.  Some of her behaviours needs to be changed still,
    but on the whole there is a sense if relief and no so much
    helplessness.
    
    -sandy
    

I think what you have to decide, Wendy, is how
far you are willing to go.  These people clearly
have a problem, which only *they* can solve.

It reminds me of alcoholism, in that only the
alcoholic can fix it.

What these people need to do is realize that
their personal problems are preventing them from
addressing a more important issue - the safety
and well-being of their kids.


In alcoholism, the standard technique is an intervention.
The people important to the alcoholic sit down
with him/her, usually with a counselor to keep things
civilized.  Then each individual tells the alcoholic
how his/her behavior has effected them.  No begging,
no pleading, no requests to change, just the basic
facts of how alcoholism is effecting the relationship.
That's all.  It is still the alcoholic's responsibility 
to change or not to change.

This situation is similar, however, the people most
effected are incapable of sitting down and telling
their story (the kids).  So, they need some advocates.

Here's what you can do - you can gather the parent's
closest people, arrange babysitting for the kids, and
sit down and tell them what you see and how it makes you
feel.  You run the risk of losing their friendship
forever, but then again maybe not.  Depends on how
you go about telling them how you feel.  (After all,
the best friends are the ones who tell you the unpleasant
truth, and are still your friends afterwards.)

Consider this as a possibility.  It takes courage and
loving.  You may not be comfortable entering into that
level of friendship.

Pat

    MAYBE I'm way off base here, but if you re-read the base note, we're
    talking about a 2 year old child here.  It doesn't seem to me that this
    child's behavior is at all intentional.  The fact that he seems to
    express remorse - and isn't just "resentfully" sorry - would tell me
    that maybe there's more going on with him, than meets the eye.
    
    There have been *WAY* too many cases, especially lately, of extreme
    physical violence, as a reaction to an allergy.  I'm sorry, but I find
    it very hard to believe that Mom and Dad yelling at each other is going
    to make a small child try to kill another child.  THAT is not a normal
    reaction.  
    
    Wendy, have you seen this boy "in action"?  I would venture to guess
    that he seems fine, then something a little "weird" happens in his
    world (he doesn't get his way, some sort of "conflict"), and he just
    completely explodes as a result of it, has a *FIT* for a while, and
    then calms down and is back to his "normal" self again for a while.  Is
    this close to his actions??
    
    As a friend, other friends may accept "information".  If you're afraid
    of seeming meddlesome, you could mail it anonymously.  Go to your local
    library and look in the periodicals about allergic reactions, and see
    what you can find.  There have also been several talk shows covering
    the subject lately, where kids will get up and testify that they would
    go TOTALLY nuts, violent, for no known reason.  Once they were put on a
    very basic, healthy diet, they were fine.  Copy the articles that seem
    to apply to this family, and drop them by her house.
    
    If you come up with something that takes the "blame" off of them as
    parents, I think you'll find a much more receptive audience.  And
    they're probably too embarassed to ask for help, so I wouldn't wait for
    them to come to you.
    
    Maybe Mom and Dad are arguing because of their son - which came first??
    
    I *DEFINITELY* wouldn't ignore it though - someone could get seriously
    injured, or even killed, and if that happened, you'd certainly wish
    later that you'd "meddled" now.
    
    Good Luck!

    Actually I was fortunate to be able to spend an extended amount of time
    with this family when we recently lost our electricity for a day and
    one half. Let me stress again, that these people are good friends of
    ours (and certainly came to our rescue in allowing our entire family to
    move in with them).

    I was able to see the boy in action for the entire day. I think that
    the previous note that indicated lack of impulse control is right on.
    When the boy is tired or over stimulated, he flies off, not just at the
    sister but whoever is around, Spencer is a big kid and this boy at
    times would get so excited that he would actually push Spencer down in
    his excitement.

    	There is obviously a jealously aspect, but what I saw was a lot of
    fighting over bottles, who has what toy, etc. I saw anger over an
    incident and not necessarily anger directly at the girl for no reason.
    (slight but important difference).

    	From what I know, the boy (and perhaps both kids) could very well
    fit into the ADD category but I hesitate to classify them. I do know
    that the boy is very active and talks (rambles) constantly (I am amazed
    at his vocabulary), it is almost as if he is always "on". Even if one
    of my children were diagnosed as ADD *I* would be very reluctant to use
    any kind of medication on one so young, but then I admit that I don't
    live with the problem and and such, am not qualified to pass judgment.

    	As far as allergies, I've shared some information with them mostly
    about milk allergies, (since we have that as a very real problem in our
    house). The information is not being well received but to be perfectly
    honest, neither is it being well received by *my* kid's pediatricians.
    Food and chemical allergies are just too off the wall for some people
    to accept.
    	
    	I speak with the mother all the time (not just about the kids but
    about life as well) she opens up, we share frustrations. I get the
    impression that she is keeping her eye on the situation but does not
    really know what to do. I have offered some of the suggestions from
    this notes string and she is "considering them".


    	Thank you all for your input.

    				Wendy

    	

First I want to say something to Wendy. These folks are lucky to have such
a caring and supportive friend. Now for a couple of questions and comments.

Is the boy "at home" all the time? Are there other kids besides his sister
for him to interact with? Is there a daycare or preschool situation?

Part of this sounds like a lack of social interaction with other kids. 
It also sounds like classic ADHD. I would advise the parents of this
child to contact their local school department and ask for an evaluation
of the child when he reaches his 3rd birthday. At the same time I would
ask the child's pediatrician for referal information to local specialists
in ADD/ADHD. If you are in Massachusetts you may also be able to obtain
this information from the local school department.  I would also
encourage you to read through the notes on ADD/ADHD and on how to access
services in the LEARNING_DISABILITIES notesfile.