Conference moira::parenting

    One of the problems with older children is they have already
    established their patterns of thinking -- parents have little 
    influence on their value system by that time.
    I would almost suggest outside help in this case, since I am assuming
    both you and your parents have made little impact on the thinking
    of your brothers.
    Is there some person in the family or the community (possibly
    counseling) that would get them to see your parents point of view?
    
    Monica

    When you figure out how to make your parents stop giving them money
    will you let me know.

    I have a brother who will be 36.  He still lives at home with Mom.  He
    has a drinking problem.  Was sober for a long time.  Even got a
    wonderful job.  But quit because he is so impatience.

    Mom bails him out of every situation.  She pays almost all of his
    bills.  This makes me crazy.  I am a year younger and have the whole
    life.  I have a husband, two children the dog and a really nice house. 
    We have worked very hard for what we have.  No one has helped us.

    This past summer (like many previous) we went to my Mom's best friends
    condo at the beach.  This was our family vacation.  My mother told my
    brother that it would be OK for him to come and stay with us without
    even asking.  Well, both my husband and I had a big problem with him
    staying there.  He is drinking again, and I don't just mean social.

    When we arrived on Saturday, there was a note from my brother telling
    me to come and look for him to give him a key.  Well, needless to say,
    my husband was ferrous.  He told me that I had a choice either my
    brother stayed or he left.  What would you all have done?  Anyway, my
    brother realized that it was a problem that he was there and said he
    would find another place to stay. (He was there for a softball
    tournament)

    Well, when we arrived home I called my mother.  She was acting very
    cold towards me.  I asked what was wrong.  She said, "I can't believe
    that you threw your brother out!"  "Where did you think he was going to
    stay?"  "You know he slept in his truck."  

    She still to this day does not understand that this was an imposition
    on our family vacation.  She says that she knows this was all of my
    husbands doing.  

    Now my brother will not speak to my husband.  If we go to my Mom's, my
    brother will leave.  Now my mother wants my husband to apologize to my
    brother.  My husband said it will be a cold day in h***.  He hasn't
    done anything wrong.

    So I guess my point is,  that it never changes.  My mother will still
    be taking care of my brother after she is dead and gone.  But she
    doesn't see it.  If you can get your Mom and Dad to realize that they
    are giving away everything that they have, maybe things will change. 
    But is very hard.  My mother thinks she is helping my brother.

    Well,  I will get down off of my soap box.  Good Luck to you and your
    parents.

    
    Tell your parents to pay the tuition directly and nothing else. If they
    want the education bad enough they'll find a way, and your parents
    haven't renegged on their promise to pay for school.

my opinion:

this isn't your problem.  It is your
parent's problem and your parents are
grown-ups.  They can choose to give your
brothers money or they can choose not to.
They are very much aware of their financial
problems, and they continue supply your
brothers habits.  It is their choice.

However, one thing you need to make clear
to your parents is the extent of your
ability to support them when they can
no longer work.  If they spend it all
now hoping your brothers will support
them later, they'll be coming to you
for help.

I would find a tactful way to express your
concern - that you are worried about their
future and whether you will be able to 
handle the whole financial future yourself.
And then leave it alone.

good luck - this family stuff can be hard.

Pat

What is the current student loan program like?  If your brothers are full time
students can they get a student loan?  This would enable them to push the debt
out until they graduate.  Getting them past graduation might just be the start
of the hand outs...  If they realize they will be paying back their tuition
after they graduate it might turn them around.  I realize this is would mean
your parents would have to take back their promise of paying for their
education, but it might be a way of at least getting your brothers through
college.

I also echo the previous note, your parents are grown ups, it's their
responsibility to manage their money.

Dave

    I have to agree with the others about your parents choices.  My first
    thought as I read your note was "Do your parents want to change things"
    if they do it's up to them to stop the gravy train.  At the ages your
    brothers are at there is no way I would give them one cent - if they
    don't "make something of themselves" it certainly isn't your fault or
    your parents.  At a certain age we all become responsible for ourselves
    - no matter what our upbringing was like.  Sounds like your brothers
    haven't figured that out and your parents don't want to tell them.
    
    I think this is your parents problem and they are the ones who have to
    create change - not the boys - they will do what they have to do out of
    necessity.
    
    Caveat - I am not the parent of able-bodies independent children nor do
    I play one on TV....
    
    -sandy
    

    I really like .4's opinion.  I have a sister-in-law who is 28 and
    still living at home ... working only occasionally and always looking
    for a loan.  My in-laws have always enabled her to live like this and
    they will as long as they live (they are already in their mid-70s).
    
    My husband and I (and his 3 brothers) have tried talking to his
    parents about the situation but get nowhere.  We have tried talking to
    his sister (just imagine how quick she is to give this wonderful
    lifestyle she has) and she accuses her siblings of being jealous.
    
    My opinion with these types of situations is that in some strange,
    weird way, the parents enjoy this type of relationship.  I'm not
    convinced that its control but I do think they like being depended on
    no matter how much they protest.
    
    BTW, we did tell my hubby's parents that we love them very much and 
    we can even provide them living space if it should ever be needed ...
    but we made it very clear that the offer stood for the two of them
    only ... well maybe their cat, too.
    
    Again, I think you wanna keeping reading .4 until it sinks in.
    
    

	I guess I win this round for the oldest deadbeat brother (40).
	Yep, Mom and Dad financially support him and his 11 year old
	daughter. He's been divorced twice and each time they helped
	him pay off his ex wives so he can keep the house they made the
	down payment on.......

	A few years ago, I was so frustrated with the whole situation
	that *I* talked to a counselor recommended by EAP.  The counselor's
	opinion was that it was basically codependency.  She didn't believe
	that any of them could break this long cycle (40 years) without
	professional help.  *But* I could stay out of the vicious circle.

    	
		o  Thanked mom and dad for giving me the tools to
		   be self-sufficient and independant.  We are all
		   great friends and important in eachothers' lives.

		o  I told my parents (its mostly Mom perpetuating this)
		   that I loved them and I loved my brother, but I *HATE*
		   the relationship that they have with him.  Please leave
		   me out of all rescue situations.

	        o  I told my brother that I love him and that Mom and Dad's
		   obligation to support him financially is silly.  From
		   now on, *I* am discontinuing all enabling behavior.

	        o  I declared myself a neutral party in this whole mess.

	The saga continues without me as an active participant.  


Rochelle

    
    Bravo! Rochelle.
    
    
    Jodi-who_has_a_31_year_old_"near-do-well"_brother_with_
         no_living_parents_to_support_him.(he knows I won't)
         

    Rochelle,
    
    I think I've got you beat.  My brother is 52 and the worlds oldest
    adolescent.  
    
    I came to the attitude that I am out of the rescue loop about 4 years
    ago.  My mother hasn't been able to stop herself from rescuing him from
    his own problems yet, but I no longer get angry about it.  she has been
    doing this too long to change now, although she admits that she
    probably isn't really helping him learn to stand on his own two feet.  
    
    My major concern will be what will happen to him and his sons if mom
    outlives him.  I love him, but I don't have the resources or the
    attitude to help him at the expense of my own kids.
    
    Meg

    What .4 and .8 said.
    
    Make it clear _you're_ not part of the gravy train, and otherwise
    stay out of the situation.
    
    And practice saying "No" for the time your parents die and the
    dependent siblings call you for a "temporary" loan.  'Cause it
    will happen.
    
    And be clear about what you'll do for your own kids, when they
    get bigger.  This society isn't good at helping people make the
    transition from dependent child to independent adult, so I plan
    to look for ways to help my kids (summer jobs, time away from
    home, appropriate funding).  As an example, my parents paid for
    the "big" college bills, but I was on my own for "small" stuff
    like clothes, books, and entertainment--so I worked in the food
    service all four years, and got jobs in the summertime. In 
    retrospect this was a big help in setting my expectations.
    
    			-John Bishop

Re:  school loans

	Actually, they both have school loans since my parents cannot
	afford to pay for their schooling right now.  They will pay
	the loans when the time comes though.

	Its just their spending money... "C" called my parents to ask
	for $125 to pay his tuition bill for the month (the rest being
	covered by school loans and grants).  He'll call again at the
	end of the month for another $200 to pay for this months rent!

re:  not part of the gravy train

	I have no intention of giving them free handouts.  I had an
	idea though for "C"... I'm going to call him tonight, over him
	10 hours work stripping some chairs for $100.  He can take it
	or leave it but he has to take it this weekend if he wants it.
	This is a chore I want done and I've started but refuse to finish
	since I'm pregnant and my husband would rather buy new chairs
	than tackle this one (their antiques though!).  I'm willing to
	pay somebody to do them and why not pay my own brother.  He
	will not get the money for free though!

re: parents dying.  

	Mine are only in their 50's so hopefully that is a long way
	off.  Knowing their situation, I can't see them going through
	their entire wealth in support of my brothers.  

re: parents "liking" this sort of situation....

	Well, Dad is back on his heart medication partly due to this
        stress (is having anxiety attacks).  Mom is ticked off about 
	working for $8 an hour then sending the money to my brothers.
	They are not happy.  They have also started to realize that they
	are enabling.  This is great progress, even if I have been
	aware of what they were doing for years, they have only just
	become aware that they are part of the problem.

re: my own children

	MY OWN CHILDREN WILL NEVER GET AWAY WITH THIS!!  Not after
	what I've seen it do to my brothers and parents!

re: all of your notes..

	Thanks for your notes....  I guess I really didn't get any answers
	but I'm not sure there are any.  My parents have to get "C" through 
	this year at Johnson and Wales.  After that, I think they may become 
	less enabling.  

	Oh... BTW, "C"'s next trimester in J&W is a working one.  He can
	either work for nothing and stay in Providence or take a paying co-op 
	job which are in states quite far away.  "C" offered this alternative
	to my parents....  He told them he could get a Co-op job on Marco
	Island if he could live with them.  My parents told him no way!
	This is progress, I think, however they may have to give him more
	money instead.

	Gotta go!

	Karen

    As a person who is 9 and 13 years older than my younger 
    brothers, I have been called upon on several occasions
    to help my brothers out. Our mother died when they were
    teens.  Dad died when they were in their 20s.  Since I 
    have a family and responsibilities of my own, I have aways 
    made it my policy to never loan money to *anyone* (family 
    or friend).  I am an honest person that hates to be ripped 
    off. And if I wasn't repaid in a timely fashion, I'd have 
    a real problem with it. I have so little family as it is, 
    I'd really suffer if I started having bad feelings about any
    of them.
    
    What I do offer is sage advice, books (I've given out many 
    copies of a paperback book called "The Richest Man in Babylon")
    and time.  My 26 year old brother came to me last year because
    his student loans had surpassed $10,000 and he needed to start
    paying them back ASAP.  My advice to him was to find a better
    paying job.  I did up a new resume for him and helped him
    network.  He now has a great paying job and is doing something
    he enjoys.
    
    My other brother who is now 31 and has never held a job for more
    than 6 months is more troublesome.  He wanted me to pay his rent
    so he, his wife and daughter wouldn't get kicked out of their
    apartment.  I didn't.  Instead, we talked at length about money,
    personality (his is volatile), careers that would suit his 
    personality (acting, writing, entertainment) books to read and 
    tapes to listen to.  
    
    He now works at Lakeshore rock concerts on a regular basis.  
    This works well for him because he doesn't have to keep a day to 
    day job. He works weekends and some weeknights. Is in an enviroment 
    that excites him enough to be careful how he behaves and lets him be
    the social animal he is. 
    
    It's OK to enable people as long as there is a lesson you are
    teaching in the process.  
    
    Give them the tools not the finished product.
    
    Jodi-

    Jodi,
    
    It looks like you are of the teach a person to fish, than handing over
    your fish type.  I don't consider this "enabling," as you are giving a
    long-term solution, rather than short-term help.
    
    Meg

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I have an aunt who was fairly dependent on her parents (my grandparents,
obviously) for support.  She did have a variety of jobs (mainly in two fields,
and she continues to be employed in one of those fields today, which does 
show some stability), but she never stayed away from 'home' for long.  She 
always looked to her parents not only for advice, but decisions.  She never
married so when my grandparents died it was difficult for her to let go.

She has gotten more independent as she approaches 65, and seems to be
financially stable, but more from what my grandparents left her than what she
saved on her own.  Something I find strange on one hand, but a relief on the 
other is that she is actually planning her ability to get into a nursing/rest 
home when she turns 65.  

She has been kind of a drain on my mother (her sister) and father, inviting 
herself over when other members of the family are staying over and constantly 
complaining about her job.  But she's mellowed somewhat because my father 
isn't as 'understanding' as her parents were.

Now, what I'm trying to relate is possibly the other end of the situation your
brothers are in.  I'm not sure how much financial support my aunt received in
her early years, but she never went out on her own and was very dependent on
her parents.  This sounds like what could be happening with your brothers to
some extent.  I'm seeing what happens to this type of person when their
'support' goes away and when they reach out try and find some more support
from someone else.

I like my aunt, but she is seen by the family as a moocher and a complainer.  A
little more independence might have given her the confidence and experience to
have a different kind of life. 

    Why not send them JUST enough money for bare necessities. Room, tuition
    and JUST enough money for a barely adequate diet.  No frills beyond
    that. Period. 
    
    Actually I think the best answer is for your parents to STOP supporting
    them! Thats the problem, they have supported them too long, and the
    results are quite apparent aren't they?
    
    They could taper the money off... not cold turkey them. For example,
    $1000.00 the first month $ 800.00 the second $ 600.00 the third etc.
    
    But, I believe that your parents are as much a part of the problem
    as the 'boys' are.  Until they are forced to be men they will
    remain boys.
    
    The boys have had life far too easy... thats why their attitudes are so 
    poor.  How can they appreciate things they didn't have to earn????
    
    It would take guts to cut them off from their income. Guts from
    your parents that is.  The parents had (or hadn't) done their job when
    the boys hit 18.  Now it SHOULD be up to the boys to sink or swim.
    
    Jeff

    MY sister lived off my parents until well into her 30's when she
    finally got married.  My Dad approached me with the question: "How
    do I break her off from my support, its a problem for me continuing
    to do this?"  I suggested he taper off her funds from him and force to
    take care of herself.  He didn't (couldn't) do it.  Ok, well then its
    his problem I figured.  She got married and the problem went away.
    
    But this is primarily an issue between the parents and the boys. The
    ideas for student loans, or paying tuition ONLY seems a reasonable
    compromise to me.  It sounds as if the boys will take all they can get
    so the idea is to limit what they get to an 'appropriate' amount.
    
    Who says they HAVE to get through college anyway?  It doesn't sound as 
    if they aren't getting their parents moneys worth anyway.
    
    Your best bet IMO would be to limit YOUR involvement in this to exactly
    how if effects YOU.  That is, your concerns for their future and your
    ability to help them financially. You can be sure your brother AREN'T
    going to help....... unless they grow up some....... and the way its 
    going it sure doesn't sound as if they are going to with all that
    financial aid.
    
    Jeff