Conference moira::parenting

    Its odd that you bring this up now.  My sitters daugter was just tested
    for it two days ago.  They said to keep her isolated, but my two kids
    have already been exposed.  She/we are waiting to get the results back,
    it will take a week.  For her sake and ours I hope it is negative.  I have
    a 4.5 month old and a almost 4 year old going to her.  You said it was 
    dangerous for infants, do you know why?  Now I am even more concerned.
    
    Robin

    Usually because the associated fever may quickly result in
    convulsions ... the bigger the child, the better the "heat sink" an
    dmore
    stable temperature changes are.
    
    Stuart

    I thought the greater threat to newborns and infants was the
    constant coughing. It's so violent that it jars the tiny brain.
    
    Or...it could be both the fever and the cough...
    
    Susan Chadsey (are you still at Digital?) experienced Whooping
    Cough with her preterm infant daughter. A truly terrifying 
    situation as I recall.
    
    Jodi-

    I don't think so Jodi ... because there are lots of other ailments
    that can generate heavy coughing that are not considered life
    threatening.  Worse than the cough of whooping cough is its
    characteristic "whoop" wheeze in between coughing fits.  
    
    Stuart (who actually survived whooping cough at about 13 weeks ...
    after influenza at 6 weeks ... it's a miracle I made it!!!!  You
    don't want to hear the list of things I survived as a child!!!)

    Just heard last night that a friend's infant has pertussis, supposedly
    received from the father who is a doctor that has been treating patients
    with pertussis !  This is in Colorado Springs.  

    Uh people,
    
    Sounds like a very good reason to keep up with your childs
    innoculations.  While not 100% effective, the DPT does help prevent
    this disease.  For those who are concerned about the side effects of
    the vaccinne: they are the same side-effects that a child can get from 
    the disease.  the proble, with pertussis is that the reactions to the
    vvirus are much worse, as we are talking about a healthy, alive and
    kicking whole virus, instead of weakened fragments.
    
    Meg

    What worries me is that there appears to be a significant
    population of adults who may have pertussis and are not
    getting diagnosed....and who are infectious to infants.

    Innoculations are great, but your immune level is low until you
    have at least two and sometimes three injections.

    I believe that Pertussis causes an inflamation of the windpipe, causing
    it to swell.  This is what causes the 'whoop' in young children.
    When you are older, the swelling doesn't close the pipe as much, and it
    seems like just a cough.

    When you are very young, it will completely seal off the windpipe.

    My friends were told that the Pertussis test was $100.  My wife's
    cousin claims that the Mass Dept. of Health will do it for free.
    Not sure what the real story is.  But it sounds like there is Pertussis out
    there.
    bob

    Yes, I am still working for Digital, my last day is scheduled for Nov.
    19.  
    
    Heather, my preterm baby, contracted whooping cough, 1 1/2 weeks after
    coming home from the NICU.  She caught whooping cough from her older
    sister.  
    
    The coughing caused Heathers heart rate to drop to zero.  This is scary
    enough, but it also caused her to vomit.  She aspirated the vomit and
    went into cardic arrest.  She spent a month at U-mass hospital.  To say
    the least the experience was miserable.
    
    Heather had recieved 2 of the DPT innoculations.  They are finding that
    older children's (10 +) innoculations are no longer effective.  There
    were  2 documented cases in Athol that year.  (1988)  I believe the
    entire Junior High had it that year.  
    
    
    susan
       

    My son had whooping cough at age 1 1/2 (he's now 13).  I remember
    waking to see his rib cage raising as he gasped for breath.  His
    windpipe just about swelled shut.  We raced him to Baltimore City
    Hospital, they couldn't treat him there so he was transferred by
    ambulance to Johns Hopkins in downtown Baltimore.  From there I
    experienced the worst 2 week nightmare of my life.   Basically he had
    to be put on a respirator, he could not breathe on his own.  Being the
    age he was he also had to be paralyzed by injection and sedated by
    valium to keep him from pulling out his tubes and from being scared out
    of his little mind not being able to move.  THis medication that
    paralyzed him would only be effective for an hour, consequently a toe
    would begin to move as it wore off, as soon as it did he was injected
    again.  Periodically the nurses had to clear out his lungs by removing
    the respirator and suctioning, each time this occurred he wouldn't be
    able to breathe.  The worst part of this whole thing was that even
    though he couldn't move (not even an eyelash), tears would fall from
    his closed eyes.  This was the worst thing that a parent could go
    through, so I suggest you have your children innoculated and watch them
    carelfully if they do get sick.

    The cough from Whooping Cough is really unique.   My Sarah (13 when she
    got this) would cough really hard and as she would suck in air for the
    next cough she would make this whooping sound.  Each coughing session
    would last a few minutes.   She would turn beet red each time she would
    have one of these coughing sessions.
    
    There was a kid in her school, (she sat behind this kid), who was
    coughing so hard that he would pass out.   This kid was probally the
    kid my daughter caught the whooping cough from.  
    
    susan 
    

    The nurse at our local doctor's has just tested positive
    for pertussis.  Her son also likely will test positive.

    I talked to her yesterday about how her son is doing.
    He's a senior in high school.  About a month ago, he was
    rushed to the hospital unable to breath.  He had been
    coughing on and off during the summer.  It was thought
    to be just a 'cough' that he was having a hard time
    shaking.  At the hospital, they found he had a large
    tumor in his windpipe...they suspected cancer.  The
    doctors biopsied it and found it in not cancer, most
    likely it is 'just' a large tumor as a result of all
    the coughing.  They cant remove it without very major
    chest cavity type surgery (separting his rip cage like
    open heart surgery).  He will likely have this tumor
    for life, and the doctors are trying to shrink it with
    steroids.

    The latest info she had from the Mass Dept. of Public Health
    showed a lot of pertussis around Mass....a major outbreak
    out near 'Gateway', the large Regional High School near
    Pittsfield.

    Our doctor is now taking this very seriously...
    bob

    To .9.  My heart ached when I read your note.  I often think, as I'm
    sure you were thinking then, that I would suffer any pain at all if I
    could just protect my child from having that pain.  I can only hope
    that your child was too young (or too valium-ed) to remember what
    happened, even subconsciously.  
    

    just a couple nits here, 
    
    re .11, the parents of the teen with the "tumor" in his lung, ought to
    consider a disease called Sarcoidosis.  My husband was diagnosed with
    it while I was pregnant 7 years ago, today the "growth" is gone and he
    never had any ill effects.  However I know two grown men who have the
    disease, and frequently suffer many of the symptoms described.  Because
    it is a rare disease, medical literature describes it as common to
    older, african women, it takes a pulmonary specialist to do a true
    diagnosis.  Also consider the boy could be in beginning stages of
    Asthma.
    
    As for me, I had seen the Pertussis horror stories on 20/20, 60 minutes
    and the other shows, and while doing my prenatal visit with my pedi I
    asked her opinion of not giving him the "P" part of the DPT shot.  She
    is very straightforward with her answer. She told me that if I were not
    willing to *fully* immunize my child, then she would not be his doctor. 
    She is willing to change her stand if he were to have a reaction to any
    of the baby immunizations.  He is fully immunized.  I just held my
    breath for the first 48 hours after each shot series, praying he would
    have no reaction.  Sometimes the doctor really is right.
    
    Lyn

    Lyn,
    
    My family Dr is also the mother of two children.  My approach on
    questioning whether I should have a child immunized for X, is to ask
    her if she has immunized her kids against X.  her explaination was that
    children who have a bad reaction to the vaccinne would likely have an
    even worse problem if they caught pertussis.  we did go over all
    potential side effects and what to look for if I had concerns.  In most
    cases the dangers of the vaccine are far less than the potential of
    complications from the diseases they are meant to prevent.  When the
    risk/benifit ratio drops, such as with smallpox, then they no longer
    recommend the vaccinne.  
    
    Needless to say, my kids are fully immunized.
    
    Meg

    As far as I can tell the practice of medicine is largely a risk vs.
    benefit accessment. Many medical procedures carry risks, as NOT
    treating medical conditions carry risks.  My point is that you don't
    'get somethin for nothin', i.e. you want to avoid X disease? Fine, but
    there is a risk in the attempt to avoid it caused by the shots, or the
    procedure. If you keep the above in mind it helps keep things in
    perspective.  After all, life is a 'terminal illness'.  Smile

    Jeff

>    re .11, the parents of the teen with the "tumor" in his lung

    Just clarification...its not in his lung but in his windpipe,
    just behind his breatbone.  It started to shrink but apparently
    on his last visit to the Dr it has started to grow again.
    they are pretty worried.  I expect he'll have major surgery
    this summer after school is out.
    bob

    
    Well, here's some current experience, first-hand, from New Hampshire. 
    According to the state health dept, there were almost 300 cases of
    pertussis last year - they expect it to be higher this year, based on
    the current number of reported cases.  My family and I can account for
    3 (maybe 4 - I'm questionable) of those cases.
    
    It all started around Christmas, with a cold with a cough.  And a
    cough.  And a cough.  And a cough that got worse.  And worse.  The 2
    older boys were the only ones who seemed to be sick, but they sure
    weren't getting over the cough.  They went to the Dr's several times,
    and we were told they just had a cough.  Chris' cough got worst first,
    and is a very spasmodic cough.  It's infrequent - maybe he coughs 6-8
    times all day (24 hrs), but when he does cough, he can't breathe. 
    Jason got worse next, and his cough was uncontrollable, and resulted in 
    him vomiting, every time he coughed.  SO much fun!  But according to
    the Dr., still just a cough.  Sigh.  Jonathan (4.5 months old) got it
    next.  He started with a cold, then a croupy cough that wouldn't quit,
    and whenever he coughed he stopped breathing.  His coughing would last
    ~20-30 seconds for each coughing fit, and he have 2-3 fits in a row. 
    Cough cough cough cough, breathe for a sec, cough cough cough etc.  He
    went to the Drs SIX times before they finally listened enough (and only
    because his dad *INSISTED*!) to actually DO something for him.  They
    diagnosed several other things, but no one once mentioned the whooping
    cough.  Chris went to the Dr's last Thursday again for his cough, and
    they said this time that he had a sinus infection.  We SPECIFICALLY
    asked the Dr about whooping cough, because both Chris and Jason are
    allergic to the vaccine, and the Dr was pretty sure that wasn't what he
    had.  But neither did he bother to check further.  According the to
    State Health Dept, there seems to bea GREAT reluctance for Drs to
    diagnose whooping cough - no one knows why.  Finally Friday Jonathan
    (the baby) was taken to the Drs and after an attitude of "we're not
    leaving till you FIX this child!", they ran the battery of (miserable!)
    tests for whooping cough, and put him on Pediazole (Erythramycin and a 
    sulfa antibiotic for an on-going ear infection).
    
    The culture takes 12 days to be sure it's negative.  By Monday he had
    cultured positive.  After a lot of going around in circles about Chris
    and Jason, it was determined that Chris probably started the whole
    thing back in December.  Jason got it shortly thereafter, most likely
    from Chris.  About a month later, Jonathan finally got it, and they
    suspect that I have a mild case as well.
    
    In the medical books that I've read, none of us really seem to follow
    the general symptoms.  According to the health dept, the consider it a
    "confirmed case" if there's any pertussis 'around', and if you have a
    cough that lasts more than 2 weeks  AND  one of; vomiting from the
    cough, a WHOOP sound trying to inhale between coughs, a spasmodic cough 
    and I didn't catch the 4th thing.  
    
    I've been told that it's a virus (but have read that it's not).  It was
    described to me - the bacteria produce toxins that are *INCREDIBLY*
    irritating to the lungs, which is what causes the cough.  The duration
    of the cough is 4-8 weeks, and many times much longer than that.  They
    said that any type of cold can bring the cough back as bad as it was
    before - not because you have pertussis again, but because the lungs
    haven't completely healed from the damage from the pertussis.  They
    told me to easily expect the baby to be coughing for 4-6 months.  I'll
    never sleep again!!  
    
    The frequency of the cough is incidental - it's the TYPE of cough that
    they focus on.  It is *HIGHLY* contagious, as it's air-born, and you
    can be a carrier, without ever contracting the illness or any symptoms. 
    Everyone in the house, or that "maintains" contact with the kids, is
    now on erythramycin.  Any one with ANY symptoms is supposed to remain
    isolated till they've been on ery. for 5 days.  (NH state law)
    
    The danger to infants is usually asphyxiation.  The phlegm is very very
    thick, and can block the windpipe.  In toddlerish kids, the phlegm is
    usually swallowed, which then causes them to throw up.  (Jason is 6 and
    he's throwing up).  Trying to expel it can be difficult because it is
    so thick.  None of the kids had a fever that I noticed, though the
    state did ask if any of the kids had convulsions, so that's obviously a
    concern.
    
    The tests that they ran are a blood test, a chest xray, general poking
    and prodding, and a nasal test, which is the miserable one.  A negative
    culture doesn't mean that the kid isn't infected, as it's a difficult
    test to make sure that they had a good specimen, and any other types of
    antibiotics can cause a false negative result.
    
    The disease itself is untreatable.  They can treat the symptoms, but
    cough syrup is usually completely ineffective (I can attest to that!),
    and a decongestant is about your only hope.  The erythramycin is given
    to stop you from being contagious.  It doesn't do anything to help you
    get better - it just stops you from passing it around even more. 
    Incubation of the disease is 2-12 days (fun, huh?), and the "bad cough"
    usually hits within a few days of the first symptoms.  
    
    With the older boys, they gave them some prescription cough syrup with
    codeine, which helps some.  With Jonathan, they're reluctant to give
    him anything because they're afraid that if he gets something that
    relaxes him too much, that he might get blocked up at night and be too
    sleepy to be able to clear himself.  
    
    Since no one ever diagnosed it, we've basically been spreading it
    around since Christmas.  SORRY!!  Who KNEW?!?  One of the biggest thing
    that no one ever tells you about, is that Mom/Dad don't get any sleep! 
    Jason throws up in his sleep, and never wakes, so he needs to be
    checked on and usually cleaned up once/night.  Everytime that Jonathan
    coughs, it's SO dramatic that it scares him half to death, so he wakes
    up screaming.  I'm up about every 30-60 mins, all night long.  This is
    expected to last for months.
    
    I hope this information helps ..... I wish I'd known more about this
    before, and maybe we could have prevented the baby from getting it. 
    He certainly has it the worst, by far.  Oh yeah - and they said that
    you're not REALLY protected against it until you've had 3 sets of
    shots, or until you've had pertussis.  It's like chicken pox - once you
    get it, you're not supposed to get it again.  The good part is that
    Jonathan only needs the DT parts of his DTP now (-:  AND ... they said
    that they vaccine that "parents" may have gotten when they were kids,
    doesn't seem to be as effective as they thought it was.  Thus Mom/Dad,
    just because you might have gotten the vaccine when you were a kid,
    they're not convinced you're really immunized now.
    
    So, if you're thinking about not allowing your child to have the "P"
    part of the DTP, I wish that you could see just one of Jonathan's
    coughing fits, or spend one evening with him, and realize that there's
    MONTHS of this.  There's nothing more frightening than standing there
    watching your child coughing, seeing that they can't breathe, and
    knowing that there's nothing that you can do to help.  Chris is even to
    the point now where when he starts coughing hard, he punches himself in
    the chest to force the reflex to gasp in, so that he can breathe again.
    It's not a cough he'll ever forget.
    
    And for anyone who's gone through it, or who is .... I know JUST what
    you're going through!!  I can't wait for the fall when I can sleep
    again! (-:
    
    Patty

    Patty my heart goes out to you and your family.
    
    Thank you for taking the time to post your insights.
    I've been trying to convince a friend to give the Pertussis
    shot to her one year old. Do you mind if I show her your
    note? I'm sure it will convince her.
    
    Jodi-

    Usually the antibiotic is given to reduce the possibility of a
    secondary infection (as opposed to reduce spreading whooping cough).
    There are many "opportunistic" bacterial infections going around
    (typically pnuemunia type infections) that can gain a very quick
    foothold when the lungs etc. are infected with whooping cough, and
    can be as lethal as whooping cough!
    
    COnvulsions due to spiking fever are common with whooping cough, and
    are usually responsible for all the real nasty results of the disease,
    like brain damage etc.  So, it is important to monitor a child's fever
    when they have whooping cough, and be prepared to try to bring it
    down FAST!
    
    Acetaminophen suppositories are very valuable with whooping cough or
    other ailments that deposit large amounts of phlegm in the stomach
    and hence causes large amounts of vomiting.  KY Jelly makes
    inserting suppositories a lot easier, and instead of using rubber
    gloves like the Drs and nurses, we use plastic wrap!
    
    Stuart
    
    Stuart
    

    I asked our pediatrician about Pertussis today.  She said that those at
    risk are infants not yet immunized, non-immunized children, and
    children in middle childhood (didn't specify age) for whom the early
    immunizations had worn off.
    
    Bottom line for us - not to be concerned about Pertussis in my 3-
    year-old.
    
    Laura

    re .18 - by all means, feel free to show her the note .... and if she's
    still not convinced, we can arrange a "night out" for Jonathan (-:
    
    One other thing that I read as a danger to infants, is a hernia from
    coughing.  He gets so red when he coughs, sometimes you swear he's just
    going to Explode!!  
    
    Fortunately, we seem to be getting gradually a little better.  He did
    great for a couple of nights, but then last night got all stuffy again,
    so it was back to square one.  Sigh.  
    
    re: Stuart - interesting that you mention that because Jonathan's half
    brother was recently treated for pnuemonia, but now they're not sure if
    it was that or pertussis - he's only had 2 doses of the vaccine.  Not
    real critical, as the treatment is still the erythramycin.  
    
    So, back to the bottles of medicine - at least we're almost done with
    that part of it! (-:
    
    -Patty

    >re .18 - by all means, feel free to show her the note .... and if she's
    >    still not convinced, we can arrange a "night out" for Jonathan (-:
    
    Thanks, I'll see that she gets it ASAP (your note, not Whooping Cough)
    :^)
    
    Hope you've managed some sleep this week. :*|
    
    Jodi-

    
    
    Well, this could just be a minor remission ... or we could be getting
    better!!  The past couple nights Jonathan has been doing much better,
    and for the most part sleeping through.  He woke up once last night,
    just to get his pacifier back.  The night before he woke up for a while
    and had a hard time getting back to sleep, but eventually did without a
    feeding or anything.  It's nice to stay in bed most of the night!
    
    The other two boys have been doing lots better, and now for the most
    part, the coughing seems to be environmentally triggered.  Sudden
    hot/cold air, smoke, perfume etc.  
    
    It seems like this is going "faster than expected", but I keep
    forgetting that Chris and Jason have been coughing since Dec/Jan
    anyway - I guess they've pretty much done their time.
    
    On a bit of a sad note, it seems that Jonathan doesn't need to eat at
    night now .... somewhere in the midst of his illness, his belly started
    letting him sleep all night.  I just like to know when they started
    "sleeping through the night" .... an illness keeping him up doesn't
    count as "not sleeping" on that scale.  Oh well - can't catch ALL those
    baby milestones I guess!