Conference moira::parenting

    My husband's sister is going through a child custody battle now.  She
    was stationed in Georgia, and had one son with her (from a previous 
    marriage).  The husband moved to Florida (because that's where training
    for a new job was), and took their toddler with him.  The plan was for
    him to set up house (with the wife paying some of the bills there, in
    addition to hers in Georgia), and when she got out of the Army (in
    5 months), she and the other child would move to Florida.
    
    Three months into the deal, the husband filed for divorce.  She's
    having a heck of a time because the husband has proved he can take care
    of the child.  Now the husband wants to keep the toddler (and would like 
    it if the wife *never* got to see the kid), but wants the wife to pay
    child support.
    
    So, no, custody doesn't automatically go to the wife.  At least not in
    Florida.
            

     Jean,

	  No, it not forgone, but it is likely -- 95% of the time, custody
     goes to the mother.  But, if the father hangs in and fights, 70% of
     the time he gets at least joint physical custody.  (These are national
     averages, individual states vary -- in Massachusetts, for example, yes
     it is a foregone conclusion.) 

	  The conferences QUOKKA::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS and QUARK::MENNOTES
     are better places to ask.

	  In the absence of a court order, the father does not need to
     leave the family home, no matter how much the mother yells, screams,
     insists, or threatens -- it is _his_ home, too.  If he should
     voluntarily leave, it will be regarded as tacit admission he does not
     belong there, and the people remaining do belong there.  He loses.

	  If there are threats involved, restraining orders are more
     appropriate than abandoning the home.  Consider: a stranger comes in
     to one's home and threatens to do one harm unless one abandons one's
     home to him.  Does one abandon the home, or have the stranger ejected?
     Why should one put up with the same abuse from a spouse?

	  Similarly, in the absence of a court order, the father does not
     need to permit the mother to cut him out of the children's lives.  He
     is just as much a parent as she.

	  But, ultimately, the children's benefit is the most important
     factor.  The day-to-day parental relationship the father has with the
     children is, I think, best summed up by the simple question: when he
     was caring for the children, was it to give his wife a break?  Was he
     being a babysitter?  Or was he being a parent?  If the former, then he
     let his children go a long time ago -- and the children would be best
     served by him gracefully acknowledging that....

				     Brian
			      (a custodial father)

    From what I can remember.  When I was 5 or 6 my parents were divorcing
    and we (one of my sisters and one of my brothers and myself) had to
    meet separately with the lawyers to find out who we wanted to live with
    and all I can remember is saying that I wanted to live with my dad
    because I was afraid of my mother (she was an alcoholic) because she
    use to scare me.  A few weeks later we all had to go to court (but us
    kids weren't aloud in the court room), and we went home with dad.
    

    
    
    two Fathers in my team have custody, they both had to fight long and
    hard though.
    
    Simon

    My brother has custody of he two kids.  My sister-in-law was very
    neglectful and mistreated the kids in terrible ways.  She has three
    other children from two previous marriges (my brother was her third)
    and she lost custody of them also.
    
    I know if the child(ren) are old enough to make a decission on their
    own the Judge will listen to what they child has to say.  Like in one
    of the last replys mentioned her and her other siblings met with the
    Judge.  My brothers kids did also.
    
    If the Judge finds the mother unfit to care for the kids then they
    usually award custody to the father unless both parents are unfit and
    then the kids go into a foster home unless a relative asks for either
    temporary custody or full custody and to become the kids legal
    gaurdiens.  This happend to one of my ex sister-in-laws kids.
    
    Hope everything works out for the best.
    
    liz

    Everything I've read so far tends to say the Mother is ALWAYS preferred
    UNLESS the mother is disfunctional.  Fathers, are entitled to the same 
    rights as Mothers, even though they didn't bear the children. The
    courts need to revise their guidelines into the 20th Century. You'd be 
    suprised how many fathers would gladly be the Primary Custodial Parent,
    instead of the "visiting parent".
    
    It also apprears that children under the age of 11, tend to default to 
    the Mother; due to a falicy that maternal nuturing that is characteristic
    of women versus men.

    My brother-in-law wanted his kids but let his wife have them because
    thought it was best for the kids at the time, so he left her the house,
    kids, dog, etc.  A year later she was in mega debt and wanted cash on
    top of the support he was giving her, so she offered him the kids if 
    he'd give her 5K (a real winner of a Mom). 
    Anyway, now that he's had the kids in a stable environment (2 yrs)
    she wants them back.  From what my brother tells me that even though he 
    has the kids & the kids are thriving in the environment they're in that 
    she could always wip in back into court and demand the kids.  The thought
    that until these kids now @10 may possibly be battled over until
    they're 18 makes me sick.  He tells me that nothings will ever final.  
    Also, whenever anything changes in the environment he has the kids in (i.e., 
    he just moved 1hr closer to work so he didn't have to communte & the 
    kids would be in a better school) thats enough to be brought back to court.
    
    The whole situation is so crazy.  He's more a daddy to the kids than the
    mom ever was mom.  Being a mom I always believed the kids go to the mom,
    but after being involved in this situation I believe the kids should be
    where they'll be the happiest.
    
    My brother-in-law has always kept the bitterness out of it when letting
    the kids know what's happening.  They have no idea there mom trade
    them for cash.  I don't know if I could have been as kind....but I
    guess he doesn't want to have the kids hurt anymore than they already
    are.
    
    
    That's all.
    
    Good luck!
    

	16 years ago, in Massachusetts, my father won sole custody
	of his five children.  There was visitation during the course
	of the 1 year custody trial, but I don't think any was stipulated
	in the final custody.  We did visit my mother pretty much when
	we wanted to after the trial was over.

	We were all asked our preference by the judge, though I think
	he only really counted the opinions of the three oldest (17, 15, 14)
	in his decision.

	Karen

It always amazes me that in a state so famous for its
liberal roots, Massachusetts can be so backward in this
respect.

I am the custodial parent of three children, in a joint
custody agreement with my ex-wife.  She is not considered
a dysfuncional parent.  Although we originally agreed to
this arrangement, in a written contract, she has attempted
in the past to change her mind and gain physical custody.
The bottom line is that a contract is a contract, and she
can't change it without proving that it is in the best 
interests of the children.

Personally, I think asking the children whom they would
prefer is barbaric.  How dare the courts put a child in
the position of choosing one parent over another!

Fathers are just as good at parenting as mothers.  It
is a cultural bias in our society, that somehow the kids
belong with their mother, and it falls nothing short
of outright gender bias - sexism.

In the end, I have grown to empathize with the women's 
movement, and their fight against sexism, because the
world looks a lot different when you're on the recieving
end...

tim

    
    	Barbaric may depend on the circumstances.  At age 14, I knew that
    	the best thing for myself, my sisters, AND my mother was for my
    	father to have custody.
    
    	Karen
    

>    	Barbaric may depend on the circumstances.  At age 14, I knew that
>    	the best thing for myself, my sisters, AND my mother was for my
>    	father to have custody.
 
    You were definately lucky there, Karen.

    I have two stepdaughters, one of whom lives with us, and the other with
    her mother.  Their mother treats the daughter who chose to live with
    us in a manner not befitting a loving parent (we'll leave it at that).
    Due to the current circumstances in the mother's household, my other
    stepdaughter would be *definately* better off also living with us,
    better for her, as well as for her mother.  But she's afraid of what
    her mother's reaction would be if she were to say she wanted to move,
    because she (mom) is operating on an emotional, not practical, level.

    I guess my bottom line is that if this situation follows its seeming 
    course of being back in court, then my stepdaughter *can't* be in a
    win-win situation if she's asked to choose.

	    - Lorri

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      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

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After years of physical and verbal abuse, I have gotten a restraining
order against my husband and had the police remove him from our home.  He
claims that he still loves me and wanted group counseling when I extended
the order but I firmly told the judge that he needs counseling on his own
before I will consider group therapy.  The judge agreed and gave me custody
of our child.  I ammended the "no contact with the child" and per my
discretion he is allowed visitation rights.  However, he wants the child
every other night and every other weekend.  

The last thing that I want to do is have our child used a pawn throughout
our problems.  He is a wonderful father and the issues have really nothing
to do with the relationship between him and his child.  They are between a 
husband and wife.  So, I have agreed to his terms.  It was the hardest 
thing I ever had to do in my life.  Our child is very young, and doesn't
understand anything that is going on.  My first priority is to have him
grow up with love, stability and happiness around him.

Unfortunately, my lawyer has advised me that this is incorrect and they
are trying to make me look like I don't want my child, that I am trying
to get rid of him so I can go out and have a good time.  I don't believe
that this is the case with my husband.  I think he honestly misses his
child and just wants to spend as much time as he can with him. I do 
however understand that it they certainly could use this against me in a 
court if they choose.  I am torn as to what to do because I just want
to do what is best for our child.  

Does anyone have any opinions they can offer me?  

    Personally, I believe in your situation I would revert back to the "no
    contact with the child" order.  To me, dangerous is dangerous--if my
    spouse could physically abuse me (someone he allegedly loves), he could
    do it to my child, and very easily if I were not around to protect the
    child.
    
    Secondly, even if the spouse's intentions are noble, his lawyer's may
    not be, and the bottom line could be that you lose custody.
    
    Best of luck in whatever you decide.
    Leslie

    First, I want to commend you on putting the wants and needs of your
    child FIRST.
    
    How old is the child?
    
    Do you trust your husband with the child?
    
    If your goal for custody is for shared custody and logistically it
    works for you to go every other night then that's great.  But what
    happens when one of you want to move -- who then gets physical custody
    while the other becomes the non-custodial parent....you could be
    setting yourself up for becoming the non-custodial parent.
    
    You may want to go into to non custodial parenting file and read some
    of the notes in there.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Roberta

    I just entered my note and read Leslie's reply and I don't agree with
    it.....if you are at all untrusting of your husband with your child,
    please make the move of going with supervised visits -- the courts can
    set them up for you.  Please do not break off contact between a father
    and child, especially if to this point they have had a great
    relationship.
    
    Roberta

    >Secondly, even if the spouse's intentions are noble, his lawyer's may
    >not be, and the bottom line could be that you lose custody.
    
    
    Alas, I second this opinion ... The fact that a restraining order was
    issued, and you have allowed more leniency than the order allows gives
    an agressive lawyer the opportunity to open the door a LOT wider than
    you might ever dream.  Leslie hinted at the bit about losing custody
    ... this could be acompanied by dragging your name through all kinds
    of mud to get there.
    
    If you want leniency in the order for your son to see his father, then
    that should be organized through the court, and under the
    circumstances, probably with court supervision, even though you trust
    father with son.  I know  it might seem like using your son as a
    pawn, but you have an important message to get across ... violence is
    not the answer ... and you must be seen to protect your son from the
    potential for violence ... not just against him ... but say with a
    "friend" of your husband while your son is visiting ...
    
    As the saying goes, I'm not a lawyer ... I don't even play one on TV
    ... but I see too much possibility for a mess cropping up for you.
    Listen to your own lawyer ... presumably you trust him/her ?  You
    are paying for that trust and advice ... take it!
    
    Stuart
    
    
    

    My ex was physically and verbally abusive.  I say that anyone like that
    cannot be a 'wonderful' father, because if they're not mature enough
    to treat their wife properly, than they aren't mature enough....period..
    and they're not going to do right by the child, either.
    
    I had 5 children.  They are all grown now, and fortunately, I don't 
    know how...are a nice bunch, if I do say so myself.  They are close to
    each other, helpful, friendly people, and I don't mind being around 
    them at all.  But, their father is another story....
    
    My ex did exactly the opposite of what he said he would do; he didn't
    care about anyone but himself, and his fears, feelings, etc., during
    the entire process.  He put those kids through hell; custody suits,
    probationary investigations, 'I'll kill myself' threats, 'I love my kids'..
    (as a reason for what he was doing), 'who do you want to live with'....
    it was awful!
    
    So, watch out....and be careful.  Maybe he won't abuse the child so
    that it's noticeable to others, but there are other forms of abuse,
    too, as you must know.  We (my ex and I) do have a tolerable situation 
    now...but it was a long time coming....and we still cannot actually talk 
    about what happened to us as a couple.  He takes no responsibility for 
    any of the destruction of our marriage.
    
    Anyway, enough....but, if I had to do it again, I would be a *lot*
    tougher, as tough as I could possibly be....and I wouldn't try to be
    so 'understanding' of someone you had to take out a restraining order
    on.....I had to do that, too.  
    
    The best to you....
    
    Lorraine

    
        I have to agree. He may not be noticiably abusive to the child,
    but there are ways of abusing children that may not show up until
    years later. 
    
        He may only be trying to have the child more often just to get 
    you. Just something to make you look bad. Use the child is what
    a lot of so called adults do to get back at the spouse. I'd say
    ,be very careful.
    
       Good luck,
        Rosie

    Dear Anon,
    
    I'm on "the other side" in this.  At the risk of reading "too much"
    into your note, I'm not at all convinced that you really want a
    divorce.  Which puzzles me why the lawyers are involved at all at this
    point.  
    
    You say you trust your husband with your child.  I think that is very
    possible.  I have seen many men who make terrible husbands and
    wonderful fathers (I think it's because they know how to be
    "authoritative", but don't reall know how to be a "companion").  I
    think that's very possible.  I also agree that he needs to seek
    counseling on his own.  BUT for the two of you to have a shot at
    working it out together, his counselor would need to understand what
    the problems are FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE.  Clearly he doesn't see the
    problems in the same light as you, so you'll never reach an agreeable
    solution.
    
    What if you agreed to couples counseling with 1 counselor who *ALSO*
    saw him individually.  Then you could voice your disatisfactions, which
    would help the "couple" heal, while at the same time, he could work
    through his own issues to help the "man" heal (and you may need some of
    your own counseling to be able to forgive him for his wrongs).  
    
    You want to know "how to act", when it's not clear where you really
    "want to go".  if this is "get out, we're through, and forget it!",
    then be careful (as others have stated) about leaving yourself at ALL
    open to anything.
    
    If this is "I'm not going to TAKE anymore, and if you don't straighten
    out, this will be IT!", then (IMO) it seems a LITTLE harsh to keep his
    child from him.  If you're working to BE together, then you need to
    WORK together.  The lawyers will never be conducive to that.
    
    AND if you're working to be together, and you really feel you can trust
    him, maybe at some point in the future, one/some of those visits with
    his child, can include you (out for an ice cream or whatever), to help
    you decide if you really want to be with him, and if you can really
    forgive him.
    
    Don't move TOO fast ... once a family is "undone" it's damn hard to put
    if back again.  Trust me - I know.
    
    -patty

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I really had to think before I decided to respond to this note.

I am able to give input from the other perspective. I was an abusive husband.

In my case alcohol abuse was also involved.

I'd like to congratulate you on getting the restraining order and taking care of 
yourself and your child. It takes a lot of courage. You are probably wondering
why you didn't do it sooner. Probably because you thought things would get 
better.

There is something commonly referred to as the cycle of violence. It's a cycle so 
it's hard to know where to start. Let's start after a violent incident. Your
husband is full of remorse he brings flowers. You walk on egg shells around him.
after a while he seems fine you trust him again. You trust him enough to 
mention something minor about taking trash out. He white knuckles it and takes it 
like a man. You feel safer. Suddenly he accuses you of talking about him to 
your mother he's in a rage and slaps you. The next day he is full of remorse. 
The cycle goes on better gifts more violent abuse mingled with loving behaviour.
It only gets worse. He keeps promising to do better.

I hit bottom when I realized that I could have have killed my wife during what 
turned out to be my last real drunk. The police had been called and an 
emergency restraining order was granted.

I'd already tried doing it on my own. We'd tried joint counseling. I was in 
individual counseling.

I eventually found a group called EMERGE based in Cambridge Mass. I learned about 
abusive behaviour. I learned coping skills and ways to behave. They kept track 
of my progress by talking to my wife.

Eventually our marriage broke up too much trust was lost.

Since then I have been in relationships and not resorted to abusive behaviour.
I learned what I needed at EMERGE. I trust them. I am sure they would help your 
husband. It may help you to talk to them. There are shelters that have groups 
that will help you. They will tell you that 1% of the men that seek help 
succeed. EMERGE claims that 50% of there "graduates" succeed.

I wouldn't recommend joint counseling until your husband has been through some 
counseling of his own. preferably with a group like EMERGE.

During all of this I was only restrained from seeing my daughter for one week. 
One of the hardest weeks of my life.

You obviously love your husband and know whether to trust him with your child 
or not. During my divorce I did several things that my attorney was against 
mostly I went with my instincts. I trusted my wife and wanted the best for my 
daughter.

I don't think I've answered your question directly but I hope this has helped.

Take care of yourself,
P