Conference moira::parenting

    Can't someone call the DSS and anonymously report that this abuse is
    taking place?   This is awful, because I don't have any solutions.
    There was a time when I lived in an apartment in Houston Tx., and in
    the apartment next to mine, there was a baby (couldn't have been more
    than 6 months old) and I would constantly hear the mother yelling,
    screaming at this baby to shutup.  Then came the time, when I actually
    heard the sounds of this woman beating the child, and I called the
    Welfare services in Houston and told them that I wasn't sure, but I
    believe from the sounds that a baby was being abused.  They came that
    afternoon.....   They took the baby away from the parents that
    afternoon.   Later I was threatened by the parents, but I didn't care,
    I felt like I had done what needed to be done for the baby's sake.  The
    only thing I'm getting at here, is that someone just needs to report
    it.  Anonymously....  Dont give your name.  Just say that you've
    seen/heard  evidence of the abuse and you would like for someone to
    check it out.    Perhaps your stepbrother could do this, since he lives
    down there.
    
    What a horrible situation.  Its too bad that you can't go down there
    and sue your brother for custody of the children on the grounds that
    he/his wife are unfit parents, but that may be a little more than what
    you can do.   I wish I could help...
    
    

    Thanks for the suggestion!

    From what I understand, they will not take anonymous tips... I guess
    they have had too many problems of people getting "even" with someone
    else.

    The thing that really bothers me (other than the fact that my mother
    says she didn't know about my abuse, and yet here is abuse staring her
    in the face and she still won't do anything) is that last year when it
    was reported by a psychologist, the investigators walked in, took one
    look at the immaculate house (Sharon is an obsessive cleaner... my
    brother has to strip down in the garage before he can walk in the house
    at night), and the fact that there are no marks on the kids... and with
    my brothers reputation with the FHP... they just walk back out and
    don't do anything!

    My brother makes me sick.... to propagate this type of behavior after
    all it did to us when we were kids!  I know that abusers supposedly
    grow up to be abusers... but I don't abuse my kids (20 yrs and almost
    18 yrs).. so why couldn't he stop the circle??  Oh well.. enough of my
    venting.... on to the kids.

    I have a little tiny house, these kids do not know me... and Henry is
    so out of control (he has been in school for 2 week, already has 7
    demerits on the board, had conferences with the principal, the
    teachers, etc....) I just don't think I can handle it.  And I don't
    think my kids and husband should have to be subjected to this!  If I
    were single, with no children... I possibly would have kidnaped them
    by now!

    Thats too bad they won't take anonymous tips.   Its too bad that your
    mother can't turn him in.   She was there, she saw it and she could do
    it without the fear of him doing something immediately to her.  What
    about contacting a lawyer/legal services in Florida and asking them for
    some advice.   It is really something that people can get away with
    this type of behavior just because they are part of the highway patrol.
    
    Wish I had some other ideas..
    
    This may be a case of where you can just hope for the best because you
    can't really do anything about it.
    
    Good luck
    
    Sarah 

                            
    
    	Who reported the abuse the first time?  If they were investigated,
    	someone must have been suspicious of something.  Could you get this
    	person/these people involved again?
    
    	Could you visit, see the abuse first hand, and report it?
    
    	Can the kids report anything?
    
    	What a horrible situation.  I hope it all works out for you and
    	for them!
    
    	Justine

    
    
    	I just reread the note that says the abuse was reported by a
    psycologist.  Can you call him/her and ask for advice?
    
    	Justine

    The first person to report is was a PSYCHOLOGIST!!!  And the
    investigators blew it off after the first visit!

    I don't know his name, and I'm sure if I were to ask my brother (who I
    haven't spoken to in over 10 years) he would be very suspicious and
    probably wouldn't give me the time of day!

    The last time I saw him, after about 6 years of not seeing him... the
    first words out of his mouth were, "Gee you got fat".  It didn't bother
    me, as that is how he has always been..... he's just a jerk!

    I will keep you all posted as I figure out what to do!

    Thoughts and hope,

    M-L

    Just an idea -- What if you wrote to the children and let them know
    that they were on your mind and that they could call you collect or
    write to you anytime they need someone to talk to.  Maybe it would help
    them to know that they have a loving aunt who cares about them, even 
    if at this time you are unable to take them in yourself.  Also, over
    time, you may decide to use their letters to you as evidence to report
    their parents for abuse.  Of course, this is something you'll want to 
    think carefully about, as it could backfire on the children.  But 
    opening up some communication between them and yourself for now might
    at least be a start in the right direction.  
    
    Jane
    

Just a thought after reading .7 - A letter out of the blue might be a little
odd.  You could start with a few simple holiday cards with your return address
on it somewhere inside.  Maybe even include a self addressed stamped postcard
they could jot a few things on and drop it in a mail box.  Assuming there will
be prying eyes on the letters, make them look innocent, but easy for the kids to
reply to you if they want to.

Dave

	Sorry, no advice to offer, but this note has me thinking of the
	two boys who killed their abusive father.  Many, many people
	knew of the abuse going on in that house, and no one did anything.

	The man's own father was afraid of him.

	Karen

If you know where they go to school, perhaps a call to the school principal 
or guidance counselor might help.  In a situation that is this abusive, I'd 
be very, very, suprised if they showed know signs of this at all at school or 
in social situations.  And they (the guidance counselor or principal) may be 
able to get the kids to talk to them.

My thoughts are with you and your neices and nephew, and even with your 
brother, who is parenting in the only way he knows how, and your mother, who 
is seeing the fruits of her denial.

Clay

    Perhaps you could contact a battered women's shelter and find out if
    there are any nationwide support groups for abused children.  Perhaps
    they could help you find a sympathetic supporter where the children
    live?
    
    Just a thought

    Also try Parents Anonymous.  I am pretty  sure they have a national toll-
    free number.  They work very closely with the child welfare agencies in
    many states and can at the very least offer you some support while you
    work through this agony.
    
    Some other random thoughts:
    
    I wouldn't take the kids in.  That's just jumping from the fry pan into
    the fire.  They both need a lot of psychological help, probablay the
    7-year-old would benefit from a residential program, and that is too
    much of a strain to put on your own family.  I also say this as a
    survivor of physical abuse and as someone who likes to "ride to the
    rescue."  (You should have seen me when I saw TV programs about the
    orphans in Romania.  I was ready to fly over there and take them all
    home.:-))  But remember your obligation to the family you have now.
    That has to come first.
    
    Second, there is no uniform standard of what constitutes child abuse,
    although I guess most thinking people would certainly classify what
    happened to your niece/nephew as abuse.  The reporting standards, etc.,
    vary widely from state to state.  In some states, you can beat the
    living hell out of your kids, send them out to play buck-naked, and
    feed them nothing but cold cereal, and no one will say a word.  Here in
    Mass., if a child tells a teacher that "Mommy hit me and it hurt" the
    teacher is obligated BY LAW to report it to the Dept. of Social
    Services.  Teachers, child care workers, and medical and mental health
    professionals are required to report known or suspected abuse.  And if
    they don't, and someone finds out that they didn't, their license to
    practice will be suspended or revoked.  
    
    Although the standards for reporting abuse are far from uniform, I
    think most school districts are required to report known or suspected
    abuse.  Unfortunately, it's hard to tell *how* a kid received an
    injury, and everyone is so sue-happy these days, I believe a lot of
    school districts look the other way.  But in your nephew's case it
    should be obvious that something is going on at home!
    
    Finally, I would double-check with the Florida state authorities about
    the anonymous reporting issue.  That takes all the teeth out of the
    law.  The reason you can report anonymously (I think teachers, medical
    professionals, etc., have to give *their* names) is for purposes of
    protection and privacy.  I mean, some of the abusing adults are really
    troubled, and if they are beating a child that is physically weaker
    than they are, what on earth will they do to another adult??  Shoot
    them?  Stalk them?  Go after *their* kids??  You ought to be able to
    express your concern about a child without wondering if your own
    life/property and that of your children will be endangered.
    
    This is a truly awful situation, and all I can offer is a lot of
    prayers.
    
    Kate  
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I have never been abused, not verbally, emotionally, physically,
    sexually, nothing.  I never thought by any means, that my child-
    hood was an exception.  I assumed that everyone's Holiday's were
    happy, that everyone pretty much got at least what they needed.
    I knew there were poorer people than I, and people that had 
    absolutely nothing.
    
    Then I came to work for Digital when I was 18.  That year, the Holidays
    came and went.  I tried to get my group in the Spirit, but there were
    divorces, money issues, and some people who just didn't want to 
    do anything..I put up the tree and my boss said.."Some people just
    don't like the Holiday's - You're not a kid anymore there some
    things you need to realize.." and he went on and explained how
    people get depressed because they have to be alone, because they
    can't buy their kids what they want etc...
    
    So - I left that alone and figured okay...I can deal with that....
    
    Then the tragedy struck, people started getting sick, passing away,
    abuse in other areas started to surface.  I was in shock.  I didn't
    think that stuff happened to people I knew or was associated with.
    
    I guess what I'm getting at is that I knew I had it good growing
    up...I never wanted for anything...and I never knew tragedy (my
    granparents are still alive to this day)....but everytime I read
    files like this I realize I had it better than I thought.
    
    and my heart goes out to all of you in here and everywhere who 
    weren't allowed to grow up happy...

    
    You may want to call the National Child Abuse Hotline #1-800-422-4453.
    They have Counselors who can advise you on the best way to report
    abuse for your state.  One key point will be whether there are any
    physical signs of abuse.  As sad as it might sound, your accusation
    will hold a lot more weight if there are bruises, marring, etc.
    If the family has connections locally, you may want to report this
    at the state level.  Good luck and keep us posted....
     

    
    
    
    Another idea, although not pretty.  Your mother doesn't want to report
    the abuse.  Maybe if you pointed out how more and more abused kids seem
    to be taking matters into their own hands (killing the abusive
    parent(s)), and pointed out to your mother that she doesn't want to
    lose a son, maybe she could see this as helping her son rather than
    "upsetting" the family or getting involved or whatever.  Maybe then 
    she'd be more likely to do something?
    
    	Please keep us updated. 
    
    	Justine
    
    

	My sister-in-law and her husband were visiting from Florida
	a few weeks ago.  They are both lawyers (one a Prosecuting Attorney,
	one a Judge, formerly a "family law" lawyer).  I asked them about
	reporting suspected child abuse in Florida, and they both said that
	it *is* anonymous.  There are also laws requiring teachers to report
	suspected abuse.    

	For what it's worth...

	Karen

I lived in Florida until about two years ago...and I've had
some experience with Florida's HRS.  Specifically, I was
wrongly accused in an anonymous complaint of abusing my
daughter.  It was the most frightening thing I had ever
experienced, but that's not why I'm commenting here.

. As stated, the system IS anonymous - completely.

. There is no accountability for the accuser - one can
  pick up a phone, dial an 800 number, complain and hang
  up without ever having to identify oneself.

. The accused has no right to confront the accuser, or 
  even a right to know who it is.

. Professionals, such as teachers, counsellors and mental
  health professionals, are REQUIRED by law to report
  suspected abuse.

It is not unusual for the investigator to show up at the
home of the accuser with the police, in uniform, to 
interview accuser and child (in the case of parent/child
abuse).  Typically, the objective of such an initial
interview is to determine if the child is at risk, and
potentially remove her/him from the home immediately.

Investigators are typically young, right out of school,
underpaid and overworked.  They have far more cases than
they can handle, and are poorly equipped in materials,
experience and education to handle even a normal load.
In recent years, there have been a number of mishandled
abuse cases that ended in the seemingly wrongful death
of children, so HRS has been under intense scrutiny.
The system is abysmal, and it scared the hell out of me.

tim

re .17:

I don't think Florida is unique, or even unusual.

    I had a neighbor who had custody of his two children.  A little girl
    who was seven and a little boy who was six.  My old daycare provider
    call the FHS (family health services) and reported him.  He would go
    out on a date.  He would hire a babysitter and told her to leave at
    11:00pm even if he was not at home.  And she was only 15, so she did as
    she was told.

    Well, there was a big investigation.  They did go to the children's
    school to interview them.  But this was after he told my daycare
    provider that what comes around, goes around.  He thought the
    babysitter's mother turned them in.  Well, he turned that young girls
    life into a living he**.  

    He called the FHS on her and said that she was molesting his children.
    To make a long story short, her name was cleared and I guess everything
    turned out for the best.

    The system did tell the father that they would be watching him and the
    children were not to be left alone and if they found out that they
    were, they would be taken away.

    So you are right, the person making the call should have to give
    specific evidence.  And the accused person should have to right to know
    who did this.

    Sorry, it's just how I feel.  If my neighbor had known, maybe that
    young girl would not have been as traumatized as she was.

    Well, I still have not done anything!  I am still investigating my
    options!  ALTHOUGH!!!!!  I did talk with my mother this weekend, and
    told her I thought she was dead wrong in not reporting it, seeing as
    SHE was the one who saw it first hand, and she was the one who talked
    with the kids.  I told her she looked the other way, and has denied
    anything happened to me when I was 4, 36 years ago... and she has
    totally convinced herself she didn't know... and now when she can
    possibly "fix" a problem, she is not acting on it!  She is in denial,
    and she is allowing the abuse to continue!

    I think it sunk in!  She said she was going to talk the the FHS (or
    whatever they are called in Colorado) and see if they can call it in
    from there.....  I am going to give her a few days to see what she
    does, but I am almost to the point of knowing exactly what "I" have to
    do to protect those kids!

    Thanks for all the info!

    M-L

    The anoymous reporting part makes sense to me. Retaliation against
    accusers is rampant, and it doesn't seem to matter whether the charges
    are founded or not.
    
    BUT, the 'system' should hold the accuser accountable. i.e. if the
    accusation is unfounded and was made in bad faith then there should be
    criminal penalties brought against the accuser.
    
    Jeff

   re: .21 - Jeff

   Accountability... Yes!!!

>>                                                            ... if the
>>    accusation is unfounded and was made in bad faith ...

   Unfortunately, the "bad faith" part will be tough to prove... 
   
   - Tom

    re: last few.
    
    The basenoter has a problem. If you want to talk about people being
    wrongly accused, could you please start another note?
    
    Thanks,
    Kate