Conference moira::parenting

    
    If you have "strong" incomes (and therefore wouldn't qualify for
    financial aid), I'd suggest that the one *big* expense associated
    with raising children is their college education.   Savings for
    higher education can be an expense even when the children are 
    very young.
    
    Carol
    

    Okay,

    	The breakdown (estimate) for us *this* year is:

    	Daycare (2 kids/4 days a week)           $187.00/week

    	Clothing                                 $ 30.00/year
    	 (the little one wears handme downs)

    	Shoes                                    $ 60.00/year  (3 pair)
          (the little one does not wear shoes yet)

        Food (two adults, 2 kids)                $ 25.00 - 30.00/week

	Toys                                     $200/this past year
        (this included two "big ticket" item this year, I estimate toys will
         cost apx. $100 total (if that) for both kids in the following year)

    	Diapers (2 kids)                          $ 40.00/month

        Wipes (2 kids)                            $ 2.00/month

    	We also had "start up costs" like buying twin and bunk beds this
    years but even those we got used. The beds (this end up) came to 400$
    and we also got another stroller (at a yard sale) for $5.

    	I'm sure that there are other costs but these are the ones that
    come immediately to mind.


    				Wendy

    
    Ah yes, college, I forgot about that one,
    
    	We have a college account set up in which weekly payments are made
    (I think it's 35 dollars but not sure). Also, whenever the change is
    rolled the money goes into this account and any bonds or money gifts
    are also put here.
    
    	I'm sure that this will need to be increased as time rolls on. (as
    will all other expenses)
    
    				Wendy

Gee, did I say that in Parenting V1 ?????????????


That was 4-5 years ago .................


Have I got bad news for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:-)


It's bad, but not THAT bad ... we are still a 1 income family and
surviving, but oh, the costs dooo go up.  It becomes quite expensive
as they start wanting their own unique clothes and playthings, as the
schools select more and more expensive field trips etc...

One of the biggest expenses has got to be shoes and clothes in those
years when they grow like crazy.

Probably the thing that helps us is having friends who pass clothes on
to us for the girls.  This is how our girls have got some of their more
"jazzy" or fancy "semi-designer" clothes (I refuse to be dragged into
the designer clothes trap ... it's how to become bankrupt in a hurry!)

At certain ages, it seems kids wear their clothes out making them
impossible to pass down ... :-(  Then as they get older and they develop
their own individual tastes it starts getting more difficult.

Probably our major cost cutting is to ensure that a) we need or have a
strong desire for anything, and b) we buy it on sale.  Rarely anything
comes into our house that is purchased at full price, including food where
possible.  We use coupons for food where possible, but on the other hand
we try to avoid being a coupon slave ... couponing in Canada doesn't
nett the huge savings that people get in the US with shops that offer
double couponing and so on.

While it is great to trim your cloth to fit your budget, it is important
not to work so hard at saving that you end up spending hours doing things
to save just a little money.  An example is your making baby wipes ...
we just used a few facecloths that got washed in near boiling water and
bleached now and then, reserving wipes for travelling.

One thing we talked about before our first was the fact that if we waited
until we could afford our first, we'd have never had kids!  On the other
hand there are a lot of people who are having kids who *really* can't
afford to ending up on welfare etc.

We do make trips to McDonalds or other restaurants from time to time ...
We do not give big gifts for birthdays or Christmas ... but comfortable
gifts ... and sometimes we make a gift for us as a family ... like a
keyboard or Nintendo or computer etc ...

It's a challenge keeping in budget, but not impossible.

Stuart

    Well,we've talked about having more children in the future,and the
    first reaction was "yes,but can we afford it?" and the answer was
    maybe.See,raising kids don't cost THAT much for us,but with all the
    other payments (16 more years for the appartment,4 years for the car
    ...)-it does leave us with no money at all by the end of the month.
    And G'd,no.I am NOT crying (the no. of young couples here in Israel
    who don't even have what we have is to much for me to cry!)
    So where does the money go?
    diapers - 80ns/month
    daycare for 2 - 1200ns/month!!!!
    cloths - nothing! all is handme or presents.last time I bought
             something new for Yahli was a year ago.
    shoes - same (grandma's buying)
    toys - same.
    books - I'd say 10-20ns/months 
    food - about 800-1000ns/month for the whole family+dog
    saving accounts - 200ns/month (it's not an "official" college plan
                     but we would like to see them use this money for
                     education)
    and then come the bills.
    so where do we save? lots of handme cloths/toys,no meat at all,chicken
    only once a week,no soft drinks (multi-expensive here!!!) and junk food
    (same-ultra expensive!) almost no eating out (once a year,maybe twice)
    and we get by.
    so now our question is not whether or not we can afford it financially,
    but will I be able to handle another birth (I have MS and the doctors
    are not quite happy (to say the least...) with me giving birth to more
    kids)
    I would love to though!!!!
    r/

Looks not at all bad to me Wendy ...  I suspect that a lot of your expenses
are actually in the overheads of mortgage, utilities, running 2 cars, etc.
The worst part is that it really is virtually impossible to trim those
costs.  Perhaps refinancing the mortgage at lower interest rates ?

We only have college savings for our youger two kids, and then it is  no
huge sum.  We don't have anything for the eldest.  It was almost too late
when we thought about it anyway :-(  This is going to be a problem we'll
have to meet when the time comes, although grandparents are planning to be
the major help there ... especially since they were both educators, they
want to help.

The other thing to watch is to ensure that any life insurance you have is 
really giving you value for money ...  A lot of families can be insurance
poor in that all their life insurance is in whole life or other similar
savings type policies where the savings are low and the insurance is
expensive.  Some whole life insurance is useful especially with guaranteed
insurability options built in to extend the policy at some time later when
you may have aneed for additional insurance but couldn't normally get it.
Term insurance for the period of your mortgage is beyond a doubt the cheapest.
Mortgage insurance is often a poor buy because of the reducing face value.


Stuart

    Re: making your own baby wipes....
    
    Well, afer I read the original note, I felt I am big spender.
    In our household, we eat out at least once every week (usually
    at McDonald's).  Our kids get new toys constantly.  Before the
    the kids were born, I collect food coupons.  I don't do that
    any more, I barely have time for food shopping.  I do try only
    buy things that are on sale.  And thanks to grandparents and
    my sister, I got most of the clothes free.  This is a big
    saving.  The daycare for 2 kids costs $250/week.  This is
    already much less than I used to pay.  I had live-in nanny
    when kids were small.  In summary, it costs us at least $1100 per
    month for raising 2 kids.  And the worst is, they are only 5
    and 3 years old.  I cann't image the cost when they become 
    teenagers.
    
    Wendy 

    *Sigh*.
    I always remind myself how good we have it, then I remember all
    our expenses!
    We have one child now, and are planning only one more. If I didn't 
    have to work and we had the money NOT TO HAVE TO CHANGE OUR LIFESTYLE
    (a key phrase), I'd even be interested in having three. 
    
    I've picked up a lot of cost saving habits from my european parents
    (you know, the "after the war" stories). 
    
    - we buy in bulk
    - cook in bulk (and freeeeze it!) 
    - use coupons 
    - wait for sales
    - make our own ____ (fill in the blank) if we have the time & talent.
    - we use cloth diapers and face-cloths for wipes
    - we shop in the US for clothes ( ;-) ;-) )
    - we try to epouse they 90's recycle-reuse philosophy
    - we have ONE car and a monthly transit pass.
    - our daycare cost are $125 a week CDN (~ $95 US now) and we do not
      have to pay for any days she is not there. 
    - we got a BIG bunch of clothes for Charlotte from a co-worker
      (my boss actually!) and this has halved her clothing costs up until
      now
    
    As for education, traditionally the costs for University are 
    smaller in Canada, however, they are getting pricy up here too, as 
    the educational intitutions and goverments can't afford to be generous
    anymore. We haven't started saving for Charlotte's education yet,
    however, Alan has a steady job at Carleton University here in 
    Ottawa. It is our hope that this may be the ticket for Charlotte 
    if he stays that long. (I'm an optimist, but I will probably start
    saving up soon anyway).
    
    With house and car payments though, it does not leave us a great deal
    either. Remember Canada, the land of taxes? 
    
    Monica
    
    P.S. I don't think Stuart's present financial model would be one
    worth emulating 8-). He has a real right to complain about $$$ now!

	So far, we've managed to keep extra costs to a minimum.

	Groceries			$80.00/week
	(2 adults, one child, includes diapers, wipes, cleaning products)

	Day Care			$60.00/week 
	(~36 hours/week, don't pay for holidays, vacations, days she's
	 not there)  This will change *drastically* when #2 comes, as
	grandma won't be babysitting anymore...

	clothing			$100.00/year 
	(most clothing is gifts, I could have spent much less this year,
	but splurged in my first ever shopping trip for Emily's birthday -
	this was her entire gift from us)

	shoes				$50.00 /year

	Toys				$0.00/year
	(I *did* spend $40 or so for Christmas last year, but got another
	$25 in free toys at the same time (I hosted a Discovery Toys party, and
	got free gifts)  Most of the cost was shipping)


	I nursed Emily until she was 9 months old, supplementing with 1
	bottle of formula/day from 3-7 months, 2/day from 7-9 months, then
	switced over to whole milk at 10 months.  I managed to keep our
	grocery costs constant that one month of just formula, and we only
	increased to $80/week for groceries (from $75) on July 1st.  The main
	reason was the decrease in diapers/bag when Emily went up a size.

	We also took one car off the road in April, cutting our insurance
	costs.  We donated the car to the Kidney Association.

	Between three of my sisters and myself, there have been 6 children
	born in the last 2 years.  We are continually going through the kids
	drawers and handing the outgrown stuff down to the next in line.  We 
	label everything with the baby's initials, so that we can get it back
	for the next one.  Between this and gifts, we have spent very little
	on clothing.  Luckily, my daughter was born in May, so Christmas and
	birthday cover different seasons.  Be sure to plan your children this
	way ;-) ;-)

	We hope to have 4 children, then may adopt later.  I think everyone's
	perception of "affording" children is different.  I could probably 
	quit my job, have 4 kids, and not ever have to go on welfare.  I 
	would have to make major lifestyle changes.  I'm slowly working on
	some of them now, because I do believe working with more than two
	kids would cost more than staying home.

	Karen

	

>    P.S. I don't think Stuart's present financial model would be one
>    worth emulating 8-). He has a real right to complain about $$$ now!

Strangely, although the equity model is way off base, the operating
expenses model is still pretty much unchanged! :-)

Stuart

    For us this is not just about raising kids on less money but it is
    also a life style change.

    	For example, one of the biggest reasons that we make our own wipes
    is that it made me sick to think of throwing away one or two plastic
    blue boxes every week. (time to make the wipes is about 10 minutes for
    a month's supply) Now we throw away the wrapper to some paper towels,
    we even keep the cardboard core to use around the house (great for
    storing cables and cords in).

    	Same thing for the applesauce, each week we were throwing away a
    large glass jar, now we throw away a plastic apple bag.(and in the
    fall, there won't even be that).

    	This is not really money spent on the kids, but while some people
    rescue animals, we rescue house parts. We've been able to use two
    screen doors destined for the dump (fine condition just unwanted by the
    owners) and we have lots of furniture waiting to be fixed up. We're
    thinking of adding a bathroom and you can bet I'll be looking for
    someone's remodeling discards, as long as it's clean and works, we'll
    try to use it. (our large house is unfinished and needs lots of
    additions)

    	This all started (for me) when I was on this last maternity leave,
    two significant things happened:

    	I read a book called The Tightwad Gazette (the book is based on the
    newsletters) It's a book that takes about being frugal and using what
    you have to make due. (has a great way to make beans and rice in a
    steamer in 30 minutes) and it made me think.

    	and I saw some teenage kids drink some soda from a can and then
    throw the can on the ground and it made me think.

    	It made me wonder how I was going to teach my kids environmental
    responsibility. I figured that it all begins in the home and so we
    started taking some measures here and there. What we noticed was that
    in being environmentally conscious we were also saving money (nothing
    like reward to keep you doing something!).

    	It took a lot of initial planning (remember I was on maternity
    leave 6 weeks *before* Griffin was born so I had some time) and there
    are days that due to lack of planning we still "send out for pizza".
    But all in all, we have found that our entire household budget is a lot
    healthier because of this.

    	I realize that kids are going to cost money and that some people
    place their priorities on different things (one of my sisters does not
    *ever* let her kids wear second hand clothing) but we have not found
    this to deter from our lifestyle in fact, I rather enjoy providing
    (foods and items) for my family. I'm looking forward to when the boys
    can help out in this family activity. (a garden is planned for next
    year - going to start reading up on canning techniques now).

    	I agree with Stuart in that you should never become a slave to
    savings, if our activities cost me more in times of work and aggravation
    then they did in savings (money and enjoyment) you wouldn't find me
    doing too many of them.

    				Wendy

    Thought I'd shock you with some Swiss prices-  remember, I have two
    teenage boys.
    
    Food per week, 2 adults, 2 teenagers		$  200
    School per year (fees only)				$22000
    Clothing per year (bought mostly in US on trips)	$ 1000
       (that's just for the two boys)
    Shoes for boys, they need a new pair every 4 months $ 1000
      plus indoor gym shoes plus basketball court shoes
      ski boots, mountain boots, running shoes, spikes
      football shoes.  They are both into men's sizes.
    Bicycles (major transportation) a new one every	$  300
      five years, maintenance, insurance, cost per year
      for the two
    
    They each get a major gift (like a bike or walkman or whatever on their
    birthday and at Christmas plus smaller items that they often would have
    gotten anyway.  We do two vacations a year and maybe a few shorter
    trips.  One is the ski week in February and another is 2 to 5 weeks in
    summer.  There is approximately another $10000 per year in school costs
    for books, building funds, ski trips, sports fees, field trips (one
    week at beginning of school, optional trips during the year), music
    lessons ($500 per year alone), etc.
    
    We save in household expenses by buying whatever meat is on sale and
    that is our dinner, having sandwiches for school lunch and cooking at
    home.  We try to make major purchases like household appliances at the
    two sale periods allowed legally per year.  I am a expert at patching
    jeans.
    
    We never really tried to cut corners as long as I was working because
    that was too stressful.  I am able to do a lot more now that I am at
    home.
    
    Cheryl

>    home.  We try to make major purchases like household appliances at the
>    two sale periods allowed legally per year.  I am a expert at patching
		      ***************

Pardon ???  You mean that sales are not allowed by LAW ????

Strange country if you'll forgive me for saying!

Stuart

    How do these Swiss prices compare to US prices?
    
    Thank you, Cheryl, for replying with numbers for 2 teenage boys! I think
    this is more the issue. From what I see, babies can be relatively
    inexpensive. There are many things you can do to cut corners on
    necessities as Wendy has pointed out (I like your creativity :-) ) for
    babies. Using second hand clothes, using/washing your own cloth
    daipers, etc can add up to big savings.
    
    But, I'd like to hear from people about the cost of OLDER children. The
    NEW clothes, the NEW shoes/boots, the school trips, summer camp, swim
    lessons, movies, FOOD, *SCHOOL* (music lessons, sports fees, college, 
    books, etc). Looking back at the money my parents dished out for 3 
    children is incredible. Kids will want to do things and you will want 
    them to do these things, and you will have to have money for these things. 
    
    When children are babies, you can skip going out to eat and skip going
    out to the movies, and skip going out all together. But when children
    are older, they are going to want to do things. You will want to go out
    to eat as a family once in awhile. You will want to go to the movies
    once in awhile or to an amusement park, etc. These family activites are
    not free. They cost money. 
    
    It's also a question of quality of lifestyle. What do you want to show
    your kids? Do you want to be able to bring them on vacation and see
    other parts of the country/world? Do you want to have some fun
    together? 
    
    I think this is what people with young children (and planning more)
    should be thinking about not the cost of babies. Babies grow up and
    teenagers/young adults cost BIG bucks. Also, the parents, while supporting 
    their children and sending them to college, need to be saving for their 
    own retirement. 
    
    Just some things that I think about.
    
    Karen

	Karen,

	One thing we've done is refinance our mortgage to a 15 year
	mortgage.  The monthly payments are the same as they were for
	a 30 year mortgage, due to the drop in interest rates.

	We set up our SAVE plan years ago, so the weekly deduction isn't
	even noticed now.  Same with stock, which currently we roll over
	every buy period and invest the whole amount in an easily accessible
	account, to be used for absolute emergency's (ie. unemployment) or
	down-payment for a future home.

	Like Wendy, we're trying to do things now that will pay off in
	the future.  My husband used to ask me why I made all of Emily's
	baby food myself, figuring jars were easier, but the time it took
	was only moments longer than opening a jar, and I enjoyed doing it.
	On vacation last winter, we bought a few jars of food for convenience,
	and I found that I could make a whole week's worth of food for the 
	same price as one jar.

	Karen

    No one has mentioned the "opportunity costs," such as lost wages. 
    During the past almost-seven years since Caileigh was born, I have
    taken two unpaid leaves (following the paid leaves) equalling about
    six months, stayed home for an additional 15 months off after I quit 
    my job here at Digital (I contract now), and worked less than full-time 
    for most of the remaining time.  That doesn't take into consideration all 
    that "extra" time neither my husband nor I put in for "career growth" that 
    may have paid off financially.   
    
    And of course they're more than worth it!
    
    -Tracy
    
    

    In some respects, I think that we might have it easier having two boys
    (so far) dressing two boys even at the baby/toddler stage is far easier
    (on the budget) than dressing two girls.

    	We plan on having lots of family vacations, we live in New England
    and so you can bet we'll have skiers in our family. Ways that we are
    planning to prepare for this are:

    	We'll be looking into a camper for vacations, the cost savings in
    hotels would be incredible and I've always found campers and camping to
    be great fun. We'll plan many of our vacations to be "nature" outings
    that will include lots of hiking and nature classes. When they get
    older an outing down the Sacco River will be a great trip. We're
    looking into vacations where you stay in dorms at colleges.


    	Skiing? Boots will be new, (it's that used shoe thing) and
    equipment will probably be used. Hopefully the kids will enjoy cross
    country as well as downhill.

    	Regarding *new* clothing, I'm hoping that our kids will pick up on
    our use and reuse attitude and will not want (too much) designer
    clothing. (me - I'd rather wear a worn and soft sweatshirt anyday of
    the week) This of course may not be the case, as the allure may be too
    great. In those cases, we'll contribute to *some* of the cost and the
    kids will have to work for the additional cost. We're not trying to be
    stingy here but rather trying to install a sense of value, is that item
    really worth the extra effort and if so then go for it.

    	There are some areas we do not plan on skimping, safety equipment
    (bike helmets, protective wear) will be top notch. Shoes will be new
    for each kid (I just don't believe in passing on worn shoes).

    	We also will not skimp on education and activities, with luck we
    plan on our kids having music lessons, joining teams, and going to
    camps and other activities.

	Going to the movies? We don't even go to the movies, I just can't
    see spending that type of money for a movie, I'd rather rent a movie,
    make a large batch of popcorn and watch it at home (where there is a
    pause button for the bathroom).

    	I think a lot of it is just mindset, I don't feel deprived when I
    save money (or resources) by making things or getting things used.
    Hopefully our kids won't either.

    			Wendy

    
    Karen J. and Wendy certainly put me to shame - I have NO idea what
    I spend but would guess that I spend more *PER MONTH* on toys and
    clothes for Jason then you guys spend in a whole year!   Of course,
    I'm one of "those" mothers whose child has never worn a hand-me-down -
    well, except for a pair of winter boats that Jason got from a friend 
    of his babysitters last year - they were hard plastic and made the
    most awful (to me, wonderful to him) clomp, clomp sound when he walked.
    He loved 'em, so I gave in....
    
    cj/

    Wendy--
    
    How do you make your own wipes?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Janet
    

    Wendy, can you post your Tightwad Gazette book details (price,
    author, store) in the books note? I am interested.
    
    I must admit, many of the plans and ideas shared here I already
    try to implement, but there thing I do splurge on. While I still
    go for 10$ hair cuts (and often intermittantly cut my own mop) and
    try to cut coupons, I do have someone come in and clean the house
    once every two weeks. There was a lot of soul-searching that went
    on about this, but since cleaning for me fall under the catagory
    of things that are NOT fun to do in order to save money, I 
    decided to give myself the BIGGEST treat ever and hire these folks.
    They do in 1.5 hours what it takes me and Alan a whole weekend to
    cover.
    (And I'm helping the economy by employing someone 8-) 8-) )
    Alas, this is one of the big luxuries that would be cut out were
    one of us to stay home full time.
    
    Monica

    Here's my rather straightforward approach on this one, people have
    heard me say this several times here at work:
    
    	Uncle Sam gets 1/3 (taxes etc)
    	Daycare/babysitter gets 1/3
    	Then there's misc. gas, clothes for me, AJ, husband,
    	food for the house, cats, lunches for AJ at school, and me
    	(usually bought at the caf) that's 1/3...
    
    	Husband's income pays the mortgage, auto loan and household bills.
    
    
    	So what am I working for???   I know, I really have a NEED
    	to talk to ADULTS!!
    
        Thank heaven for grandparents!!
    
    	Lyn

	Of course, cj, you're a natural bargain hunter, too,
	and if it weren't for you, I'd have had to buy Emily a few
	more things than I have!

	;-)

	Karen

<                     <<< Note 564.18 by CNTROL::STOLICNY >>>
<I have NO idea what I spend but would guess that I spend more *PER MONTH* on 
<toys and clothes for Jason then you guys spend in a whole year!   

cj, I am *so* glad you said this!  I, too, spend tons of money on this kids!
Anytime we think about cutting back by making our own xxxx, we think about how
little time we have and usually don't worry about cutting back anymore. 

I have two sons, one is 5 years old and starting kindergarten next week.
The other is 10 months old but was born in a different season so the clothes
haven't been able to be handed down much.

Daycare is something like $150/wk for both the kids, but will soon by closer
to $170.  

Clothes we have bought mostly at garage sales, but now that Evan is into size
6, there just aren't many nice clothes for him there anymore.  Consequently,
he gets more new things than he did before.

Shoes are *always* new.  When Evan was little we got them at Wal-Mart since
we could get good, flexible shoes for $10.  Now we spend $30 at Stride-Rite.
Justin is so small that he wears shoes for 3-6 month olds, but he already walks,
so it's hard to find shoes that are not just for show.

Food...we eat or order out once a week or so.  Our food bill isn't too high,
though, I think.

Toys...I like to buy lots of toys.  :-)  Evan also gets $1.00/week allowance
and so he buys toys for himself, too.  I'm sure I spend at least $300/year
on both the boys for toys alone.

Goodies...Evan usually gets a candy bar or gum if he is with us when we get
gas, and each time he's with us for the grocery store then at the end of the
trip he gets to pick one item of his choice (which eliminates the "I want
everything" discussions).  

There's probably not much we cut back in.  Clothes and furniture from
garage sales, some toys from there, not many more sweets than we would be
buying anyway (I like sweets so there's often some around).  Some hand-me-down
clothes and lots of h-m-d toys for Justin.  Luckily, we can currently afford
this.

      Carol

    My father grew up during the depression, and brought the spartan depression
    mentality to my early upbringing.   He made our soda in the basement from
    inexpensive bulk flavorings and yeast and a home bottling machine.
    We saved every piece of waxed paper and aluminum foil.  We made our own
    milk, from bulk powdered condensed milk.  We saved every rubber band
    and paper clip.  When I needed new shoes, he hesitatingly handed me
    $10 and said to bring him change when I found some.  He worked crazy
    hours and always brought work home because of desire to be valuable to
    his employer.
    
    I loved and respected my father very much, and still do, but I 
    despise the thought of skimping on my own children and making them
    feel as economically powerless and as 'poor' as I felt, unless it comes 
    down to absolutely no choice.  I guess I probably go to the opposite
    extreme sometimes in compensation for how I felt, and wanting
    Ian and Nicky to feel like they can have the things they want without
    always having to search for the cheapest version of it.  I realize
    that's a useful economic survival skill, but I also think it has
    a psychological effect on their sense of well being in the world.
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    Todd,
    I don't think any of us are looking at such extreme methods of 
    managing our household finances UNLESS WE HAD TO. But in this
    age of recession and environmental awareness, we begin to realize
    that the "make do" attitudes of our parents/grandparents are good
    attitudes, and that we've spent too much time on wasting money 
    and resources. Time to strike a balance between making your own
    everything and splurging on everything new all the time. These
    are valuable lessons to our kids that they must not waste.
    Common sense. And everyone has a slightly different version of it.
    
    (Wendy, we now do by no-name bulk apple sauce in glass jars - the 
    jars either go into our recycle bin or get saved for canning.)
    
    Monica

    
    I'm impressed you all know what you spend.
    
    I have *no* idea where our money goes, what we get for it, whether
    we're missing out on anything, even if there is a pattern to our
    spending. Then kick in a fair bit of wages as call-in and beeper money,
    and its even more topsy-turvy.
    
    We swing from bouts of largesse, to weeks of no eating out and no
    buying anything.
    
    I think its time to bedget!
    
    Simon

    	WIPE FORMULA: (I think someone posted this elsewhere as well)

    	Take Bounty paper towels (we've tried other brands and they don't
    work as well - you can buy Bounty by the case at Walmart)

    	Cut the roll into thirds.

    	Rewind the rolls so that they fit into the wipe boxes  (about 10
         minutes for two rolls (6 thirds))
         (rewind the rolls on the carpet, it makes them behave better and
          always do it while watching TV, it doesn't seem like work then
          if you'd just be sitting anyway). About 1 1/2 of the paper towel
          third rolls will fit into one box.

    	Add a solution of:

    	       2 cups water
    	       1 TBS baby oil (generic, we tried the expensive stuff
                              and didn't like the smell)
    	       2 TBS baby shampoo (generic, ditto)

    	Sometimes you have to adjust the amount of solution to make sure
    that the wipes are not soaking but instead are merely wet.

    	 We started making these as an experiment with the understanding
    that if they didn't work out and if we didn't like them, we'd switch
    back. As it turns out, we like them so much (much better for cleaning
    up messes afterall that's what paper towels were designed for) that we
    have never gone back. In fact once, we had planned poorly and ran out
    and so had to use commercial wipes and both of us decided that our home
    version was much nicer.
    	 

	APPLE SAUCE:

    	Peel a bag of apples (again do this in front of the TV when you are
          watching something else) about 15 minutes.
    	
    	Core and quarter them

    	Put the quarters in a crock pot set at low, add a dash of lemon
    juice and a dash of cinnamon.

    	After about 8 hours (overnight) turn the crockpot off, stir the
    apples (which will be so tender that they will fall apart) and you have
    apple sauce. (Spencer loves this stuff and again, once you try this
    I dare you to go back to the store blah stuff).

    	We even put our zip lock bags through the washing machine in order
    to reuse them. (how's that for die hard?)
    
    	Monica, I'll have to post the book information from home. It really
    is filled with great ideas.

    				Wendy
    	

    
    .. more questions....
    
    You putyour Ziplocks thru the (clothes or dish?) washing machine? 
    Inside out, I guess?
    
    Good for you!
    

We have a 10 year old girl, 2 boys (3 and 20 months). Fortunately we
did some 401K savings in our 20s, but I'm not sure how we're going to 
hold it together saving for college and retirement. As previous noters 
indicated, the "fixed expenses" are the killers (house, insurances, TAXES,
cars...). 

With our commutes, we're both out of the house about 10 - 11 hrs/day. Then,
after processing babies and feeding, and dealing with the daily fire drill,
we don't seem to find the time to "plan". Hence, we are guilty of "dialing
for food" at least twice/week. 

We are also looking at a lifestyle change  because we barely see these beautiful
kids an hour/day. We feed our house and our town and the only one to see and
use it is the au pair! Everytime we're driving through the backroads 
somewhere "away from the city", we keep thinking... 

Anyway, here's what we're looking at for some of our pre-school and school 
age expenses:


Childcare and Summer Stuff
__________________________

Childcare (we have an au pair) = $ 1000/month (includes the placement fee,
45 hrs/week                                 car insurance, food, salary,& xtras)

3 Nights out/month childcare = $ 65/month


Daytime Summer camp last summer was $ 1200 (8 wks)

This Summer activities for 10 yr old = $ 150
( 5 wks swimming lessons, 3 wks of tennis lessons)


Sleepover camp - 2wks (1st time and maybe last :(  = $ 1200
                 wonderful place, but too much $)

Summer Youth Theater = $ 35  Not to mention your time - it's parent produced
                             - you bake 4 cakes
                             - monitor rehearsals
                             - stage crew, or sew costumes, or lights, or....


School Stuff
____________

Town now charges bus transport fee    $ 150/yr

Field Trips last year = $ 40

Ballet Lessons (includes costume costs and shoes)  $ 460/yr
2 Times/week

Soccer (fall and spring season)  $ 80

Group keyboard Lessons $ 160/semester (Now wants to take piano seriously
                                        @ $ 33/hour lesson)


Care and Feeding and other Kid Stuff
_____________________________________

Food and Diapers (3 adults, 3 kids) $ $100 wk

Memberships to Drumlin and Children Museum for babies  $ 70/yr

YMCA family membership = $ 600/yr

Shoes  - sneaks, cleats, shoes (ahhh!) - $ 320/yr

Clothes - mostly grammies and aunties. Our daughter is just becoming
         "fashionable", so she's going to have to convince grammy...

Toys & Books - grammies et al. But we still some  $ 300/yr

Bicycle (for 10yr old), bike seats (for babies), and 3 Helmets = $ 250

    Actually Todd,

    	It's because we want so very much for our kids that we are doing
    this. We own two rental properties as well as our house, that means
    that at any one time we have three mortgages. With our budget the way
    it was, this meant that if our renters skipped out we could potentially
    lose all of our property (we are not professional rent managers, we
    just couldn't sell our properties).

    	So we looked at where all of our money went, without getting into
    too much detail about personal finances, one of our biggest
    discoveries was food. We saw that we were spending about $500/month for
    food. Most of that was spent going to fast food places and buying food
    in the cafe.

    	With a few modifications (namely sitting down and figuring out a
    weekly menu and changing to buying bulk). We now spend about 30$ per
    week total and that includes three meals a day with snacks. Not only do
    we save about 400 a month but we are eating a lot better (more fresh
    veggies and less high fat fast food).

    	The 400 that we saved (each month remember) we applied to other
    bills. Other than the mortgages and one student loan we are debt free
    and this has just been since the beginning of the year. We also have
    built up a savings account that will cover the three mortgage payments
    for two months. Our long term goal is to pay off our house earlier than
    30 years and hopefully sell the other two condos. Our short term goal
    is to buy a mini van next summer (hopefully without a loan).

    	This is a *complete* turn-around from the way I was just last year
    where every Tuesday night was Toys_R_US night, and where I though 9.99
    was a good price for a sweatshirt for Spencer and where I thought it
    rather routine to rack up at least $100.00 on my American Express each
    month. (on what ? who cares, did it really matter?) I don't know what
    bit me so bad but Marc is not complaining!

    	We have big plans for our family and we are working now to make
    them come true.

    	Oh and I also reuse aluminum foil and Marc makes his own beer,
    mead, and will be making his own soda. I see it as being very
    resourceful and we love drinking and eating "our" food.

    				Wendy

    
    
    	The ziplocks go into the clothes washer (white wash) inside out.
    
    	Shake them out and hang them up to dry.
    
    	You can also wash them out by hand but we're pretty lazy and prefer
    to do it this way.
    
    	Do *not* put them into the dryer (unless you want lumps of clear
    plastic to make Christmas ornaments with ;-))
    
    				Wendy
                      

My mother always washed her plastic bags and hung them on the line to
dry.  I usually hand wash all my zip-lock bags, and just stick them in
the drainboard.

I can't believe you only spend $30 a week on food!  That's fantastic!  I
spend between $50-$100 a week on food for the us (me, hubby, 2-year-old
twins, and the sitter), and that doesn't include meat.  And I don't buy
any prepared items as I tend to make everything from scratch. And I bring
my lunch every day, as does my husband.  Even with triple and double coupons,
I don't know how I could get my grocery bill much lower.  I do buy a lot
of fresh fruits and vegetables, and my husband likes some cold cuts for
his lunch.  And food is one of those areas where I won't cut back on 
quality and can't cut back on quantity (my kids eat as much as me at their
meals -- where do they put it!), but I'd sure like to find a way to cut
it back.  I shop all the sales, and buy meat once every couple of months
when it's on sale and put it in the freezer.  I also make my own jam, and
do a lot of baking (especially handy for Christmas presents which everyone
just loves).  And I buy things like squash in bulk and cook enough all
at one shot to freeze for the season.  Same thing with apples for applesauce
as they're really cheap at the orchard across the street, and always fresh.

Any hints on how you keep your grocery bill down?

	Wendy,

	We started trying to go "debt-free" a few years ago.  Since then,	
	we've eliminated all of our debts except our home, which we
	don't really consider debt as long as it's value exceeds our
	mortgage.

	Luckily, my husband is *great* at living within our means (rather
	than beyond), and has no problem buckling down.  I had a lot to
	learn after my four years as a single engineer (making up for lost
	time after the "poverty" years of college).  As most of the debts
	were mine, my husband helped me (one by one) get rid of them, by
	sitting down with me and having me set a goal of when to pay them
	off by, how much I would need to pay extra to meet that goal, etc.

	It wasn't that I couldn't have done it on my own, but more that
	I just didn't.  When I paid off the first loan, I felt so good to
	have that off my back, that the next one came easier.  We've also
	now got a rule that it doesn't get charged if it can't be paid off
	when the bill comes in.

	To Carol and Carol,
	I only know what I spend because these items are budgeted in advance.
	There's only enough money in the checking account to cover mortgage,
	bills, groceries, etc.  All other monies go into savings accounts,
	where they make (meager) interest.  If I blow the budget, the
	mortgage doesn't get paid.  

	If there's a need or desire to purchase something special, it's a joint
	family discussion.

	We each have our own "discretionary" funds that we contribute to weekly.
	If I were to get the urge to "spend", as I'm sure I will as I need
	maternity clothes, it comes from here, and I couldn't tell you how
	much I spend per month, although it's usually a good portion of my
	"fund" ;-).  However, I also know that that's all I've got, so I've
	got to live within the limit of the cash coming in, and still afford
	gifts for hubby, friends, mom, etc.  I'm also willing at any time to
	reduce the weekly amount I get, if it were necessary for the family.
	We had to do this when I reduced my work hours, and it has not been
	a difficult adjustment.

	We enjoy dinners out once a week, plus breakfast every Sunday, BTW.

	Karen

    We are very bad at bugeting things.  But, I can tell you this it is
    very expensive to raise a teenager.  Ben is 13, and he only wants the
    clothes that all the other kids are wearing.  His sneakers go for
    around $85, but I get a 40% discount from Reebok from someone I know.
    So thats not too bad, but he does go through 2-3 pairs a year.  Then
    there are the cleats for baseball, and this year he tells me that he
    needs football cleats too (which are different from baseball cleats).
    We do go to yard sales, and flea markets.  But at his age you can't
    find too much in the used clothing dept.  I am always watching for
    sales, and he will too.  He will walk in a store and look at a pair of
    pants, shorts etc. to see how much it is and if its too expensive he
    will say oh forget it is too expensive.  I think it is much cheaper for
    clothes, and toys for a smaller child than it is as they get older. 
    So enjoy it while you can.
    
    Cheryl 
     

    I hope my comments didn't seem critical of anyone.  I was only
    trying to relate some difficult personal feelings on this subject.
    
    I appreciate that every parent does what they know is best for
    their children and I certainly appreciate and suffer anxiety over the 
    current economic climate and company situation.  
    
    I just wonder what
    the lasting effect of a constant atmosphere of thriftiness is on 
    children's view of the world.  I can't help feeling that my father's 
    depression upbringing not only improved his survivability under difficult 
    situations, but also limited his options and made him overly conservative 
    in other areas.  Perhaps he could have been more successful if he
    hadn't been so afraid of making investments or taking chances
    sometimes.   I don't know what the tradeoff is or where the balance point 
    is, or what to do about it.  I just observe the situation we find ourselves
    in with some sadness and remorse, that the cost of near-poverty is likely 
    even greater than we at first realize.  
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

I love this topic! Very timely (when isn't a money issue?) since I have just
recently become fed up with our "blind" spending and have sat down with a
master spreadsheet to try to first account for everything coming in and going
out before fully (hopefully) tightening the ship.  I think it's all a matter
of HABIT, and habits, as we know, are extrememly hard to change, but once one
becomes a *new* habit it is "easy".

I'm in the same boat as Wendy - a couple rental properties so mortgages out
the kazoo plus maintenance costs & renter "risk"... and I have also noticed
FOOD is one of our biggest "variable" expenses.  LUNCHES out (neither my office
nor my husband's has a cafeteria) is the biggest waste I see right now --
minimum $65/week) so time to get back into the habit of making lunches...

I'm basically a moderate when it comes to make vs. buy decisions - but will
usually pay a bit more for convenience and also like to have at least one
dinner out per week.  Perhaps this will change in a couple months when our
second child arrives (less feasible to "go out" and more incentive to save $$).
I will definitely give the recipes posted a trial - so far I've been one
who tears the wipes in half when possible to economize and waste less, but I'm
open to the idea of home-made...

I'm interested in what "tools" people find useful for zeroing in on the areas
that are black holes of spending and then the "tricks" of motivating oneself
from knowledge to *action*.  For instance, I know I spend too freely with a
credit card, but don't quite like the idea of cutting it up. Have any of
you been successful at the "leave it at home" approach or at other ways of
limiting the charges to budgeted amounts for specific purposes (i.e. gifts,
drug items, clothing)? 

We do recycle newspaper, glass, cans, cardboard, but this is more for the
environment than for any real savings to us. We do buy in bulk at the whole-
sale clubs but I really don't know a dollar amount this "saves" us per month.

The best way I can save money is to stay out of stores! Hahaha!  I've said
before that I can't afford NOT to work because I'd have too much time to shop.
And this is not on personal items, just household "stuff", gifts, toys...

Time to get ORGANIZED!

-Cori

    
    
    re .31
    
    >        You can also wash them out by hand but we're pretty lazy and
    >prefer to do it this way.
    
    	Lazy?  Wendy, I don't think so!  I'm getting tired just listening
    to the ways you - all of you - save money!
    
    	About the only think I do is clip coupons.  That can be a big
    savings, but it's such a pain.  My husband and I know we need to be
    better about, well, wasting money, but I just don't have the TIME or
    ENERGY.  In fact, I've probalby gotten worse about saving money since
    I've had a baby.  Convenience is now key. 
    
    Honestly, this note is a pretty good inspiration.  My husband will
    thank you!  
    
    	Justine  
    

    Wow, has this note generated a lot of interest!
    
    Regarding the two legal sales per year: each year ther are two sale
    periods, one in January and one in July.  Then the stores, during this
    three week period, may use the word "solde" or sale.  IT is a good time
    to invest in major appliances and designer clothes because they sell
    out last years models.  But they also truck in a lot of junk.
    
    During the rest of the year there are no large sales like you find in
    the US.  I do find things on "action", especially at the grocery store
    and then I stock up on what I use so I keep basement shelves full of
    toilet paper, washing up liquid, tomato cans, etc.  Each week some meat
    is on "action" at the shop and that is what we eat on the weekend. 
    Meat is expensive here ($10-$20 a pound) so I am trying to use less,
    also for health reasons.  I sometimes buy in quantity and freeze but I
    am not a big fan of the freezer.  I am not very good on freezer
    management and find out that I often have to throw out things that have
    been in there too long.  I try to use it for things I make in quantity
    but usually, since I am no longer working, I cook fresh.
    
    We started looking at our outflow when it looked like I might lose my
    job.  We don't budget per se but we track our expenses and use the
    figures to decide where we could save or if we can afford a major
    purchase.  
    
    I grew up as one of eight children in a fairly poor family and I don't
    intend to skimp unless I have to.  But neither do I waste and I get
    really angry with the children if they waste food or leave the milk out
    to spoil or whatever (or ruin a brand new pair of shoes, or being
    careless with their bikes :-)
    
    We are also fortunate that European salaries are based on one parent
    working so my salary mainly went into savings.  Life is cheaper for us,
    even with teenage boys, since I no longer pay child care.  That was
    REALLY expensive (I estimate $3500 per month, all things considered).
    
    We also have a different mortgage structure.  Basically, we build a
    house and then rent it from the bank.  If one gets close to paying off
    any part of a mortgage, you re-mortgage and invest elsewhere.  Our
    mortgage is for 100 years and the interest rate floats.  It is
    currently at 6% but has been as low as 4%  and as high as 8% in the 15
    years we've had the house.  Of course, a house costs $800,000 here.
    
    I must admit though, teenagers are really a lot more expensive than
    little ones.  We can buy their clothes in the US (the "in" T-shirts,
    etc.) and still get it a lot cheaper than here for no-name brands. 
    Dirk worked all year and saved all his pocket money to buy clothes this
    summer in the US.  We gave him money to buy what he normally would get 
    anyway and he had to use his money for special things.  Gifts get much
    more expensive.  Instead of wanting a Lego castle they want a stereo
    system.  If they want to go to cinema, they use their own pocket money. 
    And, Wendy, sometimes they'll choose to rent a video and watch it here
    but there is a socialisation around going to the cinema and running "by
    chance" into that girl you've got your eye on, etc.
    
    Regarding used shoes: Teenagers wear out shoes in anywhere from one day
    to three months :-)  No used shoes here!  However, for ski boots,
    mountain boots, etc. we pass them down.  We also try to buy them used
    and we resell everything when we can.  Many people with one child rent
    ski equipment.  That is definitely the cheapest way for one child but
    with two it is cheaper to buy new, use them for both kids and then
    sell.  We always buy new skis for safety reasons and because they are
    used longer and are pretty worn by the time we sell them.  I sell them
    through the school ski sale and then the school gets some of the money.
    
    This got much longer than I intended.  Sorry about that :-)
    
    Cheryl

>>Any hints on how you keep your grocery bill down?

We spend about $45 per week for two adults and an almost 6-year old.

We do it this way:

  - lots of fresh fruits and veggies, but only the ones that are in season
(no $2 per pound peaches in the winter).  We pick up packages on the 
"overripe" cart and making fruit salad from them.
  - very little meat, more poultry (when it's on sale)
  - milk (our most frequent purchase) is bought at the convenience store
on the way home from work, not at the grocery store.  This saves .50 per
gallon.
  - bread is bought at the bakery outlet store, usually in multiple loaves,
some of which are frozen for use later.
  - otherwise, we have no "standard list" - we buy whatever is on sale
at our local store each week, and make meals from that, whatever it is.
Of course, we like being flexible and unpredictable anyway.  This wouldn't
work for a "Monday is hamburger night, Tuesday is pork chop night, etc"
kind of family.
  - when non-perishable items go on sale, we stock up.
  - we use lots of coupons, but only when the item is on sale.
  - we buy store brands for many items

/bruce

    Just to elaborate a bit on my previous, and rather "flip" sounding
    comments.  
    
    I am an absolute bargain freak.  I have an attitude that if I can't get
    it on sale or reduced price, then it just doesn't get bought!  I am not
    too good to shop for things in the discount department stores, don't
    even have a problem with discount cosmetic jewelry, when I shop for
    Health and Beauty things, and most groceries I will in most cases buy
    the store or generic brand, unless we have previously tried it and
    decided it wasn't worth the savings i.e. poor quality.  My husband has
    acused me of spending more on gas in pursuit of a bargain, than it was
    worth.  I drove last year from my home in Central MA to a branch of a
    favorite clothes discount store for a dress, it was in Rhode Island
    near the Attleboro MA, Long Island area!  It was for a family wedding,
    and I liked the dress and the price!  (ok I'm wandering here)
    
    I grew up in a one income family, just the two of us girls.  I resent
    the memories of being told I had to like something because it was the
    least expensive.  I hate that memory, and won't do that to my son. 
    Ther is a fine line between bargain hunting, and being cheap.  If my
    son needs something, and it can't wait, then price will never be an
    obstacle.
    
    We gave up most of our credit cards several years ago.  It was a great
    move, since we were starting to have some serious credit problems.  We
    now carry only a single master card, actually my husband does, I carry
    only a couple minor store cards, but haven't used them in years.
    
    I adore going to the wholesale clubs, buying in bulk at reduced prices,
    and keeping these bargains in the freezer, or on the fridge.  I shop as
    much as possible by myself to eliminate the "pleeezzze mom" syndrome,
    and make it a point to do shopping early in the morning, sometimes
    early as 7 or 8 a.m. ( I have found a couple food store open 24 hours
    or at 6a.m.) great on weekdays during the winter it's like having a big
    fridge inside your car trunk.
    
    We do a lot of do it yourself repairs, we do our own carpentry even
    fixed our own cellar instead of hiring a carpenter.  Redoing the
    bathroom is our next do it yourself project.  As much as is possible we
    will buy car parts and do those ourselves too.
    
    Oh and I listen to my mother inlaw a lot. She has to be the world's
    best outlet shopper.  I don't know where she finds out about outlets,
    but she's got a ton of suggestions.  Oh and she always brings something
    back for the grandkids when she goes!  Oh and speaking of MIL, she is
    my own bargain source, she is great for mending clothes, fixing
    curtains, fixing zippers, and saving $$ occationallly in babysiting
    money.
    
    I will mentally go someplace, break down the price. if the total price
    seems out of line I don't go there.  Restaurants are a great example,
    I'm not too proud to order a McDonald's kids meal for me, it's the same
    cheeseburger, fries and drink as I'd get individually for a big price. 
    Or we do one of their "extra value meals" and just order an extra
    cheeseburger, splitting the huge drink and fries you get with the
    package.
    
    just some random thoughts.
    Lyn

    
    In regard to Wendy's first note, I believe the true cost in having 
    children is not the dollars it takes to educate, feed, shelter and
    clothe them, but the time it takes to raise your children, play with
    them and meet their emotional needs.  Once I felt that my lack of time
    would interfere with raising them as I feel I should, I would want to 
    stop having children.
    
    The answer to how much time is needed will no doubt be as varied as the
    responses here as to how much money it takes to raise them.  Some
    believe that they must provide for a college education, some believe
    that is not necessarily the parents responsibility.  Some believe their
    child doesn't need music lessons, trips to camp, dance and gym lessons,
    others feel it is necessary to allow them to experience any opportunity
    the child is interested in.  Some people are more resourceful than
    others and take the time to provide "expensive" things at the lowest
    possible cost.  These all depend on one's background, belief system, 
    and socio-economic class.  
    
    I think most everyone can "afford" to raise a child in the bare bones
    sense of providing the basic necessities, but the real issue is are 
    you willing and able to spend the time your child needs with its
    parent.  
    
    Sue

Actually, I think that .37 hit it on the nose.  The three commodities that 
you have are TIME, ENERGY, and MONEY.  Quite often, getting more of one, 
takes away from another.  For example, if both parent work, they have more 
money than if only one of them worked, but they have less time and energy.  
If one of them quits working, they have less money, but they have more time, 
and sometimes that time can be put to use (such as clipping coupons, shopping 
in three different grocery stores, less need to eat out of home, reduced 
daycare expenses).  And as another example, I find that I actually get less 
accomplished than when we both worked (my wife doesn't now); one of the 
reasons is that I have less energy.

Clay

    From reading these notes, I feel like we must be spending an Outrageous
    amount of money on my boys - and what's odd is I know that I spend
    thousands less than my sister does on her daughter!
    
    Expenses break out as follows for 2, ages 5 and 8; (and we'll be
    adding #3 to this in a few weeks!)
    
    Daycare/School:	$170.00/wk during summer, $175.00/wk school/daycare
    Karate;		  80.00/mo for both, 2/week
    Misc. activities	  20.00/mo (karate tests, field trips, school
    				    drives etc)
    Food (2 ad., 2 kid)   70.00/wk
    "Eat out"		  40.00/wk (incl McD's and cafeteria at work)
    Clothing		  10.00/wk average, family of 4
    Shoes		   4.00/wk average, family of 4
    Toys/Junk		 400.00/yr (incl b.days and Christmas)
    
    I buy a lot of the kids clothes at used-clothing stores, and a lot are
    hand-me downs from Chris to Jason.  Chris doesn't really get any hand
    me downs, as he's the oldest "child" in either family, so all his stuff
    is new.  As they get older, clothes get a lot more expensive.  Even
    something as simple as a fall jacket - IDENTICAL jackets, Jason's was
    from Jr. Boys, Chris' from regular boys, Chris' cost $2.00 more. 
    Sneakers are $2-5.00 more.  Pants are always a few dollars more, and
    there seems to be less variety/selection as they get older/bigger, so
    there's less opportunity to find "bargain" clothes.  There's a plethora
    of clearance racks for Jr. kids this time of year - virtually nothing
    for older kids.  How come??
    
    We don't need diaper wipes, but that gets replaced by lunch boxes and
    back packs and note pads and books.  They're not content to stack
    blocks anymore - they want to check out the latest videos or Nintendo
    or try a skate board.  Now they want swimming lessons, and Chris is
    hoping for guitar lessons.  He has the guitar, and a little talent -
    if we can "afford" it, how can we say no?  Swimming lessons is more of
    a water-safety issue with me than a "hobby", and is something I'd
    rather not skimp on.  We "eat out" a lot, or a stop for a coffee
    usually ends in a coffee and a soda or two and maybe even a donut. 
    They know that there are times when we HAVE to say No!, and they know
    what it means if I say I don't have any money with me (though they
    think the ATM and checks are a great idea!).  They understand that this
    bike/shirt/game might be too expensive, but there's also probably one
    that we CAN afford.
    
    I guess it always seemed to me, that as long as I could make ends meet,
    that it wasn't "too much" money to be spending on the kids.  They get
    an allowance if they help out, and they've bought things with their own
    money.  They DO look around for what, in their eyes, is the best value
    for their money, so something must be making it through to them about
    the value of a dollar.  
    
    For now, each boy costs roughly $175./wk.  The baby will cost about
    $120.00/wk extra (daycare, diapers, formula, Drs, baby-stuff, tylenol
    (-:).... the only real difference is because of their ages.  Formula
    and diapers are expensive, but not nearly as bad as the other
    activities that the other 2 want/need(?) to be involved in.  
    
    I don't know how Wendy does it because for $30.00/wk, I couldn't buy
    milk, coffee/tea, beverages, cereal and any type of meat - not to
    feed 4 people!
    
    But I'm definitely not moving to Switzerland! (-:
    
    Patty

    Patty,
    
    I love it!
    
    I read through your note thinking "what! only $80/month for two kids
    for karate!  I spend more than that for one!), etc. etc. etc.  And then
    I saw your last line.  Great.
    
    But we have other things.
    
    I will tell you a Swiss joke (the Swiss are NOT known for being funny
    :-)                   p.s. it has two punch lines
    
    God created the world and he looked around and saw that it was
    beautiful.  And to each people inhabiting the world he decided to grant
    three wishes.  Well, the arabs wanted oil and the Americans wanted
    national resources, etc. but when he got to the Swiss, thier wishes
    were very modest: mountains, alps (meadows), and cows.
    
    After the world was finished, God looked down and saw this jewel that
    the Swiss had created with their three modest wishes.  He decided to
    grant them a fourth wish.  So he appeared to a farmer (paysan) in a
    meadow (alp) and said, "Your country is so beautiful.  From nothing you
    have created so much, so I will grant you a further wish.  But first,
    may I please have a glass of fresh milk from one of your lovely cows?"
    
    So, the paysan takes his one legged stool, hurries over to the nearest
    cow, quickly expresses a glass of mile, and hands it to God.  God
    drinks it and says, "Delicious! Now, tell me, what is yourwish."
    
    The paysan looks at him and says, "First, please, may I have two francs
    for the milk?"
    
    2nd punch line: And the wish was to have Swiss banks :-)
    
    Cheryl

    This note really struck a chord with me.  I'm in the "Mom-has-to-work"
    category; my husband is self-employed and has no insurance, so I carry
    the benefits for the family.
    
    Day care runs us $220/week.
    Food -- well, it varies because we buy in bulk, stock up on paper
    products, health & beauty aids, etc.  I do notice that since I went
    back to my old habit of planning the menus two weeks at a time, we're
    not spending quite as much $$ and the end of the day is less of a
    headache.
    
    We are religious about brown-bagging it!  My weakneess is a Coke in the
    afternoon -- I should bring my own in from home and save!  
    
    We get pizza a couple of times a month (used to be every week, but I
    cut that out because it was getting too expensive), and eat out
    together as a family 3-4x/year, Mike and I go out alone about 6
    times/year.
    
    We quit buying beer/wine for the most part (hard to do when a nice
    package store is right across the street!).  Not only did we save
    money, we both lost about 5 pounds!!
    
    I have always bought the kids' clothes either on sale or at second-hand
    stories.  I've found that second hand stuff is harder to find for
    James, who is 5, than it is for Holly, who's only 2.  The older they
    get, the harder it is to buy second-hand clothes.  The second-hand
    shops are still OK for outerwear and party clothes, until they either
    hit their teens or get REAL fashion-conscious.
    
    We are trying to save, and indeed are in pretty good shape in that
    regard, in the sense that we have about 6 months' expenses in the bank. 
    The credit cards get paid off in full every month whether we want to do
    it or not.  I drive a 10-year-old car with nearly 170,000 miles on it.
    
    I do splurge ($20-$25) on getting a good haircut every 6 weeks, but then, I'm a
    hair klutz and if I tried to cut my own, I'd look like hell.  I do my
    own color, though (at 37, I'm too young to be gray!!!!).
    
    My problem is, I'd like to start investing, but all the mutual funds
    that I want to invest in want $2,500 up front, and if I took that money
    out of our savings, it would make a big, big dent in our "emergency"
    fund.  I also know that it will take a long, long time to replenish
    that money.  Does anyone know of any mutual funds, stock market funds,
    etc., that will start a new account with less than $1,000??
    
    I heard what Todd said about his dad being brought up in the
    Depression.  I was raised pretty much the same way.  I want to try to
    strike a balance.  Our kids do not get everything they want.  We don't
    live a lavish lifestyle by any means (my husband's teen-age nieces, who
    babysit for pocket money, have said that if they depended on us for
    babysitting jobs they'd be broke all the time!).  Yet denial strictly
    for the sake of denial isn't appealing, either....
    
    Having said all of the above, has anyone computed the cost of GUILT?
    :-)  I feel so awful when I haven't seen the kids all day, then find
    myself looking forward to their bedtime!!!
    

    re .46  Mutual funds
    
    20th Century mutual funds will allow you to open an account with a
    minimum $250 initial investment, subsequent investments are a minimum
    of $25.  The only gotcha to this is that if at the end of the calendar
    year your account balance is less than $1000 they charge a $10 service
    fee.
    
    They are a nice no-load (no purchase fee) mutual fund.  We have Sarah's
    college account in their ULTRA fund and it's doing very well.
    
    Also check out SUBWAY::MARKET_INVESTING
    
    Susan

there is a notes file for investing (subway::market_investing), or pick up
a copy of Kiplinger's Personal Finance Magazine this month.  The rate 1700
mutual funds, with minimum investment, and phone number information.  You
could also send me mail and I could hunt down a few that require no initial
amount, but you have to have automatic investment plan ($50 a month).

and boy can I relate to the food bill....we don't eat out at all...cut our
pizza to every other week....and my hobby is cooking....so our weekly bill is
high, but our "eat out" bill is zero...at least my "brown bag" is usually
tasty ;-)

Michael

    Sorry, didn't mean to rathole the discussion.  Thanx for the reply....
    
    Someone wrote in here about formula -- if you use either the powdered
    (which my kids despised) or the liquid concentrate, you will save
    megabucks over ready to feed.  Liquid concentrate (which you
    reconstitute with boiled water) costs about one-third as much as 
    RTF, the powdered formula costs even less -- plus it's easier to
    transport.  But my major rule of thumb is, if no one likes it, it's
    no bargain, no matter how little it costs.

Actually, I disagree about the ready-to-feed being
much more expensive.  I did a bunch of math and
found that the weekly difference between ready-to-feed
and powder was about $3 dollars.  (That was using
a 40 ounce/day estimate of use, which is the worst
case.)  I think "much more" may very well be a
relative term.

No question it is more expensive. however, I was willing
to pay $3 a week for the time savings.  And with two
kids demanding my attention, I never could remember if
I had just put in the 11th scoop or the 12th scoop.

I recommend going thru the math exercise, as it may well
be the grocery store pricing that accounts for the
difference of opinion.

Pat

    We used the powder formula.  I always mixed enough for a full days
    worth of feedings the night before.  This way it was "ready to feed"
    when the baby was ready to eat.  We stored it in the fridge in a
    pitcher.  My son didn't require extremely warm milk - we just nuked it
    for about 15 seconds to take the chill off.
    
    My sister, on the other hand, keeps a tupperware of formula in the
    diaper bag and adds water plus powder as needed.  She makes them as she
    goes along (we didn't because 6 years ago the formula clumped...I see
    that now it has been improved).
    
    -sandy
    

    There are some specific costs for raising children that are substantial
    and obvious -- day care til they go to school, college costs (savings
    for) or other school tuitions if you send them to private school.
    
    But most costs are marginal. We have 3 kids, and we spend maybe a
    few hundred dollars a year for toys and books, maybe the same for sports 
    or lessons or classes (this one is actually getting up there, but is a
    luxury we allow). Additional food costs are marginal (we probably spend 
    6,000/ yr on food, and we simply don't have the time to do a lot of
    efficient shopping or self-supplying, and it still isn't a big drain).
    
    The real expenses in life are pretty much the same with or without
    kids.
    
    Anyways, the delight they provide simply buries any financial
    considerations.
    
    Kit 

    I know this is an old topic but has great ideas. Anyone have new ideas
    for saving money.
    
    I try to buy in bulk and on sale. I have never bought diapers that were
    not on sale or I had coupons for. I buy a lot of Natasha's clothes
    at consignment shops or on sale. Groceries I stock up on meats, pasta,
    sauces and soups when they are on sale.
    
    Big expenses are mortgage and daycare. We are paying $170/week for
    daycare. 
    
    Lets hear some new ideas.